@colonelkilgore I was wondering if you noticed one of my favourite little details in the game. In the part when Abby and Lev are climbing down the ruined building (after climbing up the construction site and falling off the crane), if you stand at the edge of a broken floor and look down, after a couple seconds the cameras FOV changes to make the drop look bigger than it actually is, to reflect the fact that Abby is uncomfortable with heights.
I thought it was little touches like this that greatly improved immersion in the game.
Also the fact that you can open safes without knowing the combination, if you just listen carefully enough
@Voltan wow I didn’t actually notice that… I love that though and wish I had noticed it. I know I sound like a broken-record when I say this… but these linear cinematic-narrative led games (Naughty Dog games basically) are generally so far down the list of types of games that I want to play but somehow Naught Dog just continue to massively impress me. I studied film-making and screen-writing at Uni and my lecturers would ‘love’ Naughty Dog and their creative ‘use’ of the medium… and they weren’t easy to please tbh.
@Voltan it’s actually real subtle… like most of the things they do with dialogue. The reason I love Joel so much is that he can say so much with so few words. Same with that visual effect.
@colonelkilgore as far as I’m concerned, it’s good art if it’s somewhat divisive and I love reading other takes. It’s just too bad that the internet has a way of turning civil discussion into…well, you know.
I completely agree that we are all capable of the worst. It’s a fundamental belief of mine that forms the foundation of my entire world view, and I appreciate Naughty Dog for exploring that honestly. Morality is a funny thing, and I think these game’s nihilistic approach to its world sheds an interesting light on the themes of love and hate. Druckmann has said that the first game was about love, with this one being about hate, and I couldn’t agree more.
In the first game, the overriding question I was left with was: If love is selfless, is it possible to love someone to the point of selfishness? From there, what is love?
In the second game, the overriding impression I was left with was: Hate is an all consuming destructive vortex that we are all capable of. From there, what is morality?
To your points, I like your take on on the Mel/Owen situation, and I actually totally agree, now that I’ve completed the game a few times. In the moment of my first run through, the moment was totally wasted on me, and I guess I’m arguing that it’s due to the structure of the narrative, or at least that’s what I think kicked me out of the moment so hard.
Yeah, I think I got a little carried away with my take on Lev’s story. It’s supported better within the larger context than I initially thought, especially with you pointing out the religious fundamentalism and the games themes of morality and trauma.
That’s a nice take on the ending, and really I think you’ve nailed exactly what they were going for. She was able to finally forgive, to finally move on. Really, not being able to see that journey through is probably a big part of fanning the flames of her revenge spree. Its a good ending, and I’m satisfied with it. I still feel like those same themes could have been explored with the ending I envisioned. But alas, subverting expectations seems to be Druckmann’ M.O. Its a thematically dense game, and I appreciate the discussion. I’m at work so hopefully none of this has come off as lazy, I only have so much time to reply!
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” C.S. Lewis
@Jimmer-jammer that is a really really good juxtaposition. Can’t believe it never occurred to me but yeah… one of many beautiful threads weaved together for the overall tapestry. And no, your posts have not come across as lazy at all… as ever, your words have been thoughtful and precise. As has @Voltan’s for that matter.
I’ve been looking forward to this chat since before I even played 2… from back when I was playing the original early last month… and it’s been as insightful, thought-provoking and enjoyable as I thought it would be.
PS I love that bit on the first game being about Love and the second about Hate… and then obviously the irony that for both emotions, divided by only the narrowest of margins, ultimately the objective of both games were not carried out. Namely, ensuring the production of a cure and achieving revenge.
@colonelkilgore thanks for posting your thoughts, only just had chance to read them. Glad you loved it so much. You're right, the narrative is amazing and it's a phenomenal experience. They managed to build on the first in every way.
Don't be ashamed about the crying. Whilst I didn't cry, I certainly felt some deep emotions playing. That just shows how good the writing is.
@colonelkilgore “…the irony that for both emotions, divided by only the narrowest of margins, ultimately the objective of both games were not carried out. Namely, ensuring the production of a cure and achieving revenge.”
Brilliant!
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” C.S. Lewis
I think killing Abby would have been the “obvious” thing to have done. But I think not doing it works better as it gives that moment of insight for Ellie where she realises that she’s ruined her own existence in the name of revenge and is just continuing the cycle of killing and revenge. Killing her or not, she is still going to end up alone again but maybe she can finally make one “good” decision and move on with her life.
Maybe an obvious and boring take but that’s why it worked for me and why her return to the farm was made more powerful.
@Keith_Zissou no problem at all buddy, I’m having a bit of a busy spell myself tbh.
Yeah I’m with you on pretty much all of that to be fair. The Seraphites are a fascinating new wrinkle in The Last of Us world. I would definitely like to learn more about them (maybe Factions 2 could even go some way towards doing that) but as you also allude to, I do feel the game itself was long enough. So, it would be difficult to have done so in TLoU2. What I would add though is I feel that the Seraphites and the Wolves (hell even the Fireflies themselves) were given more context, personality and… well, just plain old ‘air-time’ than the Fireflies got in the original, so there is that I guess.
And I do feel a bit bad for low-balling the gameplay a little… as you mentioned it really does play well, a helluva lot better than the original. It’s just so in-line with most other third person games these days, while pretty much everything else is so far beyond the pack it sticks out. I also definitely found myself ‘enjoying’ the gameplay, the further I got into the game. That might be down to some of the later chapters being more to my taste maybe… or maybe it was just rocking a full arsenal? Either way, it really does play well, and that only bodes well for Factions 2 also. I normally don’t play online multiplayer unless it’s an adhoc towards a Platinum… but I might well end up putting in some time on that when it eventually releases.
@Keith_Zissou I know exactly what you mean about enjoying a game more once 'locking' into the mechanics. We all have our own terms for it... I tend to refer to it by saying 'once I've sync'd with the game'. My mate says 'once the game has embedded'. Either way though you're right, and it's why I'll give a game a lot of leeway in the initial period, as I know it can take a while.
Loving MGS2, think its going to overtake 3 as my second favourite at this rate. I think I'm probably gonna end up sick of it by the time I've either Plat'd it or given up though... man is there a lot to do for that shiney!
@Keith_Zissou yeah the dog tags, the playthroughs and the VR's etc. I'm gonna give it the obligatory 'college-try' but it does seem a lot. Still, if I manage it, it'll be up there with the most satisfying plats I guess.
Something moved me to finally boot up TLoU2 today. I’ve been try to think of a good companion game with Mass Effect and nothing seemed to gel in my mind so I just went to the top of my list of PS essentials that I own but haven’t played yet.
I’m only in the introductory areas, but am very impressed so far. I knew the game was well crafted from what I’d read as well as from what I know of Naughty Dog and their attention to detail. But I am so blown away by the accessibility and customization options. Wow, it’s on another level.
And already the voice acting and storytelling is in full shine, even though I’ve barely started to meet the new characters. I’m keeping an open mind, as I know there has been a strong camp of naysayers as well as fans, so I’m looking forward to forming my own opinion. So far so good though!
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution It's an incredible achievement but I'm firmly in the "TLoU did not need a sequel" camp - I thought the ending of the first game was perfect. I'm eager to see how your thoughts develop as the game progresses. Do you already know the big story beats?
@Th3solution hope you enjoy buddy. I approached it in a similar mindset last year (weary of both the extreme positive and negative reactions to the game). I ended up being blown away... so much so that its probably up there in my favourite 10 games of all time (I definitely wasn't expecting to be thinking that prior to starting it).
@LN78 I believe I have avoided most spoilers, but I think I might have still been exposed to one. If my suspicions are correct, the event probably happens early so I’m hoping it hasn’t spoiled too much for me. And even if my hunch is right, I am not sure of the causes leading up to the event, nor the consequences afterward.
And I also felt the first game finished perfectly and would have been fine left alone. It was one of my favorite video game endings ever. To carry on the story does somewhat cheapen the emotional impact of those final scenes. Nevertheless, I saw Naughty Dog pull off a similar feat with Uncharted, as I thought 4 ended really well. It was all tied up nicely, and yet I thoroughly enjoyed Lost Legacy. Maybe even more than UC4. So we’ll see.
@colonelkilgore Cheers, and I anticipate I might end up feeling similarly. Just the opening segments is a stark reminder of how excellently Naughty Dog can make a game look and feel.
It probably doesn’t help that I’m concurrently playing ME1 and although I’m only about a third of the way through the game, I’m seeing the same bland assets and set pieces over and over (and over and over…. 😅). In the far future it sure looks like all planets are fabricating their buildings and vehicles from the same large scale manufacturer. There is like basically 2 or 3 floor plans for all the buildings! 😂 So when I see crazy detail while walking though the base in TLoU2 like little notes posted on the wall, NPCs carrying on their lives (like looking through the window into a building and seeing a class of kids sitting with a teacher reading to them), and I got a little giddy to see the PS3 and the two DS3 controllers in Ellie’s room. The world is just so densely created and detailed by comparison. And I know the two games were made nearly 15 years apart so you can’t compare them, but it’s a striking contrast. I am still loving Mass Effect though. Nothing against it.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution Yeah will be interesting to see your thoughts on this. I thought it was a phenomenal game. My only gripes that I remember is that I thought it went on for a wee bit too long.
Life is more fun when you help people succeed, instead of wishing them to fail.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
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