Topic: Final fantasy discussion thread

Until recently I'd always prefer a turn based battle system over real time combat but I've begun to change my mind. I still enjoy turn based but the novelty of the system tends to run its course with me long before I see the credits, where as a real time combat system can be engaging for the duration of the game. The only recent exception I can think of is Divinity which I found engaging start to finish.

Having said that I would like to see some more of the features allowed by a turn based system introduced or better implemented into real time combat.

@KratosMD i agree, Square marketed the game not only to fans but to people who had never played FF before and it worked (it even says when the game boots up that it's a Final Fantasy for fans and new players)

now i love the turn based FF's too but i also enjoy action RPG's and i loved FFXV and i'm also happy that Square are willing to try new things and NOT stick to, lets be honest a old stale system, which people would also moan about if they used it as they would say "they wasn't doing anything new"

they get complaints if they change and they get complaints if they don't, i don't think Square can win

@kyleforrester87 i fell the closest game for that was the Kingdom Hearts series

@FullbringIchigo Yeah maybe, I dunno that still doesn't feel right to me. I love Platinums combat mechanics and while Niers was weak in places it was more engaging for me than Kingdom Hearts (and so much better than FF15s).

@kyleforrester87 Having said that I would like to see some more of the features allowed by a turn based system introduced or better implemented into real time combat.

Yup my thoughts exactly. The wait mode in 15 was hamfisted to say the least but I still used it a fair bit.

@KratosMD but it doesn't prove anything. There's a multitude of reasons previous games sold less, gaming wasn't as mainstream, piracy was rampant and you had a stigma attached to RPGs.

Ive been reading up on square for years and they had a business strategy to move away from its core single player strategy to the focus on online stuff. This business switch started when Wada took over when his boss stepped down and final Fantasy series creator Sakaguchi left about 13/14 years ago, this all happened before ff12 released.

They decided to move away from turn based game play as Wada believed most people disliked turn based game play and the future was online real-time play, on reading all of these articles it became apparent he was making it up as he went along with very little to back that up other than Wadas personal opinion. So the decision was made to focus on action orientated games and at that point the evolution of turn based RPGs came to an end. Suffice we ended up with this no man's land of barely similar sequels in 12/13/14 and 15 as they are still trying to find that final Fantasy feel.

I think my own opinion is that in a world we're action games have bullet time / reflex mode / freeze commands it seems obvious that turn based done well still have a place at the AAA table. The fact Square Enix jumped on the mmo and action bandwagons was a self fulfilling prophecy for turn based games to look worse in retrospect. No fps or third person games from 2003 look anything like their modern day counterparts and that would have been the case with turn based combat if final Fantasy continued its course.

Edit)

I've just rechecked total sales final Fantasy 15 sits at under 5 million sold on to consumers.

Final Fantasy 10 (turn-based) is a smidgen under 15 million. Followed by Final Fantasy 7 then Final Fantasy 8 in the top 3 best ever selling Square Enix games both selling double ff15. This is with piracy etc being crazy high on both ps1 and PS2 chipped consoles. Surprisingly final Fantasy 9 sold more than final Fantasy 12 although it was released at the back end of the PS1 era too. So that debunks the 'people prefer real-time over turn-based games' theory.

@KratosMD that figure was correct as of May 2017. The figure you refer to in the polygon article was copies sold on to retailers I'm referring to the copies bought by consumers.

@KratosMD your point was that people prefer real time games over turn based games and it's not correct, there are examples away from Final Fantasy which tell us this. Namely Pokémon one of the best selling games of all time and Civilization one of the best selling games on PC ever.

My reply to your comment originally wasn't to have a go at you, as I actually agree that I quite like FF going down the real time route. I also agree that real-time is more welcoming to new players. I also agree that if people want turn based then you have bravely default and a massive list of other jrpgs like persona for turn based fans to play.

But the change to real time post ff10 hasn't been this huge success I keep hearing and reading about. It's not true. It's a made up story fabricated by Squeenix as they marched to be the Disney of the game world. The change to real time all the time came about because of Wada, he orchestrated the companies action only policy and its no surprise now he's gone we are seeing more turn based games from them. He envisioned and aimed to be the biggest entity in gaming and played Guinea pig with its biggest franchise and binned the guy who put the game on the map.

Every release whilst he was in charge has failed to sell as many as Ff10, 7 or even 8. That's a fact.

Your a huge p4g fan so you know that this is a daft argument anyway. And your point can't possibly stand up If the original numbers shifted to shops didn't even end up in people's homes :/

@KratosMD fair one, I stand by my longstanding issue that turn based games could have seen an evolution, playing through Knights of the old republic opened up loads of possibilities which could have been used better within a FF game. But either way they never did that and went a bit mental with the franchise pulling it from its roots. We will carry this on in 2021 and don't think I've forgotten about our sonic mania challenge

What I want from FF16.

A 6 character roster
A great world spanning story
Proper Summons
A cohesive story with a proper beginning, middle and end
Deeper RPG mechanics
Tabata to take charge throughout
Proper Moogles
Girls in the crew
Cure spells and spells that work
More tactical options during fights
Less hunts, frog searches and goth clothing
Worse hair
A character to join later in the game
More steampunk
Way more orchestral anthems

@themcnoisy Personally I can't stand Turn Based combat. I think it had its place when real time combat used too many resources and would have limited the game size, story etc. To compare something like FFxv with something like FF7 or one of the other FF turn based games is also wrong. FF7 was at the height of the Final Fantasy series and more recent releases have been generally regarded as some of the low points (xii and the 'sequels/spin-offs') so trying to sell FFxv - especially with its known performance issues after some of these was never going to be easy.

Question is though, will the remake of FF7, as I believe its using real time combat, be regarded as a Success?

To me real time combat seems the natural evolution for a series like FF. Obviously the graphics have come a long way as has the audio so the natural progression would be into real time combat for the more immersive experience. Anyway that's my opinion - not that I play FF anyway

@themcnoisy @BAMozzy @KratosMD The obvious problem with real time combat is that you can't act as a "hive mind" to effectively control a team of characters. Equipping abilities and priorities for computer controlled allies just isn't as fulfilling as controlling them directly, but this is obviously impossible with real time combat . The joy of a good turn based battle system is building on a strategy throughout a combat scenario - both reactively and proactively - and seeing your well planned moves play out in your favour. The big problem with turn based combat is it very often isn't as engaging as this, and devolves to mashing X to attack with absolutely no strategy involved. This is why I've no beef with FF7 moving over to a real time system. Again, the very best and most engaging turn based systems right now are in games like Divinity and X-com, but these are a bit different to the "everyone stand in a line" approach.

As real time combat systems get better and better it makes the loss of having direct control over your entire party more palatable, and they might be able to get to the point where the pros completely eradicate the cons eventually.

On a personal note I'll always love traditional turn based combat and hopefully they keep making games that use this system but I am not blind to the fact it's not going to win over many new fans at this point.

@kyleforrester87 I can see your PoV but I just find it slow and boring and really takes all the immersion away. Just stand there, take a hit, wait for the next enemy to take their hit etc, then finally put in your 'attacks' wait for that to play out whilst they stand there etc etc.

Its not like you can't issue orders, or just let your 'squad' do what they do best. Mass Effect had real time combat and you can issue commands quickly and let them do what they do - as if you were actually working with squad mates. I wouldn't like to be in a 'battle' with a squad and have to tell each one what 'attack' or defensive move, shouldn't need to tell them to provide 'medical' assistance for a colleague etc but expect them to use their own initiative unless specifically ordered to a zone to cover/fight - i.e. like ordering one to take out enemies on the left, one to take out the right side enemies and leave me to take out those in the middle or maybe target a 'specific' enemy first, like a armoured 'mini' boss or gun emplacement so you can more easily pick off the lower tier enemies.

Combat can be more than just bashing a button - as games like Dark Souls, Witcher 3, Bloodborne etc prove if we are talking about melee combat rather than ranged. You have various dodge/roll mechanics as well as blocking and light/heavy attacks too. Learning the enemies attack patterns/tells, knowing when to block/roll/dodge, whether you can get in and perform a heavy/light attack, trying to use the environment to your advantage - like high ground or using some obstacle or cover to block their attack or goad them into a 'trap'. Some of these games also have 'special' abilities (like the Witchers Signs) or bombs/grenades so not that different from picking a few options and waiting for those to play out in turn based combat. The difference though is you don't feel cheated because your 'super' attack 'missed' for no reason or powerless to avoid taking damage because you just stand there waiting for your turn. I find it far more immersive and more strategic than turn based combat ever can. Its hardly 'strategy' to pick a move from a set list and hope its 'successful' - its hardly reactionary to your opponent - its at most guessing whether you think they may attack (so use a defensive move) or using an attack and hope they haven't opted to block. In real time you can use 'strategy' to either block, dodge, roll to avoid their attack and get into a decent position to counter and attack yourself. The games I play are never just bashing a button - the equivalent of always picking the light/quick attack option in turn based combat.

Each to their own of course but for me Turn based combat is a very dated mechanic and something I am happy to see go - like text only, point and click, speech bubbles instead of spoken dialogue, on rails gaming etc etc.

Incidentally, I can't stand Pokemon either! It certainly wasn't help by one of my kids becoming obsessed with it...

@BAMozzy All I can say is it's like the difference between a Command and Conquer game where you control every unit or one where you set simplistic prescribed conditions to the rest of your army (be defensive, be offensive, get money etc) and then run around as one tank for the rest of the game.

Perhaps FIFA is another good example, just controlling 1 player while the rest of the team is all automatic.

Now they can make it really really fun for the player even if you are just controlling one tank or one player, but still this loss of the rest of the team is a shame. So they just need to find better ways to make your involvement with the rest of the team more engaging while still retaining the excitement you get of just controlling one unit.

They are getting there

But a good turn based system shouldn't ever be boring. Unfortunately a lot of them can be.

Which is a better Vita game, World of Final Fantasy or Final Fantasy 10?

@Wesker Wish I could answer that one fully! I have played the demo for WOF though and I didn't think much of it. So for what it's worth, and knowing the franchise, I'd say 10.

@kyleforrester87 Thanks. I've heard good things about 10 on Vita, but WOF seems to have come and gone without much of a splash. FF10 for £15 should be worth a punt.

@Wesker Without a doubt. Having played it a couple of times there's sections I can't be bothered to do anymore (namely every temple) which makes it hard for me to play again, but there are some awesome moments that you'll enjoy all the more going in fresh.

@kyleforrester87 Games like C&C though are not a good example. Yes you can order a unit to attack a certain objective, and another unit to farm resources in a certain area whilst another small unit is exploring the map to find more resources and the enemy base but its not like you 'take turns' to order each individual unit to fire or perform a defensive unit - they at least have the ability to shoot at any 'enemy' that is within range in real time - hence its a real time strategy game.

With Fifa, you may control one 'person' but its one person at a time and then jump to the next if the ball is at their feet or in their zone. You can set certain strategies for each player when they are controlled by AI. Whether the Left/Right back join the attack as more 'wingers' or hold their more defensive position. I believe you can also have different team strategies you can change on the fly, like play defensive to hold on to a lead or play more attacking as a team. What you aren't doing is waiting for the AI player(s) too get the ball to the one specific player you happen to be controlling. You are always in the thick of the action, playing anyone of the 11 players in your team. Its rarely ever turn based - although those deciding Penalty Kicks in cup competitions are close to be Turn based like you deciding where to kick the ball or dive whilst the AI is picking where they will dive or kick the ball and take turns either kicking or saving. Fifa and PES generally have quite good AI so they play like a team and you also play the part of 'manager' too and can adjust strategies on the fly, change formation, change the AI behaviours of an individual or the team so they 'play' the strategy and behave as if they were 'controlled' by another 'capable' human. As soon as the ball leaves the feet of the player you were controlling, control though jumps to the 'closest' team-mate and you take over that person. Its still real time though and much better than 'Subbuteo'!

@kyleforrester87 Cool. Hope to enjoy Blitzball at the very least.

@themcnoisy That is an excellent list for FFXVI, not that hard to come up with one, is it? Will they do it? Hell no.

@Wesker Aha Blitzball is...an acquired taste. (I loved it!)