Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and it seems that’s exactly what Xbox has cooking for the latter half of the generation. While the DualSense controller, with its haptic feedback and adaptive triggers, has represented a pivotal part of the PS5’s marketing since launch, it looks like Microsoft is poised to borrow some ideas from the pad with its mid-gen refresh.
Court documents, which have basically outed the Redmond firm’s entire upcoming product portfolio, confirm a new controller named Sebile, which has “precision haptic feedback” as one of its selling points. Microsoft even promises that with the pad you’ll be able to “feel the game” – a marketing slogan that feels straight out of Sony’s PS5 playbook.
There’s no mention of adaptive triggers, so it looks like the Team in Green doesn’t see that as a particularly enticing feature, but there will be an accelerometer and modular thumb sticks. Obviously, Nintendo also has haptic feedback in its JoyCon controllers, but Sony took things to the next level with the unique textures made possible by the DualSense.
The positive here is that with Microsoft also joining the party, third-party publishers may be more encouraged to make good use of the features across all consoles.
[source files.cand.uscourts.gov]
Comments 70
What good are those "unique features" if hardly any developer implements them as they should be?
I am still waiting for a game that uses dualsense like the Astro's Playroom, with its possibilities I expected much more from the other games.
@tofuman86 "The positive here is that with Microsoft also joining the party, third-party publishers may be more encouraged to make good use of the features across all consoles."
not the first time they copy ideas for controller .
Never had build in sharebutton.
So Xbox also finally gets HD Rumble?
I bought a Series S last year after not owning an Xbox since 2008. I can live without the haptics - Bluetooth audio and quieter buttons (the dpad clicks are loud!) are the most welcome improvements here.
I use a PS5 controller on PC, but none of the games I play uses the unique features of the controller. I hope with this will change in the future. Doesn't really matter to me tho if they don't, I didn't get the controller for its features. Got it coz it's comfortable and I'm used to PS controllers. Also I hate the current xbox controller.
And PlayStation ripped off trophies from XBox achievements. Business is Business, simple as that.
All companies do this. Apple copies Samsung. Sony copies Xbox.
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery
it's stupid not to copy successful things
This is great. I was just having a conversion yesterday about MSs focus on Gamepass and play anywhere leading to a lack of hardware innovation. Both around controllers and things like VR. Shame there are no adaptive triggers, but I can see how they still don’t want to implement any game altering features that aren’t possible on phones in case people want to stream to a device without a controller. At least that leaves room for the motion controls though, which will be good for more accurate aiming in shooters and such.
Modern Xbox just so unoriginal and mediocre I just wish we can get the 360 days back.
Well the dualsense triggers are basically just an evolutionary concept of the pulse triggers Microsoft came up with for the Xbox One, and haptics are far from being a Sony innovation, they borrowed that from mobile devices. Then there's sixaxis, an idea Sony borrowed from Nintendo. Heck even the analog stick is an idea they borrowed from Sega, same deal with analog triggers. The touchpad? Borrowed that from laptops. Speaker? Another idea borrowed from mobile devices.
In any case if Microsoft made a controller with symmetric sticks and proper dpad I would buy it day one.
@HwuaiLiang the bulk of Sony's blockbusters were from studios that Sony once acquired though 😂😂😂.
@cragis0001 Shh, PS fanboys don't like it when anybody brings that up.
I think Microsoft should copy the switch and ps5 interface not being endless advertisement first.
XBOX controller scheme is really bad to play Dance Dance Revolution games on XBOX and XBOX 360.
If you can beat em, steal em, lol. But at least 3rd party support will increase if microsoft has haptic feedback controller too.
Awful, awful microsoft, copying ideas…. Shame on them… ooops, I got so mad I dropped my WII U pad..
It's good to see Xbox taking these ideas from Sony who in turn iterated from Nintendo and their HD rumble and Xbox's own trigger rumble and I've seen Nintendo patents for a hall effect style analogue stick to finally catch up with Sega from nearly 30 years ago
It's amazing how divided everyone is over symmetrical VS asymmetrical control stick placement. I suppose it's a case of what you're used to but I've always preferred Xbox layout. Ever since analogue controls became the main way to play games, it seemed that having the left stick higher up made more sense.
It does bother me how little the DualSense features are used well in games though so hopefully this can help standardise that across third parties.
@carlos82 Nintendo's HD rumble is just regular controller vibration with tiny, cheap motors. It's not haptic feedback. Nor are the Xbox's triggers. Sony didn't invent haptic feedback but they did or before MS or Nintendo - same as Atari did analogue WAY before Nintendo but you can maybe give them credit for bringing it back before Sony and Sega - albeit terribly implemented with a single, tall stick, hexagonal gate and no way to use the dpad at the same time; all things ignored by the standard going forwards. If remember correctly, the Steam controller had haptic first out of all major platforms but still didn't invent it.
Don't even notice any real difference when playing games on ps5 or Xbox controller wise...I knew at the time it was all blown out of proportion how good the ps5 controller was...so much so I thought I might have a broken controller the way some people went on about how good it was...I remember playing death stranding messing with the setting and what not trying to 'feel the different terrain'. ...all felt the same lol....so if Xbox are doing this ...meh
Can't say I "feel the game". (sounds a bit rude!)
Astro's Playroom was just a tech demo with a Tearaway style game on top. Did the 'haptic' buzzing make me more engaged with the game? No.
Only decent use for rumble is controller heartbeat when your health is getting low or going over the kerbs in racing games but the DS4 does that perfectly well.
To me, the DS5 seems like a cheaply-made, more uncomfortable and far too overweight DS4.
I just wish Sony would allow us to use DS4s on PS5 games 'cos I don't think we'd be losing anything by doing so (but Fony would be losing out on the $$$)
It is a cool feature in games lik HFW where if u stealth through a bush or ride a mount u can feel it. It does add to the immersion, in games like GT7 and Returnal it's a game changer. Then u got FF16 where I only noticed it in cutscenes when somebody gave a pat on Clive's shoulder lol.
@Matroska I didn't say they were the same as haptic feedback from a technology standpoint, how they achieve them isn't my point, rather how they all take ideas from one another and implement or improve upon them. Often these are invented outside of gaming and I think you're right in that the Steam controller was the first to use it. I do wish though that Sega's idea of using hall effect sensors would have caught on and save us from this stick drift that is all too common
@StylesT I've played quite a lot of games on PS5 and only remember Astro Bot making great use of it, oh and the triggers for GT7, outside of those I can't say I've noticed it or instead found the triggers to be annoying
The actual quote is
“Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”
― Oscar Wilde
Conveniently the second half is usually forgotten...
@__jamiie In the end it comes down to what games you play the most. Games like Sonic Origins and Blasphemous do not play that well with this circular off position dpad in the Series S controller. The controller is perfect in the other aspects though.
More on the topic, it may be an unpopular opinion but I would much rather have a 30 to 40 € simple controller with only rumble and a big battery, like some 8bitdo models, not 80+ € controllers of questionable durability with underutilized features. Since when buying a controller became such an investment?
Gyro and better rumble would be cool, but please do not copy the triggers, they are awful!
Glad to see the user-swappable battery feature is being retained. Sony could and should be doing the copying here.
Still not as good as the dualsense, but nice to see Sony being inspirational in the controller apsect of gaming.
I think the triggers are awful on the PlayStation controller, so I'm personally pleased to see that Xbox do not appear to be following that route. I always turn off the function where I can...
@LifeGirl and now there's recent rumours of Xbox copying PS to have their own version of a platinum trophy
@HwuaiLiang so what your saying is its OK for Sony to buy up studios but not anyone else including Microsoft. Where's the hate towards Tencent, Embracer & others eating up the industry.
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Just like ps5 pro controller borrowed from nintendo.
I applaud every gaming company to put gyro and hd rumble in every controller from now on. So that it becomes industry standard.
The only thing I am reading is “needlessly more expensive controllers”
@Matroska The Switch controllers definitely have haptic feedback. If you have Splatoon you can feel it as you swim on various surfaces.
Removed - flaming/arguing
I love how they claim next years new Series X cylinder design is “innovative” when it looks almost a carbon copy of the 2012 Mac Pro
@HwuaiLiang you did. As you said its OK for Sony as the companies made bangers for them before. Which means your OK with Sony acquisitions. Also from your latest comment it seem to include anyone who will still commit to being multiplatform gets your support. So it's just Microsoft then. I bet Tencent has a similar list of possible targets being the biggest investor of acquisitions around the globe before the ABK deal. Embracer has been closing studios, potentially selling studios & paying off large amounts of staff which means if there not profitable most will be closed, stripped or sold off for scrap. So there not safe either.
I understand though as if Sony bought Square Enix I'd have to buy a second PS5 for the house so I'd get to play more of those games. I Play Sony exclusives on my eldest sons PS5.
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as long as it doesn't copy the Dualsenses atrocious battery life
@4kgk2 not as if Sony is original these days. Sony copies Nintendo left and right and everywhere.
As someone above this post said, imitation is the best kind of flattery.
🤷♂️ A controller is just a controller to me. I don't even notice the haptics or the adaptive triggers.
Sure it was neat when I first tried it all out. Then it all just "blended into the background".
I just want Xbox controllers to be quieter.
Removed - flaming/arguing
Microsoft are going the ways of apple, holding the market with a tight grip whilst following trends and tech and then everyone believes that they have innovated (USB-C) but most of us here are not that dumb.
Nice, for me the dual sense features are great & they’d be great on games like forza, halo & gears.
@Fritz167 should check out demons souls, returnal, ratchet and clank, death stranding and control
@Kite87 have you played Astro's Playroom? I have played all those games and there is no possible comparison.
@HwuaiLiang You say it has no impact. But look at Insomniac. They made Fuse a multiplatform title, Sunset Overdrive an Xbox exclusive & several mobile, PC games before being acquired. Yes they made mostly fantastic PlayStation games but they had the option to make for others before being acquired. They lost that after. Sony buying a studio is no different than Microsoft as they buy mostly for exclusivity. Love it or hate it? That will never change.
Embracer is closing studios, culling jobs in a lot of there studios & potentially selling off studios like Gearbox Studios & you think that's better wow.
Problem is both Phil Spencer & Jim Ryan are both full of *****. It's business they will booth ***** to promote & protect there brand.
I'm sure in time Xbox will produce exclusives that may bring you back & to be fair you should hope for it as more competition keeps Sony on there toes as they seem to drop the ball when they feel less threatened.
You make it sound like none of Microsoft studios had any close ties to the company before being acquired. Bethesda made bangers for Microsoft. Elder Scroll: Morrowind still is a xbox console exclusive & Oblivion was a console exclusive to Xbox for 12 months. Bethesda games always ran better on Xbox than PlayStation. Double Fines original Psychonauts got funding from Microsoft before that deal fell through & 2 got funding for it to be finished. Playground games & Undead Labs both made games soley for Xbox before being acquired. Microsoft funded the 360 port of Minecraft before being acquired.
@get2sammyb Exactly, the best thing about this is that if those features become the standard across more platforms, more and more developers will build them natively in their games.
Removed - trolling/baiting
Xbox, innovating nothing this generation.
(and I am a PC guy)
Most of the mainstream media and gamers have a weird distaste for VR, but many of the PS5 innovations were clearly driven by PSVR2. Namely, haptic feedback and 3D audio, as they complement VR nicely by adding extra layers of immersion.
@Max_the_German They had Impulse Triggers which were kind of like that or exactly. So many people ignored the Xbox One they didn't even know the controller had this the whole generation.
So yes Xbox did do something to the controller other than 'its wireless like 360, batteries again and the design is different' under people's nose of gimmicky features people just barely noticed/focused on Kinect and the business model to notice.
The battery pack than batteries option was always there too then the 'well got to unscrew this to replace the battery so I don't have a controller that now only last an hour then needs a cable charge' like my Dualshock 4 right now.
Was great for shooters/racing games (not surprising as the console is known for those games).
I always keep it on love the feature to help with reloading/firing shots or braking.
I always wonder what games used the touchpad/gyro on a Dualshock 4. Early games like Killzone, Infamous, then late like Last of Us 2 and Ghost of Tsushima but the middle was what Gal Gun (gyro aim, touchpad boss battles), Nier Automata (2 halves of menus touchpad), Wonderful 101 Remastered (gyro in areas inside buildings and touchpad for the toggle of Wii U second screen view of inventory and other info), Gravity Rush 1 & 2 (gyro to aim character in the air), very particular titles of niche third parties (well Nier Automata/Wonderful101 aren't but still) and Gravity Rush being first party Japan studios like an Astro is.
London of course did their support to PSVR and I think did Playlink (smartphone supported games, aka what Everybody 1-2 Switch does now but back in 2014 with a bunch of games not 1 game, people remember EyeToy/Move but forget Playlink I find so I always bring it up) or that might have been Japan Studio I don't know but Singstar is there and I think Japan Studio was more so the PlayStation Camera Playroom minigames/Playroom VR minigames besides PlayStation VR Worlds.
@HwuaiLiang The problem I find is they buy them up but do we see innovation, no. Do we see better management no. They can buy talent/IPs but if the hardware/teams aren't making compelling games or their audience doesn't care why try.
Amazon/Google/Apple are competition to Microsoft but at the same time Amazon is doing some things, Google gave up. Apple is in their own way.
I don't think they actually care for the small money they earn but I could say so more than Sony where we see less smaller scale titles. But a fair amount of Indies.
But we still see VR for Indies (customers into different experiences) to make games as the big ones go to Occulus sadly due to userbase then wanting to build up a userbase (besides the hardware differences).
PSVR2 had minimal marketing and that's fair then over the top and wasting more money. They set expectations right I think there even if some stuff isn't compelling there but it's a niche product anyway so I don't think it's doing terrible even if PSVR1 had better support.
Sony studios I respect for their 3-5 years to get a game out and at least 1-3 games first party and third parties fill in the gap. They manage them well.
Microsoft says they will let devs do what they want but the projects are so disconnected from their shooter, racing and sports audience the console most has a reputation of.
They try other titles but if they understood their OG/360 days of what didn't work there is a reason why (while I don't care much for Sony first party anymore) with some titles why they sell, also why they put them into TV/movies and other options, same with Nintendo, Microsoft has but when is a Gears TV show and others? Sony know their audience/what their new audience is. Microsoft wants to broaden it but they haven't done the best job of that or struggle to do that.
They say 'Japan and family friendly games' but they do a bad job of that. Sure they can't OG/360 games support do that anymore but just third parties on the platform while is something some can't justify it regardless of the niche western audience support that buys them on Nintendo/Sony platforms.
Microsoft doesn't really care, throw it at the wall doesn't work anymore of 20 years ago. There is a reason I'll buy OG/360 games of the past but not Xbox One+ games because they aren't compelling.
@Cyrus29 I agree. Impulse Triggers (many people forget/don't know they even added them to the Xbox One controller, kind of like Playlink on PS4 (people talk about PSVR instead) I never hear people talk about those games good, bad, inbetween as much as I do EyeToy/Move on PS2/3) were nice on Forza Motorsport/Gears titles or some third parties but I can see gyro being good in others (not into it for Gran Turismo 5, 6, Sport and 7, 3D was nice in GT5 & 6 though).
But other games for sure can benefit from motion controls the way Nintendo, Sony or third parties that 'did' use them (more so niche titles I find on PS4 as the middle years were light on them from what I've uncovered, Gal Gun, Nier Automata, Wonderful101), there besides Gravity Rush 1 & 2 didn't really use the touchpad/gyro all that much).
@Fritz167 im severely bummed as well. That Astro game is STILL the only game really using haptics the way they should be used!
@SuntannedDuck2 All I wanted to say is: Nintendo had the first console with Rumble (N64) and HD Rumble (Switch), and BOTH PlayStation and Xbox copied it.
@__jamiie We (usually) have symmetrical arms, hands, fingers, eyes. Don't see any reason why we should be more comfortable on using them asymmetrically.
Gyro is the biggest addition here... Its been sorely mising and I bought an expensive Xim nexus to get gyro on xbox games.
Having it in a first party controller is clearly the best solution.
Having more control over vibration feedback will also be welcome as right now I simply have to turn it off on xbox titles. Even on PS5 I have the intesity turned right down in options, as its suppossed to subtle feedback, not something that shakes the rings off your fingers. Same with haptics. At full strength they are stupid and just tire your fingers. Set it to about 25% and it starts feeling much better.
Tbf, xbox said some time ago that dualsense features were very good and they would do it in future, so it would be nice to see it come to fruition.
Personally I rate the dualsense controller over all others, but Id be glad to see new ones elsewhere too.
@Fritz167 it reminds me of the Gamepad on the WiiU. It was really cool but not many games took advantage of it. Except maybe more games made use of the feature on that system than the features on the Dualsense….I love the controller but it’s a shame the functionality isn’t used much….
@cragis0001 Insomniac was a single studio but Zenimax is a massive publisher, also if embracer and Tencent were platform holders you'd have a point but anyone can still approach them to make a game for them.
Not surprised Phil has said a few times how impressed he was with the ps5 controller, personally the haptics annoy me and the battery life is awful
@sop It's more to do with the natural resting place of the left thumb. The left thumb naturally rests where the Xbox thumb stick is not where the PlayStation thumb stick is.
@Max_the_German In terms of those yes Rumble/Vibration they did do 'first'.
But if 2013 Impulse Triggers were first and are I think HD Rumble/kind of then by that no. By Haptics/HD Rumble (basically the same thing) and 2017/2020 difference of a console release then yes.
Nintendo does do things first but do they always no.
Nothing wrong with saying what your saying though.
PlayStation controllers have always been superior imo. The smaller version of the OG XBOX controllers were the best Microsoft controllers.
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