Even if Sony’s big PlayStation 5 deep dive was exactly what the platform holder said it would be, it was not what rabid fans wanted to see. The manufacturer has been blue-balling gamers for months now, keeping the most intimate details of its next-gen device underwraps. It’s now pulled back the curtain, but in the most anticlimactic fashion – and perhaps more excruciatingly, with numbers much lower than the immediate competition.
Obviously, the organisation’s upcoming console is not the disaster that social media will no doubt paint it to be, but with coronavirus crippling the globe, news of an impending PS5 unveiling sent shockwaves through the industry this week. This wasn’t a kneejerk reaction to Microsoft’s news – Sony works on its own timeline these days – but instead a Game Developers Conference presentation, curiously repurposed into video format.
It was, ultimately, an hour of PowerPoint from an industry veteran – but lead architect Mark Cerny operates on such a different level to the rest of us that many of his observations proved impenetrable to the vast majority of us. There’s no question that the PS5 is powerful, but its specifications are lower than those of the Xbox Series X, and while it does have significant advantages in some crucial areas – like loading speeds and 3D audio – there were no demonstrations to illustrate them.
This was, very much, a presentation intended for game developers – but putting it in front of a thirsty consumer base seems like a bad idea. Sony could have easily uploaded the full monologue for fans to watch, but it needed to be accompanied by some tangible demonstrations: what does 3D audio sound like and how does it make a difference? Just how quickly can we expect games to load? With very little substance, all we’re left with are numbers – and they’re lower than the ones written in green.
Coronavirus has very obviously thrown the Japanese giant for a loop; Cerny, stationed behind a VAIO laptop in front of an audience of silhouettes, will be the focus of many an upcoming meme. But that’s not an excuse for the organisation seeming out of touch with its audiences expectations: even if it communicated clearly what today’s presentation would be, you can’t leave over half-a-million fans watching on YouTube feeling like they’ve wasted their time.
This was a bad first impression, and the company’s going to have to pivot fast. It’s losing the teraflops battle, its backwards compatibility solution is inferior, and its communication is at rock bottom. Deadly disease or not, the manufacturer finds itself under pressure for the first time in a while. Perhaps the proof will ultimately be in the pudding, and exclusive titles like Demon’s Souls Remake and Silent Hills will change the narrative overnight – but this was a bad coming out party for PS5.
Did Sony drop a clanger with this game developer-focused update on the PS5? Is it at risk of losing the attention of fans by playing its cards so close to its chest? Whelm yourself in the comments section below.
Comments 131
I was happy with what was delivered. I also like mark breaking down teraflops. It was a lot to learn and get excited for.
Neither Xbox nor Sony are showing what matters — Games
They've not been terribly pro-consumer so far. I've been mostly Sony since I was a kid but at this point it's turning into a coin toss which next gen I invest in. I'm much more concerned with storage, backwards compatibility, and pricing than I am how quickly I can load a freshly purchased game on the days I happen to buy them.
People expected a E3 presentation instead of that tech show. It was interesting but it may be boring for most players.
Now, the fact that the media are pushing this "Sony is hiding something" rhetoric doesn't help at all.
A few numbers here and there are less but yes it would’ve been nice to see it’s performance.
For one, I want to see what ps5s double I/O throughput actually equates to? Could that make up for the number difference we see in other areas?
It was a little anti climactic, but overall neck and neck with MS. I don’t think the power difference is just going to come down to compute units and teraflops. Guess we’ll only see once some dual platform games get demoed.
Full backwards compatibility with prior gens was personally unimportant to me. Too many games and too little time currently, but I’m surprised they at least wouldn’t position some plans to address this since it’s so important to the masses.
Going to come down to the games ultimately. And we already know where we can find them.
It was fascinating. A lecture going into detail about state-of-the-art sound design aimed at industry experts.
Releasing this information was fine- but it only needed to be in a press release. Posting it on YouTube where the whole point of the platform is to show moving pictures of stuff was a big mistake. Very few customers and fans needed such an in depth explanation of how SSD works, and I bet most developers didn’t need the concept explained to them either.
@TheNewButler 2tb isn't even that extreme. I swapped my original PS4 hard drive for a 2tb on day one, and it only cost me sixty bucks or so. I was thinking about upping it to 4, but decided to wait for the PS5 to make sure I could reuse the HD.
Storage isn't nearly as valuable as these companies seem to think it is. If there's one thing Sony shouldn't be holding back when they make their money off digital games, it's storage.
As cool as numbers are we need to see the games.
But yeah this probably wasn't a good idea. Narrative matters.
Did anyone need that much explanation to understand that SSDs are faster then HDDs? Surely everyone in the industry has known this for what... 10 years?
I was getting hyped for the 3D audio, but the revelation that they haven't got a total solution for it yet and that we're just at the start of the journey, was very anticlimactic. I don't wanna play with headphones all the time.
I was very happy & found it interesting I always enjoy Cerny talking about Tech & Games.
I'm quite disappointed, most of what was talked about is part of AMD RDNA 2 tech and DX12, The only good point was the use of standard m.2 MVNe cards. Overclocking the GPU was long rumoured as the Sony plan to keep pace with the Xbox but it can not happen without heat, I wait to see how that will be dealt with but it is a big concern of mine. RDNA 2 has a lot of DX12 instructions baked in, are Sony going to be able to leverage them?
When we get to see the console we should have an idea about how it is going to handle that heat and in turn just how powerful it will be but its clear that xbox has the edge out of the gate
Gaming outlets like IGN called it a PS5 reveal, and it wasn’t super clear what it would be. They should have been obnoxiously explicit about it, or better yet, not even done this. Both companies have a terrible approach to revealing info right now. It’s not showing, it’s boring, and just feels disappointing.
PS5: 10.28 TFLOPs, 36 CUs at 2.23GHz
XSX: 12.00 TFLOPs, 52 CUs at 1.825GHz
Now this part of the presentation is key:
Not wishing to draw comparisons with any existing hardware past, present or future, Cerny presents an intriguing hypothetical scenario - a 36 CU graphics core running at 1GHz up against a notional 48 CU part running at 750MHz. Both deliver 4.6TF of compute performance, but Cerny says that the gaming experience would not be the same.
"Performance is noticeably different, because 'teraflops' is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. That's just one part of the GPU, there are a lot of other units - and those other units all run faster when the GPU frequency is higher. At 33 per cent higher frequency, rasterisation goes 33 per cent faster, processing the command buffer goes that much faster, the L1 and L2 caches have that much higher bandwidth, and so on," Cerny explains in his presentation.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-specs-and-tech-that-deliver-sonys-next-gen-vision
Saying the numbers are much lower than the competition click baity at best.
It'll be a lot cheaper, smaller, use a lot less power and is more than powerful enough to be huge jump up. It has much faster SSD storage and actually some decent first party games available. I'm excited despite the negativity around the 'specs'. Wait til the DF article breakdown, I'm happy it'll still be stunner. No jet engine that's what you all wanted, right?
It definitely wasn't meant for players, since everything they said was very underwhelming, especially stuff like storage and bc. It's worse if we assume a PS5 pro will come out and Sony expects a lot of people to buy PS5 when it launches. They have made many terrible moves so far and if PS5 doesn't improve greatly until it's launch time, their arrogance will bite them in the ass again. The least they could do is stop giving away exclusives, produce more of them with variety and implement a fuller and better bc function.
I've not watched it yet, but there's a lot of uncertainty around the gaming industry and it sounds like that uncertainty was reflected perfectly in this unveiling.
I think the flood of information we were due has turned into a trickle, and that's something we're going to have to get used to. Keep the faith, people.
1) Cerny admitted the Pro is very loud when playing demanding games, yet intends to overclock the bejesus of the PS5. How will that deal with fan noise and heating? He implied the machine won't make a lot of noise.
2) We have no idea how the BC PS4 games will run on a PS5. Will they load faster? Will they look sharper? Will they play faster? No info at all.
Underwhelming, but still, answered some questions.
"its backwards compatibility solution is inferior"
I would say vastly inferior, or beyond inferior. To match Microsoft Sony would need to offer all PS4, PS3 and PS2 games with improvements which we all know won't happen so Sony already loss the BC war.
@LN78 remember 900p vs 1080p days? How times have changed.
I found most of it interesting. Maybe not the smartest marketing move, though.
My big takeaways:
PS4 games can be played from a USB HDD, and don't need to be installed on the SSD.
Weird size SSD makes me think they're being very price-conscious. The only rationale for 825Gb over 1Tb must be pricing.
No proprietary plug-in SSDs (so far), just testing/certification for off-the-shelf drives.
Pretty much exactly what I thought. If this had come further down the line after we'd seen the box and some games and stuff, nobody would care. A Ted Talk after months of silence was always going to leave people mad.
@Juanalf I personally would have been fine with just PS4, although i don't think ps2 and ps1 would very demanding at all. I can excuse PS3 since its OS was a mess and if it can be implemented later to some extent then that's fine too. However, Sony either is still testing it and is planning to reveal it later, or plans to keep expanding the bc function as it goes on, this of course means that a lot of people won't be around to pay for a feature that is already implemented better in a stronger console.
@TheNewButler " I defy anyone to look at the MS demo of mine craft with ray tracing on and not be impressed."
Challenge accepted, I just looked it up... and I most sincerely wasn't. The mileage is a harsh mistress.
@Jarobusa I think 10.xx tf vs 12.xx tf is not as big as 1.4 vs 1.8 tf, both next-gen console will be able to play 4k and 60 fps games.
@NotSmartEnough 825gb is such a weird number.
Today's gamer throws a poo fit when a previous exclusive ports over to PC. It's no surprise then that when they are faced with in depth information, delivered by a consummate professional, the toys get further thrown from the pram.
I missed his checked shirt this time It was very technical and I didn't understand most of it but it sounds good But all the internet will do is bang on about is the Tflops tho :-/ Oh well, see how it goes.
@wiiware 2 trillion more operations per second is not a small difference.
While I really enjoyed the technical aspects of the presentation, in terms of global communication and marketing was an unexpected terrible disaster.
I can imagine the average consumer just comparing the teraflops numbers (and the bad backward compatibility) between a sneeze and another and declare the utter defeat of Sony console.
Revolutionary Audio engine and huge I/O bandwidth looks promising to me.
Im thoroughly convinced it will be the most cost effective unit. Possibly nudging Xbox by 100$ at retail. And he was also lead architect on Ps4...that turd has pushed out some utterly jaw dropping experiences. I have more confidence in him creating the most versatile machine and allowing 3rd party to create on par with Xbox Series X. And then all the secret for WWS to push out the banger exclusives
a bad first impression because you got lost?! 😂 little harsh.
@TheNewButler why are you posting on push Square 😂
@Nickolaidas
This was just a tech presentation that was meant for developers at the gdc 2020 conferences.
The questions you have we'll be answered at the proper ps5 unveiling.
Sorry sony but that was a total snoozefest, this shouldnt have been blasted out into social media like it was thee actual reveal. It was fine for what it was but it wasnt meant for the general public.
The thing im most excited about is the 3d audio, i cant wait to hear it for myself!
The only way this could have been ok is if they at least showed us at least a glimpse of the console at the end.
As it stands we are still waiting.
@wiiware
To choose 825 over 1Tb there must be a pretty compelling price reason.
It's interesting the way that MS and Sony seem to have gone. Looks like MS have gone for full-fat performance with a bigger APU while Sony have been looking for cost-savings with fewer CUs and smaller SSD.
My guess is that MS now have a decision to make:
Go with a single more powerful more expensive SKU and really push the power angle, or move forward with Lockhart to undercut the PS5.
@TheNewButler I wasn't impressed by the RT demo of Series X Minecraft because I was spoiled by this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NehSihoHCpc
Hey at least we have that "cool" 3D audio what many won't use or be able to use unless they buy expensive headphones or have a surround sound set up.
Sony dropped the ball here. If this was a presentation for game developers - which it clearly was aimed for - they should and could have delivered it privately to the intended audience.
By announcing the deep dive to the world, rightly or wrongly, they raised audience expectations that it would be something else. Its resulted in disapointment at a time Sony needs to build support among its consumer base.
Sony can come back from this, but they have made their job harder.
If the system was announced as less powerful than series x, but they had shown off killer software, none of that would have mattered. But now they've opened themselves to comparison with the competition and people will already have made up their mind on which console to buy based on the two reveals we've now seen.
If i were Sony, i would get on this pretty quickly to calm players. But i dont think they will.
Sure the numbers are lower, but honestly if it comes down to having lower numbers and still being affordable I would prefer that.
Sony has stated that their goal is to make this as easy for developers to use, and if the ps4 is anything to go by then that's fine by me. The ps4 has housed some of THE BEST games I have played. Sonya's first party absolutely killed it, while microsoft really dropped the ball. We all know that 3rd party is going to be optimized across both systems so it really is going to come down to price, and games. Neither of which we have info from either company on.
They definitley need to get going though. I understand there is the virus but the show must go on.
It's all gone over my head. I just wanna explore beautiful worlds and have glorious adventures.
@NotSmartEnough the rationale about the SSD size is that it easily distributes the data to the 12 channels of the controller
@TheNewButler At least PS5 is allowing you to buy additional storage made by third-parties, assuming they meet the speed requirements.
world in crisis europe in shut down 500 deaths announced today in italy today. not a time to showcase anything
@arnoldlayne83
Yup, and also:
"We can look at the available NAND flash parts and construct something with optimal price performance. Someone constructing an M.2 drive presumably does not have that freedom, it would be difficult to market and sell if it were not one of those standard sizes," Mark Cerny says.
Courtesy DF
@NotSmartEnough It seems 825gb is the real available space for games, the rest will be alocated to os.
Also I heard xbox cheap system is 4tf console, I think ps5 has to be $500 for xbox cheap system to sell (at $300). If ps5 is $400, buying $300 4tf console is not a good value compared to $400 10tf console.
@Jarobusa I believe there's no game that will be 60 fps on xbox but 30 fps on ps5 because of that 1.xx tf difference, normal person won't see the difference. Same with resolution, there won't be 720p vs 1080p, maybe true 4k vs checkerboarding 4k (for ps5) that digital foundry have to zoom 300% to some rock texture to see the difference.
I'm not kidding about the zoom 200% on rock things, I remember DF zoom 200% or 300% to see the difference rock texture on pc rise of tomb raider compared to ps4 (or ps4 pro) lol.
So far I’ve thought next gen has been underwhelming in general. This is the first time in my life that I feel no excitement for new systems.
Hopefully that changes in the coming months.
@wiiware
Source for SSD size?
@NotSmartEnough On twitter, although maybe that's not confirmed.
@wiiware
As far as the presentation and the DF article, the total SSD size is 825. Is Twitter saying it's 1Tb with 825 usable?
Not quite what I expected, but I guess it did what (appearantly) was Sony’s intention.
They could’ve «saved» it by throwing in 2 minutes of game footage at the end, though.
The Xbox has 3D audio too BTW and supports Dolby Atmos for gaming and can use audio rays (like ray tracing but with sound instead of light and the way it bounces off objects and materials to create a realistic audio landscape).
Whether its as technically impressive or not, we don't know but its not yet known which is superior. Sony may well of made it sound more impressive in their explanation but the effect could be very similar - especially as both rely on headsets to create a virtual 3D landscape. MS has offered that this gen too btw. It could come down to the way devs implement it on either system and in multi-platform games, there could be no difference.
As far as I can tell, the main advantage could be the higher bandwidth SSD which may give it an advantage on loading speeds but the Series X will still be very fast compared to current generations as it also implements a similar method of streaming direct from SSD instead of loading the assets to RAM and streaming from there...
With advancements in rendering - especially DLSS (or similar) - any differences in the running resolution could be impossible to detect - even in a side by side. DF has shown that 1080p DLSS can look cleaning and clearer than native 4k.
At the end of the day though, people will buy the console they want regardless of the differences. The fact that the PS5 offers [some] BC at launch and people will want to carry their libraries forward is a big incentive to stay with Playstation and its not as if the PS5 is lacking in specs - even if its not as highly specced as the Series X. Price too could be another big difference and that too may give Sony an advantage. Games are an unknown with MS - even if they will release on weaker hardware too - but Sony have a good track record of consistently strong releases and we are yet to see many of the newly acquired studio's offerings - apart from Hellblade 2, we don't know what the rest of the studio's are looking to release on Series X around launch. We have seen a couple of games from Ninja Theory and Obsidian (Bleeding Edge and Grounded) which are expected to release before the Series X but the rest is just rumour (Fable return) or the usual games from the studio's MS already had. Sony's tack record does give them the advantage here whilst MS still need to show they can compete in terms of quality and quantity....
Either way, I will endeavour to own both and looking forward to next generation gaming and what these specs allow devs to create...
Are you kidding?
The SSD is 2x as fast as the Sex ssd. Comparisons will be hard on xbox. I think it's a huge feature in favour of ps5. ITS NOT JUST LOADING TIME.
10tf vs 12tf is in the same range. No real difference.
https://twitter.com/dark1x/status/1240310267407405058?s=19
The biggest disappointment for me was how backwards compatibility was announced. Not a mention of PS1 - 3?
Almost all PS4 games?
I don't know. That doesn't seem like evolution or revolution to me.
The audio portion of the presentation was the most interesting by far. I don't even mind that it'd be a collaboration between all PS5 owners to get as many 3D audio presets to fit your ears as possible. That actually sounds pretty exciting to me.
I would have liked to see what it looks like as well. Just a small thing... Surely they must have what the SKU looks like set, hey? Kind of a bummer, like I know it was a presentation for the devs, but throw us PS fans a frickin bone Sony, come on!
It's like the State of Plays all over again. People going in expecting the world then hate on it when they don't get what they want.
Tbh, I've not bothered with this due to other commitments but the whole new console debate seems a little redundant now. It'll be a nice bonus once the coronavirus dies down but that's about it
Although somewhat disappointing that it at least didn't match the xbox, 99.9% of us on here will be getting this machine and we know it. For the first time, I'm actually going to plump for an xbox, and wait for the ps5. But also for the first time, I'm going to own both. I'm really looking forwards to this gen.
Was gritting teeth ( show the console parts and at least one game for it ).
As all the sidebar youtube muppets where going on about Minecraft 2 and Knack 3 and the Xbox wins.
I am looking forward to the PS5 it looks like it has some quality exclusive games and id rather have a playstation than a boring windows machine any day.
@nookie_egg
Yes your so right. The xbox teardown was great showing how easy it is to put together. But playstation wins for me and PS5 will have great quality games.
All the puppets care about is the xbox has 1/2 a terabyte more power lol.
Console logic 12 is a bigger number than 10 so 12 must mean better, in reality there is a lot more to it than just Teraflops. It's a buzzword, PR stunt hence why it's used. The 825GB SSD is totally, again haven't got a clue about how the HDD in Xbox & PS4 has held back devs. These customised SSD's are the biggest jump this generation, they are going to be game changers far beyond loading times.
I know some were okay with the presentation (though I really hope it isn't just Sony bias), but for me, when you keep many silent about the PS5's information, a lot of people will think that you will have more to bring to the table. It was an interesting presentation for developers, yes, but for the people who aren't, they have the right to feel disappointed. And a Playstation fan myself, I was kinda underwhelmed. Especially with the BC feature.
Still, as long they have good exclusives to offer, and some features we may not have heard of yet, that might chance. Though looking at the comparison between Xbox One X and PS5, I feel like if they were to make the price $100 less, that could help a lot. Plus, information about the PSVR on the PS5 would have been great as well.
Despite all of this, I'm still gonna give them a chance and hope that, after the mixed reception, Sony will learn a thing or two if they're considering on showing another presentation. As a presentation for developers, it isn't bad, but as something you want to show to more than just developers, you really need to have something to keep your audience interested.
Since we're still MANY months behind the inevitable PS5 launch, I'm sure Sony still has some tricks up its sleeves.
@Luna-Harmony Don't get me wrong, will definitely be getting both. But xbox has come out absolutely swinging, and it's done good, even digital foundry are singing the praise for it. Yeah, power doesn't really matter much to me, ps5 still sounds beastly and we know the games (exclusives) will be incredible. But, yup, going xbox first.
Not really impressed by the PS5 on paper. The Custom SSD is impressive, but will only be taken advantage of by the WWS as 3rd party devs wouldn’t dedicate the resources to something exclusive to 1 platform
Cerny did make a point that he rather have fewer but faster CU than more but slower due to the complexity of providing enough work for all the CU. I guess we'll see how this plays out in the actual games or if this is just damage control.
I did especially like how they determined how much SSD bandwidth is needed for nextgen gameplay experience and then designed a system to meet it.
And Sony would be smart if they price the PS5 slightly cheaper than the XB given the slightly lower specs.
Glad for backward compatibility - we wont have a flood of rehash ports like on my Switch.
Also glad for expansion based on NVMe.
But really wanted a release date 😕
Unlike Karren Brady and her fake Cancel the PL season without mentioning West Ham at the bottom of the table..Sony has a second chance to recreate a WONDER PS5 5 mega media Wonder
Wonder Twice and mega Twice
@TheNewButler just remember that, that amount isnt as bad as it sounds as the ps5 games dont need the whole game installing like on previous consoles, if you solely wanted to install single player from a certain game eg: call of duty you can you wouldnt even need to install anything else, vice versa if you just wanted multiplayer then you can just install that. It's not as bad unless you have a tonne of games on your shelf then I agree maybe not enough storage but it might work out better than you think I'm just not sure I like the whole you to buy the appropriate storage and make sure it fits and that may end up being costly that's my downfall with it sadly.
the 36CUs in the PS5s GPU are equivalent to 58 of PS4 CUs, and each one runs at > 2.7 its frequency, so that's about 9 times the GPU power (along with a bunch of other bells and whistles, hardware ray-tracing, etc) of the PS4, coupled with a vastly superior CPU, and an SSD that's a couple of years ahead of the PC market. look at horizon zero dawn on a standard PS4, now tell me that horizon zero dawn 2 isn't going to look f***ing stellar on PS5.. regardless if the headline teraflops figure is less (and a direct top trumps comparison isn't a completely accurate reflection of performance anyway).
For a second I thought bc was for ps3 and ps2 as they had shown it on screen but it wasnt to be, happy with ps4 and being able to use your external hdd on the ps5 a subtle touch so I will put all my games on that and just plug it into the ps5. I was a little disgruntled maybe even disappointed about how we dont match xbox's 12.1tf I mean it's not all about tf's coz there wasnt a big difference between the ps4 and the pro just a few extra shades and grass movements etc, but comparing specs with ram and the processor, hardware is not everything no I agree it's all about the games but if you want specific things like more detail than it's better to have better tech for the polygons as they had shown this with going from ps3 to ps4 so I feel that there will be a disadvantage, who knows maybe sony will release a pro console soonish depending on how the ps5 takes off. Whatever happens sony needs to figure out where they are headed, I just wonder if the tech they put into the ps5 is to make sure the price point is around £350 for the same price as the ps4.
They could've just sent this video to all developers!
I thought it was really interesting, although Cerny's deadpan monotone made it feel a little more boring than it actually was.
Personally, I'm tired about all the Xbox numbers comparisons.
It's pointless.
If, for example, I want to play God of War 2, I have to play it on PS5, teraflops be damned. It's not like the Xbox having more "flops" will let me play PS exclusives on it, right? So what's the point of comparing the two? If you like PS games more, you'll buy a PS5, if you like Xbox games more, you'll buy a Series X.
I seriously doubt anyone will buy either of the consoles simply by looking at the specs. Hardware's never been a console selling point, it's just an incentive. The cherry on top. Games are the only thing that matters, and people will buy one console or the other, or both of them, depending on their tastes in games (and the size of their wallets), not on 'flops.
In my case, I buy PlayStation consoles instead of Xboxes for three simple reasons: I like PS exclusives, I find asymmetrical sticks on a controller incredibly uncomfortable, and a lifetime use of Windows OSs on my PC left me with a deep distrust of anything Microsoft
@Hobbesyall Xbox has already showed several next gen console exclusives including Project MARA, Hellblade 2, and Halo Infinite.
That's the price of transparency. The huge majority of people wanted to run around with flashy trailers and big numbers. It is obvious that Sony is following a roadmap, as a GDC presentation now transformed in this video format, and the two machines (ps5 and xbox) are really close in power.
At the end of the day, it's tiring the amount of stupidity of this fanboyish mentality of both sides.
@DanM - i game on playstation for similar reasons. can't stand asymmetrical sticks, detest microsoft (not for xbox reasons, but practically everything else) and i don't find nintendo (or xbox for that matter) games remotely interesting, and my internet connection is nowhere fast enough at present or has low enough latency for streaming to be viable - even though the promise of stadia on linux eventually removes the windows barrier for PC gaming for me.
@lacerz after this in depth explanation people are still crying about teraflops. I am seeing what you're seeing. The story is only beginning. There's more to this to come and I feel Cerny's approach especially if we see what the cost of these new technologies and ultimately their capabilities will be may change the landscape of what we know about "teraflops" and compute power today.
@Noblevoice amen!
Sony need to take control of the narrative, I can’t believe the amount of ambiguity, SSD storage? An undefined amount, no view of the shell, design etc. No benchmarks of existing games to help create that baseline of what it could do, all we have is trust in the brand, and right now, in this financial climate, that’s not enough to go on.
@LN78 it won't be Microsoft isn't going to give Sony that advantage again.
They know what happened last time can't happen this time
They rectified the power shortage now they will eat whatever additional cost just to stay at that alluring other option.
You go 100 more you make it too easy for others to write you off and ignore your superiority.
@Jakovasaur they told you how much about 825 Gb or roughly 20% less than Microsoft
@NevG I'm sorry but when the shoe was on the other foot with ps4 and Xbox one all Sony people could talk about was teraflops. Now that the tides have turned now they want to downplay it? It absolutely matters and it will absolutely show in cross platform titles there will be many a article or video put out saying such and such runs best on series x or such and such is 2160p/60 (XSX) 1440p/30-60 (ps5) I and so on and so forth.
This type of news dominates for some time after launch and it definitely helped a lot of previous xbox owners make the jump to ps4 easier (in addition to Microsofts other blunders).
The system is at minimum 17% faster and due to Sony using vauge max performance quotes could end up up close to 30% lower.
Thise leaked numbers that revealed the Xbox and talked about the PS4 and its multi stage stepping for ps4 BC also said the chip would end up above 2.0ghz and with the same cu that was announced.
The estimated tflops was 9.2 and I feel this is a much closer number to what the ps5 will perform when is really being taxed in your AAA games.
You'll see the higher number when things are calm or you're playing some indie but for the moments that really count the chip is already being pushed well above what the silicon naturally wants to be at.
A 12 vs 9 tflops situation ISN'T nothing.
Again Sony is just making this hard for their own fans and giving everyone a free pass to step all over them.
They should step up and do something g to show what they are truly capable of.
I'm just afraid it will always be to a lesser extent than what microsoft can do.
@Noblevoice are they though only if the chip is running at its MAX POTENTIAL frequency is it around 15% slower were talking 2080s vs 2070 and if you actually see the more stable everyday clocks I think it will be much closer to 30% (9vs12).
Pushong that chip as high as they are it's going to run hot and it's going to get loud especially if they aren't designing case like Microsoft that offers function over form.
If they stick it in something like the dev kit it would be OK but if it's closer to the PS4 pro it's in trouble.
@DanM many people who buy these consoles don't buy them for the God of War or the last of us 2 (if they did why are their 120 million ps4 and only a couple million of those games sold?)
They buy these system to play the latest such and such title that all their friends play and the one they've been into for years and now just want the chance to experience at its best. They tend to go where their friends are already at but when you're that friend who is first to next gen it's ultimately up to you where you go and many (just like with ps4 and Xbox one launch) see all the news and articles and videos and comments about how call of duty plays best on ps4 or battlefield runs at 1080p on ps4 struggles at 900p (or less) on Xbox one.
. Those stories influence that guy who is at a juncture and decides if the price isn't more it only makes sense to go where the best place to play the games they care about.
Many people friends of mine included left xbox after years of being there because Sony just made more sense games ran better and played better and it offered it all at a cheaper price.
They weren't making those decisions based on exclusive one and done single players (they had no interest nor was there really anything worth much in the beginning) it was all the cross platform games amd the ones that were their go to's that made them switch they wanted to experience a great version not the mediocre second option.
@hoffa007 wherever they end up expect ps5 and series x to be the same I'm expecting 499. Microsoft won't let them under sell them and the tech even though better on series x isn't so much better that Sony can sell for a ton less.
Though Microsoft still has Lockhart and i feel are holding on to it as a surprise announcement when pricing goes live so they can not only have the most powerful Console but so they can also have the cheapest next gen option too
@JJ2 I'm sorry but the faster storage isn't going to be a game changer the fact that they both switched to ssd and require fast storage for new games is. But the difference between them will be really hard to find you might shave a second or 2 off a initial load but in general they both going to perform almost exactly the same. Check out Linus tech tips video on pci express 3.0 vs 4.0 storage and you'll see what I'm talking about I use a super fast nvme today in my pc and when loading onto games I'm always first but I'm not THAT ahead only a few seconds unless the other guy is in hard drive then it seems like FOREVER!
@Instinct and Sonys got what? Godfall? Lol
@leucocyte it may not seem like much but a 17%(at max 10.2 tflops) - ~30% (downclocks and comes in around 9.2 originally rumored)
But this difference may not seem like a lot but it can be the difference between solid 60 and variable one or true 4k or having to go 1800 or even 1440p
Things like this the series x is 2080s levels of power and with console optimization could give 2080ti a run for its money.
The 9.2-10.2 variable performance of the ps5 is much closer to 2070 levels and though still a fine card isn't "in the same ballpark" it's a different product stack all together.
@badbob001 well we all know single treaded high frequency developmt is the thinking of old and today's programmers are working to maximize the use of asanu cores as possible. Clocks can only ever go so high before you have a frying pan but more cores isichore manageable and realistic way of adding power.
The Xbox will run at 3.8 without SMT (hyperthreading) but will click down just a bit and run at 3.6 with it on.
The difference in raw fos by doing this has been shown by DF to offer up to 30% additional performance by just clocking down but adding those extra threads.
Old games worked best in high frequency situations above all else. But today's games and they future will more and more greatly benefit from more threads at slightly lower clocks.
@Cybrshrk well the XBox One X is more powerful than the PS4 Pro however that did not slow down Sony's momentum upon continuing their success this current generation. It's not how many teraflops the console has, it is what they are able to effectively do with them that makes the most impact. I fully understand what Mark Cerny was conveying today for the most part and if you look at how they are approaching their storage and also the speed at which the processors are able to send and receive information this could potentially give the PlayStation 5 the advantage in spite of its lower teraflop rating. This is all speculation until we are able to see both in action with multiplatform games released for both consoles. The fast that you feel Sony is fudging their numbers is your opinion and you're entitled to that however with their track record I don;t know them to be that way when they have provided information for anything they do. I have been playing PlayStation since the very first one that I still own back in 1997. We shall see very soon what the real deal is.
@hoffa007 I'm sorry but the fact that they didn't even provide 1tb of storage something that's been standard on this generation for sometime now is just crazy and really left a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of the presentation.
There's just no excuse and having the ability to MAYBE at launch maybe have an option to go spend another couple hundred bucks to have some actual storage.
@wiiware No way would they say 825gb if it was really 1tb because that'd be stupid when people are comparing the consoles. 825gb is before the OS space is taken into account.
@Cybrshrk
Its not just about loads screens. SSD speed impact a lot of things even up to efficient use of memory. This is not only twice as fast as the Sex SSD but everything here is designed accordingly around it.
It will show even for multiplat games.
@Cybrshrk - it's 825Gb for a reason, related to it being custom design so it can use available NAND and build something for a much more optimal price than standard sized drives. the custom 12-channel interface offers incredible speed, most people do seem to think it will be game changing, it is significantly faster than XBX, or anything PC has or will have the short/medium term. it has dedicated dma hardware controller that's using the equivalent of an extra 2 zen2 cores - it's essentially going to make the hard-drive function almost as if it's RAM, it should also offer big savings in memory efficiency. also a raw teraflops comparison is not a true measure of performance.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4higSVRZlkA
@Hobbesyall On the presentation, Cerny says loud and clear they don't have any PS5 games to test the hardware on. How are they going to show something they don't have?
I thought it was a great dive. And I don’t care if they’re 10 years old; no PlayStation fan thought this was corny nor bad. Anyone who did is obviously a Microsoft f¥€%toy.
With the corona-virus-ravaged week I’ve had (cutting my senior year of college short, my grad ceremony and honors conference cancelled etc) it was nice to get any news at all. I thought it was a positive vid, though of course I would’ve liked to see it in action
Wow typical reaction from people of the cell phone generation. In case anyone here didn't notice Cerny is a mad genius. The PS5 is revolutionary while the series x is simply evolutionary. If none of you noticed including Sammy, the PS5 is going to be a game changer. The speed of the ssd is more than double series x. The ssd is not just about load times. It's about how fast dats can be loaded. This is going to revolutionize how gamed are made. Furthermore Sony added co processors to remove most bottlenecks. Next the 3D sound is revolutionary as well. It will give true presence. There is absolutely nothing to be disappointed about. The PS5 IS GOING TO BLOW PEOPLES MINDS. It's a shame people just think more tflops is better. If you think the xbox series x is better then you did not understand what Cerny said. Check out digital foundry for the truth!!
@Dan_ozzzy189 You don't think overclocking the f out of the cu's won't overheat the console?
Found the video very boring. Doesn't matter how fast this is or how many of that it has, if the games are bad then it's all for nothing. More power dont mean better games. Look at Breath of the Wild. Probably the best game of this generation and it's on the weakest console. Just show me the games and system dashboard and then I'll be impressed.
@NevG is I took have been a Playstation user since the very beginning and was outside best buys toys r us or Walmart all night for days sometimes to get the new consoles so in not against Sony but neither am i against Xbox or really anyone. I like powerful hardware and good games and I play them wherever I can at the best quality I can for the majority of games that's been my super high end pc (even with Microsoft titles which I still love to ogears 5 was great) but
But calling it what it is and that Sony is coming up short with the performance is the only fair opinion ti have to try and spin that this some how won't show up in cross platform titles is irresponsible but as you've said we won't know for SURE til we do.
. I just prefer not to bury my head in the sand and feel I must call a spade a spade.
The fact is storage speeds though needing a massive boost over what the previous consoles had is NOT going to be a big differential in the performance of a game across the two platforms.
Cross titles will obviously take advantage of the speed on a very low level but the Xbox performance will be the target as it just illogical to try and make a game somehow benefit MORE on ps5 while still being supported on XSX.
1ST party titles designed exclusively for ps5 may in fact put the extra i/o speed to good use and may lead to some interesting ideas but at the end of the day the Xbox velocity architecture is aiming to provide very similar instant access to game data at any time.
The jump from hdd to ssd is what will makes the biggest benefit and they'll both blow you away on their new speed in lauding and streaming assets. The speed difference between the two though will be much less noticeable and again on cross plat titles they won't be designed in anyway that would take advantage of the extra i/o speed on ps5.
I've been using a very fast gen nvme for some time now and though it is lighting fast and I load into games 1st every time my fellow players pop up behind not long after I barely get loving before I hear the porting in. That is unless they're still using hard drive for storage then it's sometimes up to a whole minute or more later before they show up.
@Cybrshrk I'm going to agree to disagree and conclude this conversation. We'll see what happens. The most powerful is not always the best. I like what I see and will speak with my money.
@Nickolaidas it absolutely will and people who sit around trying to down play the performance difference and compare things like old consoles that were slower but had better games.
Back then their architecture were so different and required a lot of work to get working on other platforms than originally designed led to many games not being optimized when running on more powerful but more difficult to work with systems..
The situation is here is very different these consoles are literally using the same parts just out together in slightly different way they will be running a lot of the same api and code and will see games brought over between platforms a much lore straightforward thing.
It's true like cerny said that comparing things like tflops of ps4 or pro or Xbox one x to ps5 or Xbox series x or anything that came before is foolish as the change in architecture means those flops were all able to have more or less efficiency based on their designs. Again as cerny said GCN DOES NOT EQUAL RDNA2.
These consoles on the other hand are the exact same architecture and a direct comparison between them using information such as tflops is a very useful tool.
It was the same with Xbox one and ps4 and with the PS4 being the more powerful Console it led to almost every single cross plat running best on ps4.
The same will most likely apply here wlas well they are too similar for the difference in "performance" numbers not to have a direct correlation into either lower fps lower res or lower detail settings possibly all three or some combination of them.
Games run looking either better or faster playing on a 2080s vs a 2070 and that roughly the power difference we are looking at.
@Exlee300p dude we've had 3d audio for a LONG time and you can currently use Dolby atmos in many games and experience 3 dimensional sound stage and presence of audio not only around but above or below you.
The fact that this thing has dedicated audio isn't that different from what microsoft has in its dedicated audio hardware and with both sporting ray tracing they can use that in audio design to make it even more realistic.
The point is the both can do this Microsoft is just not pushing something they've basically been doing for a long while now.
@Exlee300p I watch df guys religiously and I've seen all their coverage even they have said the ssd performance won't matter in cross plats and only first party will put in the extra work to make that little bit faster i/o actually useful.
They also plain out said the Xbox is more powerful but they are interested in what Sony can do with the higher frequency vs the lower cu.
More power does not equal more better but it it does mean more power and the Xbox has more power and the last time the two original consoles launched the PS4 was more powerful and it mattered and it showed.
Every other news video or comparison was ps4 runs such and such at 1080p xbox one at 900p (or worse) this type of direct comparison dominated the coverage of the new consoles at the time and I'm sure led to many of those die hard xbox fans to jump ship when it was clear their games were going to be better on the other side.
People aren't goi g to switch mid generation when people have already been on a platform that long the Xbox one x or ps4 prop isn't going to get them to switch.
. That usually happens at the beginning of a generation when people are much less invested.
With many long time xbox players seeing Microsoft providing great backwards compatibility all the way back to the original Xbox it may be tempting to just go back home and have access to all that old content they've been missing out on.
@leucocyte yes and Microsoft has promoted their velocity architecture with access to up to 100gb of game data instantly.
At this point neither is tested and shown to have any more or less of an impact.
The fact is i/o speed is almost always the last thing to be effective against or for your games level of detail fps or resolution.
At the end of the day that's all that really matters and though ps5 1st party titles will be designed with the extra i/o in mind the cross platform titles will not.
Dolby atmos isn't 3D audio the only other 3D audio is in the PC space.
Listen to people that actually know what they are talking about, and again Teraflops is a marketing tool.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4higSVRZlkA
@wiiware I think it's 825 due to the shear size of the is, probably a 1tb card but they stated useable space. Not confirmed so remain to be seen.
In the end, I don't think this is the best way to hype ps5 capability for the first time on youtube, shows the game first, then the ps5 specs with what it actually can do in the games.
Some company like apple don't just shows the megapixels of their camera, but what their camera can actually do, same with their processor. iPhone cpu usually have low mhz but actually really fast in the real world compared to their competitor, and apple shows this by saying their new cpu is x faster than the old one. So there's not much iphone vs others phone mhz vs mhz, or megapixels vs megapixels, rather speed comparison for cpu and actual photo comparison for camera.
Started with ps4 pro events, their marketing departement is just bad this gen, it's a night and day different compared to ps4 marketing.
And that's including horizon zd pc, why they announced that before ps5? They should announced it with horizon zd 2, saying we want people that didn't have ps console yet to experince the first game, so it's clear they only porting this so more people play it, love it, and buy ps console for the sequels.
@Barkey1988 Yeah it's still not clear what 825gb means, is it full capacity or real capacity. This is the first time I heard of 825gb though.
Irrespective of the numbers and details what struck me was how amateur the whole thing was. Cardboard cutouts for people and a powerpoint straight out of the 90's.
@Cybrshrk to quote you "it only makes sense to go where the best place to play the games they care about." That's the same thing I said, isn't it? "Games are the only thing that matters, and people will buy one console or the other, or both of them, depending on their tastes in games".
I used exclusives as an obvious example, not as the only reason. First come the games, exclusives or not, then you choose your preference of console. That's all. If you like Call of Duty, it's obvious you'll get a console that plays it better, which is all I was saying, the games come first
@DanM I think people that like call of duty will go to playstation where they can get exclusive dlc for the games, I means if that people religiously play cod every years and not much else, there's no way they want to wait for one year dlc exclusivity to last. Same with fifa games.
@Cybrshrk I realised that after as I was thrown off by a statement "of the capacity we decide to include", but the ambiguity statement holds around performance, design, backwards compatibility, pricing. Everything I took away was that PS5 is a smarter design.... But is it better?
literally all they had to do was say hey guys here's the PS5 and look at some games you can play on it. it was harder to mess this up :')
@wiiware Yeah, everyone has their own needs and preferences, which is why I said that specs aren't the most important thing.
For example, all my friends play on PlayStation, but very few of them play exclusives. Most people I know play on it because pretty much everyone they know does it as well, they don't care about specs and teraflops and so on, because if they want to play with their friends they need to buy a PlayStation anyway. Of course, that's because where I live almost nobody plays on Xbox. I suppose in other places it'll be different...
But that's what I'm saying, regardless of what games anyone plays, there's many more important things they need to consider in buying a console or the other, and all of those come before teraflops, pixels and all that crap
@Cybrshrk Don't be sure you know for sure about crossplay. Companies may take the time to optimize it for the Ps5 with it's blazing speed and 6 priority level controllers. Or seeing as how inferior the series x is on ssd, they may just choose the Ps5 over x for the game. You are minimizing the ssd. And at this point how it will play out is all speculation.
This is a very underwhelming Console build up.
825GB SSD is not enough, especially when the SSDs compatible with the PS5 are not even on the market yet and will be crazy expensive.
The Backwards Compatibility is not clear and has left me and many PS4 Owners in the dark as to what games we will be able to access on the PS5 system.
It seems Ray Tracing will be a very dumb downed version at that to run on the Sony System too.
The big pluses are the speed of the SSD and the 3D Audio that they are championing, I just hope it is as big of a leap as Cerny says.
I hope as this is a 9 TF Console (Overclocking takes it to 10.4 but is likely around 9.4 TF Raw), the pricing will be a lot more competitive than the Xbox Series X and means that the consoles won't cost £550 plus.
Also I am hoping that there are multiple storage options, like a more expensive model for the sake of 2TB storage or 1.5TB etc.
Is it was a very boring video, I watched it all, understood about half and felt it was for business's rather than gamers. They need to do another fast with all the fun stuff we wanna see
@MasterEMFG dude, all that is is read/write speeds. That's it. That's how fast the CPU and GPU can get what it needs from the onboard storage. It's nothing truly spectacular other than it's much faster than developed anticipated but even with that itts a 825GB SSD, with probably anywhere between 100-200 GB going to OS and other system level partitions.
Folks are not seeing how Sony is overselling the PS5 rn
@Nickolaidas absolutely, that's why I don't want that to be done. I don't want another noisy overhearing machine!
@DanM Yup, the most important things for most people is price and games, if playstation nails those 2 things ps5 will be successful console I think 😃
I love my PS4 to death!
But I have to give raw specs to Microsoft
I give the game Titles to Sony
This is going to boil down to Price.
The way I see it is M$ have built a PC and Sony have built a custom console that potentially will offer more in the long run. Sony wins in my book.
@Craigsouthern
There will be another, it'll be called PS5 unveiling.
Maybe I'm just a nerd, but I thought it was really cool to see more of a deep dive on their choices. I loved the presentation but can see why others could feel let down.
They need to give us the ps5 already. Thus virus is gonna have everybody on lockdown and we need something to do
If Sony wants to sell their console fast, they have to get their backward compatibility right. Without even factoring price differences between the 2 console, tflops numbers don't matter as much if you can run PS4 games upwards of 4K 60fps. I was disappointed that there were no mentioning of how this would be done but the presentation is for PS5 development and BC will be the least of their concern.
That said, I think many fail to see the power of the new SSD which Cerny promised would allow for 1 sec load time. If you compare that to the time Series X took to resume a game (> 6 sec), its game changing.
@Juanalf There are only 20 or so OG Xbox games available on Xbox One, and only a chunk of the 360 games, not even half the games.
@gcunit its not about being quicker but how it can be a game changer in game design
It's exactly what i expected it would be:
Typical cerny presentation -stuff that technically amusing, but would make close to zero sense for the masses watching it.
People outrage because no product reveal. although it's pretty obvious that they're not going to do it.
People disappointed because of the numbers, although numbers never mattered in every generations ever.
Websites and youtubers making huge fuss about these stuff. Cuz they gotta eat.
So yeah, everything are as expected.
@Cybrshrk I know there has been 3D audio. But it has not been this ambitious. Whereas Dolby Atmos has about 32 discernable sound sources this will have hundreds. You will be able to hear individual raindrops. On top of that they are going to have a way to make it custom to your specific ear. Also Cerny said they customized the equivilent of 2 Cu's to do the sound. Or the equivilent of the processing power if the entire Ps4. It is bonkers and certainly has not been done before.
@nookie_egg Yes they have the video showing how the console is put together are mind-blowing. But it's quality over power and playstation has many many more games and the better 1st party games. I own an xbox and i find it lacking and would rather switch on the playstation anyday.
I do love gears though but find it plastered with in-app £$£$£ these days and some of the o.g xbox games are fantastic.
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