Topic: Is Sony losing favor with gamers?

While current events may have a small impact on the PlayStation brand, I don't think their position has particularly weakened over the other console makers. For me I think consoles in general are losing their grip on the gaming market. We no longer see the glut of exclusives that made them so desirable to own over a PC, while the PC is now able to enter the living room pretty simply and take the traditional place of the console under the TV. Sony have even said they see the Pro as competition for the PC and not other consoles.

Without the exclusives and with more regular hardware releases (I expect this more regular hardware refresh to become the norm now) I would expect most people who game on a PC will now shy away from further console purchases. I also expect PSNow to become a much more comprehensive library, with new games added as they release in the future, which will attempt to gain back some of the customers they are going to lose due to changes in their business model. I also expect more people to move to PC as the old argument for gaming on a console disappears, the one of getting a device that is going to be top tier for 5-6 years without upgrading.

@Dichotomy: I don't know about that, both PS4 and X1 are still tracking higher then their predecessors so there's still huge demand for consoles, especially PlayStation due to said exclusives, a more recognizable brand and the simplified nature consoles have over PC.

Well this is true - and if we've learned [b]nothing else[/b] from the American election season, its that there is no such thing as bad press...

@adf86: Going on my feelings and that of other PC users I know, and two people who are console only, the Pro (and Scorpio) has basically meant we've decided to call it a day when the PS4 is put out to pasture. I'll see out this cycle as I already have the PS4 and I'll see what Nintendo do with the NX (I'm not overly hopeful tbh), but it seems relatively pointless to me to own an Xbox or Playstation anymore. It might be an age thing (we are all veteran gamers going back to the C64 days and earlier), with the PC users saying they'll stick with PC and the console only ones debating whether it is retro or nothing from now on. As for exclusives, about 3 years in and, off the top of my head, I can name only two exclusives on PS4 that I'd wish I could play, namely Bloodborne and Uncharted 4. I couldn't move for exclusives on older consoles, so that is why I made that comment and stick by it.

I know it has been mentioned that people who follow gaming this closely are in the minority, but we are also the ones who buy lots of games each year - while the people who couldn't care less buy maybe Fifa and/or CoD. Nintendo learnt that lesson with the Wii, you can sell more hardware than anyone, but without games sales to back it up you won't make (as) much money. So we are a very important 5 or 10%. Even if people like me only equate to 1% of console sales, we are still important as we make Sony lots more money by purchasing a game or two a month instead of the same in a year.

The entire Pro thing is something of a nightmare really - if power is that important then you should wait for the Scorpio. If it isn't then, as you say, given the sales of the PS4 to date it seems a weird decision to release an upgraded console. It almost feels like Sony were scared of analysts predictions of the death of consoles so tried to mix it up, but in doing so it might lead to a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts. Probably won't, but I still think it will lose more profits than create them in the long run - will at least give me an interesting read.

@Dichotomy: From my perspective, as a veteran gamer, I don't want a PC by choice. I grew up on computer gaming too with the BBC model b, Vic 20, Amstrad CPC464 to name a few. I had a few consoles in the early days and in the early 90's I was gaming on PC primarily. That was until the N64 and PS1 era.

Since then I have shifted to console. I have also moved to Laptops - primarily because of space as I don't have room for the 'traditonal' PC set up of desk and monitor. I know I could possibly build a PC for around £300 but I doubt I could build a 'decent' PC for that! Why £300, well that's the cost of the Prp minus the new controller. Of course then I would need to buy Win10 OS and I know that I wouldn't be happy with a lot of the parts. I could of course invest a lot more too. Imagine if I bought last years Titan X, this year I could have spent a lot less and just bought the GTX1070 instead. Of course I could buy the GTX1080 (or better). Whilst I know that next year a new range of more powerful options will be available to give games a bit more frames at the highest resolution/settings. I also then enter the world of hacking/modding as well as competition with other PC gamers - with my rig is better than yours and all the 'nerdy' talk.

Consoles are 'simple'. So they may not have the 'best' graphics/frame rates but they have a simplicity and convenience that PC's don't. That doesn't stop me from wanting the 'best' a console can offer. It also hasn't stopped others buying consoles for what ever reason. In (less than) 3 years, Sony and MS have sold more consoles than they managed in the first 3 years of last gen. Combined they have sold nearly as much as the PS3 or XB360. Console game sales also dominate the market. SW:BF sold nearly 60% on PS4, Nearly 40% on XB1 with PC's accounting for 2%. Games that are known for PC's, like Witcher, Battlefield, can't match consoles for game sales.

You talk about 'power' as if its the ONLY factor. Its not. Whilst you maybe able to play Xbox One exclusives if you have a Win10 PC - only a Win10 PC - yet another MS product, you can't play Sony's exclusives. If you look at what MS are trying to do, they are trying to unite the Win10 gaming community with its Xbox community, merging it into one. If you are still on Win8 (or earlier) then you don't get any of this - so its NOT all PC's.

The increase in power to Sony's PS4 isn't game changing but it is moving a 3yr old console into the next generation of TV's. It will of course have benefits to those on 1080p TV's. In essence its not that different from a PC gamer buying a new GPU to go with their mew 4k monitor. Whilst its not as powerful as Scorpio, its powerful enough to make a difference and act as a 'half way' step between old (PS4) and new (PS5). The Scorpio is more than just an XB1 on steroids. Whilst it will play XB1 games, its also adding new features/games that the XB1 won't have - VR for example. Unlike the PS4 Pro, games can have 'extras' that XB1 owners can't benefit from - things like Rise of the Tomb Raiders VR level, RE7 in VR as these things are also available to PS4 owners too. You can bet that some games won't get features or even come to the XB1 as well. In a years time, the 1.4tf of the XB1s isn't going to be powerful enough let alone 2years time - a year into Scorpios life. I doubt MS will make a 6tf console and restrict it like the PS4 Pro is to the PS4.

Sony recently said they expect to sell 20m units by the end of the financial year. If they manage that, that would make their sales in just over 3yrs hit around 65m units. That's well on the way to eclipsing the total of last gen. Its not weird to me that Sony have opted to bring out a mid term upgrade to be at the forefront of new technology - such as 4k HDR TV's and of course VR. Like I said, I know its not the biggest leap in terms of power and won't meet the full specs of these (i.e not native 4k in most games) but its still a step up without being too powerful that it essentially is wasted by being restricted to the PS4 or worse, leaves the PS4 behind. Its not too powerful that when Sony do release the PS5, people see no reason to upgrade and not too weak that it doesn't offer anything significant either.

Its not as if Sony has just focussed on hardware as E3 showed a number of games expected in the next year or so. That didn't include a number of games that we know we could see soon too. If Sony truly believed console gaming was on the way out, they wouldn't be investing so heavily into the console space - things like games exclusively for consoles, VR headsets and games, upgraded hardware for 'gamers' etc

What you are also neglecting to mention is that the PC has a lot more games too. Individual game sales cannot match the individual game sales on console but with so many more titles - not necessarily 'new' AAA games but new indie/arcade style as well as the fact a lot of games from last generation (and older) are still available and playable too. Steam often has 'sales' of last gen games that are not available to 'new' gen console owners - not unless they are available on BC or have been remastered. Its unlikely they are on BC as only 60 AAA games are - most are indie/arcade titles so far. Basically it boils down to having a much wider library because PC's are not restricted by 'generations' but as far as 'individual' game sales are concerned, they often sell more to console owners. This is evident too in Lobby sizes - number of gamers online in the MP section. Part of MS's merging Win10 and Xbox is to help boost lobby sizes and the quality of MP - making it easier to find players in the games you want, when you want and chances are more local and therefore better 'ping'.

@KratosMD: Oh, come on - you're going to need to be more specific there. Exactly what "stinks" about the PS4 experience right now?

@KratosMD: Exactly you hit the nail on the head in your first parargraph. Sony back with PS3 had to try hard to get the non Sony fanbase back to them after the initial launch of the PS3. The PS2 was a huge success caused them to think that they could do anything and gamers would flock to them. I see what they were doing with having the PS3 with a Blu-ray player. They were hoping the same thing would happen with Blu-rays that happen with DVDs when the PS2 was announced. Still the price of a launch PS3 was bad.

Now as you pointed out due to Mattrick's stupidity MS has that problem this gen so Sony believes it can sit back and relax and not have to worry. I am remembered by the story of the tortoise and the hare. You can probably guess which one I see as what.

@Tasuki: But in what way is Sony "sitting back and relaxing" right now? I feel like I live in an alternate universe sometimes: they're first to the punch with virtual reality, they're first to the punch with a mid-gen hardware refresh, and as @KratosMD admits, they're delivering "wonderful exclusive games".

I mean... If this is sitting back and relaxing, then we have a different definition of the phrase.

EDIT: And to add to that, people can whinge about their TGS press conference, but they were the only manufacturer out of the big "three" to have one. Does that mean the other platform holders are "sitting back and relaxing" because they didn't even try? Y'know — it's madness.

You absolutely should hold Sony to a very high standard, and you absolutely should expect more all the time. But this insinuation that Sony's resting on its 40 million install base and twiddling its thumbs is the most ludicrous insinuation I see around the web — they're launching three new pieces of hardware this holiday!

This.... sounds like a challenge....

.....because the internet has a lot of ludicrous.

Touche!

You know what I mean, though. People can discuss whether they think PS4 Pro is the right product or whether virtual reality is relevant or even whether the PS4 Slim is good value for money... But at the end of the day, you can't criticise Sony for sitting around doing nothing when they have all three products ready to go this Christmas. And I've used two out of the three of them extensively, and wouldn't describe either of them as low-effort products.

In comparison, we've seen a 60 second Scorpio trailer and the NX has only really been mentioned in investors briefings. Y'know... It's ridiculous.

@get2sammyb: Three new pieces of hardware?? Maybe 2 I wouldn't really count the slim as "new" hardware and as VR goes, yeah it's impressive but honestly I still think it's a flash in the pan. I am getting the same vibe from PSVR as I did with the Move and Kinect, but maybe that's me.

It seems that they are too worried about what's next and being the first rather then keeping the people they have happy. Maybe give some of your PS+ members a launch title AAA release as part of the free games. Release external HD support for the PS4 those kind of things. It seems to me anyway that they don't really worry about customer retention.

@Tasuki: But the conversation is not whether virtual reality is a flash in the pan or not — it's whether they're moving forward or resting on what they've got. Your previous comment suggested that they're "sitting back and relaxing" — I'm sorry, but if they were sitting back and relaxing they wouldn't be bothering with PlayStation VR, PS4 Pro, or even the PS4 Slim. And yet they are, and they're delivering it all this holiday. At a time, I'd hasten to add, when their competition don't really have anything ready to go.

Like I say, I feel like I'm living on a different planet sometimes. Putting Killzone: Shadow Fall in the PlayStation Plus lineup and unlocking external HDD support should not take precedent over any of the initiatives that they are driving this holiday. The mere suggestion is madness...

Should they do those two things you mentioned anyway? Absolutely. But c'mon — credit where credit's due, we just got a great firmware update this week...

I just don't understand! You people are insane!

I don't get external HDD support as a request. It would be slow enough to really affect load times, then people would blame PS for bad load times. An external HDD would basically be only useful as a giant USB stick... If I were Sony's PR department, I would forbid it.

@Kidfried: Both consoles aren't doing better because of Nintendo because their market has proven to be far different from what most people want from higher end gaming experiences.
Yes PC has gotten stronger but when we mean PC we mean Steam and there lies a big problem if consoles go away because it hands Valve a monopoly in the core gaming space that will set the industry back years. The industry can only continue to grow through various platforms to game, whether it's PC, console or mobile. Besides major publishers need consoles anyway because that's where their sales are plus it makes it easier to market games to consoles then a PC client.
@tasuki Last gen Sony were accused of copying trends with things like PS Move etc, but this gen they haven't been reactionary in the slightest, they've had their own path and goals in mind plus are launching pieces of hardware ahead of their biggest competitors so I don't know where this perceived notion that they are resting on their laurels comes from. Aside from people who just want Sony to mess up regardless so they jump on the slightest little negative story. You only need to see this site's comments whenever a Plus article goes up.

@BAMozzy: Firstly, thanks for the lengthy response, I like seeing things from other people's perspectives. I'm going to try to address all your points, but if I missed anything you think I'm just avoiding, let me know and I'll address that too as, chances are, I just got lost in my ramblings

OK, I'll start with the price of the PC thing. You say £300 to build a PC because of the controller (I'd argue that a controller can be picked up for £35 if you looked around, but that is nitpicking I guess). The important point you miss about PC gaming is it may have a higher initial outlay for something classed as good (£500-600 would be enough to get you something that ran everything at 1080p/60fps med-high settings and would certainly be more powerful than the Pro), but the cost once you are up and running is significantly cheaper. Let's hypothetically say that you buy 12 game per year and the Pro has a top tier life span of 3 years. Finding games at £10+ cheaper on PC than console is normal so 12*10*3=£360 saving. Now PC also has free online which is another 3*40=£120 cheaper. Without anything else you've paid £480 less for gaming on PC, so even if your initial outlay was £600, you are still £230 better off after 3 years. If a new PS console launches in 3 years for £350, just pop in a new £250 graphics card and you'll be fine for the next 3 years too at £100 cheaper now. A lot of people who don't know that much about PC gaming seem to think you have to upgrade every year and replace everything, but you really don't and this PC will stay relevant for 6 years easily with a single upgrade.

Consoles are 'simple' is something that applied when you had to watch for bending your pins on you motherboard, or follow a detailed manual to figure out where to place power connectors, now building a PC is about as hard as putting a few pieces of Lego together. If even that is too much work, then you can buy pre-assembled units to fit your needs that are plug-n-play. You can even use sites like GOG to buy older games that are ready optimised to play on today's hardware/OS.

I fully expect PSNow to offer a service a bit like Amazon Video in the future, a sub for older games that cycle in and out of the collection and the option to buy games for a one off fee and play whenever. It might take 5 years or even a bit more, but I expect it to happen eventually. Sony make little to no money on console sales (it is a tradition to take a loss on hardware as they recoup the money through software sales), so selling through a streaming service to practically any device will eventually become far more profitable, especially when the likes of EA, Ubi Soft et al come up with their own software to do the same and no longer need a middle man to act as a platform for their games (of course if someone was already doing it for a reasonable price they may be persuaded to use their service instead). It may take a decade, but it will happen eventually.

I doubt console generations will exist in the way they used to. While you could argue that the Pro is being released due to the fact that the basic PS4 was pretty underwhelming from a power point of view, it is also easy to see the Pro is not a 4K console - it may use fancy tricks to upscale, but nothing complex is going to run in full detail and well on it. Instead we are likely seeing the beginning of a new tactic to release consoles more regularly with incrementally higher power, with perhaps the option in the future to release more than one variant of the console at the same time to cater to what people want. The move to x86 architecture also paves the way for backwards compatibility between devices with very little effort, meaning it is easier to sell iterative console upgrades as opposed to entirely new systems.

My fear with the Pro release is that we may find the basic PS4 games are no longer optimised as well as they can be by studios - we all see some remarkable feats towards the end of any console generation based on programmers being very familiar with the hardware. This is one area a PC falls down, games are designed on the most powerful hardware and scaled back (through options) to work on more modest set-ups. Why any programmer would try to get the most out of the PS4 when they develop their games now for the Pro seems questionable. All the advertising footage and screenshots will be from the more powerful version so there is no need to pump extra resources into the lesser version to make it the best it can be.

How many of the 20m units of PS4 will be new users though? As I've said, profits are more linked to game sales than console sales. As for game releases, I never go on what is coming out - you will end up disappointed if you do that, I go for what is there. I hope they release lots of (deserved) blockbusters in the next year, but this has mainly been a generation of disappointments and remasters so far so my expectations are pretty low.

Everything though is from my perspective, and if you take nothing else from my viewpoint then take the fact I am a PS4 owner, I have played on console a lot since the PS1 (much like you) and I feel like I am done with them. I love games - I mean I spend way too much time playing them and consoles filled a part of that love, but I don't feel it is sustainable in the direction they are taking. I don't care about the power of them (if I did I wouldn't argue against the Pro), I liked they were something different than my PC - that feeling has changed with the Pro (and Scorpio) and, despite them being a part of my life for about 20 years, I am one person who is dropping them this generation. I'm sure there are others who have similar views, but I hope anyone who sticks with them has a great time - it just is the wrong direction for me.

@Mega-Gazz: How do you figure that out? On XB1 it can improve loading times. USB3.0 has a higher transfer rate than SATA II and is limited by the speed of the drive and read rates. If you have a 'faster' external HDD, you can actually see an improvement over loading times. I believe the speed of the internal is 5400rpm so in theory a 7200rpm could improve loading times as it does on other systems - like PC. XB1 and possibly the WiiU too - although I haven't got a WiiU to check myself.

I was assuming they be looking at the whole spectrum of devices out there not just USB 3/newer/faster.

Also, I wasn't thinking security before but external HDDs are a vector to install non-sanctioned patches or cracks or mods or even just an unintentional vector for malware to infect the system, a door they may want to keep closed.

Anyhow I don't get why this feature is so often requested.

@Dichotomy: As someone who moved to a laptop because I have NO space for a desktop, I don't have any components to build a PC around. I could use my TV as a monitor but to a degree, I feel that in using a desktop in the same way as a console kind of defeats the object of having a desktop. I doubt I would use it as a PC as I often have my TV on whilst browsing. Maybe in terms of components, I can buy a PC and the OS (Win 10) for £600 that runs at 1080p comfortably but I have a 4k HDR TV and want 4k (or at least higher than 1080p) HDR gaming. I am buying a Pro for £350 knowing it will offer the best console gaming experience at resolutions above 1080p and with HDR and it will also play all my existing games too - some with enhanced visuals. My £40 PS+ subscription gives me 24 free games a year (I also have a PS3) but even if we just count the 12 PS4 games - assuming they are all £15 indie games - that's a minimum of £180 worth. I know that if I were to buy a £600 PC, I doubt the spending would stop there - A new CPU/GPU to play games in the optimum 4k/60 with max settings would be the aim and I know that would cost a LOT more than my PS4 gaming and then I would be concerned about others hacking or modding games to give them an advantage. There is always something better from a hardware perspective. At least in console terms, something better only comes round once in a while. It also fits better with my environment and to a degree, stops me getting carried away with spending money to get a few extra frames or better visual settings etc as I know if something better exists, I will want to get it. By not having a PC, I don't have that temptation - the only temptation I have is games and once in a while, a new console. A PC isn't going to deliver all the games I want to play either. Owning both a Xbox and Playstation gives me access to virtually all games I want.
I have nothing against PC's or PC gaming but I get what I want (mostly) from consoles. I know a PC may offer more pixels, higher frame rates (at a cost) but not necessarily the better option for me. That's why I embrace the upgrades and new consoles as it fits with what I want. It also enables me to play games with my family as they too have consoles.

@get2sammyb: Point taken. I think what it boils down too is are they doing things that interest you, and I mean you as the plural form. I guess if you are interested in VR, an upgrade PS4 or even a slim PS4 then they are holding favor with you, if not like myself then I guess yeah you would feel that they aren't doing nothing and losing favor. But yeah I can see where you're coming from.

I just one of those people that the technology hype bugs the heck out of me. I hate buying like a new TV or phone and having it be obsolete in a year or two. And that's how I see Sony and MS going where it comes to video games.