The Last of Us: Part II has been out for a full week now, and it’s dominated our online and offline discussions in that time. Many of you will have finished the campaign now, but if you haven’t, don’t rush – this article is going nowhere. If you do decide to continue scrolling, though, it’s only fair for us to point out that there are major spoilers on this page. In this thread we’ll be discussing key plot beats, in addition to the ending of the game, and inviting you to share your thoughts and opinions on the plot. If you don’t want to be spoiled, please return to the sanctuary of the Push Square homepage through here.
The word divisive gets thrown around a little too readily in our opinion, but it’s fair to say not everyone has fallen in love with The Last of Us: Part II’s plot. The backlash was pre-empted by some rather unfortunate leaks, which were then twisted to fit an agenda. In our opinion, the drama surrounding the leaks has coloured the perception of the final product in some people’s eyes, and that’s an awful shame.
But the contention surrounding the final product seems to centre on one relatively early plot beat: the sudden, brutal murder of Joel. Given our 10/10 review, it’ll surprise few of you that we thought it was brilliant: Naughty Dog was brave enough to kill off one of the series’ most iconic characters within hours. It speaks to the nature of the fiction, in our opinion: no character is safe, and this point is hammered home repeatedly over the course of the campaign.
Of course, it’s a daring move: many had expected another swashbuckling road-trip through infected America with platonic partners Joel and Ellie – instead, that’s snatched away almost immediately. You’ve got to applaud the developer for subverting expectations like that; there’s no danger of it re-treading old ground because it removes any chance of that at the earliest possible opportunity. It’s shocking in the best possible way – and a real gutsy move.
Even more gutsy is the fact that Naughty Dog forces you to play as Joel’s murderer in order to give you perspective on her side of the story. Abby has become a controversial figure among fans, but her redemption arc mirrors that of Joel’s in the first game. She’s a character who’s endured great loss and subsequently done terrible things, but through Lev she finds a new purpose and we visibly see her personality mellow. All of these traits apply to a certain Mr Miller.
It’s been argued that Joel deserved a more heroic send-off – we disagree. Joel may be the “hero” of the first game, but he’s done awful things and it wouldn’t be fitting of the fiction if he were to die in a blaze of glory like, say, John Marston from Red Dead Redemption. This world takes no prisoners, and the reality is that Joel’s luck runs out. He makes a critical judgement error trusting Abby in a hairy situation, and it’s game over from there.
Ellie’s story is much more nuanced. We learn through flashbacks that her relationship with Joel has been tested due to her learning the truth about the Fireflies. By the end of the game we know that she’d decided to try to forgive Joel, only for him to be murdered the next day. Her grief is about more than the father figure she’ll never be able to replace; it’s about all the time she wasted while Joel was alive.
Another contentious point has revolved around Ellie’s decision to spare Abby. While it’s hard not to empathise with Abby once you’ve seen her side of the story, we still believe Ellie made the right decision to end the cycle of violence. By this point in the story, both characters have endured devastating loss due to their thirst for vengeance – and while Abby was ultimately able to issue her revenge, it’s only through Lev that she truly finds the ability to move forward.
Ellie, too, is suffering from PTSD, but deep down she knows that she’ll be inflicting the same fate on Lev should she follow through with her plan. This is what makes The Last of Us 2 so brilliant: there’s layers to the characters which means they’re all capable of good and bad. We see a mellower, more settled Joel through flashbacks – he’s a decent person. But that doesn’t erase all the bad he’s done, and he gets his comeuppance.
The cycle of violence consumes pretty much everyone in the story, apart from its leading ladies: Dina loses the woman she loves and the perfect life she’d dreamed of; Jesse dies; Tommy loses his health and his marriage to Maria; Owen and Mel die; Manny dies. These are the repercussions of Joel’s actions from the first game; it doesn’t matter whether his decision to save Ellie was just, it’s just the consequence of the choices he made.
It’s a bleak story, there’s no doubt about that, and there are holes. Ellie, for instance, murders hundreds of people over the course of the campaign – just not the one she set out to kill. That does require some suspension of disbelief, but it’s also true that she spends the course of the campaign in a state of rage; she’s a nutcase, let’s be honest. But as she ekes the last bit of life out of a weakened, malnourished Abby, she remembers that while she may never be capable of forgiveness, she does have the capacity to try.
It’s powerful stuff, and the perfect cap on one of the greatest games of the generation.
Of course, that’s just our read on the story, and we’re opening this article up to you. We want to know your thoughts on the storyline: do you think Ellie was right to spare Abby? How do you feel about the way Joel was murdered? And where do you want the story to go next? Share your thoughts, with as many spoilers as you please, in the comments section below and check out our The Last of Us 2 guide for more on the game.
Comments 185
Haha at last ! Spoileeeeeers incoming ! ^^
These people scoring it a 1, lmao!
(I doubt most of them even played it) No matter how you look at it, even if you hated the story, there's no way it would be scored that low on a techincal level alone.
I don't have an absolute opinion of the game. I can see how some people think it's the best thing ever and some who believe it's the spawn of evil. I feel like it's a game like all the others.
What I will say is the discussion of violence and murder is obviously coming from people who have never been in any sort of similar situation. Doesn't matter if you know the name of the person or not. Saving Abby will not ease the dozens of other premeditated murders Ellie already committed. Saving the named individual is just fan service.
It was excellent, but the only downside for me was that Abby's part of the game was a bit too long.
Loved the story, the variable combat, the graphics and oh my even when characters were choking each other, the realistic facial expressions almost made me want to drop the controller.
Easy 10 for me this game, Abby ended up becoming my favourite character and I was actually looking forward to beating Ellie up when I was outside the theatre after what she did to Owen and Mel. Ellie throughout the game was jumping to many conclusions about what was happening which weren't even close to the reality. However they both lost those that they loved by choosing revenge first
My only real complaint was Ellies day 2 dragged a little, especially after the amazing open nature of downtown Seattle but Day 3 really picked up the pace and the rest of the game was fantastic
I enjoyed the ending even if it was a little contrived getting there. Possibly they could have just left it with Abby walking out of the theatre and off to find the fireflies and Ellie settling down or even just ending with her setting off for revenge again and losing Dina
Can’t believe that Shiba Inu was behind everything. What a twist.
@RedShirtRod You could argue that most of the kills Ellie performs during gameplay are in self-defence.
@get2sammyb apart from the small fact that it was her putting herself in that position, there's no self defence excuse for Nora and I'd say on dodgy grounds for Mel and Owen too
My short list of random stupid issues with the game.
Joel and Tommy are written to not act like the characters they were in part 1, Owen says the crew would want to turn back after seeing how big Jackson is, how would they not know this after being sent there by a lead from someone? Abby screws over Mel. Abby screws over her military crew that she has served with for years. They set it up to look like Ellie hates dogs, Abby loves dogs. Ellie handling Owen and Mel scene was stupid as hell. The perfect life scene seemed fake entirely. The whole last section of the game. Ellie flashes back to Joel and decided to not kill Abby.....ok. Ellie abandons pretty much everything.
They say they want to subvert expectations. Nothing about this story was fresh, it’s been done before, and way better.
I enjoyed everything but the story.
I'm on board with this game. I wouldn't cut anything, but I wonder if the game would be better if they re-arranged things. Like instead of Ellie's 3 days, then Abby's 3 days, perhaps they should've done Day 1: Ellie-Abby, Day 2: Ellie-Abby, etc.
Aside from that, this game is ace.
Violence breeds violence. The genius about the story is making you care about the “enemies”. Yes their are some eye rolling moments when they insert opinion about some divisive issues but they say it once and move on. Yes, Abby’s arms are a bit on the cartoonish side but I didn’t mind. I really liked playing as her. She felt powerful just by her presence. The ending is ok, it shows that Ellie’s obsession of revenge made her lose everything in her life even after she realized it wasn’t worth it. So it wasn’t a surprised
The encounters is where the game really shines. OMG did I have an amazing time. This is how stealth should be. It’s not perfecr but it’s really, really well done
Great game but not a masterpiece. Better gameplay than the first one for sure.
I haven't played and wasnt interested in the story to start with.
I'll just say I could talk for hours about TLOU (from Joel n Ellie to a wider humanity thoughts) and as a matter of fact I have many times. However I feel this one story could be sumarised in a couple of sentences
@get2sammyb that's how I see it as well. Ellie throughout the first and most of the second game, is forced to kill people through self defense and trying to survive. There is a difference when she decides to start killing out of rage and revenge, which obviously has a huge impact on her.
@Ron22 I wonder if they could have done a Resident Evil and have them as two separate character playthroughs, I mean they effectively do that anyway and it would be a bit weird if in RE2 you got to the end as Claire and before the credits rolled just made you play as Leon to cath up
The game overall is fantastic with some of the best graphics, sound, level design and features for the disabled in the entire game industry. That being said I didn't like story, honestly I would have preferred that Ellie was the one killed and you play as Joel to avenge her.
I was fine playing as Abby for a bit, unfortunately it wasn't just a bit. I'm not in the group of signing petitions to change the story, this is the story that ND wanted to tell and I respect it as such. I happily Platinum the game, so I went through everything.
Now I hope ND after porting it to PS5 will start working on a sweet new ip, my only wish now is for the tlou franchise to be over.
@OmegaStriver one of the very first things you can do in the game as Ellie is stroke a dog, so I'm not so sure about that point. For me Abby's flashbacks showed her loyalty to Owen and the fireflies rather than the Wolves and she wasn't actively trying to go against them
I think this game deserves a 10 in the poll. I found it to be a brilliant, surprising, and an emotionally devastating game. This, along with the first, will stay with me for a long long time. It's been a while since I've been so captivated by a game.
Abby has honestly become my new favorite character in the series. The game also put the player through moments I felt so uncomfortable playing. Abby fighting Ellie in the theatre, and Ellie fighting Abby on the beach. I did not want to do these things, but the game is much better for it.
The flashbacks with Joel and Ellie hit me very hard, and were among my favorite parts of the game. I don't want to type out a novel here, but I was really blown away by the game. It was so ambitious, and the size and scope is so epic. It's Naughty Dog's masterpiece.
I give it a 10/10 for the overall product. I absolutely love the ending and would take the story of this game any day over some redemption arc for Joel like some wanted. He was never a hero or a good guy in the first game, and this respected that presentation and his actions then. I think this game ties very well into how the last game ended. The central theme was hate, and it all tied into that. Abby couldn't let go of her hate for Joel, and it got all of her friends killed in the end. Ellie couldn't let go of hers, and ended up losing Dina and her connection to Joel through the guitar. While it did take the roundabout way, the final scene between Ellie and Joel really drove home why she did what she did. Joel took away her sense of value, and Abby took her chance at reconciliation, essentially destroying her identity a second time.
I kept myself free of spoilers outside of there being some big second act and Joel likely dying, but when the Abby half started I was like "oh ok". There was very famous sequel on a past Playstation console that did a similar thing, albeit much earlier in the game. The one part where it rather dragged was when Abby and Lev were going to the hospital. It played very similarly to the first game, which I can understand the point of thematically, but it comes so far into the second one that it felt rather regressive for that section, particularly when you're going down the building. The rat king fight made up for it though. Having to build up Abby again after going so far with Ellie also felt like a step back. I'm not sure whether I'd have preferred a structure where you jumped back and forth between them for each day, but I can understand and respect why ND built it the way they did. This game was ultimately about Ellie, and moving away from her too soon would have dampened that.
@Juanalf Curious why you would have preferred to play as Joel?
@carlos82 Oh with Nora, Owen, and Mel that's definitely her drive for revenge.
'Joel may be the “hero” of the first game, but he’s done awful things and it wouldn’t be fitting of the fiction if he were to die in a blaze of glory like, say, John Marston '
Come on..
Next Kratos is hanged by the .. in front of his son until death (by someone he just saved from horrible death) and you r going to say its fitting.
The moment the game starts to go off a cliff for me was when we finally got to the meeting with Ellie and Abby. Their fight (particularly being forced to play through it as Abby) felt awful to play imo. No, Naughty Dog, I do not want to bash the square button to bash Ellie's face in.
Too many story plot holes fell through at this point as well (Tommy getting shot in the head yet somehow surviving as an example stands out).
The game had started to go off the rails a bit both gameplay and story-wise a little before then, with one too many high-octane set pieces completely crushing the believability and credibility of the characters and the world itself.
The game's final chapter also felt needless, rushed yet also drawn out, and the pay off at the end just wasn't worth it or satisfying enough as a story conclusion for me. Ellie's fingers getting bitten off, followed by the cringe-inducing struggling to play guitar scene just did not resonate with me at all.
The whole project was almost redeemed with a heartfelt yet tragic reveal at the end that Ellie and Joel had agreed to try to make amends, and the final scene of Ellie back at the house walking away from the farm was well done.
Overall I really enjoyed the majority of the game, just felt the final few hours somewhat ruined the experience overall.
@get2sammyb I would say looking at only the kills during the cutscenes I could definitely see Ellie make that choice at the end. It's the choices during the actual game that differ. Anytime you make a decision to attack first to neutralize the threat it's premeditated. It sticks with you the same as if you were setting a showdown with you're nemesis. It's a drawback of giving your players choices. Even though it's just tactics it can still affect the validity of your character's decisions.
On a side note I forgot to mention above someone needs to teach these people how to clear an enter a room. These guys are way too trusting 😆
@get2sammyb I can’t help but wonder if the reasons loads are saying that they would rather play as Joel is due to their own personal biases. When they play the first game, they can almost forget about the exact same themes in that game as in TLOU2. Except now it’s ‘pandering’ and ‘political’ since you play as two different female characters.
The gameplay, set pieces, sound design, attention to detail and all of that was absolutely mind blowing and I do appreciate.
The story on the other hand just felt forced. I mean it's not terrible and I didn't hate it but it definitely is not a 10/10 game.
The whole abby section went on for way too long and I had to roll my eyes as I knew what they were doing to the plot. The santa Barbara plot was just pointless and I feel they could of tweaked the story so that it had a better flow with abby actually dying at the end.
I mean ellie lost everything and everyone and she still isnt going to get revenge? The whole game happened so that she could move on? PTSD doesn't work that way and abby would just be another notch on the murder belt
@Jslade for the first fight I was ready to bash Ellie's face in after what she did at the aquarium but the last fight on the beach felt a bit unnecessary
@thefirst was it zealous? I didn't spend much time looking at it to be honest
@carlos82 Abby spent over 3 years with these people and was admired enough to supposed to have lead the assault on the island. She is loyal to whatever benefits her. She is a POS. She also was thrilled to kill Dina but thought, oh this is making me look bad to Lev.
Edit: For many story segments Abby didn’t give a crap about the Fireflies, Owen did.
I think it's fantastic but I'm not surprised some people are being babies about it. The fact is, some people simply didn't accept what the story was offering because of the way Joel dies.
I personally was a bit taken back when we started playing as Abby and I was just waiting for it to go back to normal but once it became apparent we'd been Metal Gear Solid 2'd I was fine with it. By the end they'd totally won me over.
Long story short - at the beginning I couldn't wait to kill Abby and at the end I was begging Ellie not to. That to me is what makes this so compelling.
@zimbogamer most of the people Ellie was was her own doing not Abby, I think that's the point as her own quest for revenge ultimately lead her to lose everything she loved
@OmegaStriver to be fair at that point she'd literally just come away from seeing her former lover and friend being murdered by these people
@johncalmc I agree with this. When I realized Abby was going to be the second half (It dawned on me in the Home Depot-esque building when I saw a full skill tree), I was like "Oh, this is weird, but let's see where they are going with this", but it seems like others were "NO! Where's Ellie!?" and shut down for the entire half.
@get2sammyb I know I'm in the minority but Joel was everything for me and the person I connected to most, I wasn't really a fan of Ellie to begin with but still she got more fleshed out in Part 2 and I actually connected with her a bit.
Some here are saying Joel wasn't a good guy? Is there anyone in either game that would be able to quality as 'good'? Everyone is a walking talking mass murderer so that line makes no sense.
Overall I'm satisfied and hope it continues to break records despite me not feeling the story, I'm very interested in what ND is working on next and how they will use what they learned from Part II to make their next game.
@OmegaStriver Eye for an Eye. Abby had no way of knowing that Ellie didn't know that Mel was pregnant. Her jacket was open when Abby found her and anyone who isn't legally blind could tell Mel was pregnant. Abby was simply doing what she thought Ellie did.
@carlos82 no I understand their perspective of the story but it just didn't flow with me. I still think they could of finished the story in seattle. I didn't mind playing as abby but half the game? By the end of her section I was just wanting the game to be over really and is the story great if I am bored with it?
I dono it just felt half baked. Again I did enjoy everything else about the game and was constantly blown away with the visuals and details. I also enjoyed the gritty violence.
My only criticism is on length, I think the game would have benefited being a bit trimmed down and streamlined. I think a lot of the time it felt one or two encounters too many to get to the next story beat. Took me 25 hours to finish it, and I would rather have that be closer to 18, so not a huge amount.
Aside from that, loved everything else. Story was brave and great, liked the gameplay enough, and contrary to most people I've seen online, I didn't find it a complete harrowing downer. The game was serious, and dealt with dark themes overall, but I found plenty of moments of levity and fun, and ended on a positive note overall. I had a blast playing through this, 9/10 for me.
@DrClayman I agree. The whole abby section could of been more streamlined. It basically felt like I was starting the game from scratch again (build you skill tree up, slowly find new weapons etc). Also I like ellie so no matter what I think of abby (I thought some of her story was decent) I still want ellie to come out on top so the fight scenes when u play as abby have no impact when they are against ellie.
@zimbogamer yeah I think its a little long and could probably have done with ending in Seattle. Personally I enjoyed playing as Abby for half the game but wonder if it could have worked being split into two campaigns, or at the very least Abby should have been involved in the marketing as the game telegraphs her very early on anyway
Anyone have any thoughts on the final chapter, in particular the group that capture Ellie and Abby?
At this point, 20+ hours into a deeply detailed story, I really didn't care about this new faction and their motives. It all felt unnecessary and at odds with how the game portrayed "enemies" during the main bulk of the game.
@carlos82 yeah to me it kind of felt like they blew their load for the first part of the game. The infected also just seemed like an afterthought too. I was hoping that they would focused on more of the infected storyline mixed in with a revenge plot. Maybe ellie actually sacrificing herself at the end to the fireflies or something I dono. Overall I am glad I played the game but I it still falls short over the original which makes me wonder if the sequel should of ever taken place
@Nah900 “Nah” staying true to your namesake 😂😂
Oh and while I'm here, my criticisms:
1. It's too long. For me the entire last bit of Ellie hunting down Abby could've been a cutscene. Not sure we needed another gang randomly being thrown into the mix and the game was already long enough.
2. Playing as Abby randomly for like five minutes at the start meant that when we played as Abby later I wasn't surprised. Seems like a poor decision to me.
Neither derailed it.
I've just started day 3 so I've skipped the article and comments. I'm just here to say that when poor Shimmer died, Ellie never mentioned anything about it. She had that trusty steed for a good 4 years! Heartless cow.
@roe yeah the whole santa Barbara plot was pointless. When it started I was like "here we go again I suppose". I felt as if they just added it to pad the game length.
@roe Running through Santa Barbara as Ellie was my favorite part of the game. The game didn't care about that group either because it really doesn't matter. Ellie makes a note of that in her journal. Just another group killing people for misguided reasons. People suck. Ellie was about to be just another one of those people until she let Abby go on the beach.
@roe yeah that part felt shoehorned in just to get to the ending that they wanted, they probably should have just left it at the farm with Dina threatening to leave if Ellie goes to seek revenge again and Abby off to find the fireflies
I think ND need to seriously hire a story editor for their next project. A couple of edits here and there to the story and game length and this could have been a masterpiece. I think the main reason I am disappointed is that it was so close to being a 10/10 but some of the story failed to deliver. A solid 8/10
@Ron22 hmm interesting view. I didn't really see it that way, but that's why I asked to see if it worked for anyone. Thanks for the reply
@ApostateMage I wish more of the game was like that opening area, it was so well done navigating with the tourist map and have her marking locations as you discover or hear about them. A real shame they dumped that and the horse so early
I'm okay with the story decisions in the game, but I do understand the criticism. Part 2 does kind of rob the original of it's moral ambiguity by coming down pretty definitively on the side of 'Joel was in the wrong'. But seeing the story's conflict from all sides is what fleshes out the world, and I think it stays true to what the story's all about. Remember, the infected aren't the real monsters of this game.
And as for the discourse, it kind of reminds me of the Sekiro argument in reverse. You don't have to like the creative decisions, but at least respect the creator's vision. If it's okay for a game to be mechanically challenging, then it's okay for one to be narratively challenging as well.
But can we all just take a moment to respect the awesomeness of the AI. I mean they keep you moving and constantly aware of them. No place is safe to hide. Checking under trucks, fanning out the long grass, interweaving routes. More game developers need to create that sense of tension
@Ron22 Except Ellie was reacting to their aggression, Abby was enjoying herself while smiling.
I bought this game specifically to counter act all the haters from the leaks. I never pay full price or buy a game day one but the hatred the game got (ironic as it’s of the main themes) prior to release made me buy it to support Naughty Dog.
I enjoyed playing it and it kept my attention - unusual with a 25+ hour game.
I would change a couple of things if I was the director (I’m not, so I have to accept their vision rather than demand a rewrite! Which the haters wouldn’t buy anyway if it was re-written!).
I would change the 12 hours Ellie then 12 hours Abby. I would have them mixed so day 1 Ellie, Day 1 Abby etc. Perhaps start the game with Abby and her dad in the woods.
Going by the trailers I knew Joel was dead but thought he might be a ghost / vision haunting Ellie throughout the game begging her to turn back and not avenge him and live her life to the fullest.
I would make Abby look more realistic and similar to her look at the beach. She would look identical to Ellie highlighting they are both sides of the same coin. Her muscular arms were ridiculous and made Arnie look small!
Trim a bit of fat / story. It could have ended at the farm and that would be an acceptable ending.
Walking Ellie to the beach and realising that she has lost and sacrificed everything for revenge was a real eye opener.
Seeing the carnage Ellie has wrought from Abby’s perspective was a great artistic device. You start as Abby knowing you spent the last 12 hours killing all her friends in violent and viscous ways so these characters are ghosts.
The final fight reminded me of the final boss fight in MGS4. Two old, tired battered fighters having one last battle.
Every time Joel was on screen made me feel sad and remorseful which is great storytelling and acting by Naughty Dog.
The moral of this game is simply that life in an apocalypse is awful! There is no good or evil only grey. The cycle of revenge must be broken. And even at the end of the world humankind will revert to its base and violent instincts. I.e forming groups/ cults / militias to wage war for land that it doesn’t need, the hate of the other etc.
All the haters saying the storylines a trope or a basic revenge story that’s been done before and better. Yeah ok, when was the last time a lesbian and her pregnant Jewish lover and her Asian ex boyfriend travelled across Seattle to avenge the death of the guy who doomed humanity?
Gameplay and graphic are superb as to be expected.
A good but depressing game. On par with the first game 9 out of 10.
Does anyone else wish more of the game was like downtown Seattle? Where we had the map Ellie was marking, riding the horse and exploring various buildings, finding clues as to where some loot might be, finding gate codes, power supplies and just a lot more exploration in general before it became much more linear for the rest of the game.
One more thought is I always thought the game was at its best when there were 2 of you together and all the dialogue that's shared because of it
@OmegaStriver Abby doesn't know that. And if Ellie had tried to explain, I doubt Abby would've bought that someone as capable as Ellie had just demonstrated in that boss fight was unable to disable someone that's visible pregnant without killing them.
@carlos82 oh for sure. The exploration bit of Seattle was one of the strongest parts of the game
@carlos82 I would've preferred more sections like that sprinkled throughout the game, but I'm kind of glad the game as a whole was linear. That section was exhausting (in a good way, for sure), but I fear it wouldn't have worked the entire time.
Everyone here makes great points, glad to see people taking a reasoned and balanced approach.
My only question as I didn't see it mentioned, when Ellie leaves the farm, do you think she is going to Jackson to ask Dina for forgiveness, or just wandering off to restart her life?
I took the last conversation with Joel to mean that she was going to ask Dina to forgive her, like she was going to try to forgive Joel. She realized she had lost everything, leaving the guitar behind meant she was leaving all the horrible things in her old life behind and trying to start fresh with Dina.
Ending was brilliant. Abby was the one who walked away in seattle. Ellie needed a chance to do the same. She finally learns to forgive Abby, and through that, Joel for taking away her choice, and ultimately herself, for being alive.
On the subject of the game's pacing, I've heard a few people criticise the way the story was told and suggesting alternatives.
I actually thought the pacing was great for the most part. I felt like Abby's side of the story went on a little too long, but I liked how it fleshed out some of the other characters and obviously developed her story as well.
I enjoyed the flashbacks on both sides, and felt that the gameplay never stuck on one particular type for too long. It was well balanced between story beats, action sequences and exploration.
I felt like this was lost from Abby's Day 3 though, and there were too many boss fights and repetitive gameplay from here out.
Some people also commented that the reveal at the end felt cheap, arguing that hiding Ellie's intention to try to forgive Joel felt like a poor plot device and unfair on the player. I disagree, I really liked this final twist to the story and thought it brought the whole thing back together pretty well.
The hardest thing in the game I've had to deal with was to stop playing fetch with the dog! Bear is so cute! 😭
Right I'll get my positives out of the way first since I can finally talk about it without having talk around spoilers.
The game is incredibly well made, with an obsessive attention to detail. The gameplay is a huge improvement over the first one and all the actors put in top notch performancs. The Joel & Ellie flashbacks were great because it was the only things that made it feel like the first game. Part 2 should have been just that.
Now the things I don't like.
Joel's death is a massive problem because it removes the key dynamic that made the first game so special. It makes Abby and her crew so irredeemable, yes Joel did bad things but what he did at the end of the first game was driven by love and impulse. Abby's was both cold and cruel. And her so called redemption arc isn't handled well at all because we're meant to believe that this woman who killed a defenceless man in front of his loved ones ,all of sudden is wanting redemption through a couple of people she knows for less then a day. At least Joel's actions were motivated by an entire game's worth of character building between him and Ellie.
It also doesn't help that all the new characters aren't given any depth whatsoever.
Jesse is just a character that we know nothing about other he's the father of Dina's kid.
Dina is the same, I never bought her relationship with Ellie because she was just there, their relationship gets no meaningful build, it's just their together, then she sits on the sidelines then they live on a farm. All I got from her as a character was she's from new Mexico and she's Jewish.
Manny I think spat on Joel's corpse so yeah well done ND making him remotely likable.
Mel at least showed a touch of remorse but she was a heavily pregnant woman who went all the way up to Jackson on a revenge mission in that world and when she died U couldn't care less.
Owen is a bloody horrible character and Abby liking him, let alone sleeping with him makes her even worse as a person.
Lev is trans and that's it. Because honestly what else is there to him?
Yara had a bit more but again not much.
As I said in other comments, what made the first game so special was the relationship between Joel & Ellie that despite been in a bleak world it had plenty of hope and levity and once that's gone then what else is there other then a horrible world?
People argue that ND wanted players to feel like that and that it's good that they took risks. Non of that makes the game's story worth playing through.
ND could have made a much more worthwhile story involving Joel & Ellie over a course of a few years in Jackson where the real consequences of Joel's actions should have been his relationship breakdown with Ellie rather then through a bunch of new characters that you can't root for.
ND simply dropped the ball by not understanding what Joel and Ellie meant to people. Instead they left them as broken people both literally and figuratively. And that's not what people wanted for those characters.
And I really don't want ND to do another one unless it's a Joel & Ellie prequel story because if they aren't going to do it properly then I'd rather they didn't bother at all.
@AdamNovice very well put. I don't really have much of a problem with most of the issues you've stated there and was able to get past that and love a lot of the game, but it's hard to disagree with what you've said.
@roe I honestly wish I was in the same position as you mate. Cos if I had my way I would love every game I've played but I have to be honest with myself. I absolutely don't be grudge those that enjoyed the game.
@kappasig390 I hope to god that she's returning to Jackson to ask for Dina's forgiveness. I love that girl so much, wonderful character.
Fighting Ellie as Abby is one of the hardest things I have ever done in a video game. I legit felt sick doing it. The only "Boss" fight I have wanted to lose.
Fighting Abby as Ellie was rough too. I can't believe they got me to care about Abby. Laura Bailey is legit the only person that could pull that off...
Wouldn’t have minded a few more skills to learn like your character learning to whistle to lure, distract or misdirect enemies.
When you take a hostage having options like MGS I.i get info, lure enemies.
More situations to set the infected against the various factions.
@thefirst
Your spot on. Anybody believes those guys could make a cure like that is ridiculous. Also I always think of when Joel and Ellie got captured by the fireflies. Joel was trying to save Ellie from drowning and the guys come and knock him out. Those are the good guys? What a joke. I never understood why people insist Joel is selfish too. What the heck, its Ellie who was begging for protection and Joel finally became what SHE wanted. Her only family, adoptive father and protector.
@Splat Exactly my thoughts too. Laura Bailey is the only person who could've pulled this role off and she did it amazingly. While I still have my grudge against Abby (come on, she kills one of my favorites of all time) by the end of the story I could fully understand her.
And that fight vs Ellie was painful, especially when Ellie loses at the end and has her hand broken, and ALMOST loses Dina too. I couldn't breathe in those few minutes. But daggum, that fight was brilliantly designed. Not only Ellie is terrifying in that fight, but she's also paralleling her own fight against David. That was masterfully done. It was very painful to hit my baby girl with Abby, but I got myself killed a few times intentionally to make up for it...
@LiamCroft amen to that, Dina was my favorite new character in the game.
That reminds me, I saw a lot of people complaining about the quality of the writing, not the story but the dialogue and what not. I thought this was the most natural dialogue and realistically written characters in any game I've ever played. Just one of many criticisms of the game I don't understand I suppose.
The more I think about the story of the game the more I think it's fitting to the world, the theme they chose, the characters.
Joel is a sh*tty person, Tess admits that herself in the first game, he did some pretty dark stuff I'm sure despite not even seeing it. He did ambushes, he did torture. Then he saved a girl...is that enough to redeem him? Of course no. He deserved a brutal death, not dying from old age. The thing is that if Tlou 1 was about Abby, you would love to keep playing with her and not with Ellie. Abby had a right to kill Joel, he killed her damn father that seemed to be a good man, a doctor that wanted to save the world.
Of course in that midgame when I start to play with Abby and I start see weapon upgrades, pills etc, I'm like "omfg no! PLEASE NO". But then I make myself play and by the time I am at the hospital scene (Which is freaking brilliant btw) I am like "Please Abby get the f*** away from that huge monster clump of clickers".
At the end I still wanted Ellie to kill Abby but then I thought about it...and she finally could see Joel alive instead of his deathbed, she was done with it, ready to move on...she made the right decision! She lost so much, her girl, her "son", her "father"...maybe you can argue that all she did was for nothing, but it wasn't. She ended up saving Abby's and Lev's life!
The game was amazing, the story had a few rough moments but ultimately I think it was pretty good for this franchise!
I miss Joel, of course, look at my profile picture! I had Joel's avatar on psn for like 3 years after the game! When Ellie grabs his coat and smells it I almost cried...but at the end, when you see Joel cry because Ellie was willing to forgive him it just broke my heart...we lost a beloved character, yes it's hard, but he had 20 years + 4 with Ellie to live in the apocalypse, we know he did redeem himself kinda, so he just went to meet Sarah again (hopefully if that sort of stuff could happen).
Overall, the game is the best game this year by far and one of the most provocative, well made, designed and THE MUSIC OMG, games of all time.
Also, see Kindafunnygames Spoilercast with Neil, Troy and Ashley to see how much they love the characters and how hard it was for them to make this damn game.
I gave it an 8/10. I enjoyed the game but its a touch long imo and wasn't fused on the ending. I know it made sense but man i was depressed afterwards. The person i had protected throughout the first game was so completely broken and no idea if she went to get dina back or not. Abby was fine to play but never preferred her to ellie. Story overall was great as was the gameplay. Definite highlight was the hospital boss fight. That creature was messed up
I wanted absolutely nothing to do with Abby at first because I knew going in what she was about to do, but once I saw her side of things I grew to really like Abby. She really grows as a person over the course of the game and I feel regrets what she had done because it led to all of her friends dying. Her relationship with Lev perfectly mirrors that of Joel and Ellie from the first game. As for Ellie’s choice to spare Abby, I believe Ellie realized at the last minute going through with it wasn’t going to bring Joel back or make her feel any better about the horrible sh— she had to do to, and that she’d be no better than Abby by leaving Lev to probably die a prolonged, agonizing death him being unable to defend himself whatsoever given his condition at the end of the game. At the end of the day, I didn’t want to see either Ellie or Abby die, even though what she did to Joel was absolutely horrendous. This game really makes you think, and the themes of revenge, bitterness, and trauma really stuck out to me, along with showing the human side of all these different characters. It’s a morally grey world, no two sides are in the right or wrong. By the end I was crying like a baby for nearly 30-40 minutes afterwards and got like no sleep after all that. It really resonated with me, I thought it was bloody brilliant, albeit incredibly tragic. Definitely gonna need some time away before I can play through it again. I’m not ready to weep like that again so soon after just beating it once.
@Danloaded i think the ending is all about perspective. The way I saw the ending was that Ellie had lost everything she loved but was finally at peace with herself. The years after tlou were filled with doubt about the person you love the most and then her thirst for revenge must of destroyed her mentally. At the end she forgave Abbie and then in the final flashback Joel (which broke my heart) She May have lost everything but I am more hopeful for her now
@AFCC did you play the ground zero level with 7.1 headphones? The 3D audio in that section was unbelievable
Story telling failed for me wasnt the game i wanted , very mixed on this but the gameplay omg so good , i cant do spoilers so ignored every thing about it, got my copy and played it a solid 3 days im tapping the square button to kill abbie and the game stops me 😂 im just glad uncharted ended perfectly.
@Fuzzymonkeyfunk Sadly I don't own a pair of good headphones I'm saving for those PS5 ones
@AFCC
'a good man, a doctor that wanted to save the world.'
That was the question in the first game, 'what is it to be human?'
Is murdering a little girl against her will for an impossible hope? Is that being human?
A good little girl murdering man?
@roe "No, Naughty Dog, I do not want to bash the square button to bash Ellie's face in."
I hated that too. But I think that's entirely the point of why it was there... to make you feel some hate, some reluctance, and to force you into doing something which felt very uncomfortable.
@JJ2 Which is completely ignoring what Marlene says to Joel in the lift. Ellie wanted to give them the chance to find a cure, and Joel knew it. I'm not saying I'd have made a different decision, but it was a selfish one.
Well, my opinions are generally positive. I liked the direction the story took, I liked Abby's character and story arc, I liked its technical advancements in terms of detail and visual fluidity, I loved how flexible the gameplay and world design were.
But the one moment that stands out for me was the hotel/hospital level. If Naughty Dog will ever make another horror game, that's a good example of how effective an atmosphere they can make.
Also that Rat King was freaking awesome, design-wise. Wish we got more Infected breeds besides this one and the Shambler.
Loved: Every scene with Joel & Elle; even the arguing. This relationship means so much to people I don’t think even Naughtdog can believe.
Hated: Doing Joel that early in the game. I will never be THAT shocked playing a video game again. I woulda done towards end or middle. Also playing it so outta order was intolerable. Just for me.
Loved: Elle saving Abbys life at the end. That way she wouldn’t turn into me.
Hated: Abby. (Until she told Lev you’re my people)
Loved: Every game with last of us, god of war, or uncharted in the title. And the fact that this game topped them all. Barely. (TLOU)
Hated: In thirty years of gaming I have to mention; punching Elle in the face (as Abby) and choking her out made me so cringey! I mean like pedo filthy. Maybe that’s just me.
Loved: Elles reaction to Dinas kiss.
Hated: Tommy’s slow turn into a dual grave digger and his maiming. Dina and JJ leaving. More sad than hate I guess.
I'd give it a 6. Gameplay is great but not different, visuals sre stunning, animations are superb but story is dogsh*t and very generic. Characters are uninteresting. Ellie and Dina's relationship doesn't really make you care. That and the ending is such a slap in the face with no resolve.
@JJ2 it was 1 life for literally bringing back humankind the way it was.
@Nepp67 Sorry for double posting. Anyway you say the gameplay is great but not different. So you don't enjoy 90% of today's games gameplay that much because they are all similar? Cause they all fall in 3ps, fps, racer, fighting, sports, you know...
@AFCC I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's similar to the first game. The only thing they add is a dodge button and proning unless you count the "jumping" as a useful mechanic. It's still great regardless cause of how great the melee combat is.
Just wrapped it up, it was ALOT longer than I was expecting but an easy 10/10 for me. Started the game wanting Abby dead (like everybody I assume) but in the end she was probably my favourite character
Looking forward to a TLOU3?
I gave it a 7. Fun at first, but really outstays its welcome. And the story is a bit (alot)poo.
You can have Abby rescue at basket of kittens from a burning building, what she did at the start of the game was just sadistic. She's just an awful character, and having the game try to shove the fact that she is a decent person is just insulting to me. And having to play her for as long as you do? Talk about bringing the momentum to a screeching halt....
Too many WTF moments, and that ending was crap, really crap.
I won't be buying The Last Of Abby I tell you that.
Ah that feels better😃
@carlos82 Abby was awesome to play as. Her story was so exciting for me and that escape sequence after her hanging was a holy ***** moment.
@Ichiban I don’t know man. Joel killed her dad and her entire movement in one second. I could see her wanting to beat the life out of him. Let’s not forget Joel used to be a hunter. He used to prey on innocent people to survive. His death was justified in the game. But man it was heartbreaking to see those flashbacks of Joel and Ellie as she pushed him away. But that’s life.
@Hungerjames I loved and hated Tommy so much in this game. The scene with him hunting Manny and Abby was incredible. Him broken near the end telling Ellie she promised him was so sad.
I assume there’s gonna be a third game on the PS5 at one point. I wonder if Abby will be in it, love my girl Abby
@thefirst - Those things would still be a problem, and sure, there's always the possibility things could still not work out, but the reason why the vaccine was so important, was because if you had it, you at least had a chance at overcoming them. Without a vaccine, there really is no hope; at best, you could delay the inevitable for a short while, but in the end, without it, humanity is doomed. That's the situation in a nutshell, and it's why the Fireflies (Marlene specifically) made the call to conduct the surgery on Ellie while she was still unconscious (that, and they were running on borrowed time). It's also why that one doctor was a lot more justified in trying to keep Joel from dooming humanity, than for Joel to try and stop them from killing Ellie (thus dooming humanity) just because he couldn't personally handle losing another 'daughter' (Because let's be honest; the reason Joel intervened wasn't because they 'didn't ask permission', but because he had grown attached to her, and couldn't bear losing her like he lost Sarah).
The story of Joel and Ellie was always grounded in reality and it made the story believable and relatable. When Joel gets impaled on a spike, you really feel he's in danger because obviously he would be.
In Part 2, characters get stabbed, shot, choked, and left to die all over the place. It requires complete suspension of disbelief
I'm really not enjoying it. Its bloated, poorly paced, thinly plotted and boring as hell
Reading all the post I can agree with the point that ultimately a great game in of itself it did not avoid the sink hole of becoming the Walking Dead (which is no longer about Zombies but now the ‘villain of the season’).
Also it, albeit hard not to, did employ the GoT writing style of no one is safe, and kill off main billing often to add shock that has been replicated so much now in media that it is now expected rather than shocking.
If these were two books I were to read I would, taken as a whole, feel rather “seen it and checked all the boxes.” However, as a visual media bravo to the art department.
A bold and groundbreaking game.
Top notch production values, sublime and gripping gameplay and a powerful story told in a daring fashion, which, whatever your view on what was done, you will not forget.
I gave it a 9 because I thought the Abby section was much longer than it needed to be...then again if it was shorter would I have empathised with her by the end of the game?
Also the Ellie theatre fight had me squirming like nothing I’d ever played before! I did not want to hit her...I desperately wanted to switch back to controlling Ellie...I felt disgusted and was out of sync with my character...Abby wanted to smash Ellie’s face in...discombobulating.
In terms of vision, gameplay and technical prowess, those things are 10 out of 10.
@phil_j
'Ellie wanted.,,'
13 years old little girl at the hands of a fanatic group is what I see. There was a reason why Tommy left them.
Call me selfish for protecting my daughter from fanatics too. It's like people think parenthood is a selfish act.
Edit
The funny part is I like creators like ND They try to make people think with thoughts provoking themes. The thing is people dont think but just accept whatever is thrown at them INSTEAD.
Resetting the three days when Ellie comes face to face with Joel’s killer was pointless. The pace suffers greatly. Walking (slowly, many times) as a character you don’t want to play as because the writers want to give her some depth that doesn’t go very deep beyond being generic. Here are two characters to care for to show how great Abby is as a person. Abby's campaign feels like DLC.
Manny spits on Joel's lifeless body, but don't worry you'll fall in love with him as a generic soldier later on when you challenge him to a shooting gallery contest. Henry and Sam had better characterisations than Abby or her colleagues and they weren't in The Last of Us for very long which makes remembering the pair all the more powerful. Isaac looked menacing in the story trailer and I was interested to see how Ellie would cross his path, but of course he is completely useless in the game. The sex scene was ridiculous.
I feel as though we were spoilt in the first game. The writing, the character development, the pacing. But I didn't expect things to be planned this badly. The only thing that improved in Part 2 is the stealth gameplay. The creative decisions were poor. I didn't mind Joel being killed early in the game, but I would of thought having Ellie being so motivated and with much desire for vengeance, we would see out the rest of the game as her. The length of Abby's campaign was crazy. It's like Neil fell in love with the character and wouldn't stop until you felt the same. He wanted to surprise people and stay clear of predictable fan service but surely there were so many better ways to produce a Part 2. We got as many flashbacks as Ellie & Joel as we did with Abby after her father died. So much in the script sounds forced. Heroism as Abby tells Lev ''your my people', generic love story with Owen "I don't want to talk about last night", back to hero worship "Mel's wrong, your a good person".
Then the Uncharted-like run through the decaying Seraphite village just completely feels out of sync with Ellie’s story and the overall pacing. It’s like Resident Evil 5 or 6. I didn’t mind the WLF versus the Seraphites storyline, but it would of made sense to experience it as Ellie, not a WLF deserter who many just can't accept.
I know it is not one of the selling points of the game but I was still disappointed in the lack of life and things to do in Jackson. Given Naughty Dog's wide-linear formula and how well the At Sea chapter was done in Uncharted 4, I expected something better. The Aquarium is more interactive with Abby than Jackson is with Ellie.
Some of Naughty Dog's creative decisions over the years have been strange. Adding Nathan Drake a brother in Uncharted 4 even though it is revealed in Uncharted 3 he is an only child. Picking the boring Nadine over Charlie Cutter (whole stole every Uncharted 3 scene he was in), to be Chloe's partner in the Lost Legacy. And now Ellie not being able to see Part 2 through by herself. Ellie is a strong enough character to see through a 20-25 hour campaign. Also ND excluding the multiplayer because it's become too big when you already know your single player is going to be this divisive doesn't sound like a good idea.
I'll play through Ellie's chapters again. The Finding Strings chapter was brilliantly done. And Seattle looks gorgeous in the game. But this just feels like a wasted opportunity. I didn't expect to love the game as much as the original PS3 title, but I expected better handling.
I'm nearing the end of Abbys half now and I've gotta say that I've been pleasently surprised by Abbys half of the game, I've found it a lot more interesting than Ellies and I enjoy the dynamic she has with Lev.
This is slowly becoming one of my favourite games and Abby has really grown on me... Welp time to punch more cultists in the face!
First off, everybody (well, almost) playing this game and discussing its story is just testament to what Naughty Dog achieved here. They wanted the players to get out of their comfort zones and do things that that don't like. I am suffering from PTSD after this game but loved every bit of it.
ONE THOUGHT: I would have liked the game to give you a choice during Ellie vs Abby standoff at the theater as to who you want to play as. That would have been the perfect way to underscore who you sympathise with. Afterwards, there should be 2 different endings, depending on who you chose.
Edit: if we ever get The Last of Us 3 I would like it to be a prequel built around Joel and Tess' smuggling adventures (pre-Ellie of course).
Sitting watching the credits now and I loved the whole thing, brilliant game and piece of art all round. I liked Abby despite her killing Joel, she grows on you as you plays as her!
The game is good, but it's not breath of the wild or Divinity Original Sin 2 good. Still, it's a solid 8-9 and I'm probably enjoying my second playthrough more. I felt like a lot of the diversity or representation in the game came first then the characters followed. Personally, I prefer to do it the other way round when creating characters. It all comes from a good place though so hard to be too critical. Charlie Brooker and his writing is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The characters always come first in Black Mirror and it shows.
It has to be one of the best games I have ever played. I seriously do not get all the hate for it. Joel's death seems to have really irritated a lot of players to the point where they won't buy the game or simply give it a terrible score. Which is laughable imo. Abby has to be the best character in the whole game. She is just so likable and I do wish you play as her mostly if they make a third. I also started to really like Jesse, and then BOOM. Was a huge shock for me. So many scenes stick out for me, especially the sniper scene and the boss fight (boy was that scary). The flashbacks with Joel were outstanding too. Oh wow...I honestly did not think ND could have surpassed the first. But, as they did with Uncharted 2, they have done it again with this. Thank you so much.
@JJ2 Moral ambiguity is a thing. It's not so much people "thinking what they're told," but rather people having different worldviews and philosophies. While you may think the right choice was obvious, I found it much less clear cut.
I can understand why Joel did what he did in the hospital - but understanding and sympathizing with his motivations does not mean it was the morally correct decision. He murdered an entire hospital of people - including an unarmed doctor - because he didn't want to lose his own surrogate daughter. And though the Fireflies also do a number of morally ambiguous things, their motivations are still some of the most noble in the game's universe - they're working to find a cure for something that has destroyed civilization and caused billions of deaths.
Of course, we don't know if they would have been successful in finding a cure - Ellie's extremely rare (or perhaps even one-of-a-kind) immunity was the best lead they had, but perhaps the knowledge they gained from her brain would have only lead to a dead end. ...On the other hand, it's possible they may have actually discovered something valuable - in which case Joel's actions just cost many, many more people their lives.
Beyond all that, Joel did take away Ellie's agency - and lied to her about it. Yes, she was only a young teenager - making a choice of that magnitude for someone else is, well... Problematic.
Look: His parental instinct is admirable and very human - but once again, I'm not convinced that his feelings as a father outweigh the feelings of the fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters that he killed, and potentially millions more who will die but who could have been saved by a cure.
TL;DR - The world of "The Last of Us" is not a black-and-white one - if you think the right choice is obvious, then you're probably not thinking through the consequences of the choices being made.
@Sondheimist
'Of course, we don't know if they would have been successful in finding a cure '
I'm a man of facts
Replay from when the ***** knock Joel out when he was trying to save Ellie. Feel what you would be like in his shoes. In the end, Tommy community is the future. It's just plain obvious. Not waiting for 20 years to 'save' humanity. Murdering a little girl is a poor sample of 'humanity'.
'-because he didn't want to lose his own surrogate daughter'
Nope you still dont get it.
It's not about him but you wont admit it.
Edit
And no, he s not a 'good' guy. He lost his soul long ago. Again, its not about him. Hes a bit like dirty Harry haha. Not,a 'good' guy. But kicking asses.
Edit 2
'Their motivations are still some of the most noble'
You dont know that. They ve been trying to take over the power. Its basically a para military faction. Even if, as impossible and unrealistic as it is, they manage to make a cure from killing a little girl, how would they use this power?
Ellie and Joel singing Wayfaring Stranger by Johnny Cash during the end credits was about the saddest thing possible.
@MightyDemon82 oh yea Joel definitely had it coming. As much as I like him as a character, dude deserved to die many times over. The final flashbacks with Ellie and Joel were heartbreaking and put the ending into perspective after she let Abby go.
I just finished playing a couple hours. And I must say at first I was completely devastated and basically hated the ending. Then I let it sink in a little and now I'm just devastated
I give it a 10 out of 10.
No game has made me crap my pants as much and made me wish I had invested in brown ones. 😜
The scene with that huge clicker and the part with the smaller clicker that drops off and attacks you later on was epic. That alone was worth my money.
There was so many moments in the game that impressed me. Loved the game so much and hope and prey for the multiplayer to come out too. Amazing naughty dog 😉by far my favourite developer ☺️
My feelings toward the game were all over the place as I played it. Towards the end I really didn't know how to feel. But with some time to think about it... It's a really great game. I'd give it a 9 out of 10 while TLOU1 would get a perfect 10. I don't mind Joel being killed at the beginning of the game. I will admit I did miss him... but that is the point... it gives the story more validation. I have nothing against gays but it felt a hair overkill at a certain point. I thought the big massive arms on Abby was sort of weird... but later on it made sense to really show what part of a timeline we are watching. It also shows just how pressed Abby was set on for revenge. My only complaints in the game is Abby's part sort of felt a bit too long but that isn't a bad thing. Also while I understand we are gaining insight into her life and the characters around her... i sort of also just didn't care all that much as weird as that sounds.The gameplay and graphics were amazing. Wasn't a fan of the open world area in the beginning... felt like padding. But the more i think about it, the more i liked the game. Altho I can't see myself replay it. Not now or maybe until an upgraded ps5 version comes out. As pretty as the game was.. the 30fps was painful being mainly a pc gamer LOL!! still... solid 9 out of 10 here. I could totally understand why anyone would have issues with it. It's not for everyone.
ALSO I REALLY REALLY DISLIKE how Naughty Dog ups the difficulty in all their games x10 at the last chapter or 2... WHYYYYYY? So annoying!
I was waiting for a thread like this. I loved TLOU 1 even though I wouldn’t say the gameplay is the best, especially the boss fights and repetitiveness, but anyway, it’s just about the best, most moving ending to a video game ever. Absolutely nails it, in a way that stuck with me for a long time.
Now I know they killed Joel in the first few hours of the game, I’ve seen how they did it. Screw them. I have read through all the text and all the comments and just don’t understand why. It seems like they destroyed a great story to serve a lesser one. I will have to play it one day, but unless I’m missing something, I just don’t see the purpose of it.
@AdamNovice it was interesting reading your perspective on it and it seems to me that Joel is often the key as to what people take from this story. For me I didn't have that attachment to him as in the first I saw him as using Ellie to replace what he had lost with his own daughter, whilst his actions at the end were understandable but questionable. As for Abby from her perspective Joel killed her father and effectively destroyed the fireflies who she's grown up with who were trying to find a cure to potentially save humanity, so I was on board with Abby straight away.
I do wonder if it could have helped by starting the game as Abby at the time of the end of the previous game, to get to know her and Owen a little and their motivations. Rather than have you swap to her halfway through after she's killed Joel and Jessie and then trying to get people back on board
@Wesker I initially felt the same about them killing Joel and wasn't going to play it but overall I loved the game and its story. To me this makes more sense than Ellie and Joel going off on more adventures together as their relationship at the end to me seemed irreparably damaged.
One thing that is seemingly lost in the discussion is that the gameplay is a big stepup from he original, with much better stealth and combat mechanics and on gameplay alone is one of the best games I've played. As I say above it seems Joel is often the key but I will say there is a lot which happens throughout on both sides and I feel this story is better than the original.
@carlos82 at the end of TLOU Joel made a decision. He followed his heart and put his own self-interest above the greater good. Then he lied to Ellie, the person he was meant to care for the most. He chose for them to live a lie instead of facing the brutal truth. How they told this story was wonderful, revealing basic human instincts and the fragility of the relationship between self and society. How without hope, there is no reason to care for others...
Now all I’m getting from Part 2 is violence begets violence, gotta break the cycle. That’s something I learned in primary school. Also respect the feelings and rights of 🏳️🌈 people. Again, pretty basic stuff. I really get the feeling they had no inspiration for Part 2, so they just decided to make a shocking plot twist then map onto it some virtue signalling.
@Wesker thats the overriding theme but there is a lot more to the story and the relationships between the characters, its not always as bleak as it seems either with some lighter moments. Joel is in it quite a bit more than it seems and I feel it deals with the ending of the first rather well. If you don't want to play it then fair enough, I'm just saying there is a lot more happening then first appears
@funkerdoodle agree about the upping of difficulty. The modern Naughty Dog games have always struggled with this a bit. The supernatural elements at the back end of the first few Uncharted games really let them down a bit for me
With enemies just feeling like overpowered bullet spunges, I never found it that enjoyable.
@carlos82 yeah sounds like it’s worth playing for those reasons, the gameplay improvements like you mentioned, production quality and attention to detail. Just a pity this isn’t a landmark in video game history like the first one. Neither was Uncharted 4 to be honest. Naughty Dog’s PS4 output hasn’t been as important as it’s PS3 efforts like TLOU and Uncharted 2.
@carlos82 You make some very good points (thanks for reading mine since it was long post) yeah if you didn't have a strong attachment to Joel then it's likely that Part 2 would feel different to you as it does to me.
For me I saw Joel as a man who lost his humanity after losing Sarah who then gradually gets it back through his time with with Ellie.
It was why it resonants with me so much.
Abby had strong motivations but unlike Joel her actions were malicious and cruel and I felt the writers went for the nuclear option before telling a more interesting story while also failing to give what many fans wanted which was a follow up Joel & Ellie story.
@carlos82 nora, mel and owen got themselves killed, ellie offered all three of them to live if they told her where abby was but they all decided instead to attack her what do you expect ellie to do in that situation lie down and die? as for all the other people she kills they all were trying to kill her the wolves had a kill on sight command from isaac and the scars shot her before she had even seen any of them. As for the she put herself in that position, abby and co put all of them in that position by killing joel, if they had the brainpower to not wear any identifying cloths ie the wlf insignia they would have got away scot free. you can argue that every death is a result of abby not being able to let go of her hate
@Sondheimist i presume the doctor your talking about is abbys father, who picks up a scalpel and threatens joel with it "dont come any closer i mean it" while pointing the scalpel at him. The other two doctors you can leave without killing so the whole killing a unarmed doctor is false unless thats what u chose to do, the first game really presents you with the notion of if the world is actually worth saving as other than jackson everyone is just trying to kill each other and if your willing to murder a 14 year girl on just the possibility of developing a cure (it takes year to develope vaccines, and do the firefliys actually have the infrastructure to make and distribute it) then maybe you dont deserve it.
@sindrics Ellie created the situation in her quest for revenge, Nora just run away for a start and why would the others tell Ellie where Abby was? Abby managed to kill just the one person she was looking for in Joel, even sparing Ellie and Tommy and you can argue that all the killings can be traced to Joel's actions
@AdamNovice what I love about both games is that their stories aren't black and white and what we take from the first potentially leads us down a different path in the second. I can see why many would have wanted a continuation of those characters, even I still liked him and so wasn't initially sure I was going to play this as I'd seen some of the leaks.
I'm going to go back and play the original again this week and then maybe a hard playthrogh of part 2 before Ghost of Tsushima comes out.
@carlos82 you can argue its traced back further as the whole reason any of it happens is abby killing joel which happens because joel killed abbys father, who was about to kill ellie and pulled a scalpel on joel and threatend him with it so u can argue that the killings were traced back to abbys father. You could trace it back to marlene for hiring joel and tess in the first place, nora provokes ellie and then attacks her with a tray before running off which leads to the chase and then ellie dragging her down into the spores so its noras own fault. Both manny and jordan were going to kill ellie back at jackson and it was owen that literally put himself between them and stopped them before abby says their done. of course there not going to give up their friend but the facts are that ellie gave them that option. Do you think if they ended it after the theatre it would have been a better ending or do you prefer the ending at the beach?
@sindrics I've gone back and fourth on the ending, I don't mind how it ended on the beach but how they got from the theatre scene to the beach felt forced and by that point the game was already a little long. I'd have probably ended it after the theatre, still have the farm and the flashbacks to Joel and the party but have her turn Tommy away and let go of her anger
5.5 rounded up to 6, environment design level design and graphics etc 8, sound design music voice acting 7, gameplay and gameplay systems 5, characters and story 2. 22/4 = 5.5.
@carlos82 I can absolutely respect. I hope GoT turns out great.
10/10 loved everything
I went into the game completely fresh (finished TLOU1 back when it came out but played it again a couple of months ago to remember the story). I didn't watch any trailers, read any reviews or any news about the game until I finished it. I gave it a solid 10/10. One of my friends just finished it today as well and gave it a 10/10. I was well shocked when I went online and started reading TLOU2 news to see all the hate it got...I just don't understand it at all.
I think its going to go down as my third favorite PS4 game (behind Death Stranding and Sekiro). It's crazy how far video games have come in the past 20 years
To anyone that is hung up on how Joel was treated in this game, try and view the story a different way. What if you hadn't played TLOU? What if you started the game as Abby, in the flashback, running through the hospital to find your dead dad? Play through her story and see how she has devoted her life to finding the man that killed her father. The man that stole the vaccine from the world for selfish reasons.
7 years ago I felt the same way about Joel's choice. The ending of TLOU is what it is, and it is uncomfortable as hell. TLOU2 continues that in a true way, making you uncomfortable as hell.
The thing I felt the most, is that you can read all you want, and form whatever opinions you would like, until you have played it and experienced the story yourself, it is not a very valuable opinion.
Seattle Day 3 I was ready to kill Abby. I was pissed off that we were taking Dina back to Jackson. I hated how they tried to humanize Abby, making jokes with her friends, showing us how they were providing for their community... And then by the time you see the effects of her revenge start to toll on her friends. The people she has hurt and neglected to satisfy her anger... You see the mirrored perspective of her and Ellie. They are both blinded by hatred from actions that were caused by someone else.
By the end, they both had come to terms with their situation. Both Ellie and Abby had lost everyone around them in their pursuit of revenge. Ellie lost just a bit more, by losing Dina and JJ.
Seeing all the hate the game gets most people are wondering how people "who have never played it" can get so spiteful, I just keep wondering how everyone's standards could get so low.
Nasty news about crunch hours and Mr. Druckmans inflated ego, misleading marketing, abusing the copyright system on social media, providing a story with a stupid conclusion (yes I get the message, cycle of violence, only that Abby get's a pass and leaves the scene with Lev and all her fingers, while Ellie loses everything) and calling it a masterpiece.
I see a far deeper concern here, while I can perfectly accept that TLOU II is a gut wrenching, well made (production wise) game that, existing in a vacuum can provide thrilling and even fun gameplay (despite the bleak world) It's worrysome to me, that obviously the finer nuances of storytelling of the first part have not much value in a "loud" world today anymore, where going for pure shock value, sacrificing lovingly and carefully crafted characters in the process to many people is the only thing left to get an emotional response to.
I got enough flak for voicing my opinion, which again is really troublesome. Not realizing what treasure you had with Joel and Ellie, especially as a new IP and then sacrificing them for shock value... no wonder there are no DLC plans and I doubt there's TLOU III on the horizon anytime soon, or ever. This franchise unfortunately is done and most people giving it 10/10 now will play something else in a week's time and never look back.
Do people even read books anymore? I mean... good books, without pictures? Would give some reference to story telling. But if it has to be "moving pictures" I recommend "The Expanse", especially Season 2 and onwards for absolutely awesome character writing and development.
Maybe Neil should watch some of it.
@Old-Red Charlie Brooker is a living legend!
@PorkYoself I don't have a big problem with the way they handled Joel's death, although I can certainly see why some have frustrations with it and as a story it does seem a bit of a stretch.
Abby has supposedly been hunting Joel for 4 years, knows who he and Tommy are immediately and yet doesn't know who Ellie is? Really? Tommy and Joel just giving their names and position up is massively out of character for the world they're in as well, I don't care how they try to explain that it's weak.
And that's just the start of it. The story is full of questionable coincidences, plot holes and conveniences that aren't even attempted to be explained.
Whether that's enough to spoil the game for you is personal preference, but to deny the story's weaknesses is a bit strange imo.
@AFCC Hi there friend and fellow gamers alike. I really liked reading your perspective on this game that as divided so many.
To be completely honest, I think ND were geniuses about that mid game twist. It felt a bit like MGS2 when you start playing as Raiden instead of Snake, but in this case it was so much more impactful since all of a sudden you’re playing as "Joel´s killer" and you are like "wait, what? Oh okay, were going to see why she wanted to kill him".
You know the moment in the game when we have to descent into a building with a rope? I actually fell because I thought that was the right way, only to see Abby fall to her death. And you know what I did next?
I made Abby "fall to her death" again because I was still pissed at her because of what she did, even if it was justified. And then it hit me. "OMG, I just did something that doesn´t make any sense as a player by killing my character off, but I did it anyway out of spite". It was then and there that the game for me became so much more compelling and interesting, because now I was going to see the other side of the same coin.
See Abby´s perspective on things and actually see her character grow and, going against everything, starting to like said character and even starting to root for her wellbeing especially when she says to Lev that he is "her people".
It was brilliant in my opinion. Both Ellie and Abby are two sides of the same coin, two broken characters that clearly and desperately need some sort of redemption in their actions. They, just like Joel, need to know that they are "good people".
They all did terrible things that they thought was justifiable, validated in this mean and horrible world they live in. Such a phenomenal game ND has done and I´m probably going to pay it again before Ghost of Tsushima comes out. This game is something else. The visuals are amazing, the animations and combat are outstanding. That whole part in the hospital with that Boss fight at he end? Absolutely brilliant. Atmosphere done right. And the Abby vs Ellie, Ellie vs Abby Boss fights? I was so torned about the whole thing. I didn´t want to kill Ellie and I didn´t want Abby to die. ND completely played with our emotions with this one , that´s for sure. All and all, it´s a 10/10 for me. Can´t wait to sse what they do next. Cheers and happy gaming to us all
@RaZieLDaNtE I was starting to think I was the only one who didn't want abby to die, I really ended up not knowing how to feel by the end, I didn't want either of them to die.
I wish the ending was less ambiguous though, I would've liked to have actually seen what happened to Ellie, Abby and Lev but it's left very vague and we may never get a sequel, I didn't like the ending very much because of this but I'd still give it a 9/10, very well done ND.
@Scollurio I think the reason why you've gotten hate for your opinion (at least from my point of view) is how you present it, by saying things like "people have low standards" you're presenting your opinion of the story as fact, you're not of higher intellect because you liked the first one more and you don't have better standards. You need to get off your high horse, you can state your opinion without bringing down others.
Quick summary would be that it's a fantastic game that with a bit of editing could have been perfect for me. I think I understand why people are annoyed Joel get's killed so early but I don't agree. Think it worked for the story.
Things I didn't like as much
@Cloud39472 Fair enough - but I didn't do so for my very first comments. I guess I just got bitter. It said "Ellie and Joel" on the can but we got something different, even Druckman publically admitted how they swapped skins and lines for the trailers to bait people. That's why I am bitter I guess.
@Scollurio the misleading in the trailers was a bit weird imo. I totally get that they didn't want to give a lot of the game away, and even hiding Abby completely makes sense, but pretending that Joel was in the game more is a bit disingenuous. I don't think they necessarily did it deliberately to annoy people, but it's still a questionable marketing choice.
Also it led to me feeling really weird when Jesse says the line "you didn't think I'd let you do this on your own, did you?". That line in context of the game felt very disappointing when it should've been an important moment in the story.
@roe I am not sure what the problem is with Abby not knowing Ellie. We see how Abby heard Marlene talk about Joel. We see the Salt Lake crew talk about how they found Tommy. Did you expect something similar for Ellie? As far as I can tell, she knew exactly who Ellie was. Abby wanted revenge for what Joel did, not Ellie (until the end of Seattle).
Joel and Tommy are trying to grow Jackson. They are actively trading with people passing through town, living a relatively safe life for the past 4 years. Yeah, they would've handled the situation differently in the past, but people change. People become complacent when comfortable.
There are certain elements that will away either way, depending on how you view the game, you love it or you hate it. If you are looking for things to complain about, you will find them. But of all the things to complain about, your issues seem like small potatoes.
I wanted Abby and Ellie to walk away from the last fight. I wanted them both to survive. That accomplishment far outweighs the fact the PSVita has an internal battery and likely needs to replaced long before 2039.
@mrobinson91 the Santa Barbara sections was definitely a little long in the tooth. My wife and I had been playing all day when we finally got the the farm. I was like "sweet, I am gonna roll credits on this tonight". Yeah...
I am glad they didn't try and make Santa Barbara DLC or some hook into a third game. If it was, people would've just complained that it was a retcon to make the ending more meaningful or something. But I blew through the combat, trying to finish the game. Knowing I was right there... I could care less for the Rattlers and whatever BS story they had.
One thing I wish was more clear, was the response from the "Catalina Island Fireflies" real? Or was it just a trap set by the Rattlers? Seemed kinda like a setup to me, the way he ended with "see you soon Abby from Salt Lake" or whatever, sounded kinda sarcastic and smarmy.
How did you people stomach that "mandatory dog scene"? :/
@Scollurio I'm not meaning this in aggressive way, but I feel like you're time would better be spent on another thread. Doesn't feel like you're hear for a discussion. In answer to your question though...what dog scene?! Not only did I "stomach" it, it wasn't enough of a big deal to register it.
I'd be interested to know the ratings of the game based on people who did and didn't see the spoilers. It's very anecdotal but it seems that people who didn't see the spoilers are more likely to have enjoyed the game. I feel lucky to have missed all the spoilers and ignored almost all marketing. I think this leads to a better player experience.
I loved it but that 3rd act when you're back controlling Ellie and after Abby again stopped this from being a 10/10 for me. I loved the ending and i'm glad both Ellie and Abby survived and it feels right that Ellie is left with nothing, she may have let Abby live but she was willing to chuck away Dina and the life she had for revenge and for that she doesn't deserve a happy ending and it was bad of her to expect Dina to sit and wait and hope she comes back. Everything leading up to that that with Abby from the Farmhouse for me was over long and a slog though, it didn't feel like TLoU and felt more like an action game inserted into it, the new faction i really didn't like and they had no place in the game, they could have had the Scars or Wolfs catch Abby, cut the 3rd act in half and still keep the ending they wanted. I'm also not thrilled with Abby and Lev being captured and tortured and turned into slaves, going by how broken Abby seems at the end its pretty clear what ever they done to her was horrible and nasty as she was a pretty strong person before that, i feel doing that doing that to her just sh*ts on her character and was only done so Ellie could actually stand a chance against her. As for Joel's death well i'm ok with it, i've seen comments say Joel never would have saved Abby or trusted her and a group of strangers but i feel you got to remember he's mellowed out more and since Ellie came around he let his guard down more, the Joel at the end of the first game isn't the same Joel at the start of his trip with Ellie, he regained his humanity somewhat and learned to be a father again so yeah saving a young girl from being torn to shreds feels in character. Its a 9/10 for me and would be 10/10 if not for that 3rd act.
@mrobinson91 I’m asking a question out of genuine interest how players took it (Ellie killing abbys dog in a qte) and you think I’m not here for a discussion? You didn’t even notice the scene - it’s really hard to miss. Strange.
I read a lot that "Joel got what he deserved". Here's another take: Joel already got f-ed over when he lost his daughter, he already was "lost" and did despicable things but redeemed himself by taking care of Ellie. By the point he should sacrifice her to a possible cure for society (yet no one knows how the Fireflies would have handled distribution) Ellie was his daughter. His child. In my opinion, he did what every sane father would have done: rescued his daughter. By doing so, Abby's father "got in the way". I see Joel's motives as much more noble and humane than Abbys simple revenge plot. Holding a grudge that bad for years, I can only figure how deranged she must be. That said, I felt the end of Joel felt unearned as I thought he already "undid" the shady stuff he had to do to survive by taking care of Ellie. I'm pretty sure Abby's group has lost loved members throughout the years (between the end of TLOU and current events) to other parties as well - did they go on a revenge plot for each one of them too? Thoughts?
@Scollurio I just don't relate that scene to a ""mandatory dog scene" that would be hard to stomach.
With regards your point on Joel's death being unearned...it feels more than believable that Abby and a group of old fireflys would want Joel dead. Not only did he kill her Dad, in their eyes he is the reason the world doesn't have a vaccine. I don't understand why Joel already having been through bad things means he can't be killed.
Joel is not the hero. Ellie is not the hero. Abby is not a hero. These are complex characters in a complex world and things are not black and white. People seem to think Joel's death says something about the morality of his choice. For me TLOU2 hammers home more than ever how morally grey their decisions are. All you have to do is see something from different perspectives and something can seem right or wrong. Joel's choice to save Ellie is essentially the "trolley problem", it's not something that has an answer about right or wrong.
@mrobinson91 Thank you for this indepth-answer. I see your point and from a perspective that TLOU II universe would be real life, I agree. Good deeds or "seemingly" good deeds (or good intentions) don't put you out of harms way later on. That's not how life works. But this is a game, a construct, with a story and a narrative and ND tried to convey a message and in this context, I feel his death was unearned, because if no one is a hero and revenge "out of the gut" is the modus operandi for everyone in this fictional universe you could as well just have a a random different gang parade in and kill everyone "for reasons", regardless of their actions. In a real life setting, sure this could happen, but in a carefully crafted piece like a videogame I find this kind of storytelling "sloppy". But that's just a personal preference.
Joel was a carefully crafted character and killing him for shock value, without someone "taking his place" narratively I think was a mistake. A waste. Again, personal opinion, I don't see Abby or anyone from the new cast coming close to be able to leave a legacy of Joel and Ellie of the first game.
The story that was told, may not be bad per se, but telling it on the cost of the Joel & Ellie dynamic... I don't know. I guess I'd have preferred just more stories with different people in the same TLOU universe and have Ellie and Joel as cameos.
But yeah, wishful thinking.
For Shimmer
For Alice
RIP
@Cloud39472 Hi there friend. That´s exactly why I think this game story is brilliant. Sure, not everyone will like it or even enjoy it. But I genuinely care about all the these characters. I believe ND can make another one if they want, since the ending made sure we can have multiple story treads that we can follow.
Heck, we might eventualy control Lev as the main character or even JJ as he gets older. And we will either see Abby and Ellie as secondary characters or even playble ones.
Or maybe we´ll have completely new characters to root, love, hate and care for all over again. Who knows what ND will decide to do with their franchise and wich direction they will take it next. Before that though, they will probably make something brand new. Cheers, all the best and happy gaming to us all
@WallyWest I agree with Abbys enslavement, it felt like they really wanted to bring her down to a point where Ellie could take her because let's be honest, Abby would have destroyed Ellie when she was in her prime, hell the only reason Ellie is alive is because of Lev.
I hope Abby and Lev end up building themselves back to what they were, I hate the fact that my last image of Abby is just this shell of a person, she had dealt with enough IMO.
@Nepp67 I agree they didn't add much, but you gotta admit they did so much in animations, visuals, body destruction etc etc, the gameplay in the second one is MILES better than the first one imo
Again sorry for double posting!
@RaZieLDaNtE I think people that like the game all had their moment of 'ok maybe I am on Abby's side'! I genuinely think that if you played with Abby all the second half and THEN have a flashback where she kills Joel you would be so confused, so torn apart! The only thing that players hate about Abby seems to be the fact she killed Joel!
@AFCC Yeah I will admit that they did a phenomenal job there
A little late to the party here, but oh well, here we go...
I personally also loved that ND had the nerve to kill Joel off early. I was kind of indifferent to his murder--he was a killer himself--and didn't miss him at first, but they did a great job drip feeding amazing Joel moments throughout the story (e.g., the natural history museum!), so that by the end of Ellie's Day 3 I really did miss Joel and felt that emotional attachment (and loss) again. Playing as Abby was the biggest shock of the game to me. Of course in the beginning, but also after the 'switch'. I was kind of guessing we'd play as her again, but I was NOT expecting a whole other campaign, with new characters and expanded story. Lev was definitely my favorite character in the game; just absolutely loved that story arc. They could make a whole other game starring Lev, and I'd be in 100%. The ending was... something! The beach scene was by far the most emotional scene in the game for me. Seeing Abby malnourished and weak like that, just a shell of her former buff soldier self, and left for dead on the post was just... wow. And that moment where Ellie is about to get on the boat and leave, but then has the flash of Joel's (dead) face, and then DOES decide to go after Abby to exact her revenge... absolutely brutal. Just amazing storytelling all around. So good I feel like I need to take a break from gaming for a while!
(at least until Ghost of Tsushima comes out)
Finished it today. Brilliant game. I'll let it sink in for a while.
@RedShirtRod Your case in question is absolutely necessary, given that none of these "gamers" will have experienced the scale of real horror which this game depicts in real life.
Therefore, I don't understand how anyone should really be getting heated over the 'fictional' controversy's within this piece of entertainment.
I would challenge anyone of them, to do some real research into the real attrocities which happen everyday in certain parts of the world.
@AFCC Hey thanks for the reply. Yeah, I have to agree. The thing is, so many of us become so attached to a character, it becomes difficult to watch said character to die, horrible death or not. I tottaly get it.
I mean, I litteraly cryied like a baby when(SPOILERS for MGS4) I thought Snake had taken his own life. Only to realize, after the "fake" credits, that he was in fact alive.(END Of SPOILERS)
These game directors really like to toy with the players emotions and attachment to certain characters.
But that´s it, you know. That´s how you know how great these games and stories these developers can make. Another reason why I love videogames so much. Cheers and have a good one 👍
@Ear_wiG Hi there friend. Man, that scene on the beach..... That was BRUTAL on so many levels. And just like the scene at the theatre when I didn´t want Ellie to die, I also did not want Abby to die on the beach. Both of these characters were so obsessed with their personal vendetta, that they ended up losing themselves in the process.
Abby lost a chance at love and having a family with Owen and Ellie lost(maybe not, hopefully) a chance of having a peaceful life full of love with Dina and JJ.
Abby at least got Lev to bring her to the light and fill the emptiness that she had. Ellie is probably still trying to fill that void.
But at the very least, in the end, Ellie was able to break the cycle of violence, vengeance and death and hopefully, she will get that redemption story that she needs. Overall, amazing storytelling in my oppinion. Cheers and have a good one
@Medic_Alert Lev is trans? I totally missed that! 😂 I wish I didn't miss the name drop.
That's pretty interesting as well, doesn't sound like it was done in a agenda pushy way at all, but in a pretty nuanced way. He was a good character, I loved the game. Not sure if I prefer it to the first, I completed it last night, I need to think on it a little.
@RaZieLDaNtE Yeah they did an amazing job of making us care about two characters who are at violent odds with each other. I've never experienced that in a game before. It's quite something!
@thefirst - Pretty much all of this.
But to expand a little... I'm solidly team Joel if only because, number one, he looks uncannily like my father but number two, he made an extremely human decision to save Ellie. It may not have been the "right" thing to do but it was an understandable reaction given his past and the connection the two had forged.
Also having played the first game like 5 different times, I very much remember how much of a collective ***** all the fireflies were. Mowing them all down was one of the most satisfying parts of the first game.
Overall, even though there were many narrative decisions that upset me, I didn't go into this for the warm fuzzies. The story is what it is and I'm far more likely to defend it than critique it. I prefer bleak stories anyway.
That's all to say nothing of the phenomenal game play.
First of all, I’m glad I stayed away from anything TLOU2 related when info regarding the game weak a couple of months ago. I actually like the game though not as much as the first one.
I thought it was unique that the game let’s you play as the antagonist. Though you could argue that Ellie was kinda turning into a villain as well when she forced Abby to fight her by holding a knife to Lev’s neck during the last chapter. My main issue was that Abby’s gameplay portion was way too long which lead to some pacing issues. Her story almost fills like filler at times and probably would’ve been better if it was 5 instead of 10 hours of gameplay. To be honest, I would’ve been happy if the story ended during the farm chapter.
Joel’s death didn’t bother me at all, but it did shocked me when it happened.
There were a few uncomfortable moments though like the fight scene during the last chapter and also the full frontal nudity sex scene. Don’t think the latter needs to be in games. We already have a lot of that in movies and especially tv shows.
There were also too many occasions where surprised attacks happened just as characters were either entering or exiting an area.
My favourite chapter was the Birthday Gift one and I love some of the new characters like Dina, Jesse and Lev. Oh yeah, the visuals were jaw dropping too.
The game's biggest problem is that they approved Abby, the most grotesque version of her they could create, and they expect us to empathize with her, its a joke.
@OmegaStriver
"They set it up to look like Ellie hates dogs, Abby loves dogs."
See this is the stuff I can't stand. You make out everything is an agenda. This thinking is pathetic and noone who played the game without being pre-triggered would come to this conclusion.
It's ridiculous.
@nirkon there is nothing grotesque about Abby. She wanted revenge just like Ellie did.
Throughout, the torture of Joel was condemned by Mel and showed Abby grew as a person by letting Ellie live.
@Spinachie Well guess what? I still don’t like it. They wrote Joel and Tommy stupid in the beginning by Going into a room full of people they don’t know with no weapons. Totally against their established traits. Abby says in the beginning that everyone will want to turn back once they see Jackson, how would they not know it’s a big place considering someone had to inform them of where Tommy is known to be. Ellie PURPOSELY kills Mel knowing she has information she needs. It wasn’t an accident, she reaches, and then grabs the knife, and then stabs her. Abby is a POS in general, even screws over Mel by cheating with Owen. She even admits why is she helping Lev, because it’s what I need to do. She only did it to tell herself that she isn’t all bad. She then, HAPPILY, is going to kill Dena but ONLY stops because of Lev. I could keep going but I’m done. It was a good game, they tried to write a story on the level of Spec Ops The Line, they failed.
Saddest part of the game was the loss of....
... Abby's gains RIP that's 4 years of training down the drain. And her braid just to add insult to injury.
Finished the game today, really enjoyed it, is enjoyed the right word? It was pretty horrific in places but it made me feel more than most media has of late.
Poor Shimmer, I expected her to die but still. When Dina started her dad joke with a line about Shimmer seeming ill I was so worried she was actually sick, laughed so hard when I realised it was just a bad joke.
I thought going from Ellie to Abby was a really good idea. You go from happily murdering everyone to feeling really ***** about it. I didn't expect to change my mind about Abby. At first I thought it was funny seeing things from Abby's side, I'd be like "tee hee, there's your friend Nora, Ellie's going to murder her later". But I came around to her. I was gutted that Ellie couldn't give up on revenge even when Dina was begging her to stay. Fighting Abby at the end just felt awful, I was glad she couldn't go through with killing her even if she realised too late. (As for her killing hundreds of other people that's just video game rules, we need something to do.)
The game somehow took me a full 360 about the dogs. I started off not wanting to kill them because "aw poor dogs". Then after getting Ellie's face ate so many times I was like "okay f you dogs!" Right back to "oh no not Alice!" I was genuinely more sad that I'd killed Alice than the pregnant lady (Mel was mean to Abby, understandable but still).
Has nobody else done the math of how far it is from Jackson, Wyoming to Seattle? Let me tell you, it is over 800 miles in one direction. You're telling me that these people traveled all that way to kill one man?
@USNveteranAZ
This one man single-handedly killed their mentor, their leader, a good deal of the rest of the group, leading to their disbanding and eliminated their one hope for permanently ending the pandemic. That's plenty of incentive even when you don't take into account that Abby has a very personal connection with the head surgeon.
Finished it last night. Wow, what an amazing and epic piece of drama. Also, what a very good game it is.
So many highlights (and lowlights) to go through so these are the scenes that affected me most.
*Joel's murder - not just the act itself but the events leading up to it, the chase through the snow, being saved by Joel and Tommy, the sense of dread building as you get to the chalet, the sudden awful violence, Ellie's tears and rage and Joel's bashed-in face. Powerful stuff.
*Seattle - seeing downtown before you and being almost free to explore every inch of that wide expanse. Beautiful and silent and full of hidden danger. It's actually the most relaxed you'll feel during the whole game so you better enjoy it!
*The Tunnels - the action beforehand is thrilling but this is the first time you can use the infected to fight human enemies and it's immensely satisfying. The whole sequence is brilliant and by the time you reach the Theatre and lock the door behind you the relief is palpable.
*Seraphites - your first encounter with them and it's wonderfully staged and atmospheric. They're a formidable for, arrows coming out of nowhere with pinpoint accuracy, the creepy whistling, the feeling that you're never quite safe. It's the best section in the game when you're fighting solely human enemies.
*Stalkers - Ha, I was waiting for something and then these creepy and sneakily blighters came along. Reminded me of Gollum in some way, sneaking around, hiding from view then deciding to attack.
*Nora - I thought she was going to be okay but she had to get in that line about Joel so definitely deserves to die. Still, I did hesitate before swinging and a part of Ellie broke.
*End of the first half - Ellie did some terrible things and the cost was dear. Then Abby shows up...
Part II...
*Seraphites - the ambush in the truck is pure ND and very Uncharted-esque. It's a thrilling sequence. Then there is the hanging, the escape, that awful fight in the building where almost every type of infected is thrown against you.
*The climb leading to The Descent - probably the most thrilling segment of the entire game. You get to know Lev but spend most of your time.fighting for your life. The flamethrower is very satisfying to use in combat and a real chance to channel your inner Ripley. Very Aliens!
*The Fight with Tommy - what a formidable foe is our Tommy. Running, hiding, dispatching infected then more running and hiding. Poor Manny though.
*The Island - humans vs humans and it's awful to see. It reminded me strongly of a scene from The Thin Red Line when the Americans storm a Japanese camp all set to the wonderful Hans Zimmer piece 'Journey to the Line'. You see and hear all this combat and carnage and the inhumanity and can't help but think what a waste of life. Also, you can't help but ask if the enemies ever run out of ammo!
*Abby v Ellie - Round One. She's a slippery little thing is our Ellie but can't help but admit that a few times I purposefully let Abby die just so Ellie could get her revenge. The game though wants a different outcome and it's hard controlling a character that is beating up our hero. Very hard. Just pleased Dina made it, thanks Lev!
The Farm is nice and welcome respite but Tommy calling Ellie a coward felt really wrong to me. I'm not sure I agreed with that.
*Santa Barbara - hmm, unnecessary? Maybe but I was able to avoid killing most Rattlers until I eventually infiltrated the resort. Then it becomes pure Uncharted.
*Ellie v Abby - Round Two. At this stage Ellie is battered and bruised and you just want them to go their separate ways. Again though the game won't allow you to so you have to fight. I did so but reluctantly. Do this though and Abby will kill you so you have to mean it. I thought it was awful but very powerful and in the end I agreed with Ellie's choice. It was sad that she ended up like Frodo but maybe like had to discard the ring before he could be whole again, Ellie had to let go of her hate and reject violence.
*The End - some tears were shed. A chance to say goodbye to an old friend and a sense that Ellie may yet be alright.
I thought it was an absolutely brilliant game, nothing I've played has stayed in my head like this since I played RDR2. One day I will definitely play it again, maybe it will become an annual thing, but not yet...not yet.
10/10
@thefirst I agree, the Fireflies are the true villains. I guess they just didn't think Joel would come to care about Ellie but surely they knew his past and how Sarah died? Did they think too much time had passed or was he really the only man for the job?
This isn't really touched upon but then there's a lot that isn't. I kind of like that. I mean we never see a scene where Abby explains why she killed Joel nor where Ellie gets a chance to tell her side. Maybe we were hoping for a cliche scene where our two girls has their heart-to-heart and collapsed into each others arms, crying uncontrollably, BFF!
This isn't how things played out though and in the end an awful lot was left unsaid. I can respect that.
@Clytorial_Impact Hopefully you get to play as Lev, that boy has the potential to be the most deadly character in that world.
Overall I thought it was really good, the only negatives I thought were the pacing and structure towards the end, but nothing to lessen my overall enjoyment of the game. But I struggle to think what could be cut apart from a couple of encounters, which would not have reduced the overall time by that much, and some of my favourite moments in the game were from Abby's sections. The story was bold and risky, I really like it when writers and directors do that kind of shiz instead of just the same old safe **** again and again.
@Col_McCafferty Glad you enjoyed the game too, great summary of some the highlights from the game!
@JohnnyShoulder Cheers mate, I've been thinking about the game for most of the day and tried to put some of my feelings about it into words.
I even forgot some other great moments such as the zebra caught on the barbed wire, seeing the Pearl Jam poster on the wall, Ellie's staggering cover of 'Take On Me', the visit it to the museum in its entirety but especially when Ellie blasts off into 'space' (if that was in a film then THAT would be the clip they would show at the Oscars), playing with the dogs (cute when they're not trying to bite your face off!) and much much more.
I'm sad that it has caused so much division but it is what it is.
I can see how a third game might be possible. Like what happened to Abby and Lev after they left in the boat and the fireflies. Also a continuation of Ellies story could happen after she is walking through the field, what happens next? The wolves, would they want revenge, what about the scars or settlers?
One of the things that made the TLOU so special-aside from the wonderful relationship the story built between Joel and Ellie-was how perfectly it was paced. I replayed the game in February to get ready for this, and was struck again by how no moment in that game felt wasted, and the whole thing moved forward with a propulsive energy.
TLOU2 has a lot going for it. The moments between characters are all great-Ellie and Dina, Abby and Lev, Joel and Ellie all have moments and dialogue together that really shine. The graphics are great, the combat feels better than the first game, and the story (while often tragic) feels like a natural outgrowth of the events of the first game. The ending is powerful. It is a very good game.
The thing that keeps it from being a great game is the pacing-in my view, the game is way too long. Playing as Abby for some scenes to show perspective is interesting. Half a game as Abby seems excessive-getting to the hospital went on and on. And the whole Santa Barbara thing with a whole new gang thrown in was pure padding for little reason.
The sad thing is, I don’t think ND needed to bloat the game this way to drive home their point about how destructive the cycle of violence is. I didn’t need 12 hours as Abby to grasp that she and her friends have rich inner lives that make the cycle of revenge tragic. Nor did I need to play fetch with every dog Ellie killed, or take the other detours to let me know violence is destructive. I wish ND had trusted us to grasp the point without hammering it over and over and losing the pace of the game.
7/10 for me. Very good game and I am very glad it exists and that I played it. But it is not a masterpiece like TLOU, and one of the reasons I know that is because around the halfway point, kept wondering when this game would end already. There are lots of great moments, even in the second half, but this story needed some editing.
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L Undeniably, yes.
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L I have to admit, everything that's going for the emotional route will resonate with me for better or worse. While I agree on your sentiment and can see how you can disassociate, I mostly can not.
Even something "pixelated" like "Chrono Trigger" got me on the heart-strings, lol. I even try to not kill animals in any game. I like to "pretend" things have real impact in the game's/movie's own universe so I can experience it fully, immerse myself in it, so to speak.
That also might be the reason why I am generally very critical of sloppy writing or out-of-character moments and deus ex machina situations. If I wouldn't take it seriously, there wouldn't be any point in enjoing entertainment media in the first place for me.
Late finishing this so can't add much to the discussion that hasnt already been said, but wow.
I finished this evening. It is a masterpiece. Nothing in gaming has challenged me on so many levels before. Like there were scenes where my heart rate was genuinely racing. Like in the theatre where ellie is stalking abby.
This game was something special. Words cannot do it enough justice.
If i have any complaints it would be that perhaps the game was a litttttle bit too long. But the time ND spent developing Abby's character was critical for feeling sympathy towards her by the end of the game - and they succeeded in making me warm to her big time.
I also felt that more time could have been devoted to fighting infected rather than the factions. Clearly the multiplayer arm of the game still to be come is now well stocked with different factions to play as.
But any complaints are churlish against what this game delivers and achieves. This is the bar for games to aspire to an a technological front. I don't know who will be able to top it. I cannot wait to see whay Naughty Dog do next. I just hope that the criticism they have recieved this time around doesnt blunt their ambition (or knock Sony's confidence in giving them free reign)
@thefirst Zealous
The TLOU created a fan base that had been built on the growing emotional relationship between Joel and Ellie. Many players empathised with the characters, particularly Joel from the start when he loses his daughter. I can’t think of many more games that have that emotional impact on players. A land mark in gaming that was justifiably lauded.
To then destroy what many fans loved about the game in the first few hours of the sequel was always going to be a big call and it definitely split fans down the middle.
It wasn’t so much Joel’s death, it was what died along with Joel and that was that precious relationship fans loved so much. I have to admit I was really tied into that relationship myself and the shadow of Joel’s death was always ever present as I played the game.
Moving on to the game itself, the graphics and look of the game blew me away. The realism of both the landscape and the emotional expressions on the faces of the characters throughout the game were amazing. The facial expressions in particular have, I’m sure, helped to trigger deeper emotions in many players, it certainly did in my case. Discovering the vistas and urban landscapes on horseback was a pure joy and I wish there had been more of that.
The combat actions are smooth and natural, the encounters made more real by the conversations between your assailants, that heighten the tension. The violence in the game is more extreme, again heightened by the quality of the graphics and the simple number of encounters there are. It made me wince at times.
As far as the story is concerned I thought it suffered terribly from bad pacing, it jumped all over the place and in the end it seemed to stutter to its final scene ,rather than have a smooth transition in order to reach it.
A good example of the poor pacing was the build up to the tense theatre confrontation, only to cut to Abby as a young girl wandering through the woods with her Dad, so returning to that scene 12 hours on didn't have the same impact.
Another was the cut to Ellie and Dina living in a secured farmstead some considerable months down the line, with all appearing happy in their world. Then Tommy turns up and Naughty Dog fire a starting gun again. All a bit clumsy and not really thought through for me. Tommy getting angry over Ellie's reluctance to renew the pursuit of Abby didn't feel right for that character. He had already twice tried to protect her from that confrontation. It felt forced in order to drive the narrative. Reminiscing about Joel and pulling on her heart strings would have felt more convincing as a trigger for Ellie to return to the pursuit.
I think I’d have empathised more with Abby if we’d been told her story leading up to the confrontation with Joel and Tommy. But because Naughty Dog were so hell bent on getting a shock reaction, even going to the point of spitting on Joel’s dead body, I never empathised with that group or Abby.
Naughty Dog trying to put over that there are good and bad people on both sides was done very clumsily and at times I felt myself saying “Alright, alright enough already, I get it”. It felt very patronising and preachy at times.
The first game certainly had bleak moments but it was constantly punctuated with the interactions between Ellie and Joel which were the main narrative of the story and that gave the game story warmth and hope at times.
The TLOU2 has non of that, except in the flash backs of Ellie and Joel, although a joy to experience, still illicit a sadness in the player, now knowing what’s ahead for them.
It’s a cold story with a bleak landscape and a bleak message, I felt drained and more than a little sad when the credits rolled.
All in all though there are many things to admire with this game and it has certainly given game designers and players alike food for thought. There is a heavy price to pay for that though and that’s the death of the legacy of the first game, which many who play through it again after experiencing TLOU2, will never quite feel the same about.
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L ......I get what Scollurio is saying. I've always been a bit of a day dreamer and as such find it easy to get wrapped up in books, films and in particular games where you're involved making decisions.
This in turn means I get emotionally involved in games even though they're just fiction (pixels as you put it). The plus side is I think you get more out of games because you more immersed in them but the downside is when something harsh happens like Joel's death it affects you more.
I think a lot of people who experience games like me bought into the original game simply because of the way it was structured around the narrative and empathy for the two main characters and why many where so affected by the decision Naughty Dog took to take the story where they took it.
Still in many ways though a landmark game.
I really loved the game and its structure, very glad I had stayed away from any spoilers prior to this. I have to say that I think the story of the first one, even if its rote slightly edges the two for me but I think that's because the first one leaves more scope for hope and I have a personal preference for a happier ending. This doesn't take away from this as a gripping tale of destructive revenge, cyclical nature of violence and the power of empathy (or what comes in its absence). Its just that bleakness and self destructions only fig leaf is levs survival and i didn't bond with him in the way i did with ellie in the first game. I thought Joel was a fantastic character but I never confused that with him being a hero. He did a lot of ***** things and what goes around, comes around. However you feel about the story of 2, its a clear theme that permeates the whole experience.
Playing both sides of the story was enjoyable and when you fight Ellie as Abby, you get a handle of how terryfing it must have been for all the people that had faced off against Ellie on her journey to revenge. It was a complete subversion of the David boss fight from the first game, where you are terrified of your opponent but desperate to kill them. I vividly remember bashing square to kill him!! I've played one twice and I'm still not sure if its even a qte because I was so desperate to kill him I couldn't stop myself spamming melee! In 2 when you creep up on Ellie, I know how she has destroyed Abbys world, killed her dad and love, yet I don't want to kill her, I'm hesitating when the chance comes to attack, I'm gingerly pressing square when prompted. I want Abby to survive but I don't want to kill Ellie. Naughty dog did amazing work to elicit that feeling from me. The same when a wounded ellie fights an emaciated abby at the end of the game. If you don't feel it, I can get why your not that hyped by the whole experience but it hooked me in. Its interesting for me that last encounter between those two protagonists was very similar to a boss fight in death stranding that did absolutely nothing for me, coming at the end of some contrived hot mess. The way that naughty dog provide lore with artefacts in the world along with dialogue with companions alongside cut scenes means their world and character building are streets ahead of most other games. The gameplay is fantastic, brutal but enjoyable. Naughty dog have done something special with the concept of wide linear and other developers should take notice. Even in uncharted 4 I often found myself unable to climb a wall I should be able to because its not what the game wanted. I only found two occasions on my 36 hr playthrough of tlou2 where this occurred. Its absolutely one of the games of this generation. As for a sequel, I would be fine without one. One of the biggest issues I have with modern day huge Internet fantom is that everything has to keep going! Some amazing TV shows had limited 2-3 series runs. Films that don't need a bloody established universe behind them. I'm fine with this being what it is, two of the greatest games ever made.
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