Ariana Grande Will Headline Huge Fortnite Concert This Weekend

Little children rejoice!!!

Nope nope nope

@Just_2_milky You may not like this, but I guarantee you that there are many people out there that are thrilled by this. I don't listen to her music, but this is a really cool!

Is this like the rapper concert that they had a couple years ago?
I really dislike Fortnite, the game just isn't for me, but kudos for the kinda stuff they pull, I bet this makes the playerbase really happy.

Love Ariana but would have preferred Britney tbh 😁

Ariana Grande seems to have passed me by. It really wasn’t that long ago she was still in the iCarly/Victorious Extended Cinematic Universe.

The skin looks very cool 😄

Uh oh, Epic called Fortnite a game instead of a multiverse or whatever buzzword they're trying to rebrand as for the Apple trial. Is that trial still going?

How strange. A concert in Fortnite?

Crossing my fingers that ZZ Top makes an appearance in Factions 2.

now if it was led zepplin...........or acdc...or pink floyd...

And this is what the new metaverse age we are living in looks like and what every entertainment company is striving for. Epic Games have struck gold, no wonder Sony continues to invest in them. Truly the start of a new digital age.

Grande is problematic yet no one ever mentions it. She is a white women who routinely ‘blacks’ her face to look Hispanic or African American.

Iggy Azalea recently copped a huge amount of hate and backlash for doing a similar thing.

Don’t get me wrong I like this kind of cross promotion it’s fun for the fans and perfect for pandemic times.
Much like Porter Robinson’s virtual festivals which are a blast!!

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi

“It’s not aimed at me so it’s stupid”

@fR_eeBritney FREE BRITNEY

Sometimes I think I don’t understand the world anymore, and then sometimes I think that this is just the same commercial BS that’s been around for decades — Michael Jackson drinking Pepsi — and we just don’t have real subculture anymore to juxtapose whatever this is. This isn’t cool, it’s vertically integrated lameness.

@Arnna she is actually of italian lineage on her fathers side..

What alarms me more is that in light of what happened at her manchester gig and all the press releases,,interviews etc where she has spoken out about violence and hatred that she chooses to pocket from this and align her name to one of the most toxic and abusive enviroments known to humanity..the mind boggles..

Lets have a mayhem concert in fortnite please..that will scare the kids..

@fR_eeBritney Perhaps next year? I'm sure she'd do it for her children.

@Party_Cannon
It's not even the first lol

@Northern_munkey it ain’t that deep mate.

No need to even mention what happened in Manchester

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi It's pretty sick though, right?

Who?

(And additional words that blunt the humour of the one word reply)

Wake me up when they bring Elliott Smith back from the dead.

@PossibLeigh I wonder what negative word will be the next 'cool' for the kids. Let's consider the progression; bad - wicked - ill - sick... My money's on 'plague ridden'. What do you think?

@PossibLeigh or maybe syphilitic! Wow, that bass beat is syphilitic, man.

Cool, as if I needed any more reason to not play this. Well, the kids and youtubers will keep playing this and I shall play better games without heavily altered synthetic pop music in it.

@PossibLeigh I've seen the word "slaps" around currently (in game talk and music), no idea where it came from. Does it perhaps slap in a violent manner or more like that of a string to an instrument? I guess I am 29 now and find myself occasionally having the "back in my day" sneak into me and my friends conversations. Guess I am finally at that age where I no longer like most of the new trends.

@Northern_munkey "Grande" wasn't a giveaway? I suppose it could be a stage name, though.

@Jayofmaya Welcome to the club, good friend! Pull up a rocking chair and grab a corn cob pipe. Yeah, I've heard 'slaps', like you I've always equated that to slaping a bass guitar string. Not sure how many kids know what a bass guitar is though.

(Semi) interesting annecdote; I recently completed a teaching placement in a UK college. To my delight many of the teens also thought modern music was crap and they all listened to older music. It was a really pleasent surprise!

@PossibLeigh
I remember hearing on TV and on the bus, the teens saying things were 'reem' a few years ago.
Complete made up nonsense but I guess they knew what they meant.

@Futureshark 'reem'? That's a new one! Maybe from dream, maybe from 'to ream someone out'... I stopped trying to understand years ago.

@Jayofmaya nobody wants to be at that place.
I suggest you broaden your horizons and your palate.
I got a 10k song playlist I finished and there is plenty of new pop music.
And I'm an old-head. Zappa/Floyd/Dylan etc.
Good New Music is like Halsey, Marshmello and Maggie Rogers. If you haven't found good Taylor Swift songs - you aren't even trying. She's amazing. Weeknd. Dua Lipa.

I'm not all that into Ariana's music but I don't really like Travis Scott and I loved his concert! Maybe I'll like this one?

@PossibLeigh
Yeah, I think professional TV moron Joey Essex used to say it, as well as the impressionable youth of the day.

@Northern_munkey Idk if she's Italian or not, nor do I know anything about what @Arnna said, but I can say for certain that we Italians are mostly white, although of course nowadays we're way more integrated with other ethnicities just like the rest of the world. I don't understand why Americans are confused about that: what they call "white" comes from us Europeans, as opposed to "black" having lineage from Africa and "hispanic" from South America. Simple as that.
I know that 100 years ago Italians and Irish were not considered white cause they weren't protestants, but that has everything to do with dehumanization and nothing to do with ethnicity, and it's high time Americans get a grip on that.
Hope it clears things up a bit!

@Spiders great comment!

@Th3solution 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

@MJF of course, there is still good music. Saying 'all modern music is crap' is a bit disingenuous, admittedly (there's lots of good stuff in the alternative rock scene - loving Courtney Barnett at the moment), but in a perverse way, I kinda like being old and dismissive of what 'the kids' like. Even though I'm not the target audience, it's just a bit of fun.

@nessisonett given her character, she easily could have gone the way of Dustin Diamond so it's either a testament to her talent or her team that she's become one of the biggest pop stars in the world. it's not my kind of music but I gotta give her that.

Edit: then again she's also just kind of objectively hot so maybe the Dustin Diamond comparison is unfair lol. In any case, never expected much from Cat.

@PossibLeigh I'm always looking for good music - and generally speaking - large audiences aren't wrong.

there's a reason things are popular.

Looks more like a KDA member in that image.

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi I’m sorry to inform you on this…but Ariana Grande is one of the most loved music artists out there right now. Fortnite also happens to be one of the most played and loved games out there right now. It most definitely is “cool”. You’re just being arrogant.

@MJF Okay, I'm gonna respectfully disagree with you there. The mainstream is often wrong. There are reasons things are popular, yes, but just because something may be popular with certain demographics, it doesn't mean it's the best, or even good, it just means it's had the most exposure.

Generally, (in my opinion, of course) manufactured pop hasn't been good since the days of The Monkees. Of course there are exceptions, but we should never automatically equate popularity with quality.

The best music will always be made by people who are passionate about making music, not people who are passionate about being celebrities or making money.

But, at the end of the day, you do you and enjoy what you enjoy. No one should judge you for that.

Unless you're forcing it on others, like some kinda tween door-to-door Mormon.

@Would_you_kindly I'd give you all the ❤️'s if I could!

@clvr 👊..i just didnt get the "black face" thing as she has always looked kinda latino to me..i read she was of italian heritage so i just presumed that was the reason..no offence meant but thanks for the heads up..

@MJF Our mutual chum, @Would_you_kindly, gives a perfect example. Needle in the Hay is the most popular Elliott Smith song. It's not his best, by a looong way, but it's his most popular song because it was in a popular film (The Royal Tenenbaums). A prime example of how exposure shapes what we listen to.

It's an absolute joke that routinely gets a free pass for blackfishing because "she's Italian". Ten years ago she was white, now she performs alongside Nikki Minaj and is visibly darker than a black woman. It's not just the skin colour either, its her style, that she now speaks with a "blaccent" and uses "hood" imagery for her lyricism.

@AgentMantis honestly don't know why she gets away with it , same with cardi b & that whole drugging & robbing guys thing

@AgentMantis oh wow, I never knew this. I just googled before and after pics. How bizarre.

Maybe she uses the same tanning Salon as Ross from Friends and counts Mississipily. “I’m an Eight!?!?” 🤣

@Would_you_kindly OMG! Thank you for bringing that up. When I see people defend her, for whatever reason, I bring that up. How is it that she can escape cancellation. But, the fact that the few guys who spoke out, were laughed at, says a lot. 😕

@Northern_munkey no offence taken whatsoever, sorry if I gave you that impression! I just wanted to clear that out because I've seen some confusion about it multiple times over the internet 😃
Btw I'm not familiar with this blackface thing either, I always assumed she was of South American descent, given her last name. I'm not well versed in pop stars lol 😆

Dont forget her licking that doughnut and putting it back on the shelf and then giving the staff attitude. Then again, when your as "dope" as her and cool enough to put swears in your music you can do what you like, eh? 🤷‍♂️
All ive got to say to that is.... No thank you, next!

@zupertramp I think you can make the case music today is objectively worse — all in good fun of course. Since the post-Nirvana era, the mainstream has become very “managed”. Artists are more cultivated than discovered. After Napster got obliterated by the record industry, most of the tools that artists had to level the playing field have been captured by old record and radio.
There are some outliers and I’m not super into any scenes — I’m still discovering older music from around the globe — but I think we can agree that the path to success for the truly weird, brilliant, and visionary artists is a lot harder now than if you’re a manageable commodity. Then we can argue about who’s voices we’d rather be hearing.

@Spiders I wanna say absolutely but at the same time I'm not sure it's objectively worse, but definitely very selected, managed, curated, and manufactured. I hesitate to call it worse though, for some reason. But certainly I lament the fact that entire sounds and genres get selected for us by record executives.

Like I wanna yell at people and tell them yes of course you love so and so because that's what they've pushed on you. If they pushed some other sound you'd love that. And don't get me wrong, it's always been that way. Just seems really exaggerated now, what with streaming. Then again the same tools these record companies have at their disposal, so do indie artists. But admittedly discovering new independent artists takes a lot of work. More work than I think most people want to put in, understandably.

All that said, I still think it'd be hard to deny she has an incredible voice, wacky vocalizing trends aside. That can't be said for every pop personality. Y'know, like Britney Spears, since she was mentioned.

@Kidfunkadelic83 my daughter is a fan and I swear I bring up that donut incident like every day lol. I just don't get who's so grossed out by donuts they'd want to ruin them for others. bizarre.

a little annoying too because not long after that we had regular Joe's literally getting charged with crimes for licking ice cream containers. But y'know, celebrities.

@PossibLeigh yeah I basically only know Elliott Smith because of that film. It's a darn good song but obviously Between the Bars is his best, and it's even better sung by Madeleine Peyroux.

@zupertramp 😲 Britney has a great voice. Sure, she’s no Whitney or Mariah but there’s a uniqueness to her voice that’s instantly recognisable (and pleasant to my ears at least). Her ‘In The Zone’ album being Britney at her peak vocally imo.

She sounds better when her voice is more natural. They tend to overly process her vocals now but she probably doesn’t have any control over that unfortunately.

I hope she manages to break away from her situation and find some peace in her life. Maybe make new music on her own terms. She still has an army of fans behind her.

@zupertramp Do you hesitate to call it worse because it would make you feel old too? That’s why I do.

@Spiders Nah I just think maybe it's that it's all too subject anyway. Like who am I to say... that kind of thing. I don't mind being old.

@fR_eeBritney so getting this out of the way first - I haven't closely followed her conservatorship but if it is in fact unjustified and truly an abuse of power then certainly I hope that she's able to regain control over her life.

That said we'll have to agree to disagree on her voice. Granted it is unique and that's fine. I think Shakira's Unplugged album is a masterpiece even though I admit her voice is not the greatest, but I like it. Same goes for Gwen Stefani. Uniqueness can go a long way. But a lot of these people sound really poor live. It's usually their energy, or showmanship that makes up for a lack of technical ability. Not everyone can be Queen Mariah for sure but admittedly, Grande comes close.

@zupertramp you checked out Nirvana's MTV unplugged that they did? Now that is one master piece of a stripped back album. Even better when you watch it being sung on YouTube. One incredibly raw and recognisable voice. Send shivers every time i watch it.

Seeing this artist always makes me wonder where Dan Schneider went. One of life's great mysteries....

@zupertramp Hey, man! Nice to meet a fellow fan.

Between the Bars is great and I actually prefer the original to Peyroux's version, though I love her too, but (and excuse me going full Uber nerd, but I'm slightly obsessed with his music) he has done much better.

Maybe not lyrically, as the lyrics to that song are very clever, but if you've not already, then I urge you to listen to the album 'Figure 8'.

Needle in the Hay and Between the Bars are tonally very similar (ie quite 'sad'), but he's got more range than that. Try LA and Happiness (Figure 8), or Alameda, Angeles or Say Yes (Either/or) to get a taste of his full range. And then listen to Condor Avenue, which he wrote when he was 17, on his 1st album to be blown away by his skill.

Apologies if you've already experienced all of them. I can't help but evangelise when it comes to ES!

Not sure if linking to YouTube is allowed, but will give it a go!

LA: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WxLn44KhFrc

Happiness: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hadz9rZH5zI

Alameda: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WcRgqXYmzZE

Angeles: https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&search_query=angeles+elliott+smith

Say Yes: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NcalJSO6jDY

Condor Ave: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FtRQyqBe1WI

Cheers chap!

@Spiders Don't hesitate, dude! Embrace it! Cast your elderly scorn far and wide. It's one of the only pleasures of being 'old'! 😅

@PossibLeigh That's cool to hear, you should also keep an ear out for fans of Animals as Leaders and some other bands from the 2000s. They push boundaries on what a guitar can do.

https://youtu.be/W2mrAgJ2DdI

That's a very spanish classical piece but they have a varied sound.

@MJF I'm ok, dude. Heard most of those. I don't need broader horizons. I listen to punk, post-hardcore, metal (and it'smyriad of subgenres), old school rap, folk, big band, 80s ballads and synth and progressive house/trance. I have music for months of straight listening if I wanted to.

@PossibLeigh Listen... I am into that! I try to be really fair about it with younger people — fairer than I really think, but it’s really as easy as putting young people onto music that is great.
For my money, a lot of the good music today is looking back in time anyway. I think on the whole that synth wave and other genres are doing the 80s vibe “better” — it’s like rose-tinted glasses for your ears. I think hip-hop has lost most of it’s soul and authenticity, but there’s no doubt about the talent in production, lyrics, and innovative cadences.

Even when I was a kid in the 90s I found my “future” in the past, learning about the 70s UK punk scene, roots reggae, and on and on.

Most young people I’ve connected to music from the past become a bit disappointed in the present.

I also think “how” we listened to music has degraded over time, and has probably influenced the way music is written more than we realize. As much as I am still in awe at how fast I can spool up any song I can think of, and discover new (old) music — this must be heaven, right? — the second order effects are that listeners today are primed for track skipping, short & catchy, algorithm curated playlists, etc.
With records and tape, you’re primed to listen to full albums, just because it’s difficult to skip tracks. Who listens to albums anymore? Who listens to songs they don’t like? It took me almost 20 years to come to grips with a triple-album like ¡Sandinista!, mostly because I had it on CD and could skip tracks I didn’t like, which were most of them when I was a teenager. A modern album I do like, for example (no shame) is Paramore’s After Laughter. Let’s be real — it’s 12 a “hits” compilation, not an album. There’s no journey, there’s no reflective moments, there’s no challenge. There’s no A-side/B-side. Like I said, I love it, but it loses nothing being played on shuffle.

Tapes introduced the ability to make mix tapes for people, but the fact is that it took at least as long to make one as it did to listen to it. There’s a lot more investment and sentimental value baked into the concept just due to the mechanics of it.

Radio stations had request lines. You could listen and participate in a shared experience that wasn’t mediated by companies. I grew up in a small town, and the only way I could listen to the Dead Kennedys was to request it from my local radio station. It was literally an event. Now I can ask Siri. This could be an argument against older music, but there’s a lot of emotional value that was able to be added just by the limitations of the technology and distribution, and the ways we did (or didn’t) get around them.

@Spiders Dude, I could not agree with what you're saying more! I'm as guilty of changing how I listen to music as anyone. It's rare that I put on specific abums these days. Instead I just put my 120 GB collection on random and skip if something I'm not in the mood for comes along. Honestly, I think I have enough 'old' music to last me a lifetime. Plus, I'm a singalonger, so tend to favour stuff I already know.

You're right when you say the way we consume is changing. Not just music, everything. I don't have the attention span I used to, so I'd imagine the kids have no hope!

I do try not to dismiss stuff out of hand and we need to remember that the best music does take some effort to appreciate (like everything Radiohead have done since OK Computer), but mainstream stuff will never be my jam. And I'm fine with that.

Stay cool, brother.

@Jayofmaya Love a bit of Big Band...

@Jayofmaya That's technically outstanding, man! Thanks for sharing. Not my cup of tea (I prefer something with lyrics to sing along with), but amazing skill!

@PossibLeigh You too! Interesting question: we're both older people with impeccable taste — do you find you feel the opposite about older video games? I definitely have a bias towards new games, even if they're "retro" experiences. The "fist-shaking" seems to mostly be around F2P, mobile, and DLC/MTX, but there's been seismic shifts in how we consume games that maybe we're not noticing because we're the frogs in the slow boiling pot for the last however many years. Any thoughts?

@Kidfunkadelic83 definitely, that album is like the benchmark for acoustic sets. I'm not even a huge Nirvana fan but appreciate their unplugged.

Edit: *I should say, more stripped down sets as I don't think that show is entirely acoustic but you get what I mean I hope.

@PossibLeigh well I'm certainly partial to slow and sad so that could explain my gravitation toward those songs. I know there are others I like but now that I think of it I don't think I've ever sat down and listened to any of his albums in their entirety. As you say, that rarely happens now. I'm usually putting my collection on random or picking a genre/playlist I like in Spotify and going from there. Because, like, what's an attention span?

@fR_eeBritney fwiw I really like the song Sometimes. Very sentimental for me.

@zupertramp i do know exactly what you mean. I dont mind Nirvana ut defenately prefer the stripped back vulnerability of that set they did. I didnt know Kurt's voice was that good until i heard that.

@PossibLeigh No worries! Feel free to suggest something I may not know back. I also listen to some 60s from Del Shannon and The Animals and obviously a bit of reggae, too. I think my main contention with pop is that it's exactly that, way too popular for what it is, overshadowing people who put a lot of soul and hard work into their music. I see you have already brushed up on this with others in these comments, as well!

@Spiders That IS an interesting question! I guess in the grand scheme of things video games are still a 'young' medium. But I, as I suspect you are, am definitely old enough to have rose tinted glasses about old games. Generally, I think I prefer modern games for the overall progress that has been made in things like game design, animation, physics, AI (uh, not so much that one), UI and responsiveness. The range of experiences that are available now enabled by the progress of technology is quite exciting. I'm probably fairly unique in gaming though in that I'm not into online play and don't appreciate generic game design.

We've definitely moved from the wild creativity of the early years into something more akin to manufactured pop, but, just like the music scene, it just means we have to look a little harder for worthwhile experiences.

Interestingly, early games were often defined by technological limitations and the creativity needed to work around that. As those limitations disappear, we are loosing some of that creativity. That's why I'm mainly an 'indie' gamer, though that classification is problematic these days.

There are outliers, of course. I'm immensely enjoying Death Stranding. A game that probably wouldn't have been possible a generation ago.

The ubiquitous nature of gaming today had changed consumption. I find myself craving a new experience, even if I've got half a dozen games half finished and it's almost become more about that first rush of stimulation rather than progressing and beating one game. It's a far cry from waiting 20 minutes for Robocop to load on the Speccy to play through for the dozenth time!

So, yeah, I think we are a bit spoilt now and the industry is becoming more like the music industry every day. Even those creators who are doing it for the love of the medium have to battle through a ton of corporate *****, like loot boxes etc...

Out of curiosity, how did you get started on this crazy hobby?

@zupertramp Yeah big fan of slow and sad myself. Some people say music like that is miserable, I think it's beautiful.

I'm guessing from the hours that you post that you're in America? Have you heard a British band called Tindersticks? They are very, very English so might not tickle your fancy, but at their best they are supremely atmospheric. Some of their songs perfectly conjour the atmosphere of a rainy London Sunday. Another Night In is a good example and The Hungry Saw is good if you want something a bit more up tempo. Only a bit, mind.

@Jayofmaya well, you sound very eclectic, mate, so there's probably not much I know that you're not already familiar with! How are you with Baltic rock? Gogol Bordello are pretty special.

My tastes vary but tend to gravitate towards folk, indie, jazz, bluegrass, a bit of world, a fair bit of scandi pop, some French stuff, some Asian... Oh, do you know Cibo Matto? Moon child isn't very typical of them, technically it's R&B (though not real R&B, but what passes for it these days) which isn't a genre I like, but this song, man. Gets me in the feels every time.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3y3C6jAmC2w

@Spiders Haha, sorry chap. I'm not used to being asked my opinion! I think it went to my head and resulted in that very long stream of consciousness! 😅

@PossibLeigh Oh god... first game I can remember playing was the Atari Star Wars arcade game with the vector graphics, I was probably 3 or 4.
I had a friend whose parents got a Nintendo in that initial New York run that I watched him play every weekend (I was scared to play anything but the lightgun games), and then we got one in ‘85 or ‘86. We didn’t get the version with ROB and the Zapper, so with some privacy I got the courage up to play SMB, cleared the first pit, and that was that.

No no worries! If we can get a comment section past short quips, I’ll read the whole book of rants haha.

@PossibLeigh I think about that too... if it’s because the medium is so young and the technical hurdles get leaped so fast that we don’t look back for very long.

I’m a huge indie game fan too, and I think a lot of those developers have managed to rescue a lot of the past. I even look at the rogue-lite trend as some kind of echo of the particular way coin-op arcade games designed loops before Street Fighter II effectively ended that era.

I think there’s something really cool that we get to do as old heads — or at least I do — where I can kind of imagine what it would have been like to be a kid, when Evander Holyfield Boxing or Lethal Enforcers looked “real”, and then imagine playing something like Katana Zero or Subnautica and just let myself be blown away, even if they’re not setting today’s GPUs on fire.

@PossibLeigh American, yes. I'll give them a listen along with the Elliot Smith recommendations. Cheers!

@PossibLeigh I personally enjoy Frank Zappa and the Melvins and like Lustmord
but I respect a great pop song too. and there is always good pop music being made.
that's why it's "pop"

@Jayofmaya you definitely sound like you need to broaden your horizons.
I'm sure you don't know how much music it takes to fill an entire month, either.
(it takes about 10k songs)

@MJF Ok then, good sir. Please inform me how I need to listen to every genre ever created by man kind and how you definitely listen to all of them... Then I shall proceed to laugh and ignore any further comments from you. Take care and let people dislike things that you do not.

@PossibLeigh I am a fan of Gogol Bordello Went to see them with a friend a couple of years back! Just about to take a listen to the other, though. Not heard!

@Spiders oh, man reaches for rose tinted specs that Star Wars arcade game was epic! I do lament the downfall of arcades a bit, but my sofa is so much more comfortable!

@Spiders Big indie fan here, too. It's where most of the innovation lies these days.

@MJF I agree! Pop is a favourite genre of mine - indie pop, scandi-pop etc... Great riffs and hooks with catchy lyrics distilled into 3 or so minutes. What's not to love? It's manufactured pop I don't care for.

@Jayofmaya Oh wow! That must have been a good gig! Would love to see them live!

@PossibLeigh nobody except for you mentioned manufactured pop - not sure why you even brought that term up besides giving yourself something to bash

@Jayofmaya I never said you need to listen to every genre or that you need to like what I like.
but you keep on swinging at your own strawman!
you kids are so good at that.

@MJF No, but despite me listening to probably more genres than you (as demonstrated per my comment), you still tried to double down on your remark and it was a waste of time.

@PossibLeigh I liked Cibo Matto btw. One thing I didn't dig as much was the organ type sound in the back, it stayed mostly the same throughout (good continuity but personally would have liked a shift in dynamics), but the rest was great.

@PossibLeigh I mourn for the arcade, both the physical places and the game design principles.

This gen, I'm loving Downwell (the GOAT), Curse's N Chaos (single-screen score attack), and Hatsune Miku Project Diva Future Tone (with an arcade stick/hitbox it feels like owning a SEGA cabinet).

Roguelites/likes really scratch that itch for me too... the "1CC" concept is really baked into the design.

You got any arcade or arcade-like favs this generation?

@MJF Kids! You're getting arrogant their, friend.

@Jayofmaya Ah, fair enough, chap. We differ there. I quite like a monotone running in the background. Reminds me of a French artist called Camille (kinda hip hoppy) who did a whole album with one same monotone running on the background of each song. I'm guessing you'd hate that, but I thought it was quite clever. Due to listening to everything on random, I didn't actually realize until a friend pointed it out!

If you haven't already, it's worth checking out some more Cibo Matto. Most of their stuffs a bit more hip hop orientated than that one tune.

Totally different and a bit random, but it just popped into my head, are you familiar with the Canadian band, The Dodos?

@Spiders For me I think the thrill of the arcade was a sensory one; the sounds, lights and smells were intoxicating (okay, maybe not the smells!). I remember when arcade games began evolving with added accessories. Afterburner and Outrun. Operation Wolf was a favourite from that era.

Since it's become a mostly home based hobby I've graviated away from arcade like experiences to focus more on narrative and overall style (Okami being one of my favourite games ever).

I think you've mentioned something interesting about roguelikes there that I've not considered before. They definitely have that 'one more go' feel the best arcade games had. I love the variety on a theme the best examples provide. Recently I've been playing Curse of the Dead Gods on PS, which is a pretty good one. The hardest thing in that game is not overcommitting your stamina reserves and leaving oneself short. Are you a lucky PS5 owner and if so did you try Returnal? I'd like to know your thoughts on it. Oh, and I freely admit to getting a bit lost over the difference between a roguelike and a roguelite, so forgive me if I make that particular faux pas.

You've mentioned three games I've not played (I only actually know of Downfall from those three), which just shows how broad the industry is now. So I'll be looking those up later, thanks!

Overall, I think I'm glad that games have expanded their scope, but there's definitely a place for good old fashioned old school arcade games.

I've a fondness for twin stick shooters too (Smash TV!), so I'm tempted by The Ascent, but don't really wanna get into a loot grind (one of the less appealing aspects of modern games).

@PossibLeigh manufactured and mainstream are not even close to the same word - and they don't have the same meaning or even remotely close to the same meaning.
so you shouldn't conflate those terms like you did.
you also shouldn't say manufactured = mainstream, those things don't mean the same thing.
You seem to want to insult mainstream music by saying it is manufactured.
All music is manufactured.

This is like playing basketball against 1st graders.

@Jayofmaya no, what you said here isn't true at all.
I own over 1000 actual cds - bought from the store - I've been in multiple bands - and worked at a record label.
I've performed in over 50 concerts.
Like I said before - you clearly need to broaden your horizons.

@PossibLeigh There was a bar/restaurant by me when I was a kid with Outrun (standup can with pedals) and Operation Wolf! They always had a long wait so I loved going there haha.

Totally agree about the sense experience - in my teens there was a billiards/arcade with ashtrays mounted to the side of cabinets. A lot more mingling of adults and teens too, it was very cool. The polar opposite of today’s toxic online multiplayer vibe.

I just grabbed Curse of the Dead Gods on Gamepass... it’s fun so far. Very methodical combat — I’m still trying to zip around like I’m playing Hades so I’m getting wrecked, but I really like the corruption/curse mechanic and the short run length. Star Renegades is another one I’m really enjoying... it’s like a really in-depth JRPG combat system with everything else boiled away. It’s not a strong storyteller, but it does a decent job of feeling like each run is its own adventure each time.

I don’t have a PS5, but Returnal is the number one reason I want one. Nex Machina is a big favorite of mine, and I really wanted to see how one of the best modern arcade-loop devs did roguelite/like.

I love Okami too. It felt a little over-long the second time through with the HD version, but at the time I thought that was a huge positive coming off the undercooked Wind Waker. Realizing the “final boss” was only about 1/3 into the game was awesome.

Mileage may very with the Ascent... I didn’t get to play it long enough to get a feel for the full loop, it was unplayable on my PC (Gamepass)... literal slideshow during explosions which is every boss. The combat is methodical like Curse, at least in solo... you really want to hit your shots and manage your reloads and positioning which I liked.

@MJF You’re being pedantic about the term “manufactured”... the distinction is really between manufactured as being produced based on a market demand, versus inspired, like something that comes from within or beyond that has to come out of you in artistic expression or you will go mad, maybe even explode.

Pop is a twisted beast, because so much of it layers and layers of artists — it’s kind of a team sport. It’s tough to swallow teens singing songs written by old men in the business of songwriting, the managed personalities, the corporate oversight, etc.

It takes a special kind of person to find the heart through all that, or just mournfully accept that all the emotion is being produced on the listening end. The third possibility is that you just like whatever comes down the pipe into the trough because you don’t think about it.

Music has a quality that it can accept “third-party” meaning into it’s matrix. It makes it difficult to be judgemental because everyone’s taste is loaded with personal meaning that is difficult to transfer to each other in today’s climate of corporate mediated playlists and peer sharing.

All that may exist on some kind of spectrum, but even if there is “inspired” music in the mainstream, it’s so processed by the mechanisms of commodification that who could even tell? And why bother? Manufactured is perfectly descriptive of mainstream music, and worse, anything inspired that does break through gets swallowed by the processes and mechanisms.

@MJF You are being willfully pedantic. Of course everything non natural is maufactured. The meaning of my statement was clear to others. The use of the term 'manufactured' to mean cynical, packaged pop meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator has been widly used for decades.

It's strange how someone so au fait with the music industry as yourself seems unaware of this.

@Spiders Star Renegades sounds interesting, I'll check that out, thanks!

Yeah, I went from Returnal to Curse... Some adjustment was necessary! 😂

Returnal is a good game, even if it could do with some more variety in it's guns. It is a great game for getting in the zone though and the boss fights get the blood pumping fantastically. I'm glad to see it's giving the genre more exposure, along with the likes of Hades. Unfortunately, I got too annoyed with loosing progress due to bugs and crashes, so sold it before it's second hand value dipped. The curse of the early adopter!

I don't know if fantasy themed games are your bag or not, but Wildermyth on PC is pretty good. I was really enjoying it, but have hit a bit of a difficulty spike on one of the harder difficulties. It's pretty inventively structured, even if nothing it does is totally original, apart maybe from the way magic is handled as infusions into objects, which can then be exploded or otherwise manipluated to ruin the bad guys days. It adds another layer to the tactical turn based battles.

@PossibLeigh I checked out Birthday Cake, Aguas de Marco (water of Mark? Haha) and Blue Train. All completely different genres really haha I liked them, though. Had a hip-hop sound, then a bossa nova feel and then a heavy rock song. Apparently John Lennon's son is their bassist in some performances and one of the girls is in Gorillaz. Wonder how they met. Did you know what Cibo Matto means in Italian btw?

Anyway, I have not heard of The Dodos, either so will give them a listen, too.

@MJF You have 0 reason to say this. You know nothing of me and just because I don't like modern day pop (and modern club/mumble rap) you keep saying this same nonsense. Given all this info only the ignorant would try to keep this stance of yours. I trust this settles the matter.

@PossibLeigh Yeah, tbh I don't believe him, either. What does owning lots of CDs have to do with anything, anyway? I used to own hundreds as well. Not sure what he's trying to prove anymore. You are most likely right, he's probably pretty angry about something in his life and is just trolling us to feel better temporarily. Might as well leave him to it tbh.

@MJF manufactured pop ends up in the mainstream. That's what it aims for, that's where it ends up. It is its entire reason to exist. But is it the whole of the mainstream? Of course not.

You're operating under a misunderstanding that my use of 'manufactured = mainstream' meant that's all I think the mainstream is. Which I did not intend, otherwise I would have said Mainstream = manufactured pop. I'm aware that the mainstream is many things, but you can't deny that all music created for the express purpose of making money, rather than a combined desire to make money and be artistically creative, aims for the mainstream, because that's where the most money is. The lowest common denominator.

Basically, I celebrate individuality and expression, you champion generic and cynically produced music. Cool. You go do you. And, again, I'm not saying that doesn't have value (it's normal for peopel to travel through the mainstream before they look harder and find something that appeals to them on a more personal level. It's generally part of most people's musical journey, some people get stuck there and that's their choice).

You've ascribed a duality of thought to me (everything is either this or that with no in between) I never intended to present. I used 'manufactured = mainstream' as a short hand that I thought easy to understand by anyone who was actually engaging in debate (as I believed you were). Others seemed to understand it, but you've just used it as a vehicle for petty, pedantic commentary that adds nothing to any ongoing conversation.

You are intentionally getting hung up (or not, I suspect you don't actually care and this is you're idea of fun) on a facet of a wider opinion whilst ignoring other points. Probably for the purposes of winding me up. It's a horrible way to behave and I suspect you wouldn't dream of behaving in such a way in the real world.

And before you say it, yes, there can be creativity in the mainstream, but it's usually from background staff; the actual song writers and producers, who don't need their names up in lights. Any genre of music can fall under this extended meaning of the word 'manufactured', which is why I used the word standing alone in that context, rather than singling out a genre, such as pop.

So you now say you do know the meaning of the term manufactured pop! Which makes your earlier protestations of it's use as a term look rather silly.

It really didn't have to be this way. I think (but could be wrong) it was you saying you are an 'old head' citing Dylan and others in a previous comment? If so, then we probably have more in common taste wise than you'd care to admit, but rather than find some middle ground, you take an adversarial stance over something so petty.

You believe I'm wrong, I made clear what I believe about you already. Let's, for the sake of the poor moderators, just leave it at that, eh? I'm never gonna change your mind, you're never gonna change mine.

If you continue, you're just confirming your intentions to inflame, rather than discuss. It's the weekend, the weather's nice (where I am, anyway). Let's call a truce here and walk away. (It's actually a bit embarrassing to look back and see how much energy we've both wasted on this)

@Jayofmaya 😂 My rightous sense of keyboard warrior justice keeps dragging me back in!

Check out the songs 'The Season' and 'Winter'. The album Visiter is really good, but then, for some unknown reason, they added a xylophone player (previously a two-piece). Nothing against xylophone as an instrument, but on every song it gets a little tired!

I didn't know that about the bassist and one of the singers of C.M.! That's very, very cool. Especially the Gorillaz connection.

Haha, I've just checked out the meaning! 'Crazy food'! I'm kinda glad they expanded out from that initial remit!

@MJF I didn’t substitute a word, I provided an antonym for context and better clarity.
You’re saying manufactured but as opposed to what? Found in nature? A birdsong?
Technically children are “manufactured”, but if we’re comparing children and robots, the meaning is obviously different, and you would be pedantic to say otherwise.

As it stands, I completely disagree with you, and I think many artists would as well. I think you should clarify your point better because your strict definition of manufactured is a lame hill to die on.

@PossibLeigh I heard really good things about Wildermyth but I think it was on my radar before I started gaming on PC so I’ll have to check it out. Good controller support? I’m still a PC noob haha.

@PossibLeigh Maybe off-topic, but this reminds me of a really interesting and frustrating conversation between Eric Weinstein and Joe Rogan about subjective/objective when it comes to music, greatness, and opinions. I really liked what Eric was trying to get across because I do believe it: that somewhere deep down there is an objective beauty or grace or what-have-you that we can sort of identify if not fully qualify. For example, I know Stevie Ray Vaughn is an amazing guitar player, even though subjectively he doesn’t make music I enjoy. But I think it cuts the other way too, there are things that can be enjoyed that have the objective quality of un-greatness, of un-beauty, etc., and it’s very difficult to get that point across. McDonalds is objectively of a lower quality than, well, most food, but it is enjoyed by millions of people for reasons other than fact. We can even agree with that fact and still find reasons to enjoy it. That’s kind of obvious, right? The fun part is, you could argue for a meta-objective greatness like @MJF ‘s “a million flies on a turd can’t be wrong” theory of good pop music, or you can argue that McDonald’s is so absent of meaning and value that it becomes a really potent vessel for added meaning from the user. Many of us have dear memories of Happy Meals as children that was really a product of ourselves and our families, but McDonalds can absorb it. That’s my theory of pop music - and most music really. Greatness in music is really our ability as listeners to transfer value to music, and more importantly recover it from music and share it.
If you really love music, you should be able to do that for any work. I should be able to convince you that Wooly Bully by Sam Sham and the Pharoahs is the greatest song of all-time, and by the time I’m done, I may have made that song better in your mind without having changed a note. I think you be able should defend what you like to the bitter end, because the only thing that can possibly be true is that you think you like it. We should be looking for objective truth and not always retreat to the subjective... to tie it back to the comments that started this all, if I think your music sucks, “you’re old” ain’t gunna cut it. I think @fR_eeBritney has a very strong opinion here that kind of stopped me in my tracks, but I’d like to see the points be argued as an objective quality of said music, not an opinion it’s ok, or even possible to dismiss.

/rant

@Spiders ah, actually not sure about that. I'm playing on my laptop as my gaming PC is stuck in China with a lot of my possessions and my girlfriend! 🤣 Bloody pandemic! The bulk of the game is turn based tactics and I find they always play best with a mouse (or mousepad in my case). But at least Steam has a two hour refund policy! Kinda wish Sony would follow suit.

@Spiders wow, that was a really great think piece that makes a lot of sense to me! Especially the part about transferring meaning. Hats off, sir.

Yes, whatever the original point was between MJF and I have been lost and obscured by lots of 'but you said' on both sides, hence me loosing track. The sad part being he and I probably have a lot more in common musically than we don't, if we'd only been able to bridge the divide.

Anyway, I've realised there is an ignore option and used it. I feel much happier now!

@Spiders Star Renegades looks really good! Not sure how I missed that one. Thanks for letting me know. I've wishlisted it for when I have more money.

@Northern_munkey which doesn’t make her a person of colour it makes her a white European.

@Spiders I try not to limit myself when it comes to music. I love all kinds of music, in every genre, 1920’s - Present (even further back if we’re including Classical/Operatic). I don’t think I’ve ever heard any song or piece of music I didn’t like (and I’ve heard a lot). I’d never look down at anyone for their musical preferences. The most important thing is how music makes you feel. Whether that’s happy, sad, angry, chill, or whatever.

I just like what I like, which is pretty much everything 😁 I must be an old soul (or several).

@Arnna yes thats already been explained in a much better,more detailed post to me thank you...try to keep up...

@Northern_munkey ok no need for the snark. Forgive me for not reading all 140 posts.

@PossibLeigh
-I'll still check it out... I'm actually looking for a "baby's first KB+M game"; something to ease me into some of the more exclusive or "better on" PC games. Any recommendations welcome:)
-Thanks! I spend too much time thinking about stuff like that haha. I'm really interested in media theory. Douglass Rushkoff got the ball rolling for me talking about how the mediums of commercial music like records, tape, CDs, etc. affect how we listen and I just ran with it with a bit of a musician's perspective. I also love games way too much, so I try to think about it like that. If you find that kind of stuff interesting, I'd recommend any of his books, or his podcast 'Team Human'.
-I just had a 3 hour session with Star Renegades last night... really moreish and they do a great job (I think) layering in complexity. Basically the best fighting system in the JRPG idiom, and everything else hangs on that. The pixel art is out of this world good. It reminds me of Grandia crossed with Into The Breach, with a dash of Radiant Historia. A bit of a learning curve, but it's fun to figure out. I grabbed it on Xbox Gamepass for PC, and I'm still on my $1 trial. Check out that library on there because for me it's worth it on indie games alone, and it's pretty cheap for the PC-only package.
-@MJF is really frustrating because like you said, there might be a lot of agreement there with interesting differences. It's very difficult to disagree well online. If there's any nonsense you miss, I'll go to bat for ya;)

@fR_eeBritney I feel that way about movies... I can only think of a handful I really didn't enjoy, but it definitely happens more often the older I get haha.
Still, I like my idea/theory about your enjoyment of music being a "listener-side" quality rather than intrinsic to the music. At the very least, we can agree that some music takes a lot more work to enjoy or see the beauty/greatness/value in. At best, it gives a way to appreciate music in a more active way — less as a consumer of a product and more as a participant in culture.
Touching on what I was thinking out loud about with @PossibLeigh yesterday, culture is really that layer that we transmit meaning with to one another. I think Bob Marley is a fun example here. As a big reggae/ska/dub fan, I find Bob Marley very milquetoast and average. BUT! It was his music that was among the gateways for me into that genre/culture. Plus, when you add in the context of not only how he brought reggae to the entire world, but what he was able to accomplish socially and politically at the time, it elevates his music to something closer to modern scripture. There's a divine or spiritual quality to it. That kind of thinking really changes how we can judge music, or it's cultural value in a profound way I think. It's one thing to speak on one's personal enjoyment, but, for example: I love 50 Cent/Curtis Jackson, but to compare him to Chuck D/Public Enemy in terms of positive cultural impact, one looks like a hustler and one looks like a prophet. When you can see what a powerful medium music and here hip-hop can be, it becomes a much more interesting comparison. I'll even take the other side of it: I think while Public Enemy was instrumental in getting people "woke" (the pre-modern meaning) to issues in the Black community, 50 Cent has over his career focused on elevating the individual, and in the Glenn Loury sense is doing the work of changing the culture and mindset for black youth to get away from a culture of victimhood and take charge of their circumstances.
Again, we could agree or disagree, but I think this is a more valuable way to talk about music that's a little deeper than "I like Apple Jacks because they taste like apples", where we assert the objective then retreat to the subjective, or, in @MJF 's case, vice-versa.
I'd like to see the version of your take where you not only "like" Ariana Grande or Britney Spears, but can explain to me why I'm an uncultured swine for not understanding or appreciating their work:)

@PossibLeigh Good songs, thanks for the suggestions! I'll definitely go for some return listens to The Season, the percussion was very interesting both in sound and timing towards the end. Took me a while to get round to listening but on public transport on a lovely sunny day and the songs made it even better! Hope you're doing well, mate.

I'm good, dude, thanks. Yeah, I had a feeling you might appreciate that drumming! 😃

@Spiders Hey, man. I've just jumped back onto this old thread to let you know that roguelike FPS Void Bastards is free on Epic Games store this week. I've not tried it yet, but have heard good things about it. Apologies if you know this already!

@PossibLeigh No I didn’t! That’s really cool you thought of me I really appreciate it!!! Downloading as soon as I get home. How you been? What have you been playing?

Been alright, cheers chap. Not been playing much. In fact, I've just sold my PS5 to make ends meet until I start my dream job working in a supermarket! 🤣 Also means I've got no gamepad, so haven't really been able to check out Void Bastards yet (FPS on a laptop trackpad? No thanks!). I have been playing Star Renegades though. I like it, but have hit a frustrating wall with the second worlds boss. Gonna try it again tonight, but I can see the games gonna get more complex with stat afflictions and it may just be too much for me! 😂 Hope you're good!