Street Fighter V got off to a shoddy start in the UK sales charts, and did similarly sucky in its home nation of Japan. However, we'd secretly been hoping that it would find its feet on the PlayStation Store, but that doesn't appear to be the case. In fact, the mechanically masterful brawler couldn't even break February's PlayStation 4 top twenty in Europe, while it squeezed into fifth place in North America. There's a small glimmer of hope, then, that the States may pick up the slack – but given how poorly it's done everywhere else, we're not exactly holding our breath.
It's not massively surprising, of course, considering the game lacks core features such as an arcade mode, but it is a shame to see a release with such fantastic fighting flounder like this. If that's not depressing enough, the massively overrated – by our very own Ben Tarrant, no less – Firewatch topped both the North American and European charts. We're kidding, of course – it's a brilliant result for Campo Santo, and we can't wait to see what it does next.
Elsewhere, Crash Bandicoot continued to prove that it's king of the PlayStation Classics in Europe, while the Grand Theft Auto games performed particularly well in North America. Elsewhere, Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth did brilliantly on the PlayStation Vita in both territories, while the well regarded Naruto Shippuden Ultimate Ninja Storm 4 fared similarly well on the PS4. A good month for not-so niche Japanese games, then. You can peruse the full list of winners through here and through here.
[source blog.us.playstation.com, via blog.eu.playstation.com]
Comments 80
Glad to hear Digimon Story did so well! It seems like a fantastic RPG from the few hours I've played, looking forward to really getting into it once I finally finish off Persona 4: Golden.
Not making the Top 20 in Europe is a disaster.
Not surprised , haven't bought a fighting game since the original Soul Caliber or was it called something else here in Europe ? , couldn't believe the fuss for this a couple of weeks ago , was it just because it was an exclusive that Sony and PlayStation fansites hyped it up , button bashing games died with PS1 in my eyes.
Such a shame, the gameplay is there, but this is what happens when you ignore about 75% of your potential customers (IE, us casuals). Don't launch early next time, we expect more from fighting games in 2016.
@MinerWilly
The genre is far from dead, Street Fighter 4 was a massive sales success, as was MK9, MKX, and Infamous. Games like mainline Tekken and DOA still do moderatly well, while Guilty Gear, etc, still have a hardcore niche following. Killer Instinct seems to be going very strong as well (otherwise Microsoft wouldn't have continously supported the game with new content for three years).
I do think this will hopefully have a decent tail, too. I can honestly see them launching a free-to-play version in a year or so.
I don't think the genre is finished, however it certainly is getting left behind by other much more popular genres and game franchises.
@sub12 Didn't know Infamous was a fighting game.
Considering that the game's steak in terms of content is supposed to be added later, I'm not surprised that it would do poorly early on when everyone says they'll wait till later. It doesn't help Street Fighter is rather, infamous for having constant revisions, meaning it's better to wait for the complete edition. Kinda same deal here.
I think only the most hardened players were tempted to pick it up straight away. Everyone else is waiting for the gameplay updates and the bugs to be ironed out. Perhaps they could learn from Mortal Kombat, as a more fully formed launch seemed to be received considerably better for them.
@get2sammyb @DerMeister
Infamous, Injustice, cats and dogs, aluminum and aluminium, same crap.
So yeah, I don't think that was Capcom's hope however, and there won't be another super or ultra version, although we will likely have a season 1 and season 2 complete version.
If they do free to play, as long as they take the DOA route (a full price retail model with a stripped down F2P version) vice the Namco Tekken / Soul Calibur horrible as $*! £ version, that's ok.
Cannot say i'm surprised, the lack of an Arcade Mode on release was a mistake but I guess time was an issue, despite that not being a good enough excuse.
Capcom seem to forget that a lot of their Streetfighter user base are those like me, who played their games on the Megadrive/Snes, I remember importing SF Zero 2 from Japan for my Saturn, such was my love for it back then, with couch play and a great arcade mode making for long sessions, hell I can even do that with Ultra SF4 on my PS4 now.
The impersonal aspect of online play has killed fighters for a lot of people, including me.
Playing mates even on SF4 is rare, as hardly anyone I know bothers with it and there's only so many drubbings I can take from superior players before I cant be arsed to play, (losing isnt always fun and sometimes I just wanna play for fun)
I appreciate all things move on and maybe this genre just isn't for me any more, after over twenty years of enjoying their beat'em ups, but its a shame that the fundamental basics (Arcade mode) have been stripped away, it only encourages full time players and dissuades more casual and fun players from bothering...
Hopefully their announcement next week or whenever, will at least address that.
Shame really...
Didn't know it lacks an Arcade mode. That and server issues? Rough launch. Figured they would've learned from Driveclub by now. People can't keep launching broken/incomplete games and expect gamers to keep buying them. Sigh...
SFV has just been released and I've already seen two articles here saying that it has flopped. It has already sold half a million on PS4 even before the one player modes update.
This is the revenge of R mika's buttslap SFV will be cursed until it's uncensored, get spooked and all that.
Wow. Seems like everybody I know is playing it. I am in the US though
We're kidding, of course – it's a brilliant result for Campo Santo, and we can't wait to see what it does next.
lol. looks like the editor had to step in to help save face.
but I'm not surprised. I hear people talking about how disappointed they are about SFV all the time (some small hyperbole there). I have two friends who are die hard fighting game fans and they say they're going to boycott SF. I've even heard employees at stores try to talk people out of buying the game. People are really upset about this.
I still have free DOA MKX Injustice and a bunch of fighting games on my Vita, I'm in no rush to bother picking this up full price.
"it is a shame to see a release with such fantastic fighting flounder like this"
Maybe if they released an actual GAME to enjoy that fantastic fighting IN, it wouldn't be floundering.
All those people who said, "Single player content doesn't matter; Who cares about a story mode anyways; this was released for the hardcore players that keep the franchise alive"... Um, ya. Clearly it matters. Clearly, plenty of gamers care about competent story modes and arcade modes.
But hey, the hardcore players are all that matter- they can keep the franchise alive all on their own, right? (Better buy about 10 copies each at this rate)
i LOVE it lol
I went from planning on picking up SF day one to not buying it at all. I'm a single player at heart and they ignored SP fans.
Damn, that's a shame. Hopefully SFV gains ground as they add more features & characters over the next few months. The gameplay and visuals really are great.
@JaxonH I do agree. It's a great game that I actually want to play more of, but there's nothing to really do if you don't fancy multiplayer. Great shame.
What a disaster. Should have delayed it and marketed it better and none of this early access crap.
@Bliquid
And if that day ever comes, I will be playing the heck out of it, singing its praises.
Until then, it can continue collecting dust on the shelf where it belongs. Because right now, it's a dissapointing flop and rightfully ignored.
Maybe if they add open world rpg elements it will do better. I hear they test well. You could climb a building to challenge everyone in an area, then explore and find all the street fights marked on your mini map.
/eyeroll.
I remember people saying that SF5 being a exclusive for the PS4 was huge... Welp
Not surprised and don't feel bad. This is what happens when you screw over casual fans and release the game before its ready. This is your punishment.
@JaxonH I legitimately don't know why someone would think this was for hardcores only, the impression I got was that SFV was trying to get casual players hardcore. It's why the fighting was made simpler.
@JaxonH I couldn't agree more. I'd choose a game with single player (CODs, GTAs, Injustice, Mortal kombat) over pure multiplayer anyday (Evolve, BF star wars, LoL) cos basically I'm getting rubbish on multiplayer as I get older. I want to enjoy my time in a world's lore not just fight frantically. If next Tekken or Soul Calibur include decent story modes my wallet rings kaching! No single player story - no kaching! Oh and bring back independent endings in SF and collectables like mini characters on 3DS version.
Yeah it did....
@Bliquid
I don't hate this game, or have any unfair grudge against it. I LOVE Street Fighter, and WANT it to succeed.
But not like this.
I am sure it will do better in a few months once everything else is added.
it's a great game and I enjoy it a lot, but it's just missing content. Honestly, fighting games need a good content of online and offline play. Single player should have more modes. I'm not saying a big deep story mode, but give the players more options like arcade, trials, time attack, and maybe something like a World Tour mode. King of Fighters 13 had a good content for single player modes. Speaking of KOF, KOF 14 is getting flaked on for have bad graphics but if SNK takes notes from this SFV criticism and adds in a nice amount of modes along with its 50 playable characters(non DLC) it could turn out to be a great game. Anyways, Street Fighter V is still a great game and I've put in a good amount of online matches(mostly casual). Hopefully it will sell much better when more modes are added in.
@Bliquid
I hate people judging games on hearsay also, especially games unreleased or games people have no intention of buying anyways. Thing is I did buy this game- day one. If I didn't, I really wouldn't be upset. Disappointed, sure, but not upset.
And therein lies the rub. Capcom sold this game to me and everyone else, not just tournament players, knowing the content would not be adequate for me and others. Had they launched it digital only on PSN, labeled it "Tournament Edition" and maybe even cut the price for those that were still buying it, hey no problem. But they sold it to all of us, knowing it wasn't kosher but with the minority hardcore players. I popped in the game expecting to get down like I did when Street Fighter IV launched with 3DS... I'm sure you can imagine my disappointment when I discovered all the modes I usually play are limited or missing.
this game has nothing good yet. It needs to be updated badly. I think I'll play super street fighter 2 on my wifi u instead. That has more features. My copy of five is collecting dust.
@shonenjump86
I think sometimes I'm the only person excited for KOF 14, but, I've always had a soft spot for the KOF series, it's a great alternative to Street Fighter without feeling that foreign (it's much more comparable than a netherealm or ark systems title). Anyways, the graphics are improving but are still rather poor, however, the actual fighting looks very smooth and some of the guys who headed SF4 development at dimps are now leading this one up, so I'm staying optimistic.
@get2sammyb
"I do think this will hopefully have a decent tail, too. I can honestly see them launching a free-to-play version in a year or so."
I've already said they would most certainly go f2p and although they did hope for more succes out of the gate, going f2p was Capcom's plan all along. I have it on good authority that they initially planned a roll out much like Killer Instinct has, which makes sense given their planned monthly updates, but somewhere along the way they figured: "why go f2p right away, when we can let the fools/ fans pay $60 upfront and have a year worth of season passes?". They'll easily make more this way and after 2 years (first comes the inevitable $60 Complete Edition with $40 season 2 pass) they'll go f2p when the PS4 has sold 65 - 75 million with the excuse that they "want to open up the game for all". They'll give the fools/ fans some costumes and a free Blanka which nobody wants while Ono explains it in a video while waving his stupid doll and smiling: "everyone free Blanka yeah?! We no charge you money, cause we good peoples... but we could! We could sell you, no?!"* and everyone will be upset for 2 weeks but will realize soon enough that Ono has got our cojones in a tight grip.
*my apologies for this one. I wish I could say it was uncalled for though.
@sub12
I'm looking forward to KOF 14. I remember when KOF 12 came out and it had new graphics from its older games, but it sucked IMO. Online was laggey, not enough characters and modes. SNK really improved with 13, and I hope the same continues with 14.
Cybersleuth is so good! I'm very happy to see selling and we may get more digimon games in the west! YEAH!
About SFV, I think that will sell with time, I'll buy sometime down the line when the game is more close to be complete.
The game may be amazing, but the approach used by Capcom, is very bad, Battlefront is equally bad, but it's a Star Wars game so people will buy.
And aside Smash Bros and MK (MKX was awful by the way) Fighting games are dying.
@Mega-Gazz i know you're joking, but you made me think of street fighter with the nemesis system. how awesome would that be!?
They made a call to release an incompleted game. An payed the price. I am guessing they are hoping for a slow burn on sales in the future. I think they made a big mistake..they should have delayed.
I think the casual audience is a lot more informed these days. Following releases of mainstream games like Star Wars BF and BO3 (PS3 version) which essentially only feature online components, rising costs and incomplete games people look into the games they buy more than ever.
I do think Street Fighter will be around for a while and will do well when its all said and done, but SF without Arcade is like Need for Speed without split screen...oh wait
Glad to see Digimon do so well, I feared NA would let us down
This should be celebrated! Fire watch doing well because it's a charming well made game While street fighter fails because it's a lazy game living off the past. I'm sick to death of lazy developers who just us take advantage of a franchise expecting us all to pay for stuff.
Language -Tasuki-
😂😂 how can anyone say fighting games are dying!! Smash didn't do to badly on a very poor selling console.
I think these games are more of a niche now then they were back in the day. Combine that with having to take the delivery and quality of most of the content on good faith then I am not surprised it has not sold as well.
I think this is a lesson of not meeting arbitrary deadlines over consumers expectations. Shame though, let's hope it does have legs.
This is both good and bad.
It's good for games because it means this trend of getting less and less content in games with promises of free content will slowdown/stop. If Street Fighter can't pull it off its a risk.
Its bad because I actually love Street Fighter and don't won't to see this be its end BUT I would not buy an FPS with amazing mechanics and balance for full retail price if it only came with team death match and a training mission so why should I put up with that from street fighter
@sub12 Nah, I'm looking forward to KOF 14 myself. The game seems to be shaping up pretty nicely, gameplay wise. Although I was always kind of bad at SNK games, with Garou: Mark of the Wolves being the only exception.
I'm more of an online player, but I would honestly love to have a world tour mode. Hopefully they add it in the future.
Hahahaha. Capcom, I read your financial report and your money men have messed up big time. Your turning your franchises into a joke and like Konami will only have Monster Hunter and Resident Evil left. Its hilarious and I hope you fail. Terrible company, which used to be the envy of the world.
The shame of this whole thing is this is a game that should've been an easy 90/100 on metacritic, great feedback from players, and a smash hit right out of the gate with a long tail, IF, it does infact end up being the only SF this gen. But Capcom, as it does routinely these days, f'ed it up. And there will be those who want to excuse the idiotic decision making, just like they excuse patches and other sh*t then blame the publishers for developers not being able to hit their deadlines. As a writer, I it's tough for me to have too much sympathy for people who work on deadlines. If I miss mine, or get an article done but do a really sh*t job, there's trouble. This may be a different field but same thing applies, hit the deadlines and do a good job. However, there's a reason Capcom, which has made some of the legendary games in this industry, is looked at as a joke these day and why it needs to keep taking handouts. It's a shame. The gameplay is all there is this game but as usual there's little stupid stuff that could've easily been handled differently that would've changed things and we'd be looking at an instant classic.
Why do people want F2P and still want retail releases make up your mind. Yeah DOA is so cheap everything costs money costumes and characters.... You pay the game 5 times over if you get everything.
so Capcom released Street Fighter V with the only main mode available at launch being online multiplayer with the rest of the game coming later in free "updates" and it bombed, well there's a shocker
maybe you should release a complete game next time Capcom? i think people would rather wait for the complete experience rather than pay full price for a bare bones game
splitting a game into parts can work for some franchises but those parts have got to have substance, it has to have something people can keep coming back too while they wait for the other bits and SFV just doesn't have them
@Flaming_Kaiser
I think he was just bringing up pricing models, but yes, F2P leaves a bad taste in my mouth, look what Namco did with Tekken and Soul Calibur instead of working on full fledged sequels. It was a joke.
TBH though, I'm pretty sure the DOA5 model is more of a glorified demo, you get a small roster and it just let's you wet your mouth a bit, which isn't a bad thing.
PSone Classics in Europe? What PSONE classics? Still waiting for Megaman so I don't have to buy a physical copy
They only wanted ya money.
While the prices stay inflated on the EU PSN store I will not buy off them. Why should I pay premium prices for digital titles when they have less value than a physical copy. As for the game I think its hard for any game to recover if it has the bad start that the game has had.
@dryrain Driveclub did.
@adf86
I do think that Evolution honestly regretted / felt bad about the luanch. I'm pretty sure they had at one time planned to charge for all of the first years DLC (which was a ton), but instead they gave most of it away for free.
Capcom, they can be pretty slimy however.
It won't effect Capcom in the long run, this is not a game that is designed to be a one and done, with Super Street Fighter V on the horizon, its value will hold unlike previous iterations. Welcome to the long form sales platform that has been working on PC for years, release sales don't mean nearly as much as they used to.
@Grawlog @Warruz
The whole point of SFV was not to have a super or ultra version, instead you'll buy the base game and it will get updated over the course of two years via DLC either paid for or grinded out via free in game currency. Will we probably see some kind of retail version with all of the DC? I dunno, but Capcom themselves have publicly stated that 5 will not have multiple iterations like every mainline SF series before it.
I really don't understand the Capcom defenders either.....
@sub12 Thats my point, its initial sales matter less as its design is on making a platform and less of a single game. Just look at Smash Bros. or Killer Instinct's design, they have devalued very little over the course of their existence for this very reason. They don't need high sales up front, they need continues sales throughout.
@Warruz
Upfront sales still matter a great deal, as does inital reception and reputation, the latter is something that Capcom needs to work on. Just because a game is selling itself as a long term platform, it doesn't automatically grant success, nor should is it's initial lack of content be swept under the rug. Compared to Driveclub and Destiny at launch, SFV is much more sparse.
@Grawlog Tomb Raider was seen differently because everyone knew that it was BS on Microsoft's part where they were trying to make it look like it was an exclusive when everyone knew better. In the end they shot themselves in the foot anyway by letting the game go out to die which was another reason why they were criticized.
@sub12 I don't deny that Capcom have done some shady stuff. I think the developers were placed in a difficult position where they had to deliver a more "accessible fighting game" in less then two years and be out in time for the pro tours. It's frustrating because they could have avoided it so easily by sticking a portion of it on open beta till March at the earliest. I'm satisfied enough getting it day one because I enjoy playing but of course that's not going to be the same for everyone. I just hope Capcom stick to their content plan regardless of sales (though I get the impression that there quite content about it) because the last thing we need is a Mortal Kombat X on PC situation where they drop support.
@sub12 Their value is upfront is ever shrinking, there are actually several scenarios were it would be more beneficial to have less sales upfront to gain more sales throughout. Most center around keeping a consistent interest rather then a spike at the front that eventually dies out, Halo 5 I would argue does this wonderfully and is a good example. While its single player was "meh", its game mechanics were stellar, and over the past months has continued to add new modes,maps etc. This has kept a continued interest and thus more potential for REQ pack purchases. However by providing everything or large enough content upfront, what you end up with is that big spike, but a much lower places in terms of where sales even out to, resulting in less potential for DLC purchases, because if people are done with the game, there is no potential purchase from them.
This same idea can very easily be applied to Street Fighter V and most likely is with this release state.
Yeah, this went from a day-one buy to "maybe one day" for me, all in the back of no arcade mode. Hopefully Capcom get their stuff together.
@Warruz
That's true, but your still appealing mostly to the hardcore, your not going to get Mortal Kombat X sales numbers with that kind of strategy. I fear SF's relevance will continue to fade if Capcom continues to screw up.......you would have thought they would have learned a lesson with how badly received Street Fighter X Tekken was.
@Flaming_Kaiser
Not if people buy the game. (^_^ )/ DoA (physical) is only about 20 bucks in stores right now. You get a ton of characters, story mode (which is pretty long), and a pretty good amount of unlockable costumes, as well as online multiplayer. All for about 20 bucks (or 60 if you bought it when it first came out)
But if hardcore tournament players only care about the online multiplayer, they can download the game for free, spend maybe 3 dollars to get their favorite character, and then play online forever and ever and ever.
That's what Capcom should have done. Release online multiplayer for free, with maybe 4 characters, and the option to buy more, all in time for that tournament they wanted. Then later on release the full game, with all the characters, the story mode, the arcade mode, the training modes, the mission modes, etc etc. for 59.99.
also, costumes are extras. You can spend hundreds of dollars, or none. It's up to you, but whatever you choose, it won't affect the core gameplay.
I pay attention to gaming media (especially this site. It's the only one I spew misguided diatribes on) and the launch of SFV confused the hell out of me.
First it was a new SF. Great. Then it was extra characters. Then season passes. Then fight money. Then the lack of modes at launch, and it just got to the point where I'm paying 40 quid for a game and I'm unsure what is included and what will be DLC.
Now I used to love the series, and I take no joy in saying this, but I am really happy it died on its arse. Hopefully AAA publishers will think twice about launching a game piecemeal. I'm playing about 3 indies to each AAA title now, and I'd say I'm enjoying them just as much, purely because I know what I'm buying,
It actually did better than SFIV in Japan when you consider how many PS4s there are compared to PS3s. It sold several times the amount that SFIV did per console.
@Johnnycide The most played game in the world was released in the same kind of way, though, albeit without an upfront charge. League of Legends has had dozens and dozens of characters added - all of which cost either real money or in-game currency earned by playing - as well as the core gameplay changed by years of frequent patches.
Another insanely popular game is Hearthstone, and that also has new cards released every few months that cost either real money or in-game currency. Entire modes were added to the game years after its release. Another of the most successful games of all times, World of Warcraft, is on its 6th expansion and has had new races, regions and classes added - as well as massive changes made to every element of the game. Take any year that WoW has existed and its had totally different features than the previous year.
All of those games (plus many more) have been released like piecemeal and have real money/in-game money purchases throughout, and are some of the most successful games of all time. I don't actually think that's the problem, I think it's the genre itself. It died before and was brought back by SFIV. It's since faded away again and it looks like this is a case of lightning not striking twice. Of course, it's also a problem that the PS4 isn't doing as well as the PS3 in Japan.
@ricklongo Arcade mode is just playing against bots. You could just go into training and turn the AI on. It's the same thing.
Another comment incoming. According to VGChartz, SFV is actually the top selling game globally with almost double the sales of the game in the #2 slot.
Digimon as the number one Vita download for both NA and Europe is very nice thing to see. Have put about 42 hours in and loving it as I'm only about 2/3 of the way through it. Hoping Bandai Namco announces localization of the next one soon based off these numbers with a physical release as well.
Got to say I am kind of glad to hear Street fighter has flopped a bit because it sends a message to capcom that the fans want more fleshed out games.
After how good the single player content was on mk9 I expected more from this
I grew up with SF, SF2 was the one game that attracted me to the genre, and it was like a dream come true when I could play it on my SNES
Im a huge fighting game fan since then, and I love SF and played almost every entry, from the early SF2, to the Turbo and Super, Alpha, 3 and 4
BUT - this 5th one, is ... sorry, I dont even find words for it
Its a shame, and it makes me sad, to see what happened to one of my most beloved franchises
Im gonna skip it for now, until some day it may be "finished" and way cheaper
I really hope that every major person that was involved in the games development/release has learned a major lesson now
This is not what a franchise like Street Fighter nor any fighting game fan in general deserves
Until they patched and fixed the hell out of this and the price drops insanely low, I simply wont buy it
I dont want to give credit to a company like that
And - sorry - but the re-re-re-re-rerelease of the ResidentEvils from the past and the "umbrella corps"-game noone ever wanted just put even more salt in my open wound - oh Capcom, once my number one studio, what has happened to you ...
I adore Street Fighter, always have. But for me to buy into it as this 'incomplete' stage, I'd have to have some killer hook to draw me in, and I'm just not seeing it yet. I'm only just starting with Persona 4 Arena and Smash Bros Brawl so honestly I can't see myself taking a look at SF5 until at least after the summer. I'll buy it eventually and I'm sure I'll really enjoy it, but there's nothing about the game that's making me feel the need to rush.
@JoeBlogs @Matroska Aside from that, there's a matter of feel. Sure, you could just manually select fighters to play against, one after another, but it's simply not the same thing. I fell in love with Street Fighter II by playing in arcades, seeing how far I could get, longing to see the ending for more and more characters. Without an actual arcade mode, there's much less sense of immersion for a campaign.
@Bliquid yep I agree with you the gaming mechanics in SFV are spot on. But! imagine if it did have a proper story mode (like injustice, Mortal kombat X), different endings, collectables, zombie mode (just kidding!) see how much more appealing SFV could become? Another 2 months spent on adding these things and I'm guessing Capcom (or greedcom/lightweightcom as I'm gonna start calling them) could have had a much more interested consumer base. Maybe x3 as many gamers would had bought it? More bucks = bigger safety net for any company. eg. me and a few mates love SFV but the lack of story and game modes just couldn't justify the price. There! Greedcom has lost 4 potential buyers already! We buy cos of the lore in a game not just cos it's a decent fighter. I wanna know more about Ryu, Chin Li etc. I wanna see SF lore evolve. I wanna know 'who', 'why' or 'what' they are fighting for! Who's the evil mastermind this time etc. If they are desparate for dlc cash. Add new characters with their own story mode, new soundtrack, skins and a new area related to the new chapter. Charge £4. I'd be happy with that fair amount of work and effort.
This Streetfighter plays alright just doesn't feel like street fighter honestly though. SF4 had the right idea but they left that behind for graphics that look alittle better then the previous and now the game has become all about frames!
@Matroska Heh, the same thing except a final boss.
Why didn't they release a Capcom cup edition for $30?
I spent 60 bucks for this crap. Capcom please update it already. I'm ready to sell this crap
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