Nintendo Switch Overtakes PS4's Lifetime Sales in Japan

And remember, that PS4 is THREE years longer on the market !!!

It's sad to say but Japan is becoming less and less relevant. XBOX virtually doesnt exsist over there and Playstation doesnt focus on them as much. Even Japanese publishers realize the rest of the world is more profitable than 1 market.

@WillMerfi Not just you #Vitameanslife!!

I need those PS4 joy con, too bad they are just a Photoshop

@3Above I remember a few years ago some japanese devs talking about the japanese gaming market shrinking compared to how it used to be

@WillMerfi
Definitely not just you.
Why wouldnt Sony go for what Japan wants?

@Areus yes I remember that. Japan used to be a game changing market. It kept PS3 afloat back in the day. But when 2 thirds of the gaming industry puts their attention elsewhere 🤷🏾‍♂️

Kudos and fair to play to them! The Switch does have some pretty good exclusives.

not surprised Japan loves Handheld Systems.

@get2sammyb yep which is not a lot in the grand scheme of things

Not a surprise, even when i went to Tokyo some five years ago, the one thing that i noticed in gaming stores was handheld titles dominating and big ads for mobile games, like we have only recently had in the UK.

Globalism has changed Sonys focus but Nintendos success there is understandable.

With Japan, they have small houses (therefore, not a lot of room for consoles and stacks of games) and nintendo has always favored well over there, so no big surprise. Microsoft always had difficulty over there. But, Japan loves cell phones and the games on them, so it's understandable that they'd love the Switch for it's portability. If Switch was just a console, would it be taken into effect like this and do this well? Also, how would you really classify the Switch to begin with, it's a console and portable console, so it's like putting 2 systems against one system. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that nintendo is doing fantastic again and Sony has a major competitor now...I honestly hope for Nintendo and Sony to go head to head with this next generation, but how will the sales of the Switch continue once Sony and Microsoft release their next consoles? Switch will look very outdated by then, but also, nintendo will be thinking about creating their next one (they seem to make a new console every 5 years, and the switch will be almost 4 by then). Time will tell! I'd like to see the overall sales for all around (lifetime) for not only Sony, but nintendo and Microsoft.

in japan, they love mobile games. yes, the games we despise in the west are played in japan almost exclusively now. basically, everything i hate about gaming has been normalized in japan. by the end of the next console generation, there will only be a niche population left in japan who still games on dedicated consoles. so long as people in the west continue to prefer consoles over all else, sony will be fine.

@JLPick i agree with your points... but the one about houses being small in japan being a factor of not adopting consoles? that does not make sense to me. houses were always small in japan, correct? then why did they sell 24m ps2 units in japan back in the day? that was half of the sales of north america and mighty impressive at the time. the houses may be small, but they certainly have the space for a console. no, it is more of a cultural shift to mobile games almost exclusively being the factor here. the japanese have gotten hooked on mobile games and have forgotten their roots. perhaps they are more tolerant of budget mobile games with excessive micro transactions and horrific business models than we are in the west. i don't understand why but it is what it is.

@3Above yup. it was their own doing, though. they decided to take the dark path of mobile gaming, afterall. they have lost their roots entirely. maybe they will realize this one day and there will be a renaissance of console gaming in japan!

@3Above one small market can be ignored when it demands something inapplicable to other markets, not when it serves as the poster child of what has been a stable global phenomenon since Game Boy days in itself. Underwhelming sales of one Vita you botched selling don't mean any more for this market than Wii U's similarly botched sales for the home console one.

Japan is a most illustrative country where gamers face increasing (as per the expanding gamer age) need for gaming hardware that would follow them rather than have them follow itself or quit. But it's by no means the only country where gamers face such a need. Sony's paradox is that they're feeling discouraged from continued investment in according hardware despite its estimated vitality (no pun intended) in Japan - and despite 3DS and Switch continuing to prove its potential vitality westside, - but trying to quench the aforediscussed need by investing in a technology that still remains in its infrastructural infancy pretty much everywhere EXCEPT Japan.

Only time will tell how and when they will solve this paradox, but Japan would be a big mistake to ignore as a market, even before we get started on its evergreen industry value as the primary source of certain staple video game genres.

Not that Sony sounds keen on making this mistake when they openly admit they even "can't ignore the success of Switch".

PlayStation Sales in Japan

PS2 - 21,454,325
PSP - 19,632,197
PS1 - 18,855,344
PS3 - 10,469,971
PS4 - 8,047,754
PSV - 5,858,580

Nintendo sales in Japan

NDS - 32,990,000
GB/C - 32,470,000
3DS - 25,180,000
NES - 19,632,197
GBA - 16,960,000
Wii - 12,750,000
NSW - 8,230,000
N64 - 5,540,000
NGC - 4,040,000
WiiU - 3,340,000

Of the top 5 all time Nintendo sellers, 4 are portable. Bottom 5 are all consoles.

That’s seriously impressive of Ninty after the Wii U bombed. Still, they’re some good numbers for the PS4 and hopefully the PS5 does as well.

Japan loves portable hardware almost as much as Britain seems to love anything connected to the Playstation brand.

Both companies are doing spectacularly well in the States.

Microsoft... well, at least they're not reliant on their gaming division to pay the bills!

@nhSnork I dont how "illustrative" the Japanese Market is today. It WAS in the past. And the need" for gaming hardware that would follow them rather than have them follow itself or quit." Isnt by any means new yet they have had both success and failure in the past. But when you look at the numbers PS4 is almost at 98 Million worldwide. And per the article only 8 mill of that is from Japan. So why would would any company make drastic decisions like new portable hardware for example for Basically 10% of its fanbase?

I'm seriously impressed by this. PS4 has been around for so long and sold so poorly in Japan? What the...and Switch passing in what 2 years? For me this is insane...

Sony owning Europe, South/Central America and this gen even the States. Japan doesnt even seem to be their primary focus anymore. When your home country is less than 1/10th of the install base...Kudos to Nintendo but Japan has always gamed "on the go".

@3Above europe was huge for ps3 also

@Porco I agree. Their tastes seem to be fundamentally different from the rest of the gaming world overall. It's just their turn to not be the leading influencers. It used to be that Console hardware and Japanese games always released first in Japan. Now it's all about worldwide releases because the rest of the world is more important that 1 market, even if that market is the once all-important Japan.

There’s a reason the PS4 launched in Japan two months after North America and Europe. Sony knows its markets.

@lacerz exactly!

I think it's cool to see a handheld console being popular once again. The success comes down to a number of things: design, games, marketing, and so on. In part I also think it is because the PS4 has become less attractive to a Japanese consumer choosing between a PS4 or Switch. I have the impression that Sony has been promoting the PS4 more actively overseas rather than at home. Just look at the big exclusives they launched, apart from Monster Hunter and Persona perhaps, they are all games tailored to a typical Western gamer.

Credit to both companies. PS4 globally has done exceedingly well, and 8 million in Japan is still a good number for a console in Japan's current gaming market, I think. And Nintendo have done very well recovering from the Wii U's failure.

Not going to argue but I do believe if there's a market then they might Vita2. It's just might be tailored for that market but hey, just my feeling.

The Switch though isn't just replacing the WiiU but also basically replacing the GameBoy and Vita too. Its that flexibility that fits better with the Japanese lifestyle. Hasn't the iterations of the Gameboy been very successful in Japan too?

A 'fixed' console is in competition with PC's as well as other fixed consoles but the Switch is the most powerful handheld gaming console and also seems to have a wider target audience than a fixed console does. The Wii too had a wider target audience and why that did so well...

And the PS4 is at 96 million units and gets every game under the sun from every publisher. SONY has their market (and where Nintendo is barely at 2009 standards with the Switch)... Just focus on another amazing home console with PS5.

This is good news for everyone who needs a hand-held and stuck playing garbage old 3rd party ports on Switch as we wait for the 1 good Nintendo game.

Hopefully now publishers will take notice.

They liked the Saturn! No suprise, as seems that mobile hardware is their thing, different cultures different tastes I guess. I actually like to play different types of games on console and mobile, PS4 for home and have a Vita and 2DSxl for mobile, even if theyre not really supported anymore.

Portables always seem to do well in Japan, so it's no surprise.

@WillMerfi I'd love to have a new vita

@WillMerfi you're not alone. It's their only chance to become number 1 again in Japan, and more generally Asia. They NEED another portable solution, be that a new dedicated hardware (little chance) or a Switch-like solution that would allow to play the same games on the go with lower resolution (more plausible).

@Agramonte Heh, look at this guy tryin to downplay the Nintendo switch and its success... Don't be that kind of fanboy.

Who cares? Don't forget that Xbox sells less than a hundred units a month in japan.

@WillMerfi I wish. I would be content with a new portable Sony device that just supports ps4 remote play and ps now.

@jbreez00 Fanboy is the guy pretending they excited to play 8 year old SaintRow the third and AC3 at home (or on the bus) on Switch.

And mentioning the garbage 3rd party support on Switch says nothing about Nintendo. They doing their job - Basically carrying the Switch.

I want Sakura Wars and Ys NOX. Not games I already played on PS4 years ago. And seeing how Zodiac Age sold 20k on Switch in Japan, and is already gone from the UK top 40. It is obvious tons of people with Switch think the same way.

@WillMerfi That would actually be a neat idea, a dedicated remote play device, if fixed R/L 2 and 3 issues...

@WillMerfi I meant a new device with better specs than the vita.

I've never gotten remote play to work well, unfortunately.

Which is a shame, because it'd be ideal for games like Persona 5 Royal.

@3Above The X Box is completely irrelevant as well.

Japanese games are still highly relevant. However, Japanese people work long hours and live very fast lives, so portable gaming works better for them.

Being a PS4 and Switch owner, I feel like i have the best of both worlds. I can play as Joker in Smash Bros Ultimate and still play Persona 5 (and maybe P5 Royal later down the line) on PS4. Feels good man.

EDIT: @jbreez00

Agramonte posts at Nintendolife dude, they can't possibly be a Sony fanboy. He/she is just saying that some of the ports on Switch aren't very good. Case in point, Saints Row The Third is one of the worst ports on Switch.

@Onion Yep!... PS4+Switch can be a good combo.

Just being Able to play all of Platinum Games - from Nier Automata, Babylon's fall, Bayo3 and Astral Chains - is worth the price for both for me.

@Ralizah

You have an old ipad or iPhone? I use R-Play with an old ipad and MFI controller. Works perfect and do most of my jRPG leveling in bed 😃

Also great when my girl is using the family room TV.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/r-play-remote-play-for-ps4/id1222889057?mt=8

@Agramonte ha, for me its PS4 and 2DSxl at the moment. The screen is big enough to also run original DS games at their correct resolution and the overall available library is remarkable. There are a few switch games that appeal, but I would not carry the thing about, too large and expensive! Also, I liked the portable virtual console games, which the Switch ditched.

@Ristar24 I still have my N2DS also!... Tons of old games I still not played and PersonaQ2 is on Jun 4th!

No I hear you. Also -The Switch has no save back-up unless you pay for online subscription. So drop it - and you loose your expensive gadget and all your progress 🙃

@Agramonte I actually just bought a 'new' 2DSxl and transfered all my old games and VC stuff over from my slightly broken launch model 3DS. Forgot what a great little portable the system is.

@Ristar24 yeah... I traded my old 3DS for Amazon credit when I got the switch at launch. And missed it so much I got the N2DS the following Christmas.

In the end it was fine because the N2DS Is 10x better than my old clunker. And the hinge was dying, so no way it would have survived The hrs I put into Alliance Alive and Radient Historia.

Enjoy yours!... Yep, Great little guy.

@CupidStunt Are Japanese games that relevant? Yes they are established brands but when was the last time a Jrpg was truly groundbreaking or a genre leader? When was the last time a Japanese action game was a 'best in class" showcase? RE7 perhaps but that's about it. The games are good, dont get me wrong, but not as industry-leading as they once were.

@3Above That narrative doesn't really hold water. Games like Breath of the Wild, Bloodborne, NieR: Automata, etc. are generation-defining experiences. Japanese games dominated the mindshare and award shows in 2017. The best games this year so far have all been Japanese. Japanese console gaming is back in a very big way as of late.

@Neolit Nah. I don't disagree that Nintendo bungled the marketing of the Wii U, but, speaking as an owner of that system, while it had some decent first-party support, the concept of the device was just confused. Even Nintendo didn't know what to do with the GamePad half the time in their games. The most popular thing it enabled was Off-TV play, but that was still incredibly limited by the fact that you had to be in the same room as the system.

The appeal of the Switch, on the other hand, is immediately obvious at first glance, just like with the Wii. And it appears that concept has resonated with a lot of people, me included.

@Agramonte I don't use Apple products. Even if I did, though, I doubt the connection would be much more stable than it is on a Vita (read: not very).

@Ralizah I would argue that BoTW is only groundbreaking for Zelda fans, not for anyone who has played any other openworld action Adventure games. Bloodborne is an interation on the Demon Souls/ Dark Soul games. Cant really argue about Nier tho. Still, your talking about a year (2017) with games like Horizon Zero Dawn and Hellblade. Those are true generation-defining experiences that are still talked about 2yrs later. Japanese games have had an impact this gen, yes. But when we think of generation-defining titles, few Japanese games can compete with the likes of The Witcher 3 or God of War or Red dead Redemption 2 or Horizon. Those are the truly relevant games.

EDIT: You could even throw Hollow Knight or What Remains of Edith Finch in the mix.

@3Above Bayonetta 2 received many perfect scores and is considered best in its class. Zelda BotW has more perfect review scores than any game in history. Dark souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro, DMC 5. In fact, when did a good action game like this not come out of Japan? I am glad Microsoft lost this console generation, as gaming was becoming stale during the 360 generation with all the generic gung ho Americanised shooters. We have seen so much creativity and have had a new golden age of gaming this generation. And Japanese games have become more relevant.

@3Above Japanese games have been the best this generation, and gaming is all the better for it. I love my Playstation but look at the strength of Nintendo's brands. No gaming company achieve sales like Nintendo do for single console games. The attach rate of games Like Mario Kart, Pokemon, and Mario is just incredible. I am sure if these games were on all consoles they would be even bigger sellers.

Absolutely great time for gaming, Nintendo has been killing it with Switch and their output while Sony has been home to all kinds of fantastic titles too. Even Microsoft’s Game Pass is something to marvel at.

Can’t wait to see how the PS5 will shake things up.

@WillMerfi
Who says they have to risk releasing another Vita? If the Switch is doing so well maybe consider a deal to put the Remote Play and PSNow services on Switch since it's already strong in the market.

That's what I'd do. Don't try to beat it and risk failing, embrace it.

@zazzy
Bought mine day one for Breath of the Wild with no regrets. And the library has steadily grown since.

Japanese people spend a lot of time in public transportation and they work long hours. So mobile gaming might be the only way for them to play games.
I hardly play mobile and I hate that the switch has no achievement or trophy system. That's why I hardly use my switch at all. Only for some Nintendo exclusives.

I've enjoyed my PS4 for it's spectacle gaming, but a lot of the time it's like watching a film on a TV than playing a quick game. Western developers are big on cinematics where you don't touch the controller for 10 minutes.

I like the Switch as it's more about immediate fun- just as the majority of the Japanese games I play. I wonder if that's something baked into japanese gaming culture?

@3Above In other words, you're just a fan of Western games, and you're positioning your personal tastes as "what's relevant."

Your dismissive comments could just as easily be directed at the games you mentioned. But you won't, because you're unblinkingly biased toward them.

@MrGawain
It's not just Western Developers though.
Hideo Kojima "4 hour" cutscene says hi!

Although I do love MGS even all the in game "movies".

@CupidStunt
I can agree with this. Japanese games are some of the very best I've played too. What also infuriates me to a fault is the people who say "exclusives don't matter" when the Switch's biggest appeal are in fact it's exclusive Nintendo titles.

@CupidStunt I dont care about review score that much. I even forgot Bayonetta 2 came out, that's how impactful that was. God of War is a more influential action game.

@CupidStunt I think if these games were on all consoles they would get proper criticism. Being a Nintendo exclusive elevates a game in the minds of some. Compared to other modern games they arent that special. They rely on nostalgia and stale formulas, and want the player to be surprised and amazed when they finally add 1 or 2 modern gaming aspects.

@Ralizah I love Japanese games. According to that PS4 stats thing the game I played the most last year was MHW, I platinumed Gravity Rush 2 last month and I'm 50hrs into DragonQuest 11 right now. But ask any Final Fantasy fan (myself included) if it as relevant today as in the past and they will say no. Same goes for alot of the old Japanese franchises. These are the games that put the rest of the world to shame 15yrs ago. They were the Overwatches and PUBGs and Fortnites of their time. But now they arent the industry leaders. Doesnt men I dont like them, the landscape just changed.

@3Above LOLOL.

Have you actually played BotW. It deserves every Game of the Year award and perfect score it got in my (and millions of others opinions). The open world was revolutionary. Their big games (Zelda, Mario, Metroid) are actually games, and are not trying to be movies, and often tell a story through visuals. They are video game art in its purest form full of intelligent level designs, challenge and often clever puzzles. A lot of big Western games are repeat quest A,B and C over and over and over, or shoot, shoot, shoot smash its face in. However you do get some incredible creativity such as God of War and Dreams. Games like The Last of Us are amazing, and I love them being a huge Sony fan, but they are closing the gap between movies and games. There are more ideas and clever level designs in one level of Super Mario Galaxy 2 thsn the whole Last of us experience (amazing as it was). Nintendo games are that and that only: Games.

Nintendo games are adored by millions, and for very good reason. For example, Pokemon, like it or not, has an exceptionally complex battle system and trying to play it online is a science, one that people still find new tactics for to this day. Their games are the most emulated, and their designs are ripped off more than anyone else's. Every game is influenced by Nintendo sone how, and many of their retro games have stood the test of time, and are just as playable now as they were on release.

Their games may often be cartoony, they are like the Pixar of video games and are universally loved by millions of children and adults.

@3Above Bayonetta 2 might not have been impactful to you, but that does not mean to say it was not a phenomenal gaming achievement. Many incredible works of gaming art have not sold well; for example, The Last Guardian, Shadow of the Colossus and Okami.

@GADG3Tx87 And people bashing games because they are not on their favourite console or continent. I just love games, and raging fanboyism is just petty and they give us gamers such a bad name. They almost make me ashamed to be a gamer at times. A good game is a good game. Simple as that.

@GADG3Tx87 And lack of exclusives is on of the reasons Microsoft has failed this generation.

@CupidStunt Most of what you said is purely subjective. You say " A lot of big Western games are repeat quest A,B and C over and over and over, or shoot, shoot, shoot smash its face in". Correct if I'm wrong but doest that apply to the Pokemon games? I wouldn't know but it has always looked like ita the same game with new characters being released for years.

As for BoTW if you take out the Zelda in the title it's just an average open world adventure game with a (imo) stupid weapon breaking Mechanic that no other games with copy because ita stupid. I dont want to restart the debate but give me HZD over BotW ANY DAY.

"Nintendo games are adored by millions" sure I agree. Alot of that is due to nostalgia. I never said they were bad games. Just not as relevant today. Millions of people love Fortnite, or GoW or Spiderman.

@CupidStunt "@3Above Bayonetta 2 might not have been impactful to you, but that does not mean to say it was not a phenomenal gaming achievement. Many incredible works of gaming art have not sold well; for example, The Last Guardian, Shadow of the Colossus and Okami."

Take this entire paragraph and replace "Bayonetta 2" with any western game you dont like and it works just the same. Flower, Infamous 2, Transsitor, take your pick. It's all subjective my friend.

@3Above I played Horizon Zero Dawn and loved it, but it is nowhere near as varied and challenging as BotW. I am sure if it came out any other year, it would have win some game of the year awards. It is just a shame it came out the year as the same game many believe to be the best game if the past 20 years. If it were not for the combat, it would just be another generic open world game. Breath of the Wild had no pointers, you literally just got yourself lost in the game world and solved hundreds of puzzles. It was exceptionally varied, enormous and amazing they created such an open World that left you just to figure out everything on your own. Horizon was a movie like experience with cool combat and great graphics, but BotW was a thinking man's game. Do you own a Switch? I get the feeling that you don't. I love my movie like experiences, but I love my games more.

@CupidStunt "Breath of the Wild had no pointers, you literally just got yourself lost in the game world and solved hundreds of puzzles." For you that is a plus, for it's a big minus. To me it seemed they had no direction or structure so they just let the player run free. It's easy to just drop someone off in the middle of nowhere and tell them "have fun." It takes thought out design to guide a player through a vast world. Plus I'm very much a story guy.

No do not own a Switch because nothing on it Interests me. I've played enough of BoTW to determine that.

@3Above I am not arguing that. And who said I didnt like those games so your point is completely irrelevant. This conversation started when you made the sweeping statement that Japanese games are no longer relevant. But you are completely wrong and I have proved you wrong. You also said that Nintendo games are not good, or insinuated that, and I just pointed out that millions of people would disagree, critics and gamers alike. The opinions of hundreds of critics, and millions of fans means more to me than yours. I personally love games of all kinds. Westetn and Japanese. There are good and bad on each. I prefer games that are more gamey and less movie like, and you are the opposite.

I absolutely love Playsyation, I love Nintendo too, I also loved the Original X-Box. But dont claim Japanese games are not relevant just because you are not a fan, and say they are not selling anymore when facts and figures would state otherwise.

Not trying to get in on the argument here, but I agree with @CupidStunt that there is absolutely nothing "generic" about Breath of the Wild. The whole "generic open world" insult is used purely to dismiss the game without providing any actual reasoning. While I have my own issues or criticisms with the game, none of them have anything at all to do with it being "generic open world". Everything about the game was designed extremely well, right down to the unique and creative ways the player is able to solve puzzles, defeat enemies, or traverse the environment. Breath of the Wild's reception, review scores, and sales speak for itself.

As for the complaint about weapon breaking, this is a ridiculous complaint. Weapon durability has existed in games before BotW and after. Not getting into the whole Japanese vs Western games thing because I don't really care where a game is from as long as it's fun for me.

@CupidStunt You seem to be taking this way too personally. "This conversation started when you made the sweeping statement that Japanese games are no longer relevant." I refer to comment #5 where I said "It's sad to say but Japan is becoming less and less relevant" to me that different from "no longer relevant."

You havent proved anything except that you love games that I dont.

"But dont claim Japanese games are not relevant just because you are not a fan, and say they are not selling anymore when facts and figures would state otherwise."- I dont recall talking about sale number of games. And I never said I'm not of fan of Japanese games, quite the opposite in fact. So not sure where you got that from.

"The opinions of hundreds of critics, and millions of fans means more to me than yours." Okay. I never said my opinion was more weighty that anyone else's.

@Onion I found the weapon breaking to be completely ridiculous and frustrating but that's just me.

@get2sammyb thats why U gotta remember it !

Seems like my point was lost in all the replies. What I'm saying is that Japanese games are less relevant today than before. Back in 90s and 2000s Japnese games were the gold standard that other devs hoped to match one day. Now games like RRD2 and GTA5 and GoW and even AC Oddesy are the gold standard. And games like Pubg and Fortnite are more Influential. Publishers arent trying to make the next Person 5 (which is a great game) they are trying to make the next GoW or RRD2 or Cyberpunk 2077. Not saying Japanese games are bad by any stretch of the imagination.

@3Above you’re free to your opinion, but to say that BotW isn’t an objective landmark game in terms of reception and sales is denying fact.

@Sakisa Exactly when did I say that?

@3Above “I would argue that BoTW is only groundbreaking for Zelda fans, not for anyone who has played any other openworld action Adventure games”

When it was the talk pretty much everywhere I saw, and I still see it brought up. Heck, it completely dominated multiple GOTY things in 2017 too. It was that year’s big game.

@Sakisa ok, there is a difference between "groundbreaking" and as you said "objective landmark game in terms of reception and sales." I was talking about the change in gameplay compared to previous zelda games not how much it sold or how well it was received. A common complaint I read in reviews is "this game didnt do anything new for the genre". But that doesn't mean it wont sell and that people wont like it.

@3Above Assasins Creed as a yearly gaming franchise. Golden Standard games are usually those that are every several years. Ones that push the boundaries and do something new. Games like God of War, BotW, Grand Theft Auto, Super Mario Galaxy come out once in a blue moon and sell millions, even way into a consoles lifespan after they are released, because they are incredible and take years of planning, research and production. Assassins Creed games are just churned out, like CoD games to appeal to the masses. Many get enjoyment out of these games but they are hardly gold standard.

@3Above Where DOD you read the complaints about nothing new for the genre, as most reviews stated it reinvigorated the genre by not holding your hand and allowing you to think for yourself.

I would love to read the review that stated that.

@CupidStunt Assassin's Creed games are able to come out yearly because they're always at work on them and they are done by multiple development teams. They aren't just churned out with no thought like you would believe they are.