Topic: PS5 Pro was a mistake (same will be with Xbox Series Alternative)

I'm going to share my understanding of the PS5 Pro which will explain why I think it is not a mistake.

Rendering graphics also involves the CPU, not just GPU. On this note the PS5 has a couple of issues.

• Rendering native 4K/60 uses too much of its CPU processing power
• It's Ray Tracing (RT) performance is crippled by its hardware.
• Additionally RT uses too much of its CPU power

When you combine 4K/60 with RT, its CPU is under too much load and this is where developers are struggling. Without enough available CPU processing power you are limited and can't create complex games with lots of things going on.

The PS5 does have upscaling technology, AMD FSR and this is a means to somewhat alleviate the above. The theory is rendering at a lower resolution uses less CPU processing power than native 4K (that's a given), and when you upscale to 4K with FSR you are suppose to still be using less CPU processing power than as if you were running native 4K. But the issue here is how much less CPU processing power are you using. Additionally using FSR with RT still performs bad because the RT hardware on the PS5 is weak.

This is where the PS5 Pro improves, it comes with more powerful RT hardware, and an AI upscaling engine. I believe their RT hardware and AI upscaling engine will offload a lot of the work from the processor, thereby allowing developers to have access to more of its CPU processing power. For a game like GTA 6 this is going to be crucial and I anticipate 4K/60 FPS GTA 6 on the PS5 Pro.

Obviously time will tell.

I definitely wouldn't call the PS5 Pro's existence a 'mistake' - but I do think the marketing and price-point decisions are somewhat strange.

There is definitely an audience for it, and a demographic that seek to attain the best performance/fidelity/visuals possible....but Sony do need to watch their $$$ so as not to steer people towards high-end PC gaming!

@Rade_UK It really does depend on how they build the game as some things are not scaled with 'Graphics'. If they use the CPU to handle Physics or the NPC's AI, those won't scale with Resolution for example. If you have 20 NPC's on screen - each with their own AI behaviour and Physics, the bullets they fire, any impacts of explosives etc etc, it doesn't matter whether its 1080p or 4k, you still have the same amount of AI and Physics load on the CPU and you may save 1-2ms on CPU rendering costs, but not enough to cut the Frame time in half from 33.3ms to 16.6ms.

Its why some games are CPU limited on Console - even dropping the resolution to 720p, relying on older lighting methods (not RT) etc is not going to deliver a Locked 60fps because certain things do not scale with graphics. You could drop the res to 480p and it won't improve the Frame Rate because its CPU limited. If AI and Physics take 20ms per frame to process, it will 'never' be a 60fps game without Changing the Game (ie reduce the number of Enemies or their AI, reduce the Physics). Most games with hundreds, if not thousands of enemies have 'simple' AI - like Zombies where their only AI is to keep heading to the player. Others have shooting, dodging and even using cover as well...

@BAMozzy I'm not aware of any PS5 game where what you said is an issue but in all fairness it will be impossible for you or I to name one unless we are the ones coding the game and have directly experienced this.

Lets keep this in context, picking GTA 6 as our moot point. Based on what you said, you feel potentially the PS5 Pro wont be able to render it at 4K/60 because its CPU would be too slow to complete the AI / physics calculations in time?

@Rade_UK I'm not saying that at all - it really does depend on the game, the way its built and the priorities of the developers. You cannot say that GTA6 for example will be a 60fps game on PS5 Pro or that it definitely won't be because none of us know exactly what the game would require from a hardware perspective to achieve that.

I can think of several games that already have performance modes but are almost certainly going to be CPU limited because even on PC with far more capable CPU's, a consistent 60fps is not achievable. Digital Foundry will often use an RTX 4090 and reduce the graphics down to 720p LOW settings to ensure the GPU is not the Bottleneck and still only get 50fps and reducing the resolution to 540p still returns the same Frame Rate.

Baldurs Gate 3 - in that market area where there is also a lot of AI for example is a CPU bottleneck - same as it is on PC too. Therefore with a 10% boost to PS5 Pro CPU, that is 'unlikely' to be enough to reach a locked 60fps. Games like Star Wars: Jedi Survivor too can't deliver a locked 60fps on high end PC's as well as Consoles.

Realistically, if a game is CPU limited as a LOT are more so on Console and a 'large' reason why they target 30fps on Consoles, then the PS5 Pro won't help. If it can only reach '40fps' on PS5, then a 10% boost isn't enough to reach 60fps.

If you look at the way Sony talked about the Pro, it was based on the fact that the games themselves are not CPU limited games on the PS5 and can offer a 60fps mode - albeit with Graphical concessions. The PS5 Pro, with more Graphical Processing as well as AI upscaling, means that you don't have to sacrifice quite so much image quality. Instead of dropping to 720p with FSR's ugly Upscaling algorithm adding unwanted instability and/or artefacts just to give a 60fps mode on PS5, on PS5 Pro, that may well be 1080p with higher Visual settings (inc higher RT) and PSSR upscaling so a much better looking 60fps. Last of Us 2, Spider-Man etc have 60fps modes on PS5 so not CPU limited.

However, if GTA6 is a 30fps 'ONLY' game on PS5 - because its CPU limited to 30fps on PS5 - then its 'unlikely' to have a 60fps mode on PS5 Pro. It would need to be able to run at 55fps at least on a PS5 to run at 60fps on a PS5 Pro - and don't forget, a lot of 'performance' modes don't offer RT or if they do, its often low quality and supported by Traditional methods - like Screen Space Reflections, Shadow Maps etc. Therefore many of these are already not using CPU resources for RT in performance modes - hence why they say that you won't have to sacrifice as much IF the game is able to run at 60fps on PS5.

What I am saying, as is the likes of Digital Foundry and other Tech Experts, is that IF, not that anyone really knows yet, GTA6 is only a 30fps game on PS5, then it's 'unlikely' to have 60fps on PS5 Pro - but if GTA6 maybe has a 'Performance' 60fps mode - even if it is 720p with FSR and NO/very limited Ray Tracing, then the PS5 Pro could well offer a better looking 60fps mode, one that may have a higher starting resolution, maybe 1080p, one that may not have to sacrifice RT and one that will be using AI Upscaling to look much more like its running at 'native' 4k/60fps.

It 'almost' has to have the ability to run at 60fps on PS5, it has to have a performance mode on PS5. If its only 30fps on PS5 due to CPU limitations, then the exact same CPU in PS5 Pro, albeit slightly faster, will have the same issue. If it drops to 45fps on PS5 because of the CPU, it will still drop on PS5 Pro to around 49/50fps - which maybe enough to keep it in the VRR window if you have the right display.

GTA has 'always' been a 30fps game on Console and are often very CPU intensive. Therefore, if they cannot release GTA6 with a '60fps' performance mode on PS5, then chances are, you won't get a 60fps mode on PS5 Pro because the CPU will be limiting. Fortunately, we've had many games that do have Performance modes because they were also targeting at least 30fps on Last gen hardware and their significantly more limited CPU's. The point being that there is a bigger leap in CPU resources between last gen PS4/Pro hardware and PS5 than PS5 and PS5 Pro to enable older games to run at 60fps on newer hardware.

So in summary, if the game is CPU limited on PS5, the SAME game on PS5 Pro will also be CPU limited. 30fps to 60fps is reducing the Frame time in half, a massive drop in 'time'. If it the PS5 CPU takes 25ms then the PS5 Pro CPU would take 22.5ms to do the SAME work. If you listen to Mark Cerny, he states that people are choosing low res, FSR upscaled 60fps modes over 'Quality' 75% of the time and the PS5 Pro is 'designed' to make the 'Performance' mode look much more like the Quality mode so if GTA6 has a Performance mode on PS5, it will look better on PS5 Pro. If the PS5 drops a few frames at 60fps, chances are, it will be more stable on PS5 Pro. If the PS5 can offer a 55fps+ performance mode, then the Pro will be able to offer a 'better' looking and/or smoother 60fps experience - but if its CPU limited to 30fps on PS5, it will almost certainly be limited on PS5 Pro too - even if it offers an 'unlocked' mode - it may end up around the 40fps mark...

@CJD87 Not a mistake. Just completely unneeded. If you want better graphics and such, that's what the next generation is supposed to be for. Not mid-gen upgrades 3 or 4 years into every console life cycle. "Yes, I got the new PlayStation! Oh, crap, in 3 or 4 years there will be an even better one. I miss the days of 6-8 year console life cycles..."

There was a legit reason for the PS4 Pro, and that was the rise of 4K. Here it's just a money grab imo that people with a lot of money will happily buy, but for others that don't it's fairly out of reach. The new tech in the PS5 Pro could've just been saved and upgraded for the PS6, rather than making people pay $810 if you want the console, a disc drive, and a stand that should come standard in the box since all PS5's are marketed as being vertical.