Topic: The TV Show Thread

You may not believe I wasted so much time on this but after Arrow ended I rewatched ... all of it.
I don't know really why I like this series so much.

@RogerRoger
The Master though. One of the few recurring Who villains who regularly actually does, or comes close to besting the Doctor. In fact, more often than not, classic Who included, The Doctor tends to need others to save him/her or defeat The Master.

The Master showing up always meant that something big was going to go down, The Doctor's intellectual equal and eventual frenemy.

While his story went right off the rails, John Simm's Harry Saxon run was some of the best new Who going.
Missy was great though - specifically, great for 12.

The Weeping Angels only count for their first appearance, they were cumulatively spoiled with each successive appearance!

@KALofKRYPTON I've not been keen on this season as a whole, but I did really enjoy the finale today. Great to see the Doctor in a dangerous situation up against some of her greatest enemies.

It probably helps that I'm terrible at guessing what's going to happen. I guessed they were going to defeat the enemy by making the Lone Cyberman remember his humanity, with it then aiding the Doctor and saving the day in a very tired and cliché manner (I thought the flashbacks in the previous episode were going to be about him). So I'm glad to be proven wrong here.

As for the "big reveal", I should have seen it coming, but like I say I'm bad at predicting these kinds of things.

@RogerRoger Heaven Sent is one of my favourites as well. Such a great episode, and Capaldi does an excellent performance as The Doctor.

Capaldi is also one of my favourite doctors as well. It's been too long since I've seen David Tennant's Doctor, so I can't say for sure which one I prefer, but it's probably Capaldi. Like you say Capaldi's episodes were complex and interesting, and he does a a great job as the lead role.

I'm surprised that you're not so keen on The Master, but that's fine, it would be boring if everyone liked the same things. The Master/Missy is my favourite of the Doctor's enemies. He's nearly as intelligent as The Doctor, and he's a serious threat. There's usually something horrifically bad unfolding when his plans come into action, and he often gets very close to succeeding as well.

@RogerRoger @crimsontadpoles Heaven Sent is one of the few episodes of Doctor Who in the last decade that I could say with certainty that it stands alone as a fantastic episode of TV. It’s well written, acted brilliantly and is hugely gripping. It’s a shame his run was quite spotty, its highs were really high.

@crimsontadpoles
It was alright wasn't it.
Still has a few 13 problems though.
Not really sure whether the whole thing was meant to feel insideous or not. The villains certainly, but The Master negating the Lone Cyberman really ruined that.
And what should have been the most significant villains 13 has ever faced were dealt with in true 13 fashion within a few seconds .

@RogerRoger Yeah, hoodie Simm was crap, the tapping stuff was crap too 😂

Looking forward to Season 3 of Castlevania this week. Also may give Season 2 of Altered Carbon a bash, as I enjoyed the first season although I found you really needed to pay close attention.

@RogerRoger I'm not a 'crier' for the most part. If Who was ever to bring me close, it's that last interaction with Missy. The dialogue on 12's part isn't even that good - but Capaldi and Gomez just sell such genuine emotion, that even if you weren't a fan of 12 or his run - that would move you.

Yeah. The Master. What a b***ard!

Good plan on not jumping straight in to 13. The drop in everything but budget would be jarring.

@RogerRoger Hahaha - I have very little Who tat. Though I have a very good recreation of Baker's 'first' style scarf - which is plenty!

That episode is a pretty good example of the that season as a whole. At the very best, you might come away from it thinking along the lines of 'that should have been better than it actually felt'.

I like JW, she's a good actor, I don't care that 13 is a woman - but she's not that great at being The Doctor. Whether it's the direction coupled with the scripts, I don't know. But it's usually pretty 'off' feeling, in a way I can't really say new Who has felt before.

There are decent episodes. But not many.

There are good ideas. But rarely realised very well.

@RogerRoger
I suppose a key thing is that, for all of the previous Doctors grandiose posturing, there was a usually a purposeful and and least competently directed delivery. Even every time the Doctor waxed lyrical on the merits or folly of the human race or the villainous machinations of whoever was about that week - it was part of what was going on.

With 13, JW usually seems like she's paused to give a lecture - no matter the situation. And make no mistake, the lecture is aimed at you, the viewer.

I saw a thing Peter Weller did once about direction and being directed on film; his point was about people being filmed in a moving car, with one actor being the driver. Weller was critical of the vast majority of classic cinema and shows that really fail to portray the supposed driver actually driving. The focus being usually on dialogue of the scene rather the fact that these are supposed to be people travelling somewhere.
He went on to talk about why someone is in any specific place in any specific scene; 'why is the character in that space? What are they doing there? Would they be in that space if not for this being a scene designed to deliver dialogue?' - I think he gave some examples, but it reminds me of 13's run quite a bit. There's a lot of movement through locations and scenes that seems entirely contrived and at odds with how people (The Doctor included) can reasonably be expected to behave. Couple that with the penchant for launching moral tirades towards the audience, it becomes off-putting.

@RogerRoger
As an aside, I've decided to make good effort at going the the 'Eighth Doctor Adventure books'. I've read a couple before, but I might try and do all 77(!).
Starting off with 'The Eight Doctors' - already noticed something that became canon through error and something that I fully expect to be expanded on in 13's next season

@KALofKRYPTON I've been struggling to define exactly why I was less keen on the 13th Doctor's run, but your posts sums up my feelings rather well.

Shows having moral lessons can work well if they're well-written, but it always works best when they're subtle with it. With the 13th Doctor, the moral lessons stick out like a sore thumb, partially because they feel directed towards the viewer. Being told about how humans are bad because of something or that this other thing is really bad can quickly break my immersion, and does damper my enjoyment of the show somewhat.

My other complaints are that there's too much of a focus on the companions' lives, and that there's too much focus on Earth (especially present day Earth) instead of travelling through time and space to various alien worlds. At times it can feel like a soap opera instead of a fun sci-fi adventure.

But most of my complaints are directed towards the writers. With the various other issues making things murky, it's hard for me to judge how good I think Jodie Whittaker is as the Doctor.

@RogerRoger More. There was another series too by Virgin books I think.
Also, as far as I know, none of the books or audio dramas are strictly canon. Think of it like how Disney treats the Star Wars EU.

@crimsontadpoles Well, many of the current writers are soap veterans, so there is that.

I'm actually OK with the companions this time around. Graham specifically. Bradley Walsh is great in his role. Ryan and Yaz largely just seem 'there' sometimes, I don't mind them on the whole, and no one has turned out to be cosmically important so far, which is refreshing for new Who.
I'd rather Yaz and Ryan were the ones leaving though. Or just ditch all three and pick up a companion from the future or an 'alien' or something.
Big companion rosters can work, but having them all from the same place and time and largely there for exposition in the guise of 'good guy' ignorance - it is a bit boring.
When 5 was travelling with Turlough, Nyssa and Tegan, they managed some great interplay; Turlough a potential traitor but scientifically adept, Tegen the ignorant-then contemporary human and Nyssa an alien from a technologically advanced planet.

I agree. JW feels hard to gauge. She has moments where it seems to click, but it does feel like it needs to click.
There are no real introspective moments or solo adventures for her either which doesn't help. While I've commented before about the saccharine sentimentality of new Who, the times when 9, 10, 11 and 12 were alone served up some great characterisation.

So far, I think it is almost fair to say that 13 is being treated nearly as badly as 6 (OK, that's a bit of a stretch).

My mom (bless her) loathes Bradley Walsh as a companion @KALofKRYPTON... She says his acting is stiff as a board and he doesn't seem to act any differently then if he was presenting The Chase 😂

I don't mind him myself (Or any of the companions really)... Probably would've been better if it was just one of them as a companion though.

Yaz in particular seemed to have nothing to do in most the episodes I saw of that first season with 13th doc. Ryan wasn't that great either but he had something usually besides twiddling his thumbs.

I was so hoping Jodie'd be good in the role too. Tbh I didn't think she was that great in Broadchurch (which is the only thing I'd seen her in prior but it has been a while since I watched it and I don't think she had much to do there?) but I was looking forward to her as I do with every new actor who takes up the mantle.

She felt pretty flat to me though as The Doctor. The awful dialogue and scripts not really helping her case especially with those messages as @crimsontadpoles mentions being about as subtle as a sledgehammer...

But I dunno... I think better writing would be a bit wasted on her too if I'm honest as I think her acting's a bit wooden. Maybe she's better in this newest series but... Yeah I'm not watching that

This Capaldi talk and @RogerRoger's talk in particular is making me want to try his second season... I didn't like the plots that much of his first season either (and urrrrgh don't get me started on Clara) but I thought he was alright as the doctor at least...

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy Verisimilitude!
He does well at coming across as a bloke in a situation rather than a narrative device.

You could be right; JW could just be out of her depth - but I do think she has the potential to be good in the role. There isn't much of a change in the second run for 13, other than some episodes being marginally better (and some, significantly worse).

Go for it for 12. Variable quality throughout his run and I get the feeling that the shooting order clashed with the trajectory of Capaldi's characterisation and direction, but it does get steadily better for the most part. I've always seen Clara as a bit of a millstone for 12 - but on a re-watch, she's better for 12 than she was 11. I was glad when BIll turned up though.

Mmm I might start from the begininng of Smith's run @KALofKRYPTON in fact as I kinda stopped halfway through his second season when it first aired. Can't remember why as I quite liked his first season and thought he was pretty decent!

I admittedly didn't like Tenant much when he took over from Ecclestone (Shame he's a plonker about it as I quite liked him in the role).

It was only on a rewatch a couple years back when I got a really good deal on series 1-4 of the new run that I'd completely changed my tune and really liked Tenant so hopefully the same can happen with Capaldi and Smith!

I, personally, was kinda hoping for someone like Eva Green for a female doctor... I thought she was fantastic in the series Penny Dreadful as Vanessa and I very much doubt we'd be questioning her acting chops unlike poor Jodie!

I mean the scripts'd still be pants... but at least we'd be blaming them only! 😂

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy
I took me a while to appreciate some of Tenant's stuff - again, soppy sentimentality ruins quite a lot of it. As well as the 'sonic screwdriver' fixes everything!

Ecclestone was given a bit of a bum-deal. The BBC essentially lied when he left/was forced out, and said that he was only intended for the first season and that it was totally his decision etc etc. It's only very recently that he's started talking about it.

I loved Penny Dreadful! And Eva Green is great in it too! What a terrible shame the last half of the final season was! She would be very good.

I'd have liked to have seen someone with a bit more presence than JW has so far. Katie McGrath, Lara Pulver - along those lines - or even an older, more commanding woman leading on from Capaldi. Someone along the lines of Charlotte Rampling.

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy well he is leaving in the special this year so your mum should be happy, so is Tosin with only Mandip staying so Yaz might actually get development next series

@RogerRoger
The Thrawn trilogy has the potential to make you scream at how inadequate the Disney trilogy is in comparison! The two afterwards aren't as good, but I never did read the most recent canon one.

Also, I'm very much enjoying The Eight Doctors so far. Nicely handled trip down memory lane - Venusian Aikido included! 😁

... Huh... I always assumed that he didn't wanna talk about it was down to him being embarassed with the role or something @KALofKRYPTON. That's really quite interesting from looking up about that.

I take back my extremely mild insult of plonker as he was beyond reasonable in this new light 😂

I've only seen Katie McGrath as Morgana in the BBC Merlin series (Well and that short role in Jurassic World) She'd certainly be interesting. I'm not familar with Lara Pulver but I know Charlotte Rampling for sure.

I'd not complain about any of them and I agree they'd no doubt have a stronger presence on camera

Ahh don't worry @RogerRoger! I'll either like it now or I won't. When I decide to do my annual "pay for Netlix for a month and catch up on what I want before ditching it til next year" I'll give Capaldi and Smith their chance to shine

Good to know @FullbringIchigo!