Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice erases your progress if you let the rot scaling the protagonist’s arm reach her mind. Or does it? I’m not going to get into the specifics of this system because Ninja Theory kindly asked me not to spoil it at all, but it does raise a wider question about games and how they can subvert expectations in order to achieve their aims.
In the case of the abovementioned Celtic adventure, every mechanic is designed to reflect its key theme: psychosis and mental health. As I stated in my review, the camera is kept uncharacteristically close for the genre, creating a sense of claustrophobia. When enemies spawn behind you, it’s hard to track them, creating stress.
The voices that the dreadlocked heroine hears sometimes alert you to danger, but aren’t always reliable. And on top of all of that, there’s the lingering threat of permadeath: will your next mistake end your game – or (like the lead character) are you merely fearing something that doesn’t really exist? I’ll let you discover that.
There’s been a bit of a backlash to Hellblade’s save system – but isn’t this an example of the medium being used effectively? I’ve always maintained that, for as much as I love games, there’s so much more that could be done with them. And while I personally don’t have the imagination to realise the medium’s potential myself, my stance is always affirmed when I see examples like this.
I was definitely sweating playing during my playthrough of Senua’s Sacrifice – review deadlines and lost progress should never collide. But as I look back on my run through the campaign I realise how clever this system is: I feared the unknown just like the protagonist in the story. There is no other form of entertainment that can trigger this kind of reaction.
And it’s not just Hellblade that’s proved the power of games through the subversion of rules. Sticking with save systems, the infamous ink ribbon in Resident Evil reflects resource management. But there are also things like the Psycho Mantis boss battle in Metal Gear Solid or the conclusion to NieR Automata – game mechanics looked at through a different lens to instigate a response.
So I don’t think this should be discouraged: it’s what makes games special. If you’re planning to pick up Hellblade today then by all means worry, panic, fret, and fear for your progress each time you fail – but don’t wish the mechanic away. All of those emotions are intrinsically linked to the title's story, and we should celebrate it when games leverage their unique attributes to elicit a deeper emotional response.
What do you make of Hellblade’s permadeath mechanic? Should games adhere to a strict set of rules, or do you think these expectations exist to be altered? Lose all of your progress in the comments section below.
Comments 69
it has Permadeath?
oh well i give it a miss then, i HATE permadeath in games, i play games to have fun not to have to redo everything again because i make a mistake
@FullbringIchigo "Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice erases your progress if you let the rot scaling the protagonist’s arm reach her mind. Or does it?"
@FullbringIchigo Thanks for reading the article.
@get2sammyb i did as you said "The voices that the dreadlocked heroine hears sometimes alert you to danger, but aren’t always reliable. And on top of all of that, there’s the lingering threat of permadeath: will your next mistake end your game – or (like the lead character) are you merely fearing something that doesn’t really exist?"
even if it doesn't i just don't like that kind of game play mechanic
@ShogunRok honestly as long a the threat is there real or not i won't be able to enjoy playing the game, that's not my bag
@FullbringIchigo Fair enough, just making sure!
First and foremost: a game should be fun.
A game can also be art, but if it isn't fun it fails as a game. That will always be my stance on video games. That being said I think some enjoyable tension, immersion, and difficulty can add to the satisfaction and fun to be had in a game. Video games also benefit from being able to tell a story and present characters like no other form of entertainment. However, as I've said, if isn't fun there is no point to it.
I think I want to pick this up, but I'll probably get it on Steam first and refund it to see if I'll like it. Then get it on PS4.
It looks pretty great and unique, but if it isn't fun then it isn't worth spending time or money on.
No spoiling if obviously but did you actually reach that point during your review? Do you have first hand experience of what happens if the rot does reach Senua's head?
@Constable_What "First and foremost: a game should be fun."
Should it?
@Gatatog Yes, but I can't clarify without ruining it.
@get2sammyb Yeah? Of course it should. 😂
What kind of question is that?
Permadeath & no manual save= a stressful time.
I'm currently at 3 deaths. Should the rot ever get too close to me I'm bumping the difficulty right down. I'm the master of my own mind video game!
I do like it though. I like having the voices be the eyes on the back of my head.
@Constable_What So does this apply to all mediums? Films must be fun to watch? What about Schindler's List — I didn't particularly enjoy that. All books must be fun? I wouldn't say I particularly enjoyed reading The Catcher in the Rye. Or The Road. Or 1984.
Or is it just games that must be fun?
@Constable_What Tell that to people who raid 4 days a week on World of Warcraft
I'm usually not keen on permadeath, but it's implementation sounds fine for this game. Just as long as the difficulty isn't so high that it becomes a pain, I'll be okay with it this time.
Completely agree with you here, Sammy. New ways of subverting systems always appeal to me, not just in games but also writing, film, art etc. Without those attempts, even if they fail, these mediums will just stagnate.
Another great example of this was Eternal Darkness' sanity system. Worked to superb effect within the context of the game.
People just like to find something to complain about.
We all do it from time to time but this doesn't bother me at all, if anything it adds to the challenge and I like that
@get2sammyb Games are meant to be fun. If they aren't it goes against its literal definition of a game. It's why I don't consider Telltale or Quantic Dream "games" games. I consider them interactive experiences more akin to a movie or a TV show.
My opinion on games is that they should be fun. I think the fact that you're dissecting my comment tells me that you think the game isn't particularly fun, but meaningful and satisfying. I think you love what it means for games as a medium. But I don't think you think it's fun.
Do you think it's fun? Because I wasn't sure from your review, and I am not sure now. I may have misunderstood your review; I must admit I am tired and getting ready for bed. Any clarification would be helpful for me because I want to purchase it, but I want to know if it'll be a fun game. I don't think it is. I think I'll probably enjoy it like I enjoyed Life is Strange. Like more of an experience and less of a game.
TL;DR So I think my main question is: is it frustrating to play?
@Gatatog It's satisfying for them though. I bet they get a rush when they clear them the first couple times! I think maybe after its more compulsion and interacting and socializing with clan mates. Some pretty cool people play WoW. It could be fun running raid groups with people you know and like! That's why I did it in Destiny for 300 hours. The game wasn't exactly fun, but the friends were.
In all fairness MMOs and Single-player experiences/games don't really correlate. They're completely different.
This should have been announced before the game release.
This will most likely put a lot of players off.
Meh, it all depends on definition of fun. For me, more importantly, a game should compelling and should provide me with an experience.
Fun is in the eye of the beholder. I've just finished up the story on Bloodborne and my wife asked me if it was fun (as she saw me swearing on my 8th attempt on one of the bosses) and fun, to me is the wrong word. I was compelled though to get good enough to complete it and I felt satisfaction when I did but I wouldn't call it fun in the same way I find whizzing around a track in Mario Kart fun.
Permadeath or whatever it actually is on this game feels like it suits this game down to the ground even though I may find it frustrating.
I have limited time to play games, I'm not interested in permadeath. Hard game like bloodborne is okay, diablo 3 hc like permadeath is not okay, it's a waste of my time.
Still, I plan to play this game since it's not too long and I can always replay it if the gameplay only 6 hour, or lower the difficulty.
I hope they patched the permadeath out though (if the game has permadeath).
@Constable_What It's a game that's chief objective is to use the tools of the medium to convey the symptoms of mental health, so no, I don't think I would describe it as "fun".
I think your view of what games are and can be is seriously limiting, and it makes me wonder why we even bothered progressing beyond Pong.
@Constable_What I don't think all games need to be fun. Dark Souls & Nioh come to mind. I've died almost 2000 times in Nioh, not my idea of fun, but I play it for the challenge.
@Rudy_Manchego That's what I'm saying. I didn't mean my comment as a point of fact. That's why I said it was "my stance" on it. Fun is in the eye of the beholder, I agree with that. I won't know until I get my hands on Hellblade, but if I enjoy it then to me it's fun.
Fun has such a broad definition that anything can be fun for the right people.
I thought Bloodborne was really fun. Some of the bosses were really frustrating, but they felt rewarding when you finally killed them. I love that game so much I even platinumed it!
@Constable_What Is the last of us opening chapter fun? Is nier automata third playthrough is fun? I don't think it is, it's heart breaking for the former and depressing for the later.
But the question is, is gamer like it? The answer is resounding yes. So the most important thing for games is that people like it, it doesn't have to be fun, it can be depressing, it can be heartbreaking, limiting games to only fun is the same as saying all movie/book should be fun, if that's the case, there will be no logan, or grave of the fireflies.
@Fight_Teza_Fight I thought Nioh and Dark Souls were a lot of fun.
Fun is entirely subjective. So maybe asking if something is fun isn't the wisest thing to ask. I'll note that next time.
I love the fact they're trying something different with the medium and not letting previous preconceptions of what a video game should be restrict them.
The fact they are so brave to bend or break the rules should be applauded, especially if it fits well with the rest of the game and creates a fantastic synergy. I say, give them a chance.
The problem is a generation is growing up with easy games where nearly every game can be completed without any challenge. This is only a problem if your not willing to learn the game mechanics. Or if you give up at the first sign of adversity.
@artemisthemp
Blame the websites and news stories for not reporting it. It was not a promoted feature but the information was there. The articles just chose not to report it.
@get2sammyb I think your definition of the word fun can be for people is a seriously limiting.
I asked an honest question because I respect you as an critic and you replied with nothing but snark. That's fine. A little japes and jabs are all in good fun.
But I happen to think that rewarding experience that can better you as a human being can be fun as well! You don't really know me and that's okay too. Part of that is my fault. I don't appreciate it when you twist my words and say that my view of games is limiting. You hardly know me.
Let me help you understand me a little better.
I think fun games/experencies are games/experiences that are worth playing, rewarding, satisfying. My definition of fun is very broad.
If you don't like that I call some games "interactive experiences" then just pretend I said games! I really hope you understand.
I can tell you feel very strongly about this one. You got immediately defensive. So I know that you think it's worth playing.
I take this as a glowing recommendation. Thanks!
@Constable_What It's all subjective. If it's fun to you that's all that matters .
I've personally found that I like playing games more for the challenge rather than for fun as I get older (higher difficulty knowing I won't enjoy the game as much). Anyways I'll leave it at that, don't want to divert from the article any more.
I think its a great idea. I plan on giving the game a try once the price comes down, and ive cleared some backlog.
I encourage games to continue pushing the boundaries, and getting creative.
@wiiware I thought that that was fun too. They were really really sad, and they choked me up and brought me to tears. However I would still say they were fun experiences in great games!
@Constable_What I'm not being snarky, I thought we were having a discussion? The world would be a boring place if everyone agreed all the time, I was just responding to your comments is all. shrugs
@Fight_Teza_Fight This is a Soapbox though, no? I thought it was a free exchange of opinions and rationa and/subjective discussion?
One person gives a thought and then the conversation goes from there! 😊
If no one had a different opinion things would be terribly boring! That's just my opinion anyway.
Cheers!
@Constable_What I think "fun" maybe the wrong word for the medium these days. I think "compelling" is a possibly more accurate term.
Sooooo... it's a lives system in a moustache?
@get2sammyb Sammy, c'mon man. 😂
You are almost always a little snarky, but you straight up called me a casual with a narrow mind towards what video games can mean for entertainment and art. I mean the line that reads "it makes me wonder why we even bothered progressing beyond Pong." that is a snarky comment.
I respect that though. I absolutely love that you take the time to interact with the community! Verbal jousting is all in good fun.
I'm an American though so I'm sensitive! Use more emojis so I don't get butthurt. 😂
@adf86 I don't know about that. I mean why can it only be one word to describe every game that comes out nowadays?
I mean how someone describes fun is different for everyone! I think compelling is fun!
The literal definition is enjoyment, amusement, or light hearted pleasure. Those are broad adjectives as well.
To give a contrast: I think the things that are unfun are dying and then waiting to respawn in a game, or walking around with nothing to do in a game, or technical problems getting in the way so that I can't enjoy a game at all.
I guess my definition is it it isn't boring or broken and I'm playing a game it's fun for me.
Man what a discussion. I think I learned a little bit to be honest.
@Constable_What Don't worry, I think I get what you mean - we all have our own definitions of fun and I get what you mean regarding frustration over gameplay mechanics
I'm a bit the same with films or books - I know that some films are awesome but because I know they are going to put me through the ringer, I often put off watching them. Like the Emoji movie (just kidding).
@Constable_What So it is! My bad!
@Constable_What I apologise if it came across that way, it really wasn't my intention. Thought we were just discussing!
@Rudy_Manchego It's so hard to express myself in text sometimes! I don't speak at all the way I write and it takes me a couple tries to find my voice(I try and use a lot of exclamation marks to sound more upbeat!). I think it's because writing is an escape to me. Err, from me? Oh I dunno... Mental health issues are something that my entire family struggle with. I hate the stigma those issues have, so I want this game to succeed! A game that's fun has a better chance of success!
I don't want it to be niche; I want it to have mainstream appeal so that more people have a chance at understanding mental health issues.
I think part of me doesn't want to play, because I really don't want to hear what other people have to say about the subject, but I know they're valuable insights! I'll just have to play it.
Oh and The Emoji Movie is totally awesome. It gets like a, oh I dunno, a Q/8?
How many movies have gotten a score of Q? The answer: just one and that movie is The Emoji Movie. Patrick Stewart as 💩 will an Oscar for sure!
@Constable_What Not at all - your comments are fine!
A game like this is going to be divisive for lots of reasons but I think that is the point of having games that addresses difficult topics, via both the story and its gameplay. The more we all talk and argue about it, the more the game will stay in the popular consciousness.
@get2sammyb It's so hard to convey thoughts in text with the subtleties, tones, and inflections of voice. It takes me a couple tries to even find my more friendlier tone! I tend to seem very dry, cold, or dismissive when I first start commenting. I'm not trying to be, I'm just not fully explaining all of my thoughts.
I think it goes without saying my posts are long enough!
I think that was a good discussion though. I understand where you're coming from and I think we are on the same page. It's just that blasted "fun" word that mucked everything thing up!
I have one more question and then I'll leave you alone.
Now without spoiling anything: do you think the message regarding mental health issues was a significant or meaningful one?
My entire family struggle with some type of issue, myself included, and now I don't want to feel like I'm being pandered to (If that makes sense?), but I don't want to be angry at the conclusion (I doubt I will be).
That's probably a hard question to answer, so here's an easier one:
TL; DR
Did you learn anything new about mental health from playing this game?
Thanks for replying so much to me. I appreciate it.
It feels like they're bluffing about ACTUALLY having permadeth...
Oh man, my interest in this went from 0 to 20 really quick. I LOVE games that use the interactivity inherent in the medium to do things that are impossible in any other form of entertainment!
As for the "games as art" discussion, I'll say this: I think video games are, first and foremost, as I said, a form of entertainment. I think that's their primary function. With that said, I reject this notion that entertainment can't also be thought-provoking, provocative, or evoke negative feelings in us.
What I absolutely reject, though, is any notion that video games should be didactic in nature. It's one thing to explore themes in your work, and even to adopt a certain moral viewpoint in the work and argue for it: it's another entirely to create your work as a form of propaganda. It can be a fine line, but I feel like the latter is absolute betrayal of the audience on an artistic front. The big difference, I think, is that the propagandist grants himself or herself permission to lie to the audience in the service of their perceived truth.
@JoeBlogs
I wrote a lot. I wrote so much I would feel like I wasted my time if I deleted it all. I think I made good points, but I'm also sleep deprived (The power in my house is off due to an accident and it is incredibly hot.). If you're going to read anything read the bottom bold text. 😂
I see what you're saying, but the reason I love video games is that they stand apart from "serious" works like film in literature. It's like the Punk Rock of mainstream entertainment; I don't feel like they need to be taken seriously. Honestly film and literature nowadays can seldom be taken seriously. I mean if they ever could.
I think "fun" kind of keeps a game free from the seriousness (or lack thereof, I subscribe to notion of French Existentialism how's that for pretentious?) of everyday life? It's a nice escape from real world problems and having "fun" is a part of that for me. It's why I can't stand new Marvel Comics! (Captain America a Nazi? Get outta here Marvel!) Most of the new comics are not fun; I get the impression the writer hates the material and hates the reader. -_-
I don't think the word "fun" is limiting at all. All the word means is "enjoyment, amusement, or light hearted pleasure." or being key. It can mean any of those or something else entirely even.
Fun to me is, "Where you bored, angered, it was the experience flawed?"
Most Telltale games to me are boring and very glitchy I don't like them and I don't think they're fun.
Quantic Dream games are actually called "Interactive Dramas". That's a total David Cage-ism so take that as you will! 😂
I think it all depends on who is playing the thing, and what they get out of it.
My opinion is: if a game isn't "fun" I don't see it as a game. So like Mass Effect: Andromeda (That wasn't a game that was a mess), Just Cause 3 (Not a game that was a literal headache), For Honor (That isn't a game that's lesson in frustration, patience, and a platform for twelve year olds to message you racial slurs for playing Nobushi). That's just my opinion though. I play games that I think could be "fun" and if it isn't it isn't a game to me.
I think of it like cooking. Video games feel more like the art of cuisine than film or books. I think of it this way because food can taste horrible (Like objectively bad, as in it could make you sick) and look good, and vice versa. Because games aren't just art they have a technical side too. That matters more than if it looks good or conveys a good message. Eating terrible food isn't fun, and playing a broken video game isn't fun.
That's the thing about art though! One person thinks it's a masterpiece the other thinks it's trash.
The long and short of it is:
"Fun" isn't so much a label as it is a way quantify a feeling. It's meaning is so broad that anything you moderately enjoy can be fun. That's just my interpretation of the literal definition. I agree with you though it is an interesting discussion. Much obliged.
@Constable_What re: your last comment. I have been reading push square for a long time and have never felt your comments are dry or dismissive so dont sweat it this has been a fascinating discussion about the medium we all love!
On topic, I am interested in this game, although i do have concerns about a permadeath mode. Less because im scared of challenge, but more because I dont have time to start over - although I acknowledge there is a suggestion it may not be all it seems in this title. Wish the game was on disc too.
@Constable_What don't sweat people treating your opinions as absurdly or dismissively as they have been. "game" literally implies fun, and if you choose to take a different kind of experience away from a game then that's ok too.
@Rob_230 Thanks!
I think the feature is like faux-permadeath from what Sammy is saying about it (I think you might have to start over, but it is somehow different when you start over? Its aparently a spoiler.). I had the game on Steam and have played it a little and am now downloading it on PSN. It's not that difficult, it's just very overstimulating, distracting, and tense. The game handles smooth and its responsive, but the camera makes it feel like how a clunky game would feel. You get the sense that Senua is tired, drained, desperate, struggling, and fighting with everything she has. I guess if I could be more succinct it would be like she is fighting back water. Like she's drowning. Its pretty cool. I was having fun, but its frustrating (it is supposed to be) I don't think it's that long of a game and there are difficulty levels.
Its very different. I think I might even let myself die to see what happens.
@BowTiesAreCool Thanks man. I won't. I like to have a discussion, and Push Square is like one of the only sites that's possible. I've been on many sites like this and every other comment section it would be a fight and insults and threats. That's only happened once here for me the extent of which was
Guy: You're a moron.
Me: Your gran's a goth.
Tasuki: Cut it out you two.
😂
This community is great. 👌
The staff here are great. 👌
It's such an interesting mechanic, I almost contemplated buying it to just try it out b4 all this backlash gets it patched out.
@Punished_Boss_84 yeah, agree. I wouldnt be surprised to see that happen. Its a shame the game is coming out in the same month as Sonic, Thimbleweed park, Uncharted and Yakuza. I will defo buy it soon though 😊
@Constable_What haha yer gran's a goff 😂 take it easy man
@Constable_What
Hmmm... I think you're right in general. Like, the purpose of a "Game" (with a capital g) is enjoyment. But video games are kind of in a weird stage right now where they're slowly becoming something between a game and a story, or maybe a game AND a story. And stories don't necessarily have to be fun to be good.
Some games I think are really good (either gameplay, story or immersive experience) but I don't consider fun.
Drakengard 3
Deadly Premonition
Silent Hill1-4
Btw, I don't think you're wrong. There should be fun games. But games are so varied that I think there's more than enough room for pure fun games (Mario, Smash Bros, Pokemon etc) and pure experience (TT's The Walking Dead Season 1) and everything in between.
edit* I guess maybe it also comes down to what is a person's definition of a video game? But yikes, that's opening up another discussion altogether. (T_T )
@JoeBlogs You're right, of course. I didn't really have educational software in mind. I more mean a piece of software where the whole purpose is to force a set of values on the player. Obviously a developer's values will be reflected in a game through design choices, but that's not the same thing as trying to use a game to propagandize.
Personally, it's a great little mechanic to implement story-wise, I especially loved the scene it was connected to. Also tells a lot about the gamer.
@get2sammyb I agree with you and others are saying here, that games have evolved beyond pong and pacman to be more of a literary form. And with that evolution comes an expanded scope of what can be tackled. I also agree that there is a parallel to movies which evolved from their original simple format to more complex themes. Requiem for a Dream is another great example of a movie I never want to re-watch despite being glad I've seen it. In the same way that a movie of that nature wasn't possible as a silent picture and within the corresponding cultural atmosphere, games can now branch out to be more than just army dude shooting everything. In fact I think the industry desperately needs this to stay afloat since we are seeing such homogenization elsewhere.
PS, this needs a forum thread
Can't have your save deleted if you just get a different game.
@sonicmeerkat Bet you were proud of that one?
@get2sammyb
Great article! You were particularly inspired in this one, Sammy. =)
This game was off my radar, but I'm so looking forward to playing it now. Love when they find a way to reach our emotions.
Quick question, though, does it reach a point of too much stress for sensitive gamers or did they put some moments to relieve the tension along the way?
@renankj Hard to say. I mean I found it stressful but not to a degree where I had to stop playing. I generally don't really have too much trouble with tense horror games and stuff like that, though, so I'm probably resistant to it.
I guess if you're finding it too overwhelming you can just play it in short chunks. It might even last you longer that way.
@Utena-mobile Next Soapbox: What is a Video Game?
There are going to be a lot of different perspectives on that one. 😊
Its interesting to think about, and I think it gives insight into why people play video games. A think a lot of people play games simply for a purely fun experience. I also think the industry needs these people to survive. These people are what keep the industry from a crash.
Right now the industry is doing great that's why we are seeing so many indies lately. The trick to healthy industry, I believe, is big games for a mass market, and smaller games with new ideas for a niche market that get adapted for a mass market down the line.
Worth noting that bosses don't seem to advance the permadeath counter when you die to them.
I was a bit worried about it being "permadeath" permadeath. But all in all you not only get a handful of lives, but you can dodge it out during a fight for a health regen or X button mash out of near-death from what I've played so far. Those elements really make it satisfying because I really struggle when it comes to games like Nioh where you die quickly and abruptly if you're not careful enough or constantly on guard.
Side note: If you like amazing cutscenes, mind shattering puzzles, literally "insane" stories and battles that are so gripping and intense that you jump off your seat with joy when you win, don't hesitate, dodge, and buy it. Well done NT. Well (worthy curseword) done.
@JoeBlogs
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0307474313/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502262949&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=extra+lives+why+video+games+matter
I will check it it out. Here is a link for anyone else that's interested. Thanks!
@JoeBlogs @Constable_What
Also, Extra Credits on YouTube;
https://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz/search?query=games+matter
I see mediums as platforms, platforms to provide entertainment but also ask questions, evoke emotions, and make us think.
The "What Remains of Edith Finch?" Canning Factory scene was a beautiful use of the medium to convey the detatchment from reality juxtaposed with the mundaneness of that reality.
I think it being interactive gave it more power, though I could imagine it as a film, or a comic book.
@RPE83 That's a GREAT channel! I'm already subbed. 😃👌
Quality content right there!
"the camera is kept uncharacteristically close for the genre, creating a sense of claustrophobia. When enemies spawn behind you, it’s hard to track them, creating stress"
That's the nicest way I've ever heard anyone say "the FOV in this game is ridiculously tight".
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