Everyone's Talking About Eve's Outfits in PS5 Exclusive Stellar Blade

Not everyone cause I'm definitely not 😂

Beautiful, nothing wrong with finally having a developer who appreciates (a) female form rather than trying to make every female sexless / masculine; and I’m so glad Sony are allowing it (at least in non Japanese games). It puts beauty front and centre in a way that makes the game appeal to me when, if Dante were the focal point as an example, it honestly wouldn’t.

Beautiful stuff. I'll be looking out for the inevitable article about snowflakes denouncing how this sets unrealistic body standards and sexualizes women.

Is this Kayne West’s doll?

Personally I think the design of the characters and the worlds look really cool. I applaude the devs for showing the main character is actually based on a real model thus disproving the claims that a real living person can not physically have these proportions. I also like the costumes and I don't understand why some elements of the tinternet are having a melt down about them. There will be a few show up in the comments section sooner than later.

@get2sammyb "If you wouldn't say it in real-life, please don't say it here on our site!" There have been many instances where you've removed my comments where it has been something I would say in real life so this statement by you is a bit odd to say the least. I agree with the rest of your comment 100% just not that bit.

Waiting for Digital Foundry's tech review where they don't talk about the graphics and tech, and focus on the "out dated" character models instead.

My characters run around naked in baldur’s gate and cyberpunk so these outfits seem a little prudish to me.

@get2sammyb fair enough 👌

I'll try to be as respectful as possible. This is definitely not for me. It's something that gives gamers a bad name. I don't mind it when it's a mod on PC that players make and others can download if they wish, but when developers go as far as to make it, I know to stay clear of that game.

(the 4 outfits look great. I'm specifically referring to the "outfit" from the video, or lack thereof)

This game really feels like a much needed breath of fresh air, looks excellent

Looks like gamers being gamers - if there’s a chance to have a scantily clad big-boobed lady then by George they will take it.
Still, we’ve not had a ‘Dead or Alive’ in years so we’re overdue something like this. But a bit cringey.

With this and FF7's bathsuit scene, I hope the devs get the message about their main audience : we like diverse games, sometimes we seek gritty realism, sometimes over the top sexyness.

@Hyena_socks there are plenty of games with ugly characters for people who prefer them. Games for everyone 😂

I'm no prude, but the objectification of the female form in a game that is not remotely about anything erotic, seems a throwback to less enlightened days.
Theres a time and place for overly sexual outfits, but I cant see that this game required it.

It certainly isnt the first to try and appeal to players in this way and Im sure it wont be the last.
Normally this blatent over sexualisation would ensure I wouldnt buy the game, but this game looks excellent in all other respects, and as I will have a choice of outfit, I wont need to play it in this way, so Im still excited. Just not THAT excited 😁

How do I feel about video games having these cosmetics/costumes?

Well, we see famous singers twerking in thongs in songs and it’s totally acceptable. We see celebrities posting semi-nude selfies on Instagram and it is celebrated and called “empowering”. But developers make a woman that is attractive to the majority of gamers and suddenly it is grotesque and gives gamers a bad name.

Is it needed in this game? No.

It is acceptable? Yes.

Should it happen more? Absolutely!

Why? Because no one should ever stifle the creativity of developers to simply satisfy the whims and feelings of the minority. The majority of men like seeing the female form. The majority of people who aren’t so keen will accept it or avoid it without drama.

The few who actually have a problem with this will make a big deal out of it and ruin it for the rest of us because some feel they have a right to control everything people make and enjoy. And that’s not right.

Let developers make games according to their creative vision. Let gamers enjoy games regardless of what they like that you may not like. And everyone just calm down.

After all, just a bit of attractive looking pixels that don’t hurt anyone.

Im all for it and a breath of fresh air from a lot of the devs being afraid to add in outfits like this and a beautiful lady on top of that. Day one purchase from me for sure

The outfits look alright and it's nice that there's 30+ of them to choose from - most games today either don't bother all that much with cosmetic clothes, or nickle and dime you for them.

I'd be interested in seeing the hair customization options in detail as well (some of which showed up in the trailers) because I'm not super fond of Eve's default ponytail look.

Does it really matter that much?

It’s an outfit, on some pixels on a screen. Some people will like it, some won’t, many won’t care that much.

Surely it’s more about if the game is good?

@Gaia093 Yeah that was one thing I wasn't quite a fan of either and especially with the hair kind of clipping through everything. I just want it a bit shortened though.

She looks gourgeous no question about it. But you can barely call it a outfit no issues with it here though. In the end its up to the developers what they want to make it's not like they have to make it like everyone wants it to be that would be quite boring.

There's a reason it's rated 18 so I don't see the problem at all, and let's not pretend Bayonetta doesn't exist with her revealing outfits and provocative poses so this isn't exactly anything new.

Plus we all know Sex appeal works wonders, it will help sell games and is great for marketing as we have also recently seen with the FF7 ReBirth Bikini Scene. It's not just the video game industry that uses Sex appeal to sell, we see it in music videos and movies a lot as well, so it being used in gaming should not be a problem at all.

I do find the hypocrisy of society amusing when it comes to things like this.
All the hand wringing over whether it's mysoginistic or art, a game or real life and how it affects the visualisation of women.

Every single teenager has a little window in their pocket to any kind of pornography they can think of, including all sorts of violent, debasing and nasty kinds of sexual content as well as general porn which gives these kids artificial ideas of love and sex.
That's one of the problems in the world right now, and no one seems to acknowledge it (very rarely anyway).

The outfits in the screenshots all look great, the video almost looks like what'd happen if you unequipped her costume, rather than a costume itself.

I look forward to seeing what other costumes we can collect.

I mean... I just don't get it. If you want to be titilated, just watch porn. I don't really want to play a game that I'll be embarrassed to be caught playing

@get2sammyb Respectful? Have you seen how toxic the comments on this site have started get lol? When I come tomorrow I expect 15% of the comments to be removed.

That being said it is fun to see some silly looking costumes which remind me of the ps3 era with lollypop chainsaw and stuff.

@thefourfoldroot1 can not agree more.

Did cyberpunk or baldurs gate get this type of publicity , there's Willie's and breasticles all over the shop in those games.

As a woman, I never understood why some of the women I have played video games with hated women characters that looked sexy or didn’t have “conservative” outfits but yet loved muscular men in barely covered outfits and fetishizing them with other male characters. I always found it a bit hypocritical.

It never bothered me and I remember one of my favorite characters growing up was Ivy from Soul Calibur 2. Sometimes I like sexy girls like I enjoy sexy men lol.

@Kienda absolutely right , if Sam Smith wore that costume he'd be stunning and brave.

I think bodybuilders should put on some goddamn clothes at the next Mr Olympia

@PapaGlitch
I’m not sure why a beautiful woman would embarrass you, but I’m a little tired by the lazy argument of “just watch porn”. If someone wants a good story in a videogame do you say “but why not just read a great book, there is generally more depth to the narrative and characterisations”? Good game music, do you say “but why not go to a concert”? If somebody loves a beautiful aesthetic, would you say look at paintings of landscapes, or porn of beautiful women? Apart from porn being a completely different medium with a different purpose, why does it even make sense? Do you see how lazy of an argument it is? Generally this argument is put forward by two types of person - those who have been taught a moral position that the sexualisation of a human (esp. woman) is always wrong, and people (usually younger people) who are embarrassed by the human form.

Am I the only one that thinks the first suit in the article is a Ghost in the Shell reference?

Anyway I really can't wait to play it the game looks awesome!

@PapaGlitch my thoughts exactly

@Summer235 I think part of the problem was that the armour for female characters has always been ridiculous as opposed to male characters that made more sense.

@naruball Yea, I can see that. Unfortunately I’m not knowledgeable enough on the topic of armor to give a well informed opinion on that, but I can understand where that comes from.

I just don’t agree with the opinion that female characters need to be covered at all times and/or have no big breasts/curves versus it’s okay to have an unrealistically muscled male character be half naked.

Can you imagine a great character action game without a badass & sexy protagonist both male or female ? Me neither.

It’s fine! Especially because there are so many other choices — including different in-game costumes as well as other games. It’s not 1998 anymore where the only female protagonist games are either pink Barbie or sexed up Lara Croft. And that was the exact point I took away from Tropes vs Women in Gaming was making 10 years ago — diversity and representation matters. It doesn’t mean you can’t have a sexed up action game or that that form is bad, it just shouldn’t be the only option.

I’m not even into women and I don’t see the problem here. It’s an 18 rated game with a sexy character. Devs are allowed to make whoever they want, players are allowed to buy whatever they want. It’s aimed at consenting adults who are allowed to make their own choices. Let them.
I’m looking forward to reaching the light at the end of these puritanical times we’re in at the moment.

I mean, if they have the options for more normal outfits and more crazy outfits, then no one can complain, can they? You just pick what you want to see in your own game and there is literally no way to get offended on either side.

@Northern_munkey in baldurs gate they can make a whole article about bumping a bear.
or ganondorf.
a woman in 20% clothing mostly is not allowed.

That outfit in the video, is that body paint? Doesn't look like clothes to me.

It's tricky to criticise this sort of thing these days without being made to look like you're offended by it. I'm absolutely fine with this existing, I just think it's sh*te

Can we have another video, a bit more zoomed in and a bit longer. Just in case we missed something. Many thanks in advance.

This seems to be an accurate description of this game to most red-blooded males, to quote get2sammyb "A tentpole title", I'll say no more 😉.

@Sanquine afraid not...its a thing.

Haha, honestly, it's just a videogame! It's all good! The developers can do whatever they like, and if it sells well, then it's great for them. I know I'll be buying.

I don't know how tf the devs got away with that outfit shown in the video, but I'm happy they did. I'll use that one, along with plenty of others, including the more covered-up ones, just like I mix it up in the Bayonetta games and for the male and female characters in Street Fighter and Tekken.

At the end of the day, though, it's all going to be about how this game plays. That demo needs to be real. It's a risk, obviously sales will be putrid for sure if a demo is not well received but if the demo proves the gameplay is good, well, you may get some unexpected positive gains

At the end of the day it's just art and art is subjective. It's not real and nobody is forcing you to like it or buy it. Hypocrites who didn't take issue with BG3 but have an issue with this though will always be hilarious to me.

.

@CutchuSlow Yeah it's a skin coloured bodysuit she's wearing.

Thats some really cool outfits.lots of packages she got.haha.word up son

@Summer235 absolutely. As always, the truth, or perhaps the best in this case would be somewhere between the two extremes.

You probably get put on some kind of list if you select these types of outfits in games.

@Dadou Plenty, actually.

@Enigk
I'll risk it.

I don't really mind the game or it's outfits. I like a sexy, virtual woman as much as the next nerd. Though that first outfit is over the top and I would never use it, just like I would never use Bayonetta's fetish costumes. But I don't care that they exist.

What does kinda bother me is how defensive people get over this stuff. Always trying to make it sound like a perverted character design is more realistic, or somehow on a moral high ground. It's objectifying sex appeal for the sake of attention; there's nothing honorable about it. Even on this site, the amount of people saying 'there's nothing wrong with a woman being beautiful.' Let's get one thing straight, this isn't a beautiful woman. This is a fake character with no agency made up to stimulate male (and lesbian) fantasies as a selling point. Don't try to position this as defending a woman's right to be attractive; that's not at all what this is.

And, for the love of God, don't talk about unattractive-in-your-eyes female character designs like it's some plague. Woman are not required to be sexy, and the same goes for fictional women. Most characters people cite for this stuff are typically attractive anyway, they just aren't actively feminine. Which, if you ridicule as 'ugly,' that's a whole other problem in itself.

Really interested to see how this turns out. My gut instinct tells me that all this sexy costume business has been added to distract players and compensate for poor gameplay, but I could be dead wrong and the game may turn out to be an absolute blast. We shall see!

Isnt this considered porn lol

In the same way we don't treat people that like violent video games like murderers, we need to stop treating people that like a bit of sexiness in games as perverts.

I mean it’s fine, there have been plenty of games that have come out with sexy girl outfits though. I find it an incredibly boring hand to play. There are more exciting character designs than “Korean K-pop supermodel”. This coupled with the fact that the game doesn’t appear to much of a sense of humor, kind of puts it in the aesthetically bland category for me.

I personally don’t see the big deal, and I’m as left leaning as they come. There is room in gaming for all types of character designs. I’ve been gaming since the 1980s and have had just as much fun with over the top Japanese games as I have with games such as Last of Us 2. The complaining about this character and game is just as irritating as the ridiculous “anti-woke” people complaining about Horizon, Last of Us 2 and Spider Man 2

@B0udoir
There's a whole game underneath it too.

@Hyena_socks With how Dead or alive 6 failed we will never see 7.

The hilarity and obnoxiousness of the people how are only excited for this because the girl is half naked, outpaces the obnoxiousness of people who want the woman to be covered up.

It also strikes me as odd that the people I know who argue against things like racial minorities in medieval-themed fantasy games due to lack of “realness”, are also the ones who are going crazy over seeing a woman sword fight while wearing nothing but a rubber band a piece of yarn. 🤷🏾‍♂️

@Optimus I agree. But let’s be honest here, the complaining about this game is far less “noisy” than folks who called for boycotts of games like TLOU2 and Spidey 2.

@RoomWithaMoose I find it strange that you think the people who are fine with stuff like this are the ones trying to take the moral high ground.

I mean how deluded does someone need to be to assume that's what is happening?

The wasteland adventurer outfit is cute. Would love to see at least a few outfits that are fun as well. I want to slice up baddies while Eve is dressed up in a banana suit.

@B0udoir Yeah you're obviously a highbrow person so let's discredit other people's tastes shall we? Have you ever heard the saying one person's trash is another person's treasure? Or how about beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Obviously this isn't in the same league as the masterpiece you're describing but does it really need to be? If people enjoy it then just let them enjoy it.

@MrMagic There's evidence of this in this very comment section. Not the mention the repetitive 'wokeness hates women' discourse surrounding Eve and alike character designs.

There were actual arguments against Princess Peach wearing pants and being too competent in the Super Mario Bros. movie. I wish I was just delusional.

EDIT: Also, I clearly said I'm fine with it. So what are you even talking about. There's a difference between being fine with it and defending it like non-sexy, female characters are some kinda affront.

@Ralizah
I'd like some sports gear. Doubt it happens but a basketball jersey, shorts and a baseball cap is a style I like to use for my created characters whenever I'm given that chance.

@Gamer83 It'd also be cool if there were some collab/crossover outfits. Tifa, 2B, etc.

@Ralizah The question is, peeled or unpeeled? Personally, I like my bananas sexy 😂

Love that idea. Tifa and 2B would be perfect. Trish and Lady aren't bad choices either.

That first video is actually misleading as I understand it. Thats the in-universe equivalent of being naked. She doesn’t actually put on clothes, she has a skinsuit that replicates looks and that’s the default skinsuit look I.e. not wearing an outfit.I believe you even disable some of your combat capability using that “outfit”.

So it’s somewhat similar to going naked in Cyberpunk with your willy dangling around and then going “look at the outfits you’re able to wear in this game!!”

The difference between this and what others are referring to, such as when women are dressed in revealing outfits at movie premieres, is that women had a say in what they were dressed as on those occasions. Considering this developer sacked two women because they identify as feminists and is peddling the sexiness of its character, who is modelled on a REAL WOMAN, it just feels incredibly poor taste. Korea is one of the most sexist societies on the planet, especially in the workforce where 80% of women report sexual harassment. 75% of Korean men openly oppose gender equality, so those attitudes are reinforced by the way this game is relying on these elements to sell, when it would probably stand on its own two feet regardless. It isn’t fanservice because nobody’s a fan of these characters yet, it’s just the easiest trick in the book which will have the very worst of gamers out to defend it despite the fact 50 million hentai mahjong games come out every week with no problems so clearly nobody’s out to ban this.

@Northern_munkey The cleansing has begun 🥲🤣

I don’t understand pushsquare and it’s community. Bulders gate 3 gets a free pass but this is sexist. Also it’s the usual suspects talking about sexism (see comments about Korea).

It really says a lot about you when you get excited over a revealing outfit in a VG. My opinion on this? Don't care either way its the gameplay that matters to me.

I'm steering clear of this one. To the people that compare this situation to Cyberpunk and Baldur's Gate - a big difference is that CDPR and Larian didn't push the sexual content in those games as if it's what they were most excited to bring, where as the Stellar Blade devs push these outfits ahead of any other aspect of the game. The dev interviews I've seen, they come across like horny teenagers trying to create their perfect girlfriend in a videogame, but were told they had to do something else with the game as well.

Let's respect the developers creative choice. I strongly dislike TLOU2 but I totally respect the creative choice that Neil Druckman took with excessive violence. The way he and his team choose to portray women is just a different way to the Stellar Blade director. Neither are wrong and both are valid.

I always like it when games offer outfit customization, it makes a player's playthrough feel unique for them.

@RoomWithaMoose You mean like the evidence in this comment section of people trying to occupy the moral high ground? I guess it goes both ways. Both sides seem to be taking issue over the most stupid and inconsequential things but personally I've only seen one side ridiculing the other and calling them childish while trying to act all high and mighty and superior.

@DennisReynolds
There’s no point discussing what is beautiful to me as that’s subjective. Within the societies from which most readers of this site derive, yes, there is a culturally accepted type of feminine beauty (as well as a more universal type derived from manifestations of health and fertility), and yes, this type of character is more in accordance with those standards. Thats not to say any other standards you may hold are any less valid, which is why I said “(a) female form”; so let’s not start insulting people in a comment thread that has been generally very reasoned.

And no, I didn’t say I was only interested in the game for that reason. I said I’m more interested in it as the character is visually appealing to me in a way that Dante, to pull an example from a similar game, was not (and by the way, if you think he wasn’t hyper-sexualised then I would question that).

@Mortal Yeah, the bear sexy time was totally not sexual… I’m not interested in the game but everyone on here being pissed about revealing outfits need to touch grass

@Mortal - The dev interviews I've seen, they come across like horny teenagers trying to create their perfect girlfriend in a videogame.

Yeah let's tell artists they cannot paint anything they find beautiful or attractive shall we?

They're some superb outfits. The character designers have done a great job.

@thefourfoldroot1 "Within the societies from which most readers of this site derive, yes, there is a culturally accepted type of feminine beauty (as well as a more universal type derived from manifestations of health and fertility), and yes, this type of character is more in accordance with those standards"

That's because gaming has largely been male made and has aimed its female characters at young males. The Devs behind this game is heavily male driven and have been accused of sexism and treating its female staff poorly so that's why the game is putting focus on tits and ass as its made by a bunch of incels it seems. The game looks fantastic don't get me wrong but the marketing focus on sex and nudity over the actual gameplay is kinda cringe, its starting to feel like the game is being designed for a 13 year old boy rather then adults it will be rated for.

I don’t even understand the controversy here. In the real world, Eve will grow old, her cleavage will wage war with her navel and her joints will lock up tighter than an alligator’s jaw from the years of kicking butt. She’ll be sadly chewed up and spit out like every other objectified person valued only for their looks.

But this isn’t the real world, it’s a fictional sci/fi fantasy video game. Call her design what it is: objectification for the purpose of titillation targeted at a specific audience. If you’re that target market, own it. Enjoy it. Revel in it. This was made for you. There’s no need to justify your position with broader philosophical, sociopolitical and moral arguments. I don’t see it doing your position any favours.

If you’re not that target market, change the channel. Just my half baked two cents.

@Sanquine my point was that Larian didn't push that content to the front of all of their media. It exists. It is there. It was not made to be the focus of the game.

I don't think anyone is "pissed" about the decision to focus so much on the outfits. From what I've read, people are simply stating that the game isn't for them due to how the game is focusing on the sexualization of the protagonist, rather than what a game actually needs to be good, like well written characters, or a unique game mechanics etc.

@DennisReynolds
Most people outgrow those feelings by middle age; you realise there is nothing juvenile about liking an attractive female form, despite the fact it is an interest that starts in adolescence. There is nothing embarrassing about it.

Yes, as you say, the marketing for gaming has previously been targeted at young men. But if you think older men and many, many, many women do not appreciate the female form also, then you’ve been listening to the wrong talking heads.

I would also not tarnish everyone with a label of “incel” just because they might appreciate a nice female form. That seems rather, well, juvenile.

@Sanquine it's usually the same suspects that want diversity,equality and inclusiveness as well 🤣

@IndoorEnthusiast looool. My V was almost naked all the time.

I collected all the suits in Spider-man. But I must admit I'm even more motivated to collect all in Stellar Blade.

@Jimmer-jammer Half-peeled.

You get to see some of the soft fruit underneath, but you still leave some to the imagination!

@naruball I can run around completely naked with genitals out with my character and all companions in Baldur's Gate 3- would they turn you off from the game? Do you feel like there's something wrong with those devs?

I can't think of a single game that sexualized a male character in the same way with outfits. Criticism of the treatment of female characters is legit, and yes this kind of thing is harmful to women. It's fine if you don't care because you personally like it, but just admit it up front instead of rationalizing it.

@thefourfoldroot1 the view I have of the artists (yes artists) that have designed these characters and outfits etc is the same view I hold artists such as Boris Vallejo in. I see these as the Korean equvilant. Do the people that find these outfits indecent and deliberately provocative hold the covers of the conan the barbarian movie or the album covers of bands such as manowar etc with the same level of vitriol they display here? Probably not because as you yourself have said already there are different cultures and the Eastern and western cultures have very different ways in which they express their artistic representation of the female and male physiology. I guess some people's psychological makeup is just not equipped to deal with this style of artistic representation.

@Mortal
Larian might not have pushed it but I remember plenty of articles going "omg you get to bed a bear! Wow!!!" Meanwhile all these devs have done is give the girl some revealing outfits. These screenshots are not theirs and whenever they show off gameplay trailers the focus is decidedly on the action and combat. It's always the people looking in that wind up being the ones that oversexualize everything.

@MrMagic I'm sorry, I really don't think you're comprehending what I'm saying. Eve can be sexy — I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is being ardently defending Eve being sexy for weird reasons.

I'm not trying to disparage people liking eye candy. I just think there's a lot of nonsensical defenses and expectations regarding sex appeal.

@Zenos This is the kinda overly defensive, nonsensical comment I'm talking about.

If you think all fictional women need to be sexy, you have a problem.

@Icey664 Personally I'm more interested in articles that review the game based on its merits, not relying on sex appeal exclusively to build hype. The game may end up being mediocre, which should be any gamers primary concern. If one wants T&A, there's a very inviting ocean of porn online for that, which I have no issues with. 😉

The costumes are cool with me, and I like the fact you can unlock most of them without DLC. At the end of the day it all comes to gameplay, which I’m sure this game will be great.

@Summer235 I guess it's just because the history of gaming has always been male dominated that now any kind of sexualized content for women is taboo.

So, in order to prevent against the Twitter mob (are they the X-mob now?!), developers now over-compensate and make women as plain as possible (especially western developers).

For all we know, these outfits were designed by women because they wanted sexy fantastical outfits just like men come up with the muscular fantastical versions of men all the time. In fact, there have been a few times where this kind of thing was scrutinized only for a woman to come out and say "actually, I designed the costumes" and the issue died.

I bet if this game was developed entirely by women, the industry would call it "fierce", "bold", or "empowering" because it was developed by all women.

I bet if the same group of all women made a game with big muscular sexy guys, it would still be seen as woman "taking on" the gaming industry the way males have been doing to women for decades. So even that would be praised.

FYI: I'm not mocking all female developers, just simply pointing out how social media and the press would perceive their work.

The second a man is enters into the scenario I bet it would be seen as misogyny because now he is pushing his fantasies of women.

I feel like it's basically telling people that woman are the only ones allowed to fantasize because men have taken it too far.

Kind of sad as there is room for sexualization and non-sexualization of characters no matter who makes it.

I'm not one of those who changes outfits or cares about any cosmetics in game. I go with whatever the main uses and leave it at that. I personally don't care what costumes are available.

@zhoont I haven't played the game yet, so I can't properly comment on it. My understanding is that it offers an insane number of options, including what you just mentioned. Even the bear scene seemed more funny than sexual to me, but perhaps there was more to it, because I never played it. But that's the impression I got.

There is a difference between making a game with a wealth of options and a game where your selling point is the exaggerated sex appeal of the main character. It's why I skip most games/movies with a male character (whom I find attractive) when the cover is him half naked focusing on his abs or something. I don't mind nudity or anything; I just want it to make sense in the game and to not overfocus on it unless that's the concept of the game (e.g. 7 sins, if anyone's played it)

@thefourfoldroot1 I didn't you call you an incel i called the devs that because as i said they have been heavily accused of sexism and treating its female staff very poorly.

Honestly i don't care either way about revealing outfits in games, if they're there cool and if they aren't cool it doesn't matter as i don't turn to VG to get off. I'm 31 now and i tend to find personality trumps looks, looks do matter of course and its why Tifa in FF7R is always on my team as i fancy her over say Barrett but giving a choice over Abby from TLoUP2 and Aloy or the anime doll from Stellar Blade i prefer Abby and Aloy as nowadays i prefer someone with an actual personality and who looks realistic over a fantasy anime doll. I think the fact that Western devs heavily use facial capture now for characters meaning the faces are real faces shows how little gamers see of real women and its why they hate Aloy and Abby as they look like real women and not unrealistic fantastic object that a lot of eastern devs prefer, that last point isn't really aimed at you before you take offence but a more a generalisation of a certain gamer crowd.

I'm not offended by Stellar Blade as i don't care at all how sexualized it is but i do find it interesting how defensive some people are getting over it because seeing a 3D anime girl naked matters that much to them.

I don’t find this offensive at all, a little bit over the top but it’s not like she is cooking dinner and cleaning for the MC - also we can all have some fun and I am the first one to get a little bit distracted by Ryu’s sweaty winning pose when I play SF6

@Zenos Why are people assuming my position on everything? Guess what? I have Stellar Blade wish listed. And double guess what? It's half because of a$$.

I'm calling you defensive because you feel any need to justify your perversion. I don't. And I can think critically about sex appeal and the response to it regardless of how 'into' something I am.

And I called your comment nonsensical because I can think of relentless examples of successful media without sex appeal. Marvel's Spider-Man 2 was lambasted for it's "ugly" Mary Jane. Still sold incredibly well.

I don't know why you people think you're fighting the good fight in some war, but you're not.

@DennisReynolds
You kind of went off on a tangent there. I know you didn’t call me an incel, you were very clear you were talking about the devs, which I thought was a bit childish of you given you don’t know them and are making an assumption.

Also, you know these fictional characters don’t have personalities right? lol

I don’t really have any preferences when it comes to fictional women. Apart from a preferred body shape from a visual perspective. So can’t comment on any of your favourites I’m afraid.

I would say though that, if you think western games characters look more like the models they are based on than do eastern ones, you need to take a much closer look. They are definitely de-feminised in the west whereas they are left totally unmolested in the east.

I'm happy for the people who like fan service, but some of these outfits being this revealing sure do make me uncomfortable to talk about or recommend this game to friends. I'm really hoping that amongst the 30 outfits is some solid full body sci-fi armor, but the default outfit seems fine enough if not.

@Zenos Then why are you setting sides and drawing lines in the sand? Why does it matter so much to you if people are offended by Eve's? Why are you trying to make a point that sex appeal is financially viable? Why did my original comment, in which I explicitly condoned what I see as inane arguments for sexy females in fiction, bother you? Why haven't you specified that you DON'T think all fictional women have to be sexy?

If you just think Eve can be sexy if the designers want, say that. I don't at all disagree with that. If you are bothered by people offended by her design, don't lump anyone who can sympathize with that stance as an anti-sex prude.

@Zenos You responded to my comment that fictional women shouldn't all be sexy by saying sex sells and recent trends prove it.

I think it's fair to say I've made baseless assumptions, but my responses still apply to that tangent and you've done nothing to disprove my assumptions besides say they're wrong and double down on the views I imposed upon you.

@Zenos Then what are you saying?

Just that sex sells?

It sure does.

@DennisReynolds
I just find it hilarious you are judging a game before it has even come out. Are we just assuming that because the character is attractive, she won't have an interesting personality? How can people have opinions like this when the game isn't even out yet and we know next to nothing about the story? You're literally judging a book by it's cover my dude.

@Zenos The perceived issue is what you responded to. A criticism of people calling for more sexy women does not really need to be replied to with 'sex sells.' And it implies you think — generally, at least — that women should be displayed as sex objects more often than not.

If you don't believe that, cool — my bad. But then why was that your response?

I am buying this Day one or even thinking of pre-order it now

@thefourfoldroot1 They aren't de-feminised they just don't have the airbrush applied to them and look more like the face models when they don't have make up and airbrushing applied to them. Abby's face model looks slightly different because one Abby's face has to account for her body and two Abby's face model doesn't live in a hell hole world where everyday is fighting to survive. Eastern devs do change things they just "enhance" things and made them more anime pretty like, basically they take a gorgeous model and make her unrealistic in looks like with this game, i mean look at Tifa she's stunning but she's pure fantasy.

@Zenos That not all female designs should be sexy. And that people that argue they should might have a problem. I feel like I have to sum up everything that's already been stated, because you're still pulling random arguments out of the ether.

Concise-ish quick fire!
Even though it's not directed at me (then why'd you ask me...?): are attractive women suddenly reduced to objects? To some people, yes. That's what objectification is, and that's why it can be seen as problematic in media.

Where am I coming from? I am not ashamed of being attracted to fictional characters. That does not mean I think they should or have to be attractive. And I think it's weird people argue that exact thing.

Is it problematic to have a man design a character that appeals to their desires. A little... I wouldn't say it is, but I definitely see where critics are coming from. It's like a white man designing a stereotype of another race: not inherently wrong, but questionable.

Does agency matter? When people are using Beyonce's dress choices to justify a scantily clad fictional character that has no say in what they wear, yes. Actually women have the right to represent themselves however they want. Fictional women are products of the society that birthed them, and can denote concerning trends. It's a very different thing, is all.

That wasn't concise at all...

After all the western AAA slop we got, I welcome this change. Goodbye western slop, hello japanese and korea gaming

Edit: Hey, the sound is low but the music in the first twit is really good, it's giving me nier automata vibe.

@ATaco If she has an interesting personality why have the Devs shown none of it off and only care for looks? Nier Automata also had a anime doll like character but 2B's personality and character was still a big focus in marketing. I know barely anything about SB's lead because all the Devs care about is boasting about her ass and tits. I knew more about Bayonetta from her first trailer then i do this character.

@Zenos I didn't say all eastern devs i said most. Capcom haven't really been sexualizing their characters in recent times and in fact RE4R toned down Ashley compared to the original.

@Zenos Its as realistic as Joel coming back to full health in the first game from one dosage of meds despite being on deaths door moments prior. In fact Abby's body is way more realistic then Joel's instant full recovery.

Abby doesn't wear make up because it wouldn't make sense within the context of the world she's in plus do you really think Abby is a girl who would wear make up? I mean come on do any of the women in The Walking Dead wear make up? No because there's more important things to worry about then looking pretty.

@DennisReynolds
I really don't think we saw the same gameplay trailers if you left them with that impression. It seems as though you've already made up your mind though.

@Zenos I mean, characters like Eve 'can' have real world harm. But, honestly, the gravity of it can often be overblown.

I think what's important is to have a mix of all types of characters. If EVERY female character looked like Eve, that's a problem. That Eve exists at all is not a problem.

The video game industry has a history of being male dominated and over-sexualizing women and being uninviting to women developers and players. I hope we don’t have to argue this point. Is it as bad now? No. Has the issue been resolved? You would think that in an industry that has had this historical problem that the logical answer would be: there’s a good chance it’s still a problem. Let’s at least keep an eye on it.

Singular examples of hyper-sexualization were never the problem. Stellar Blade’s sexualization wouldn’t be the problem either. Sex sells. People like it, and there’s a place for it in all media types. The problem is domineering trends toward hyper-sexualization and how that contributes to the unwelcoming history that gaming has had toward women and how that has historically contributed to unhealthy body standards for women in combination with other media types. As well as unhealthy expectations that men have toward women.

It is impossible to fully police this though, and that really shouldn’t be the goal. The goal should be open dialogue about the composition of the industry and its larger effect on the community. Raising concerns. Listening with an open ear and airing it out.

When people openly object to raising of concerns and wave it off as some woke propaganda, pearl clutching, prudish Karensplaining—they are shutting down honest inquiry and warranted concern for the known historical facts about the gaming industry.

If their appears to be an ongoing sentiment that hypersexualization of the feminine form isn’t something to be at least concerned about and that all that matters is our own individualized lust for huge titties—then it would seem self evident that it’s still a problem to some extent. If there’s a significant sentiment that depicting other more realistic body types is worthy of insult then we have a problem.

This really comes down to the health of the industry. A healthy industry would be one where everyone is welcome and there is a plethora of choice that fills a variety of needs/desires. A industry that veers toward exclusion by way of catering moreso to one demographic (i.e. hypersexualized feminine forms for men) should be scrutinized.

@DennisReynolds
Except we’ve seen the model for this game. They haven’t done as you claim. We’ll leave it there. You can hypothesise and justify all you want by saying things like western devs “have to make this character or that character look like she’s from a post apocalyptic world” etc, but we know these are just excuses when you look at all the levels of disbelief they are happy for us to suspend in other areas.

@kcarnes9051
That is all perfectly reasoned and I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment.

But, when looked at objectively, we see there is no longer a prevalence of (over?)sexualisation. In fact we have regressed far in the opposite direction to a point where, at least with women, having any type of sexualised character suddenly becomes a big talking point - something out of the ordinary - that seems to demand many write ups and lots of hand-ringing; perhaps getting multiple more times the comments that most gaming pieces will get on the very same site.

I’m at the point where I’m still absolutely shocked Sony has even allowed it on their platform! Post 2018 I thought we’d lost this forever.

I think the base design one looks better than any of the alt outfits. Best haircut.

@thefourfoldroot1 the costumes in this game are getting more coverage than eve is getting in that video that was linked to at the start of the article which was an inspired video for pushsquare to use and then expect the comments to be "respectful." I've watched a few videos on YouTube from the demo that was accidentally released and it looks really good and yes it's obviously a bit on the exploitative side but is it any worse than say mila jovovich's costume in the fifth element etc,etc? If people don't like this games art direction then why are they even bothering to follow it? Why not just ignore it and find something more in line with their values and just leave those who find this acceptable to enjoy their pseudo semi erotic Sci fi game in peace?

@Northern_munkey
Live and let live you mean? lol. Good luck with that. How can people feel superior and make a positive impact on the world if everyone’s opinion needs to be respected?

@thefourfoldroot1 The problem is more complex than you’re giving credit, and it’s eluded to in my comment. When you have a significant outcry over realistic depictions of women or minority depictions that clash with the hypersexualized norm of old, then the problem is still very real. That outcry represents a push toward the old paradigm of exclusion and the male dominant viewpoint.

@kcarnes9051
I can see we are coming at this with very different presumptions. It’s pointless me trying to convince you of my position, nor indeed even presume that my (admittedly well researched) position is correct. But I will say this, be careful when judging anything online a “significant outcry”. On both sides there are, for want of a better term, activists, who make their certain position seem very loud and better supported than is the case.

Also be careful when considering a certain view “male”. In so doing you are both negating the female influence over creating and perpetuating said view, as well as removing their chance to be represented by it irrespective of gender, sex, or sexuality.

@thefourfoldroot1 What does well researched mean here? Like, are we talking academic research of the gaming industry with tables and charts with quantifiable metrics? Or anecdotal research? I ask both facetiously and honestly. Because if true, I'd be interested to see the distribution of overt sexualization over the years in a well research manner.

I am in no way shape or form arguing against our shared assumption that depictions in gaming is fairly balanced now.

I would argue that that has only happened in the last decade, and a decade is not enough time to wash away engrained programming that socially tilts scales in certain directions and that that comes out in social media.

And I would equally caution against dismissing the opinions of fringe social media communities as largely irrelevant, as you seem to be doing, as they can signal a larger gradient of beliefs deeply rooted in the social psyche.

I would also argue that while now, yes, men are depicted sexually in a fairly equal manner to women, the male body as depicted as muscular makes sense for the level of athleticism required in the roles they fill.

While the female body as generally depicted currently tends to be more clothed now, their physiques, while toned down sexually, are still pretty much waffer thin with little muscle on them, which doesn't quite so much make sense for combat roles they often fill.

Of course, these games are fantasy and cater to wish fulfillment, so artistically people can do as they please.

The inherent problem though here with the current paradigm, is that a bulky body for a man will always make sense for a combat role, and while it could be scrutinized for sexuality, it has the excuse for being realistic. A wafer thin female body, with skinny arms and huge tits makes less sense for combat.

So a wafer thin female body, even if prudishly clothed, automatically has a larger disconnect from reality.

I would argue if you were to look at people in the military, actual people in actual combat roles, that men in the military look more like their video game counterparts than women do.

That's not to say that women, or men for that matter, in video games need to look like people in the military.

But this introduces discordance in evaluating each side for oversexualization with the same standards.

And in the case of women, this is partly why the depiction of the feminine form attracts greater scrutiny, as their depiction largely gets stretched farther outside the realm of reality than men, even when the sexuality is toned down.

In any case, I view societal norms as a pendulum swinging. When they change, the pendulum does what a pendulum does and over corrects past the equilibrium point. Criticizing the overcorrection is criticizing the solution to the problem, given that the overcorrection is largely unavoidable and necessary.

In other words, we'll get the sexy characters back, as very much appears to be the case.

Lastly, I'm very much aware that some women are also drawn to overly sexualized women in games. It's all on a spectrum.

I'm not going to get into another argument about this game.

In my opinion, it looks like a fairly standard hack n slash game dressed up to appeal to people who find shiny polygons a turn on.

But that's just my opinion.

@kcarnes9051
Ahh, the pendulum. You are, of course, correct about the over correction. But I haven’t given up so much as to consider it inevitable. One day, hopefully, we will be evolved enough to act in a logical fashion not only as individuals, but also en masse. Perhaps. You see, it isn’t that these things indicate some type of deeper mass knowledge or sentiment, it’s just that most people are followers (a much more efficient use of energy) and so activists can have an huge impact after a point, even if they initially only represent an extreme minority view.

Of course, if we are to push the analogy, the pendulum still requires a competing force to gradually slow the (over)correction, so your blasé attitude is not really what is needed if you truly believe the correction to have gone too far.

I can’t remember the myriad sources of research I read over the years by the way, which I realise isn’t helpful, and lends me no credibility. But so it is with most of what humans (think they) know.

I really don’t think it helpful to get into whether a female character should have more muscle, shorter hair, wear trousers etc, in order to be more realistic within what are completely unrealistic worlds, usually with magical forces and the like. When someone tries to make such claims it comes off as tired excuses for the most part. As you say, these are power fantasies,

They are made by both men and women however (which is why I had a bit of an issue with your male gaze argument), and most women I know confirm to western ideals of feminine beauty which means their power fantasies rarely involve them sporting chiselled jaws and huge muscles. I don’t see this as a problem. My wife is very much looking forward to this game (I guess that’s why I don’t have the same problem some on here have where they say they’ll be embarrassed to play it - perhaps they’re scared of their mums walking in lol, at least that would be better than being embarrassed by their visual interests!).

If the game is good I'll buy it, that's all I really care about. Makes no difference to me if she's naked or wearing a nun outfit!

@get2sammyb tent pole. How apt. 👍

@thefourfoldroot1 Incorrect. The pendulum reaches equilibrium when it loses momentum from external forces, I.e. environment, that doesn't give one direction an unfair push, I.e wind, I.e. a male dominated industry work force. Applying additional pressure in the opposite direction just exacerbates the swinging. You haven't even given the pendulum enough time to reach equilibrium, and you insinuate fear that the corrective side is running out of control. And yet women only make up about a quarter of developers while women by some studies make up nearly 50 percent of gamers. You can't criticize a movement when the people running the industry are still 75% men catering toward an audience with a much different makeup. The gaming industry is what 50 years old, and the most progress has been made in the last 10 years. I think it we can also safely extend that 50 years another 100 years or more, as the gaming industry really is just an extension of the computer industry and society at large.

And, yes, we should compare women in video games to reality. It's the only metric by which we can know how distorted they are and if this has any adverse effects. The person with the blasé attitude is you, for goodness sake.

@thefourfoldroot1 Picture two people with their hands pushing against each other. Person A is pushing harder than person B. Person B then starts pushing a little bit harder to reach equilibrium but still hasn't reached it. But person A is arguing that person B needs to stop pushing so hard because they're getting out of control. Your person A.

@thefourfoldroot1 One further point, insinuating and generalizing that most everyone who's counteracting the pendulum swing toward hyper-sexualization as followers exposes a prejudice. While, yes, people in movements can be followers, this recognition ignores whether the activist actually have a convincing argument. With men making up 75% of the video game workforce it would be really challenging to argue that the perspective on women isn't one dominated by men still currently.

@kcarnes9051
No, you just aren’t considering gravity as an external force on a pendulum, but let’s not get bogged down in your analogy now, it’s unnecessary.

You seem to be claiming that because women aren’t an exactly equal force as developers, and yet they are perhaps 50% of “gamers” (hugely debatable when talking about gaming in the context we usually think of it on this site by the way), that there can’t be an over correction taking place. This makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Beyond that point, it’s not even devs that push the social needle and make change anyway; It’s activists and related groups who pressurise companies and devs, politicians and universities etc into making change under threat of bad PR. Whether we feel that’s a morally great or terrible thing depends on our politics, but we can at least agree that this is the case. Devs have little to no influence on what can be released, publishers OK everything, and they do so using focus groups and consulting with various organisations that are ostensibly trying to keep them out of the PR sh*t. So the fact there might be more men in the technical jobs is not particularly relevant.

Secondly, there is certainly an over correction (meaning we have moved past the point of equilibrium, I’m not convinced we can necessarily trust the pushback, which is where your pendulum analogy breaks down). We generally see this expressed in society when one side is celebrated for its expression and the other side vilified. We have reached this point now I believe, or will very soon do so.

Regarding convincing arguments - the only arguments I find convincing are logical ones, I do not care if it is mainly men or mainly women putting them forwards. To presume it should even matter is strange to me and implies a belief that men or women may be more or less logical by nature.

@thefourfoldroot1 If you think that developers don't have a huge influence in art direction, regardless of focus groups, I frankly don't know what to say. You do realize that there is active pushback by creators against focus groups and PR and that there is generally some compromise? Creators are not some floppy reed in the window. Lordy. This is all without knowing what prejudices the focus group facilitators in the video game industry might have, anyway.

So from a logic standpoint, you're kind of skipping over some variables.

Any chance that a company run mostly by men that hires game developers that are mostly men also might connect with focus group facilitators that are mostly men. I mean, in a buddy buddy world, what are the chances?

The predominate theory that you expressed yourself is that women don't share as much gaming enthusiasm as men do. Basically every study disagrees with your feelings about the matter. The context of the game is irrelevant. A video game is a video regardless if it's on a phone or otherwise. And might it just be that the phone market grew out of a more liberal market given it's more recently development than console gaming. Might it be that women game more on their phone specifically because it's not the same toxic male environment that consoles have a greater tendency to cater toward.

Even still, there is increasing evidence that console gaming among women is much higher than you might believe regardless of what your narrow experience might suggest:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/463558/pc-and-video-games-gender-distribution-germany/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/232383/gender-split-of-us-computer-and-video-gamers/

https://explodingtopics.com/blog/number-of-gamers#gamer-demographics

https://playtoday.co/blog/stats/gamer-demographics/

@Zenos Did I say anything about hiring a woman over a more qualified man? Don't jump to conclusions. The point is women make up about 50% of video game players, and the trend toward greater participation for women has largely increased with some deviation. It's also safe to say, woman love video games about as much as men do. And it's safe to say that women have only increased in their participation in development despite their being evidence that the work environment can still be toxic. There is even some controversy over two women being fired centered around this very issue for this very game. The technology field in general has a long storied history of prejudice against women, often omitting the accomplishment of women. If you can't see how the current state of the industry, with 75% men making decisions about game content for an audience made of up nearly 50% women—it's shocking that you can't see how this could have problematic effects and at least recognize it without launching into imagined solutions that I never suggested.

@Zenos Show your critique of these studies and its methodology. You have better numbers somewhere or are you just basing this off your narrow experience? some of these studies go back to the mid-2000. Are you saying they've changed their methodology over time to skew the results?

@Zenos Hey! You did everything but admit that 75% percent of men making content for an audience made up of 50% women—might just be problematic. It's really easy to make that logical leap. From there we can look at solutions that don't involve knee-jerk fears of stealing jobs from men.

@kcarnes9051
“ The predominate theory that you expressed yourself is that women don't share as much gaming enthusiasm as men do. ”

Wooah now fella! You’re going to have to point me to what led to that error on your part. I didn’t say that at all. Although they do show less enthusiasm for technical JOBS including development, but that’s something which we thankfully never discussed as it widens the debate way too far!

Do women have less of an interest in gaming? Absolutely 100% not. Do they seemed to enjoy different types of games. Yes, as you say, the evidence would suggest so. More mobile gaming and PC gaming. Do those formats have fewer overly sexualised females than do consoles? No, quite the opposite in fact. So I’m really not getting your point.

@Zenos No, I responded according to your words, and I took your words for their meaning. It's not my job to deconstruct what you really meant. If you have fears that women are going to steal men's jobs, please at least recognize that women had jobs kept from them for literally hundreds if not thousands of years. Your crocodile tears over some perceived methods of rebalancing is silly.

@thefourfoldroot1 you literally were debating the studies are not accurate, which would suggest a disbelief that women are not as enthused about gaming.

Stating that it's a predominately theory was an overstep but the rest of your sentiment flows from that assumption quite fluidly.

@thefourfoldroot1 So, at least we can agree that women indeed do share a similar interest in video gaming in general. So when you hear voices asking for a broader representation and less sexualization that these are just a few overreactive activists that are turning against the predominate opinions? Could it just maybe be that the pendulum has in fact not even swung far enough, and we actually haven't even seen the greatest changes in the industry as more women (and men who are feminists) express their desire for change and are increasingly listened to by a changing demographic in game development. Time will tell.

@Zenos I still don't know what you mean. You expressed fear that women are going to be given jobs that men deserve. What else do you mean?

@Zenos Take a moment to contemplate the fact that you're arguing with me about some perceived actual meaning other than your actual words, without at least acknowledging literally the most important point here that 75% men making content for a demographic made of 50% women is problematic. You don't have to jump to additional conclusions to just admit that.

If you don't think that 100s of year of discrimination doesn't have affects in our modern world then we have no basis for conversation. Saying that it's reductionist is a dismissal of every other point I've made in support of my stance.

I've never once mentioned sexism in this entire thread. You keep misrepresenting my words. I said a male dominated view. Whether or not it is sexism is a tangential topic.

In any case, think about any other aspect of life in which women occupying 50 percent of a space controlled by 75% men—and that having a balanced outcome for women.

This like saying that men know what women want. Women know what women want. And men get it wrong frequently. Are we going to debate this?

@Zenos Take this with a grain of salt because it's just one woman's opinion, but this is from what I would consider a pretty average female gamer in her late 20s who I posed this question to: what are your opinions on the sexualization of women in video gaming:

"My thought is that it’s still over-sexualized but not as bad as previously, and women aren’t being cast in stereotypical heroine-in-distress tropes or ditsy airheads. And with all the new world-building games played in the third person, it’s pretty cool to see female characters have cool weapons or useful non-skin-exposing equipment to wear.

I still do think video games are very much catered and made with the male gaze in mind though. Especially when it comes to character dialogue/storyling in the game or how one approaches how to play a game, the thought process is very much masculine and aggressive."

@Zenos I didn't use a buzz word. The toxicity toward women in the gaming industry is well documented.

@Zenos Minimizing workplace discrimination is never a good look.

I like turtles.

@__jamiie "I'm not going to get into another argument about this game." And yet here you are.

Shiftup confirmed for based!

No issue, it really comes down to player choice too, you don't have to put on her barely there outfit if you don't want to...but if like me, you probably will lol.

This is par for the course for korean games. Snowflakes adjust. 😋

@kcarnes9051 So what percentage of female gamers worldwide take umbrage with this sort of thing and what percentage are totally fine with it?
Actually let's go further shall we, what percentage of female gamers actually want to play games like this and like to cosplay as characters like Eve and 2b?

Your statistics are useless because you can't dictate what people should like or be acceptable off, even though you clearly wish that was the case.

@RoomWithaMoose Yeah that's fine, I was pacifically refering to the part of your now deleted or removed comment where you stated you were annoyed at the people who like this sort of thing because they think they have the moral high ground.

Except whenever I see a discussion or heated debate about this sort of thing the comments are usually filled with remarks like you're incels and perverts, or you're juvenile and childish. For example this comment section is full of them. That to me is one side trying to act superior and look down on the other because they already assume they have the moral high ground.

Anyway discussions like this have become tiresome to me and I prefer not to participate if I can help it, plus I can understand how either side can be easily annoyed by the other so let's just leave it at that shall we.

@MrMagic I can’t quote a specific percentage but my personal experience reading a lot of Reddit posts in women and LGBTQ focused communities along with speaking personally with many female gamers (yes, I frequently bring this up) is that there’s a general sentiment that games are better now than they were but there is a degree of oversexualization still present. Across the board women I’ve spoken to and read love the option of having character customization that doesn’t involve just sexy. This squares with my own personal experience and general observation of a degree of oversexualization as well as a pretty vitriolic community of male gamers who bag on any female character that isn’t overtly sexual. This all is combined with a known fact that games are made by a workforce comprised of 75% male developers, and it’s further combined with well documented examples of workplace discrimination and harassment by male players. And lastly sprinkle on a widely held incorrect assumption that women do not play games nearly as much as men do. All of this in my lived experience seems to paint a picture that women’s preferences are not as valued or incorporated into the gaming industry and are discouraged for taking up space. I 100% confirm that many women love sexy female characters, as this squares with the conversations and comments I’ve had and read. But comments that strictly champion hypersexualization are the minority in my experience. Very few dismiss the issue. My experience is not the end all be all, but I am inclined to take the women I’ve spoken to at their word, and the industry environment seems to support that conclusion. Given all this, I find it it extremely hard to understand and pretty unsettling that so many gamers (predominately men in my experience) take umbrage to bring this topic up at all, as it seems to at least be something to entertain and take seriously. For me this seems a fairly reasonable and balanced take.

Would you say in your experience that in speaking with female gamers and engaging with them online that oversexualization of the female form is mostly a non-issue? Is that your lived experiences actually asking them their honest thoughts?

@Northern_munkey there is a difference between getting into an argument and simply stating your opinion and leaving it at that.

@kcarnes9051
Nope. Because you just jumped from more women like videogames (agreed) to women aren’t being “represented” because we have the very rare occasions, as here, where a particular body type is, for once, allowed to be shown without being shouted down. You also presume what feminists think, whereas there are many waves of feminism that have different opinions on these things.

@naruball fair enough I just usually expect much more of a puritanical tirade to spew forth to be honest. My bad 👍

When I play as sexy Geralt, no one cares. When I play as sexy Eve/woman, then it is seen as perverted. Nothing wrong with sexy versions of men and women in media. People who uncomfortable by sex and the human body give me the willies. Not everything is for everybody, but especially nowadays to suggest that this isn't ok.. you do know there are women who look like this in real life, right? What are they not allowed to be proud of their bodies too?

@kcarnes9051 Your 100% definitely to be trusted personal experience means less than nothing to me. As far as I'm concerned you're just a random person on the internet who claims they are some sort of higher authority on this subject because you mix in the same circles as people who have the same self righteous mindset as you.

I don't claim to be an expert on this matter and I don't have an obvious axe to grind like you either, but let me guess, you also think violence in video games is a problem and that comedy should be censored as well? In fact don't answer that because honestly I have no interest in your answer. Bye. 👋

@Zenos isn't it strange that no one conplains that Hollywood casts beautiful people for their movies and no one complains?

But videogame companies have spent so much time taking beautiful models and "downgrading their natural beauty" (thank you Blackrock and Vanguard and ESG loans) that when a company doesn't do it, it becomes a controversy?

I don’t really care one way or another, but I’m absolutely howling at the comments here being so passionately for this, alluding to this being realistic for women and “appreciating the female form.”

@EvenStephen7 you have seen the actual real life model that motion captured this yes? That's about as real as "real" can get and in my opinion makes all the claims of "real women not looking like this" redundant.

@Northern_munkey Yes, I saw that. Though as “the basis” for the character that doesn’t look like a very accurate 1:1 representation. In other words, things were exaggerated.

Either way, I don’t know if a supermodel is “as real as it gets” either any more than I’d hold up The Rock as an achievable physique for most men. Especially since both had work done.

Again, I’m not offended. I’ve always been a DoA fan! But some of these comments are hilarious in a very virgin kind of way. Especially when it’s so obviously less about “realistic representation” and “appreciating the female form” and more about seeing cartoon boobies. I’d take them more seriously if they were being honest.

@EvenStephen7 I agree. The comments have been quite entertaining.

@Summer235 Female here too and i don't understand either whats wrong with having sexy outfits in video games. Especially when there's a choice. So if i decide to wear a mini skirt and a tank top at the mall irl i am being "objectified"? To me feminism is doing what you want not what others think is apropriete or not for you.

@MrMagic Please indicate where I've stated that I think I'm of a higher authority on this topic? You said I claimed this. I did not. I presented my anecdotal experience along with factual numbers relating to the gaming industry composition and disposition that seem to align with my anecdotal experience. I welcomed input from you to add your own anecdotal experience with women and you did even make an effort. Again, I ask you, have you engaged with women who game and asked them their honest opinions about the sexualization of women in video gaming? Like, have you had these conversations? Just curious.

@MrMagic Dude, none of my comments were deleted. And I didn't edit any of them without telegraphing an edit.

Are you sure you know who you're talking to? I never even said I'm annoyed at people that like this sort of thing. I said I'm annoyed at misguided attempts to defend this sort of thing. Did you hallucinate or are you really not comprehending our conversation?

@thefourfoldroot1 "Nope. Because you just jumped from more women like videogames (agreed) to women aren’t being “represented” because we have the very rare occasions, as here, where a particular body type is, for once, allowed to be shown without being shouted down. You also presume what feminists think, whereas there are many waves of feminism that have different opinions on these things."

Point to any comment that I've made where I've objected to the depiction of sexualization in Stellar Blade.

I've in fact stated, that sexualization has its place in all media, and that the issue of sexualization isn't individual instances but rather overarching trends.

Please point to any comment that I've made attempt to speak for all feminists. These views are my own and a reflection of my lived experiences and supported, admittedly poorly at times, by facts about the gaming industry.

I would say that if a workforce of 75% men in the game developing industry make games for an audience comprised of 50% women—that this would not be a good example of women being well represented in the creation of games. Seems self-evident. But it appears I'm the crazy one around here.

Wow, so many cool guys in these comments!

What’s the name of the outfit in the video? ‘Next To Naked’ ???

And where is @Czar_Khastik in this comments section??? If ever there were an article needing his wit and ….‘perspective’ , it’s this one! 🤣😂🤣😂

It's terribe how this game is sexualising women! Women shouldn't be sexualised like this! I'm so annoyed at this game I've stopped watching Taylor Swift's Era Tour concert. She's so sexy in those countless, skintight, revealing costumes she chooses to wear for her millions of young, impressionable fans.

@SweetChaos thanks for contributing your perspective on the conversation as a woman.

I'm interested to know what your individual perspective is on the sexualization of women in gaming in general, not just on the matter of Stellar Blade.

Do you see the gaming scene as a whole as having no problematic aspects in depictions of sexualizing the feminine form currently or in the past? Is it a non-issue in your mind?

I'm not speaking in a puritanical sense that sexualization is wrong, especially not in individual depictions. I'm more coming from the viewpoint of questioning whether industry wide hyper sexualization can have negative real world impact on body image and on participation of women in certain areas of gaming. And if a male dominated industry inhibits a more well-rounded depiction of what women want to see in games.

Do you see any issues with game development in the hands of a workforce comprised of 75% men when the gamers are nearly 50% women?

If so, in your opinion, does this skew the depiction of feminine characters toward one catering more to the male gaze? By that I mean not just the design of the characters, but the framing of shots on the bodies of feminine characters.

Or has the male dominated industry pretty much got it right with how you'd like women to overall be depicted in gaming?

Do you see any differences broadly speaking in the sexualization of women versus the sexualization of men? Do you see both as being equally sexualized? If one is more sexualized than the other do you see this as being problematic in any way?

Do you have any thoughts about the depiction of women in gaming and how that might contribute to effects on body image, especially for young girls?

Thank you for any thoughts! I admit that's a lot of questions so no need to address every question or any at all if you don't feel like entertaining my interest in this topic.

Finally congratz to this creator for having a pair and being a man. This is why I enjoy modding on my pc because we have been able to make the females the way we want them and not locked behind political agents. Done have this game preorderd for my ps5

Men spend much more time playing video games, spend more money playing video games and play more AAA/multiplayer games than women. Women tend to play more casual/mobile/indie games.

So of course as a company I'd focus on men.

You need to dig into the "women make up to 50% of the gaming populace" talking point because as always statistics are misleading.

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics."

Western developers today create women who are masculine and men who are hyper masculine.

Where are all the soft, feminine men protagonists? That would be the equivalent of western developers creating ripped, masculine women protagonists.

The vast majority of gamers are straight males (I’m a bi make myself so not a perfect fit for category) but I think it’s great to make characters that appeal to the primary demographic

225 comments??? Drop the demo already. The people are thirsty. Haha.

@RoomWithaMoose - "What does kinda bother me is how defensive people get over this stuff. Always trying to make it sound like a perverted character design is more realistic, or somehow on a moral high ground."

Actually yes I was really drunk when I replied to you and couldn't find your original comment but I remember reading it as as you saying people were using the character to assume the moral high ground which still makes perfect sense but you said the character itself is on the moral high ground.

Maybe people wouldn't need to use the character in that way if people like you weren't trying to eradicate these character designs from their hobby.

Don't pretend you're okay with this game because that's not how your comment reads. It is full of underhanded remarks, you were being extremely condescending.

The "latex" one is a little over the top for my taste but I appreciate the freedom of choice for players that like that sort of thing.

I'm just glad Eve looks like a video game character I want to play as. It's not a dude masquerading as a woman.

@riceNpea Love how you use Taylor Swift as an example. Have you ever seen the degeneracy of a Nicki Minaj Music Video?

@RoomWithaMoose Yes, I went to the strip club and asked some stripper's and they said they were totally fine with it. Why don't you try that yourself? And ask some OnlyFans models while you're at it.

Maybe you can try and convince some of them they are wrong for being okay with Eve's design and clothing because it is clear that is what you are attempting to do now to Sweet. When you said you had talked with women you conveniently left out the part where you try and manipulate them to think the same way you do.

How is anyone supposed to take anything you say seriously. Just get a grip, it is a work of fiction it isn't real and if the developers wanted to give Eve 3 tits it makes no difference whatsoever.

Western progressives: you can be promiscuous and wear little clothing in public, more power to you!

Also Western progressives: you CANNOT create a fictional character that features basic characteristics of women, they must be as androgynous as possible

Looks good, seems like a lot of outfit choices, so if there's one you don't like, you can choose something else.

@MrMagic ...Are you having a freakout, my man? I definitely didn't say any of...whatever it is you're now claiming I said.

Unless you're just trolling...? I dunno.

EDIT: Oh! I think you actually did mix me up with someone else this time. I just read the other comment that's actually somewhat applicable to me. I didn't mean that people are using the character to claim a moral high ground nor that the character itself is the moral high ground (I don't even know what the latter could mean). I meant that people like to act as though critics of character designs like Eve are somehow anti-woman or anti-free speech or anti-whatever, as though them supporting a sexually charged design makes them better in some way. Which does happen. I assume the 'realistic' part of the argument is self-explanatory.

I still never said anything about wanting to de-sex Eve or that I have a problem with her design. I literally started that comment you quoted by saying that. That's why I'm so condescending: I have to keep reiterating the same basic things over and over again. I don't know what's hard to understand about me not objecting to Eve's design while bemoaning people defending her design with arguments like "what's wrong with celebrating a woman's body," "I'm glad they make characters that appeal specifically to my sexual desires," "it's a more realistic design if it's sexualized," etc. Like, I really don't get what's confusing about that. I think those are all really weird, outright harmful opinions to have, regardless of whether or not I think Eve's design is problematic. And I have to keep reiterating that over, and over, and over, AND OVER again.

@RoomWithaMoose @MrMagic, I believe these comments should be directed at me, lol. Stop picking on the other guy.

And I've already stated this multiple times throughout this comment section that I have no issue with the individual depictions in games.

I have no issue with Stellar Blade. No issue with Eve's design.

I do have concern with INDUSTRY WIDE TRENDS based on historical context, known sexism in the industry workplace, and, yes, anecdotal evidence that shapes my opinion.

I am happy that you like these designs and I'm happy that strippers you spoke to do, as well, and even if I didn't take you at your word, I would wholeheartedly conclude that many women, including OnlyFans models, as you mentioned, like them, too.

But, again, as repeated, I'm talking about broad industry trends. Not individual cases. These are separate issues and have different implications.

@kcarnes9051 You're telling me he's having a whole other extended argument with someone wherein he's misunderstanding their broad, general thoughts about sexualization in media as a direct attack on Eve's design?

@MrMagic Mr. Magic, you so cra-cra.

EDIT: If you want to continue these debates, Magic, I suggest you take a step back and reevaluate our opinions and what exactly you're trying to get across. I don't mean that in a condescending way either; I got too heated in another conversation I had in this thread. I thought it ended on a much better note than it started once I calmed down a little.

@RoomWithaMoose Yes, yes, he is. Admittedly I'm really long-winded in my writing, so I can't exactly blame him for losing the point, lol.

@kcarnes9051 Same, bro. Same.

@MrMagic Guess what, if you look back, several of the comments I made, I've quite literally acknowledged that the industry has changed a lot in regards to sexualization. I even went so far as to quote a female friend of mine who also said the times have changed and I concurred with her assessment.

So saying I'm stuck in the 90s is just categorically false.

I am in no way shape or form concerned this game will undo anything. In fact, again, further up in the comments, I predicted that in some ways the pendulum of societal norms as depicted in games overcorrected as a natural process of swinging. And now it's swinging back toward the center, hence reintroducing more sexualized characters into the more diversified character set we're now getting across gaming.

EDIT: And I do not think this is inherently a bad thing.

That said, do I still have concerns about the depiction of women in gaming as a whole, as a broad trend, and the relationship that has with the lopsided male/female ratio in game development? Yes I do. Please understand the nuance.

Again, I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I do not care about isolated examples of sexualization. Do I need to put it in caps for you?

Heck, the combat in this game looks kind of slick and I'm thinking about picking it up if reviews are good.

Like, you're impossible to have a conversation with let alone have a debate because you've misconstrued my main point and made numerous fallacious statements about things I've said or implied.

You continually pull out straw men.

And by the way, I have no ***** clue what ResetEra is, but thanks for telling me about it because now I'm going to seek it out. For goodness sake. It's like you're pulling from an endless drawer of filed away generalizations in your brain.

@MrMagic I never said this is a game for perverted nerds. If you took me identifying as a nerd that's openly attracted to fake women as underhanded slander... I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I was LITERALLY calling myself a nerd that's attracted to fake women. There was no secret meaning to that, and, at most, I asserted a correlation between nerd-dom and artificial attraction. I did not in any way mean to imply this game exclusively appeals to pervy nerds, or that if you are interested in this game you must be a pervy nerd. Nor was I feigning nerdiness to insult a group I don't consider myself a part of. And, again — AGAIN — I AM completely fine with Eve and Stellar Blade.

And I just had to spend an entire paragraph reassuring you that the presumptuous stances you're imposing on me over one of my facetious, throw-away comments are not, in fact, representative of reality. Which is exactly what I meant in my last comment; it would be nice if this discussion advanced at all beyond your overreacting accusations at my expense.

Like kcarnes9051 said, I've no idea what ResetEra is. I have heard the name before, but don't know what it was, what it was known for, nor the applicable connotations that would make one's association with it derogatory.

I don't know why you can't understand our points or try to meet in the middle with either of us. But imposing opinions upon kcarnes9051 and me that we don't actually believe or endorse just so you can pretend you're winning these debates only makes you look like a fool. And, at this point, I don't even know why you're so hostile.

EDIT: Also, let's not forget the fact that kcarnes9051 and I are only interacting because you seemingly mixed us up. I'd say that faux pas is more embarrassing than us showing civility towards each other.

@get2sammyb please no more articles about this games costumes or art direction. Could we have an article about how the game may play? I don't know, anything other than another one of these and if you are going to persist with these articles could you maybe use a different showcase for the other costumes? Not having a dig here (I know strange yes?) I'm trying to be constructive this time 👍

@Northern_munkey No way Pushsquare will do that. See all the clicks and comments it has generated 🤣

@Summer235 wow that Ivy sure is among the sexiest

Finally a game for all the people who couldn't play Horizon because it didn't fullfill their desires. Now they can play with their pants off.

I see nothing wrong with any of these annnd I'ma spends bags for them DLCs too

My personal preference would be not to play the game with the character having the look posted at the top (where she is almost naked.) I like some of the ones in the screenshot with the four choices, for example she looks real good in those jeans.

I am more happy that the character has a nice, full figured feminine body and face. That's all most of us ask for.

I play games for escapism and feel realism, outside of the handful of titles that actually benefit from it, more often than not gets in the way of fun.

Eve looks great, as does the combat - somewhere between Sekiro and DMC. Day 1 for me.

@kcarnes9051 A commonly misused statistic. Women might make up close to 50% of gamers, but those studies are broad and include the likes of Match3 and Farmville.

The most comprehensive study I've found to date (https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/) , which coincides with independent genre-specific surveys done by multiple publishers, put the female player base at 20% or less for Action RPGs, 7% or less for FPSs and 2% for sports games.

@Weez You're wasting your time. They disregard anything that doesn't fit their narrative.

@Northern_munkey There's quite a bit of gameplay footage floating around. This gives a decent idea of how it plays:
https://www.reddit.com/link/1bafgx6/video/dspb4yiv6anc1/player

The raw footage from the demo looks a bit slower than the early official footage - I'm chalking that up to it being from peoples first few hours with the game. It reminds me of both Sekiro ("perilous attacks" that require different actions to mitigate, emphasis on fast sequential parries for defence and high enemy damage) and DMC (fast combo orientated offense with many unlockable moves, combos chaining with instant ranged attacks, aerial combat).

@rusty82 You kind of are now.

@Weez I know women make up less of the console demographic. And I know they prefer puzzle games, etc. So I'm not exactly sure what your point is here. Are you arguing that FarmVille and puzzle games are not video games? Is Tetris not a video game?

I think it's important to note that the study you just pulled is from the beginning of 2017, so a 7-year-old study. Now, that's not terribly old, but I contend that games trends have shifted since then, not so much as to make up the difference so as to make things equal for console gaming by any means. In any case, it's important to notice that in your study, women made up a substantial portion of Dragon Age Inquisition, and a far higher than normal percentage for AC Syndicate. I dug into reddit forums for opinions of why these are outliers, and it was overly expressed that women loved these games because of player choice in character customization or the ability to play as a non-male character. It would be interesting to know what gender ratios are in games currently, seeing as how character customization and notable females headlining games has seemed to be something developers are being more conscious of. It may very well be that developers looked at stats like the ones I mentioned as a way to draw women in. Which begs the questions, how are women not being catered to in console gaming?

Furthermore, think of things this way. Women basically entirely avoid or hide themselves when playing multiplayer games due to harassment. This is a HUGE reason why women don't play these games, and in just about any conversation you see online regarding these types of games, harassment is quote as a reason.

Now what are the most popular multiplayer games: FPS. Call Of Duty. Sports games. FIFA. Now, I'm not saying that if harassment were to go away that suddenly the demographics would even out, but there are environmental factors perpetuated by men that skew these statistics and keep women away from participating.

@Weez yeah I've seen most of the game play footage and watched the demo on YouTube. But thanks anyway👍

@kcarnes9051 "Women basically entirely avoid or hide themselves when playing multiplayer games due to harassment." You are talking utter rubbish here. I know plenty of female gamers (my wide included) and they don't hide away. I feel sorry for the poor saps who try and insult my wife when she ventures onto call of duty for a bit of free for all because she verbally tears them a new anus. Also they don't just like puzzle games. You need to start living in this century buddy...

@Northern_munkey I didn't say all women. That was not my intent, but thank you for clarifying. I should have been clearer and rather said a lot or some women entirely avoid or hide themselves because of harassment. Regardless, this is a pretty widely held sentiment among women I've read on the web. It's actually shocking how often it's repeated.

That's great your wife and your female friends hold their own, but let's not pretend that gender-based harassment wouldn't drive a certain number of women away.

I believe I read that while harassment in general is fairly equally directed at men and women in gaming, but women are like 11 times more likely to be the subject of gendered-based harassment, I.e. saying they suck because they're a girl, making sexual statements about them that are entirely unrelated to the gameplay.

Also, I didn't say they just like puzzle games. I said they PREFER puzzle games, ETC. Meaning they prefer over the genres that men are the majority in. Match 3 mobile games, are heavily puzzle-oriented games, of which, women make up a majority of the player base.

The first point you made I'll give you partial credit on only because you pointed out a mistaken exaggeration I made, but you sidestepped the larger point of harassment being a very real thing, despite the women you know getting on well online.

The second point, you just completely misconstrued what I said.

@kcarnes9051 no I didn't misconstrue anything I just couldn't be bothered to point out all your inane fallacies concerning female gamers. I acknowledge the issues of harassment online and its not specifically women who are targeted as men are equally harassed as well. You seem reasonably well educated and reasonably intelligent as well but your ideas about women are seriously out dated. Women gamers burned their bras decades ago chum.

@kcarnes9051
> with 75% men making decisions about game content for an audience made of up nearly 50% women

The statistics are in regards to this - your own words. My choice in source was stated to be the most comprehensive I'd encountered, not the most recent. It provided a breakdown across genre, indicating a trend that has been well documented for some time - both in freely available (and, yes, more recent) research as well as internal surveys. Games with an emphasis on competition, challenge, motor skills and high skill ceilings consistently tend towards a disproportionately male player base, regardless of aesthetic. Accessible fantasy, emphasis on social behaviour, cosmetics and collectibles tends towards even to female dominated player bases.

Bottom line is men and women, generally speaking, want different things. There is overlap, but there are also competing/mutually-exclusive interests. Studios prioritising their primary demographic isn't controversial - it's prudent. The very same thing is done for games with a predominately female player base.

So, by your own logic, 75% men making decisions about game content for a niche with a mean male player base in excess of 80% is underrepresentation. But something tells me I won't hear any impassioned complaints from you about that...

@Weez You lot seem to be confused about the point I’m making. I’m not attacking this game or this genre of game with sexy women. I like these games. I’m talking about the broader industry. And while, yes, I have no problem with this game or the contained depictions, it does fit within broader industry trends. These trends have improved for women’s participation, but I contend that there are still issues in the industry.

It’s like eating candy bars. Eating one is fine every now and then. Eating 5 every day for 50 years might kill you. Scaling it back to just 1 candy bar a day and eating veggies, while an improvement, still might not be good for you health.

Do you understand the difference between individual examples and broad trends?

@Weez When the industry isn’t catering to female interests in AAA gaming you simply can’t know if they’d show up or not. When female gamers face tidal waves of harassment from men in FPS and esports communities you can’t know if they’d show up. When women are not as targeted for advertisements for gaming, you can’t know if they wouldn’t show up. If women are not as cultured toward gaming as boys are, you can’t know if they’d show up.

There are all kinds of barriers that dissuade women from playing video games besides just “girls don’t like big AAA games as much by nature”.

You are not taking these factors into account.

Just because a business decided to target women and failed before other cultural elements had time to catch to make women feel comfortable within that market does not mean that women inherently are adverse to engaging in that space.

You don’t open a door to someone, call them a ***** and expect them to walk through it.

I have no straw man. You’re just throwing your straw man in the air and catching it.

@kcarnes9051

> When the industry isn’t catering to female interests in AAA gaming

Except a number of studios do - quite successfully.

> you can’t know if they’d show up.

But they did - the context of this discussion is close on 50% of gamers being female.

> “girls don’t like big AAA games as much by nature”.
> business decided to target women and failed before other cultural elements had time to catch

Disingenuous, again. I stated that interests and priorities, generally speaking, are meaningfully influenced by sex. Despite significant efforts to prove otherwise, sex-based stereotypes of genre preferences, particularly in regards to certain types of gameplay and content, remain exceedingly accurate.
General consensus tends towards evolutionary factors and biological-proximate causes. It's not a perfect predictor, and there are outliers, but it also isn't a cultural issue. It's consistent across multiple cultures, multiple mediums and multiple decades.

Treating disproportionately male or female interests as a cultural "problem" is a problem. A mature market should strive to cater specifically to a expanding range of niches, not warp and conform peoples wants into a small subset of overly homogenous niches that increasingly fail to adequately satisfy anyone.

@Weez Gender is a cultural issue. Sex is a biological one. You’re trying to minimize this just to sex, and that is, again, a straw man. If you’re trying to say culture does not have an effect on gender we’re gonna have to wade into an even thornier issue.

All you have to do is look at cultures across the world and across time to see that gender norms around clothing changes. Culture affects gender.

Bravo, for game studios catering to women in AAA games successfully. Could it be there’s a larger market there? Time will tell.

Here’s an interesting question for you. Do you think that women have more encouragement to play sports than they do to play esports.

I would argue there is a greater degree of cultural encouragement for women to play sports. Especially with school programs that target men and women fairly equally.

And, yet, there was a time when people thought women didn’t like sports or couldn’t even play sports.

Women in engagement has only grown over time.

But there is very little encouragement to play esports. And there is an awful lot of hostility to those to join in the male dominated sphere of esports.

The statistics show that women don’t play esports very much.

If you took statistics of women playing sports in the 60s you’d get a pretty low percentage, too. Just different cultural barriers in the way.

But to say that women wouldn’t play esports much just because the current statistics say they aren’t would be a fallacy.

Could just be the environment isn’t ripe for women to feel comfortable playing esports.

I recall a time when men actively used to chase women and tear their numbers off when attempting to run in marathons.

Kind of reminds me of harassment in esports.

@Weez Here's an interesting way to frame this:

In 2019 women made up 5% of the esport scene.

And yet women make up roughly 20% of the US military.

Even the US Marine Corp is 10% women.

Women would much rather risk dying than play esports.

So either biologically women just prefer the option of possible death over esports.

OR

Call me crazy! There are cultural issues at play.

EDIT: Let's also note, that the percentage of women in the US military would likely be higher if they could compete with men physically at the same level.

Research shows that women can be just as skill at video games and progress just as fast. There's no reason why women can't be just as good at esports.

So there is no physical barrier for women as there is in the military, which makes the comparison even more striking.

@kcarnes9051
> Gender is a cultural issue. Sex is a biological one. You’re trying to minimize this just to sex, and that is, again, a straw man...

To wade directly into the thorny issue, the reason I cited sex was because the aforementioned preferences conform to biological sex even when the individual identifies as a different gender. This might be why, despite facing even greater adversity, transgender women are disproportionately represented in the e-sports scene relative to biological woman. I really don't understand this obsession with ignoring evolutionary and biological factors, or the self-righteousness with which it is pursued. You understand that individual contentedness drops off a cliff when cultural forces steer people away from the proximate baseline, right? Hardly a moral victory.

As for all the additional word salad, let me be clear. I never once advocated against promoting gaming to women. To excluding anyone from e-sports. In favour of toxicity. But these are separate issues - tangential to my issue with your stance.

All I've ever argued was that natural preferences exist, that they are demonstrably influenced by biological factors, as supported by substantial reproducible evidence, and need not be "fixed". That naively forcing demographics into studios catering to these preferences based on a myopic interpretation of equality is negative sum, and that creating a more diverse market that caters to a wider range of preferences is preferable - both financially and in terms of player enjoyment. As a developer, player enjoyment is what I care about, which is why I defend my position.

Either way, repeating myself is tedious. I'm out.

@Weez “I really don't understand this obsession with ignoring evolutionary and biological factors,”

Again, another straw man. I’ve never ignored biological factors. I absolutely 100% understand that there are biological reasons why the sexes might have preference toward different interests.

My point is the culture skews what the sexes have access to and can discourage participation in what otherwise could be interests.

If culture doesn’t affect interest and statistical representation than why has participation in women’s sports increased by 850% since the 1970s? Could it have anything to do with cultural shifts in giving women greater access to sports, normalizing women playing sports, advocating female role models in sports, etc. No, none of these cultural changes had any effect on the 850% percent increase in women in sports? Should we actually rely on the 1970s statistics because that’s actually the real level of interest women have in sports?

@Weez “You understand that individual contentedness drops off a cliff when cultural forces steer people away from the proximate baseline, right?”

Yes, individual contentedness also dropped off a cliff when black kids were let into white schools. I guess, if you only take (edit: racist) white people’s contentedness into account.

@Weez “That naively forcing demographics into studios catering to these preferences based on a myopic interpretation of equality is negative sum”

Again, another strawman! Where in my 50 messages have I suggested FORCING game studios toward catering to certain preferences?

I think you’ve made some MASSIVE assumptions.

Pointing out a problem does not equal suggesting solutions to a problem.

@PcTV yeah the irony isn't lost on me. Lol

This game just doesn't appeal to me. With that said, funny story once.

I recall having a argument with an person where I was critical of the Nier: Automota. Their best retort that just hated sexiness in games.

Personally, I have no preference as it's up the dev on how they wish their product to be. However, I don't think "artistic" vision is an excuse not to be critical of some aspects.

Im no prude. If fan service is what you going for then so be it. It's just not for me, as it takes me out of the whatever narrative you're trying to tell. However if sexuality serves a important meaning in your story, then Im okay with how you present the characters. I'll give it a look.

Still though, when I see stuff like this it makes me laugh as I think back to that guy who thought because I found Nier: Automata to be a bit generic (I wrote more than just that), the only come back is I "hate" sexy women.

@RoomWithaMoose Beautifully put and I couldn't agree more ✌️