Topic: Nintendo Switch --OT--

@BAMozzy Obviously the casual sector is the biggest market - I mean, we see that in the sales chart. It isn't people like us on Push Square buying Fifa and GTA V every single week so if it sparks interest there, that will be the biggest demographic. I'd gently disagree with you a little on the point about the Switch and core gamers. Most friends and work colleagues are PC master race types who are often indignant about having to play consoles for exclusives but I know quite a few who like the idea of the Switch more than say, getting another console like PS4 or XB1 because it offers something different.

You are absolutely right that the Wii sold bucket loads and the majority of purchasers were either, I suppose, casuals or those who don't normally game. In my opinion, the Wii was held in contempt by significant numbers in the core gaming community who thought a lot of games on the console were just faddish or not optimal. If they did own the console, they were doing it for the Wii sports experience, not as a core gaming console. I think very few remember it as their favourite console and motion controls were shunned by a lot of gamers. I mean, the Wii was given away as a gift at the Carphone Warehouse when my wife got a phone upgrade - that's how I got mine.

The Wii U on the other hand, never really made it past the Nintendo fanbase who supported the console. It didn't really appeal to a lot of core gamers or a mass audience.

All anecdotal of course but I don't see that with the Switch. It feels like a return to pre-Wii era Nintendo in a lot of ways and the form factor makes sense. As said, I know several PC gamers who look down their nose at consoles who have bought a Switch or want to get one because they like the idea of playing games on the move or just dropping it in the dock when they want to have a bash on MK or something. It could also be a little bit of nostalgia, I think Nintendo have done very well over the last year to remind people they exist and that people have a soft spot for them and their games.

I personally think, and I could be totally wrong, that a lot of gamers are going to double dip and get this as a complimentary system to their PC, XB, PS4 etc. in a way they didnt with the Wii U or even, say, the 3DS. I also think you are right about the casual market - I think this has the opportunity to sell big and appeal in the same way the Wii did (probably not those numbers). My point is that I could see this hitting both demographics.

@Rudy_Manchego Anecdotal evidence too, but I see a lot more ''gamers'' interested in the Switch than casual gamers. One of my friends, and although he isn't the ''no 60fps/no 4K, no buy'' type of guy, he's willing to spend a few thousands on a computer rig, and he got the Switch before I did. It's different from the Wii. Especially since it's more of a handheld, it feels a lot more like a personal system than a ''family'' system. So I don't expect a lot of clueless moms and dads buying the Switch for their family like they did with the Wii.

@Octane Yeah, that is my experience too - one of my work colleagues has just spent like £700 or something on a graphics card but he also bought a Switch at launch because he likes Zelda and sitting with his GF on the couch playing.

I think it will crossover into the causal market but it will not be like the Wii. I still think that was lightening in a bottle - it was relatively cheap and affordable and got everyone in the room involved. I think most Wii's ended up gathering dust once the hype was over.

I can see the Switch being more popular with people who like to game but can't always use the TV or want to sit in bed and play some fun games. I think the whole MP thing is cool but I don't see that as the Switch's strength. I can see Mom and Dads buying the Switch to shut kids up or keep them in the room rather than shut in their room. Time will tell though, I have no data to back up that one!

I do think that the 'core' gamers are more likely to view this as a 'Handheld' and a big step up from any other Handheld on the market - something that can feed their passion when access to a TV/monitor may not be possible. Its that 'handheld' option though that is the biggest draw - mainly because if they want or have the opportunity to play Fifa/Skyrim etc on a 'big' screen, then they are more likely to play on the PS4/XB1/PC. That's not to say they might still play on a 'big screen' sometimes but its that portable aspect that appeals as you can't exactly play the others when TV/Monitor access is difficult or impossible. I can see parents buying the Switch because its versatile - a device the kids can play in the car or if their parents want to watch TV. Essentially buying it because its 'better' than the 3DS/Vita.

But I still see it as having a greater appeal to the casual/non-gamer - much like the Wii did. Maybe not to some sectors - like the 'elderly' or fitness fans who liked the appeal of Wii sports to compliment their lifestyle and/or improve their mobility. I think the Wii also had some appeal to core gamers - the unique motion control adding something to games like Monkey Ball as well as Mario Kart. Its not as if many gamers didn't grow up with Mario and Sonic and the Wii still had some great nostalgic games. I do feel though that when Sony and MS came out with their Motion based peripherals, that heralded the 'end' of the Wii and its 'unique' offerings. The motion based games though struggled to be anything more than 'casual/party/fitness' and showed its limitations too.

The WiiU didn't have that 'broad appeal' to non-gamers and the more casual market. I wouldn't be surprised if its biggest users were gamers that also owned another console. Because it wasn't unique and lacked power, the 3rd party games that were ported, were generally 'older' games that people had played on their other devices. Without having something 'uniquely different' - like the WiiU's motion or the Switches portability, it didn't give the owners much reason to double dip with these games which in turn put publishers off from porting other games only for those to not sell particularly well to justify the cost. This in turn also affected sales because without that support, WiiU owners had very few 'releases' and potential WiiU buyers wouldn't invest in a console that had 'few releases'.

The Switch is offering something 'unique' like the WiiU did at launch too. Gamers are more likely to 'double dip' with games like Skyrim, Wolfenstein etc because of the fact they can play these on the go. I can still see this having a bigger appeal to the 'non-gamers' and 'casuals' - the same demographic that jumped into the pokemon go hype for example and I think that will make up the majority of sales long term. I do think the Switch has a bigger appeal to 'core' gamers too because it offers them that opportunity to feed their passion away from a TV/Monitor, that 'unique' feature only the Switch can offer. As I said, I can see those gamers double dipping on games too because they can enjoy those games when out and about.

Point is, I am NOT denying that the Switch has 'appeal' to core gamers but the fact it has more appeal to the casuals and people that may not have time/opportunity to game at a fixed place often enough to justify the traditional 'console/PC' - the ones that may only game on a Mobile or Tablet as that fits in more with their lifestyle/schedule. I am certain that their are many more people that would fall into these categories and why I think they will make up the majority of Switch sales. Not every 'gamer' - whether PC, PS4 or XB1 want or can have multiple devices and I think these will almost certainly opt to stick with their current' device than trade in or buy a Switch. The fact it offers versatility in some areas will help it sell to some people, but its short comings will also prevent it from selling to others. Some families may still opt to buy the Sony or MS device because it offers a more wider array of media options - like a Bluray player for example and therefore be more 'beneficial' to more people in that household.

Its swings and roundabouts really and we are still in the honeymoon phase. We will just have to see how things develop and where it ends up in 2-3 yrs time. I still think it will have a larger 'casual' audience than those 'core' gamers - much that I hate to use those terms as they are meaningless in reality - I just don't know how better to put it.

I can see why 'core' gamers and why we know many that are 'double dipping' because that's the circles we move in. We may not know how many people who wouldn't consider themselves as 'core' gamers are interested in or have bought the Switch. These people are unlikely to be on forums, on our console friends lists etc so it maybe skewing our perspective too...

@BLP_Software The point I was making wasn't necessarily regarding whether or not we will come to see it as a success or not. A console is more than just sales alone in my opinion and also reliant on its library and support. I really can't say the the Switch is a 'success' or not at this stage, can't say that it will continue to be well supported from more than just 'Nintendo' or what the state of play will be in 2-3yrs time.

If Sony for example were to release a PS5 in Q4 2018 - not because the PS4/Pro are not selling well but because they are in a position to build a console better suited to the 4k HDR era, even if they haven't sold more than the PS3 or had as long a life-cycle there is no way that you can consider the PS4 to have been a failure. The same applies to Switch. There is no disputing that its had a successful launch and seems to be well supported at the moment but that doesn't mean it can sustain that momentum. I, again am not saying it can't maintain that either but you can't assess it after just a few months. You don't read the first Chapter of a book and immediately determine it to be the best work of literature. You don't watch act 1 of a movie or episode 1 of a series and award it an Oscar/Bafta. You don't expect a reviewer to base they entire score on playing the first 'half hour' or so of a game and in a similar way, I am not prepared to pass definitive judgement on the Switch.

Like I said, its certainly got off to a good start and it looks like its getting 'more' support than many expected it to. The fact we are seeing games like Doom and Wolfenstein 2 coming to it is more than many expected. I bet most thought it would get mostly last gen era games and maybe a few indie/arcade games at most. Whether or not its still getting the same AAA games that are on PS4/Xbox in 2-3yrs, we will have to see. It obviously can't cope with some games and/or features - like no map editor in Doom and only 30fps, not getting games like CoD or SW:BF so we don't know where it will be in 2-3yrs time, whether Devs are still prepared or able to port games to Switch or whether it will be similar to the WiiU in that 3rd party support disappears.

In 2-3yrs time, maybe the core gamers who now have Xbox 'X'/PS5's, much better PC's and 4k HDR TV's and that 'power' gap, with Mobiles and/or Tablets possibly also offering superior games/performance, whether the Switch still has the popularity, still selling units etc or gathering dust in peoples homes and those that loved it in the first few months, becoming disappointed with the support, the games and having a very different opinion.

Realistically you cannot look at a console and pass a definitive judgement on it in the first six months. You can state its been successful to date or not but there is still a long way to go and therefore we will have to wait and see. If you assessed the PS3 after its first 6months, you would have written it off but we all know how successful that console ended up being. We can't write off PSVR (or VR in general) either because Sony has only sold ~1.5m in nearly a year. Some may start slow and then gain momentum whilst others may start well but fade very fast so its not applicable to assess soething that's expected to have a 4/5yr+ life cycle after just a few months.

Just to reiterate, I am NOT saying that the Switch will or even could be considered a flop in 2-3yrs time. The only thing I was insinuating is that its far too early to assess its market demographic and in 2-3yrs time, it may well be easier to assess if its primary audience is the casual/non-gamer or whether its predominantly still appealing to gamers - assuming its still continues to be popular of course.

In terms of the games that we'll be getting/are currently getting, the Switch honestly feels a lot like the GameCube to me. Super great first party games that aren't really casual for the most part, and some pretty solid third party support so far. All it needs is an Animal Crossing and a proper Paper Mario in the vein of The Thousand Year Door, and it'll undoubtedly be my favorite Nintendo console of all time in terms of the library. (It probably will be once Odyssey comes out anyway, though)

It's already my favorite when it comes to the hardware, though. Big fan of the hybrid idea. I hope they continue with it, because it just works so well. Plus, then the "No 4K/1080p and 60 FPS, no buy" crowd will finally shut up. Although by then they'll probably have become the "No 16K and no 600 FPS, no buy" crowd.

Posted this on NL but I'll put it here too.

My opinion on the Switch is flopping around like a fish out of water.

On one hand, I like the idea on paper. On the other, I don't. The openness of the system is a great boon, but it also hampers the experience through limiting the hardware out of necessity.

This isn't a system I can say if you only want portable or home gaming, buy it, because you buy two halves and only care about one. This is a system that only really works if you can use and appreciate both.
When I was at university and travelling a lot, I could do that. It fit in. Now, I barely leave the house, so why do I have it? It barely gets used.

Then we have the games. Looking back, it's a range of meh to decent titles.

Breath of the Wild is a game I can comfortably say was "Okay", but I don't ever really want to play it again. That's a literal one and done title. ARMS was fun, but nothing more than a distraction. Mario + Rabbids has boiled down to be quite boring. Splatoon 2 isn't holding me like the original, and I wish I knew why. A lot of the indie games are one and dones, or buy and regrets.

This is a system I think epitomises....just there. It's a thing. It exists. I'm actually moving back to playing on my PS4 more because I don't have a need for the features of this hardware anymore, and the games on their own lose their luster without that. Without the boon of OMG ITS PORTABLE, something like Breath of the Wild is just...an okay game.

And a lot of the third party games, sure, portability, but outside of that what is the experience? Pay more for a perfectly fine and playable version of a game, but be aware that it's actually not the best experience you could be having on your TV, but its the only experience in your hand.

I just...don't know what to think about this thing. It just exists.

@BLP_Software Totally agree with you on that. I have a Switch but honestly I play the PS4 alot more. Most of the games that are coming out on it I either have played already or will get on my PS4 where I have the harddrive space and don't have to buy an SD card as well.

I think it's great for Nintendo fans especially if they don't own a PS4 or Xbox One and can now play some of these games like Doom and LA Noire for example. Unless you are a die hard Nintendo exclusive fan I don't see a point in owning one if you have the other two systems, of course unless you travel alot.

@Tasuki Agreed. Even the usual first party games which are a reason to pick up any system, just aren't good on this thing.

I'm finding myself repurchasing PS4/Steam games just to be able to play them on the Switch. I'm absolutely in love with the system.

Of course, I'll fully admit it's the versatility of the hardware that drives that love. The exclusives are fantastic, of course, but Nintendo exclusives are almost always fantastic. The hybrid approach just really resonates with me.

At this point, the only reason I don't sell my PS4 (besides not wanting to lose P.T.) is because it's still getting a number of decent exclusives that I won't be able to play anywhere else. Ni no Kuni 2, in particular, looks absolutely fantastic.

@BLP_Software I played Zelda on my Wii U and I didn't get one until a few weeks ago. I loved Splatoon, so it's understandable that 90% of my current gaming is spent on Splatoon 2. And Odyssey comes out next week, but I don't have much to look forward to beyond those two games. I also want a demo for ARMS...

I don't really care about its portability, but I sometimes use it like I used the off-TV play functionality with the Wii U. Still at home, but in bed before I go to sleep for example. I think I will continue to buy most multiplats on PS4 though, where they're often cheaper, released earlier, and don't take up as much storage space relatively speaking.

@Octane Sounds like you DO care about the portability to some extent if you're playing it away from the TV.

I don't take my Switch out of the house most days, but I do take advantage of its portability all the time to play around the house. Occasionally I'll play on a long car ride or during downtime at work, but the main thing for me is not being tethered to a TV.

It's why I currently have no backlog for my Switch and a large-ish backlog for all of my stationary systems: I often have little bits of time that can be used to chip away at games, but not enough continuous free time to just sit and play a game on a TV for hours on end.

Since Switch versions of games can be played anywhere and PS4 games force me to stay in one spot when I want to play them, my PS4 is purely for exclusives at this point.

@Ralizah I use it because it's there, but I don't miss it when I play my PS4. If that makes any sense. It's neat, but I don't use it enough for it to be a big deal.

@Ralizah But again unless you travel alot the portability of the Switch isn't going to be worth buying a game you already have on PS4 and that's the problem I am having.

I already played and beat Skyrim on the 360 years ago same with LA Noire and I have Doom on PS4. I rarely go anywhere but work and I am not taking my Switch there since my breaks aren't long enough. So besides the portability factor what's the point in buying the same game on the Switch?

As I said before it's great for Nintendo fans who don't own a PS4 or Xbox One or travel alot and want their favorite game on the go, but other the that the system is just Meh.

@Tasuki I disagree. I don't travel a lot, and the portability of the Switch is its biggest draw to me. Portable systems are just much more convenient and comfortable, and being able to play a game like Stardew Valley wherever I am without fixing myself in front of a TV for hours is irresistible to me.

Obviously, if you don't value hardware versatility, then the system won't have as big of a draw on you. There are people who are incredibly enticed by the notion of playing a game in 4K as well, but nothing about that entices me, which is why the Xbone X and (probably) the PS5 will probably not really interest me.

For me, there are two types of gaming machines: boxes that sit under TVs and require me to carve out a chunk of my time to dedicate myself to playing them, and systems that are portable and that I can easily integrate into my life, no matter how things happen to be going. I don't really care what stationary box I play a game on (I'd never be tempted to repurchase a game on PS4 that I also have on Steam, for example, or visa versa), but the notion of being able to play my games in a way that is more comfortable and enjoyable for me, like on the Switch, will get me to repurchase them if I like them enough.

@Ralizah I guess then that's what it comes down too personal preference. I have never been a huge portable gamer, even as a kid. Yeah I had a Gameboy but the only time I played it was on the good ole family road trips. Even now I own a 3DS but the last time I really played it was when A Link Between Worlds came out.

I have just always preferred playing games on a big screen controller in hand on a comfy couch or chair.

I think the portable nature of Switch does lend itself to certain games quite well. Simulations like Stardew or bigger games like Skyrim that, yes, I have 4 systems that can play that already, but that is a game Im unprepared to sit down for a while just to progress a little in.

Actually I can say that about a lot of western games.

But then thats preference just like if you prefer a DS4 or XBO controller.

What I have seen is what effectively amounts to a three way venn diagram between consoles, pc and switch. Very very few people are in the overlap between all 3, but there are a lot of overlap between PC and Switch and some between consoles and Switch.

Consoles and PC? Probably some overlap.

And then youve got the groups on their own with just one system.

In reality I expect the overlap between the consoles and PC is small. Its a weird three way thing really all dictated hy preference. I just dont agree when insults get thrown because of that.

@BLP_Software I would also like to see a diagram of the age group of Switch users, PS4, PC.

I might be talking out my butt here, but I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the Switch owners are in the younger age group, not necessary young kids but those who have had a tablet or cell phone since they were young and that was how they were introduced to gaming or even ones that there first gaming system was a DS or GBA. Where they are more use to a smaller more portable gaming system. Where as someone my age was introduced to gaming on a home system and thus are more comfortable with a system like a PS4 or Xbox.

@Tasuki @BLP_Software Agree it would be interesting to see demographics for the Switch. I really like my Switch and find it complements my PS4 and other consoles pretty well. I am married with two kids and I find that the Switch does fit in quite well with my life because I don't always get the main telly but I can just pick up a game. It is how I managed to fit in so many hours into BOTW while still playing/completing other games on my PS4 because I used it when I couldn't get to my PS4. Of course, it is all down to lifestyle and that is just my personal circumstance.

I think it fits in with people like me, PC gamers who have a soft spot for Nintendo or also want something portable and also families/people with kids where it can keep kids quiet!

@BLP_Software Well, I like (single player) adventure games a lot, so I gravitate towards Nintendo and Sony consoles. I don't own a dedicated gaming PC, because I need a laptop for uni/work, and I think that having to PCs is a bit redundant. My laptop is still pretty decent, not suitable for high-end gaming, but it can play the things I want to play on PC. But that's mostly retro stuff, with a few RTS games, tycoon sims or card games here and there. There's a place for everything, but as you said, I don't think the overlap between PC and PS4/Xbox One is very big.

@Tasuki It could be me, but I'm under the impression that Nintendo has the older demographics for once. I expect the majority of Switch owners to be at least 20 years old, probably between 20 to 30 years old. And for €330, I can't see many young children being able to afford the system. Most of them are into Minecraft, COD and GTA anyway (ok, well Minecraft is on Switch I think, but you get my point). I still remember that the 3DS barely sold when it came out, and it was because of the €250 price tag. It didn't do great until they dropped the price to €170 later that same year.