Unfazed by Concord, Sony Doubles Down on Exploring Service Games

They’ll never learn, will they?

Terrible idea

Sounds like Sony needs to take a cue from Sonic and "Live and Learn".

Hehehe I'm so funny

i ain’t complaining - give us Twisted Metal!

Helldivers 2 attracted many players by being an attractive product, with a clear vision and - a few post-launch misteps aside - a focus on being fun before anything else. A game that works as a live service, but avoided being defined by it.

Unless Hulst gives up on championing 'service first' products, Sony's push on them is going to go as well as it already has - in broad terms, very, very poorly. All it takes is a glance in any direction - Warner and Suicide Squad, Ubisoft and xDefiant/Skull and Bones, Square with Foamstars, and so many more examples in the last few years alone - to realise that this is not the golden goose that the industry wants to believe it is, but one of the most risk-laden design choices available.

(And Hulst should still have been promptly removed from his post for championing Concord so heavily for years, only for it to finally be revealed to a resounding "...eh.")

I can't wait to see how Fairgames, Marathon, and the Horizon multiplayer games perform. These will be fascinating to analyze regardless of the results.

Herman Hulst needs to go.

Maybe another million dollar loss would see him finally axed.

I’m glad Sony not giving up on live service games completely because of concord. I want good first party single player and live service games from Sony.

There's nothing wrong with live service. That was never the problem. People said hero shooters were oversaturated and then Marvel Rivals came along and proved there was still demand. Make a game for gamers, not for X or Bluesky.

@QiaraIris why Sony making more money than ever from PlayStation since he been in his role.

Sony: we just haven't found the right one audiences are willing to eat up yet.

Audiences: were either comfortable with the ones we play or got better things to do with other games. XD

Sony: but you have to be convinced, we want our Marvel Disney like money.

Audiences: good luck getting it then

Both need to go or chance tact. For money coming in sure but do it better in themes/game design not stupider.

Even Waydinder discovered recently and wow the gimmicks in dungeons and other fair stuff is there. For a team going for an MMO then co-op/solo ARPG and did Darksiders Genesis and others. What a great idea with variety in dungeons. Not generic garbage other games have of trends and the simplest design I've seen more then PS3/360 gen greatness of simplicity but depth not simplicity and no depth or recycling other menus/weak ideas.

This gen sucks and companies will go eh audiences will change their minds. No we won't. They are set to continue with other IPs or give up and go to other consoles/PC/old gen.

I'm happy on old gen and no 2024 contributions. It's been great. Better gameplay ideas to seek and for companies to take the middle finger till they do something better with their time.

I don't want repeated history or baiting old and new audiences to slip and go for it, give it up Sony your drunk and repeating the same money dreams over and over.

You can wait till audiences move to yours, or the next gen/audiences of aged players to jump on it or actually wake up and try harder yet won't.

I don't care what they do but it's just funny to watch. I don't have a PS5 I want to use anyway even if within the same building, refuse to use it.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." (falsely credited to Albert Einstein)

It seems the problem is mainly with Herman Hulst being incompetent. People don't blame him for the poor games development direction during Jim Ryan's time considering Herman Hulst was the head of Playstation Studios. He's definitly to blame along with Jim Ryan and should have been sacked when Jim Ryan "left".

I see people are being as clueless as ever and completely overlooking the fact that the 2 live service games they released this year(Helldivers 2 + Concord) generated way more combined revenue than all the single player games they published this year combined(Rise of the Ronin, Stellar Blade, Astro Bot, Lego Horizon, Until Dawn Remake)

Trial & Error? And try again? Wish you luck sony cause i have no interested with MP shooting games 🤣

@anoyonmus appears not.

@ChrisDeku Is this a Troll? Sony REFUNDED Concord. They made nothing on it. There is no combined revenue.

Why do people eat McDonalds? Is it because McDonalds is good food? Some might think so. But the main reason is because it is comfortable, safe, nostalgic. Everyone knows exactly what they are getting when they buy a Big Mac. The experience is exactly the same every single time.

And it is the same with long-running videogames. It is not actually enough just to create an awesome game because a significant number of people will literally only play one or two games forever. This is one of the main problems with PS Plus and Gamepass as well.

TL;DR the prospective market from Fortnite or COD isn't actually as big as it looks because many of these players will never make the switch for any reason.

@ChrisDeku Concord generated revenue ?? Am i missing something here ??

@ChrisDeku Concorde isn't really helping there, lol. It was reported to have lost Sony somewhere between $200 and $400 million. I wonder how much of Helldivers 2's profit that cancels out.

Edit: Quick Google search claims Helldivers made $380 million in profit this year. So Concorde's loss was equal to either half or all of that.

@Jrs1 @LifeGirl

Sigh...

ChrisDeku is saying that Sony made so much from Helldivers 2 that even if you subtract all the money it lost from Concord, it still ended up making more from all the live service games combined than all the single player games combined.

I don't mind Sony doing live service as why shouldn't they? I don't get this mentality that some people have, that everyone but Sony can do live service and want Sony to fail. The way the Concord failure was celebrated was disgusting, a Studio was shut down and people lost their jobs but people's only concern was that Sony learnt their lesson and must only make single player games. Single player games that most of those people would just complain about anyway.

For Sony to continue down this path I don't want to see any more studio's shut down, if any do fail then just put that Studio back onto making single player games.

Just like his mentor Jimbo, Hermen obsession with live service is just nuts.

Now Hermen used Helldivers 2 as "what did i tell you?" card to convince SIE shareholders and Totoki trust that SIE future will be dependent on live service games.

Hermen clearly doesn't give a damn with Astro Bot success of winning GotY and in the same time selling well. Nor he care that PS fans wants more single player games from classic Sony IP.

sigh...

The sad truth is that the average reader here does not represent the average gamer in 2024. These are the people that play fortnite , cod, LoL, mobile free to play games. So yeah, i might not like this push for live service from Sony but i dont see it changing any time soon.

I guess the problem Sony has is that people want another Astrobot style game this year (that would be nice), but they haven’t had their development teams working on that for 5 years.

Instead they have put all their development eggs into one basket with a bunch of live service games. No way to alter them into single player experiences, just shoot people online and pay for fancy hats for bland characters to wear.

Well I'm sure they learned a lot from Concord in terms of what not to do

@MrGawain I largely agree and live service isn't for me but ghost of yotei, heretic prophet and wolverine are just 3 eggs not in said basket.

@LifeGirl No, it's reality. Live service games made more money for Sony than single player games this year.

The nature of the live service market is lots of failures and occasional massive hit. The failures are part of the overall price of the successes.

Live service isn't the issue, prime example Marvel Rivals released after Concord is making serious waves. Sony just needs to make a serious commitment to explore new ways to play and ofc free to play. If Nintendo of all people can make a live service game and people don't cry about it, anyone can.

@themightyant That's just my immediate intuition without doing any calculations etc.

From what I recall was the launch sales were around 1m from Stella blade, slightly less for RotR and 1.5m from Astro Bot and the other appear to have not made significant revenue. If we double all those launch sales and add a million units for the other 2(probably generous) we get something in the region of 8m units.

I believe Helldivers crossed 15m a little while back(from a team member tweet that's not 100% reliable but it sounds about right). 15m units plus fairly sizable MTX transactions would likely put that ahead of the theoretical 8m units of the more expensive games I believe.

From what Hulst says in the interview, you may as well say 'Sony doubles down on single player games.' The fact is that they are going to continue making both single-player and live-service games ... and why not? I have zero interest in live-service games, but if they help keep playstation profitable - and therefore able to continue making high-quality single-player games - then carry on milking those people willing to pay $20 for a piece of cosmetic dlc, etc.

Okay, cool. I'll enjoy continuing to not buy a PS5 then.

Just by the title they've not learnt their lesson.
D.E.I = D.O.A

@Jay767 cause of price hikes to milk the consumer more and more.

“ Going forward, we will continue to focus on developing live service titles along with the story-driven single-player titles that our players want.”

All you need is an “actually” after the word “our” in there and it’s perfect. Players want maybe two live services at the same time. We mostly don’t have time to play, say, seven of them concurrently without being left behind. It’s a terrible business model and it is not going to pay off.

Make fewer LS games which are actually worth the money, and funnel the cash into making blockbusters which people want. It’s not hard to grasp!

Sad to see a lot of uneducated people in this comment section.

@Shepherd_Tallon I get what you mean, but my thinking is as follows:

I love coffee.
I occasionally enjoy a cup of tea.
I can make coffee whenever I like.
I can only make tea when there are other people making tea, and if I pay a subscription to the company which makes the kettle.
If I make a cup of tea, the kettle company tries to tell me that the tea looks a bit naff, and that I could have a nicer cup of tea if I pay another two quid.
The kettle company have had problems with their leads, so I can’t make tea for the next two days.

Sod it, I’m making coffee.

Concord was especially fudged in my opinion and its Hindenburg status isn’t necessarily a condemnation of live service games. I do think the amount of them that are being chucked into the world, only to shut down months later is something that needs to be addressed.

@nomither6 Why not remake World Tour with online matches and you are already there. Save your a 100 million plus budget on liveservice that fails.

Just played Astrobot and found that games can be fun even at my age.

@themightyant With two games a sport title which all are liveservice at the moment.

A mediocre shooter that has done so many terrible anticustomer practices with the worst microtranstions.

The only fun game was Helldivers 2 with godawfull toxic playerbase especially the PC masterrace. Its probably not as bad as League of Legends but what is. 🥲

I just started playing Astrobot man that game is made with love such a fantastic fun title. It made me see that gaming isnt completely dead yet.

They should probably acquire a new successful live service game company versus trying to turn their existing studios into making live service offerings.

Helldivers 2 is to Sony Computer Emtertainment what Venom is to Sony Pictures. They think that one success is guarantee that the other will be just as good, not realizing that there are other factors that contributed Helldivers 2's success besides bring a "live service game", mostly that the game was designed as a fun multiplayer game first, and live service title second.

If sony still wants to keep working on this, then either give us Playstation Home 2 or a new PS All Stars game. I think they can make a good live service game. Hell, Gran Turismo 7 is doing alright so far. The thing is, these games were made in the end to entertain their audiences and fans in mind. Games like Concord and Destruction All Stars feel like they were made to chase trends, which isn't always a good thing to keep in mind when making these games (take a look at Nerdslayer studios' videos)

I'd say that I'm still pissed ofd that they shut down Concord instead of giving the studio another shot. Despite my gripes with Concord, I would have actually loved to see them make a comeback, perhaps learning from their mistakes. Instead, they treated Concord and their team like an afterthought.

How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man!

If they bring back sly jak and other older IPs as liveservice games, I'll be done with sony. Why focus on liveservice so much when you could focus on a good product/game first? Helldivers2 didnt succeed because luveservice it succeeded because it is a good game. (I dont like it but that's taste). Make a good game first and foremost. But I feel that sony has kinda lost that "magic" touch. Also games like sly came out at the perfect time for them.

@ATaco never understood that comment other then overwatch what other hero shooters was there?

bad news for new year :/
try new stuff... be ahead of the industy stop copy past MP/Life-service games....

How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man!

So if it flops, are they closing the studios?

@beltmenot Which lesson? That a lot of people play live service games? And that titles like nikki and marvel prove that the market isnt as saturated as claimed? That having a succesfull big live service game can fund most of their triple A single player games?

I dont get all the hate at Sony for attempting to break through in the live service market, when literally ALL other publishers are doing the same

@ChrisDeku See, I can kinda agree that Helldivers 2 must've generated more revenue for Sony than most of their single-player ips. There's a good reason why so many other studios are constantly trying to chase that live service money after all. However, I don't know why you had to bring up Concord as if it contributed somehow to those revenues. Game was taken offline and refunded after only 2 WEEKS and supposedly sold less copies than Astro Bot did in UK alone. I'd even say that Foamstars might've generated more revenue than Concord considering that game got 10 seasons of content while Concord couldn't even reach season 1.

In other words, you can't just use a failed example like Concord to prove your point on live service games and expect everyone to just agree with you. Yes Helldivers 2 did very well financially, but until the higherups at Sony understand WHY Helldivers 2 was such a success at launch, that game will remain as Sony's "one hit wonder" and you can't really fault people for being cautious about Sony's decision on doubling down on them. Especially with the way how they just outright shut down a whole studio instead of giving them a chance.

We were all focused on criticizing Jim Ryan when Hulst is just as responsible for this obsession in live service games, I don’t think PS Studios will get back on track until he’s gone (maybe another Concord-level failure will do just that).

And btw, it’s just sad that many fanboys just take and excuse whatever this company is up to even to go as far as claiming Concord and Helldivers 2 generated more revenue than single-player games, which just isn’t true as one is Sony’s biggest failure ever and the other was a successful but $40 (or less) priced game, plus it’s an unfair comparison as this year Sony didn’t release any big blockbuster game, would you say it did better than Spider-Man 2, Ragnarok, or any of those big games? Of course not.

This fanboy excusing and defending only gets us a complacent, cocky and even abusive Sony…

@LifeGirl guess youve been getting those videos of that guy talking about maccoes on YouTube aswell 🤣

Sony are the people playing the squid game the live service is the pig full of money 🤣

@crossbit Helldivers 2 is very much defined by being live service, and the entire story of the game is build around it. It’s built upon the opportunities live service brings though, not the monetization aspects. It uses live service for storytelling in a way never seen before and doesn’t just iteratively add single player like storytelling.
And so people love it because it does it the right way.

@Jay767 Sony making millions despite him in his role. His first few days also cost Sony milions because he was the biggest supporter of Live Services and pushing trash like Concord as the next "PlayStation evolution"

@CsMs2o i think people confuse this a lot , live service doesn't always mean multiplayer gt7 is a live service racing game. assassins creed has been a live service single player game , no mans sky could be considered as one of the biggest live service games around.

@Simu001 the problem is naughty dog is making a new ip , looks like it has a lot of promise , and then people trashed on it with out even a single second of gameplay. so they are making new ip's and single player game and people still complain. it feels like no matter what sony does at this point there will be groups of people upset at everything.

I know it’s different but never really play online games.
Apart from MK8 on switch so easy so simple and addictive, have about 8000 racing points.
Always get a full game all the time.
That’s the way to do it.
Also two can couch play on line getting points at the same time.

@twitchtvpat
i know, thats why i put a slash on it and also mentioned MP - and my comment point was 'be ahead not copy past', concord was just a copy of existing models~
there are life service games that works well without beeing over used, MP, loot boxes, gatcha, etc. there are variouse of games even tho ppl usually tend to put all into one

@QiaraIris They're a compromised company. When they moved SIE to California, the writing was on the wall let alone a red flag of what direction they were going to.

@Jay767 Good luck.

@CsMs2o it was more like a response to a lot of people it just so happened to be your post. i just find ( not directed to you) people just hate on live service stuff for no real reason other then they are joining in on the mob mentality.

@ATaco Yup. It's that simple. Just make a quality game for gamers and not for your peers.

@twitchtvpat Not everyone will be on board with the practice, but fair enough. Some do hate it for the sake of hating, while others just get sick of the preachy behavior of studios these days. All a gamer really wants is just a quality game that respects gamers alike.

@Jay767 If that's what you want to believe. Sure. You can go along with that position if you choose to.

@InsertUsername i feel like with all the announcements and games coming out between 25/27 i think every one will be happy. no matter what games you are into.

Herman really is just stupid lol.

@InsertUsername I can’t like both single player games and live services games. I have to only play and like the same type of games you like. The ps3 is my favorite gen because it had a good mix of single player games and multiplayer games.

@twitchtvpat Fair enough. I'm sure even with the current trends of studios, there's bound to be a few that will stand out personally speaking. Time will tell.

@Wardenknight133 Because taken together they represent the total Live Service output for Sony. Their live service push will be internally judged based on total revenue of all live service games.

Yeah, Hermen then good luck. Fairgame will be the next flop. 😂🤣

no, sony is very fazed by concord, actually. their shareholders are which means sony is out of obligation. don't believe the PR...

Definition of insanity.

@twitchtvpat
I didn't take offense, dw. But in general I think that there were so many bad live service games flooding the market that people's criticism that bad or even rip-off money was being spent was justified. Sony's attempts with Concord or many other games only added to that. Therefore i hope they would make efferts to avoid 'general market preference' and understand to set new trends and options, this mght lead to a better view on live-service-games in general.

If only they had a major franchise like The Last of Us that they could turn into some kind of online multiplayer game.

@ChrisDeku if that's the case, then Concord contributed to that revenue by like...1%.

And that's being VERY generous.

@Porco Things won't change much as long as Herman Hulst is in charge.

@SoulsBourne128 Firewalk Studios was a waste of an acquisition.

@KawakiisaFraud It's a saturated market to begin with. That and Sony's current culture within their studios will kill it before it even releases. Concord is a cautionary tale.

Helldivers 2 paid off. It’s great and still almost a year later has 100k-200k people online at any given time. And it’s a smaller, pve focused game which to see those kind of numbers almost a year later is a pretty big success.

It's like MS screws up and Sony says hold my beer.. they'll just waste millions of dollars again and again. Nobody wants them.

@IOI It's simply fascinating the mental gymnastics someone must do to conclude a 400 million dollar total loss was actually a highly profitable game?

This is the thing people don't get, a failed game is nowhere neas as big a deal as people think. For example a successful game might make back 5x it's entire production cost, sometimes 10x. A game with a modest budget that is a breakout success might even be 20x or 50x it's entire production cost back.

A game that fails and generates zero revenue loses exactly 1x it's production cost and never anymore. A successful game can cover five games that make zero revenue.

In the live service sector failures are guaranteed, the smart money is realising the failure Immediately and moving on right away. A game like Helldivers 2, a modest AA development, will make back more than 20x it's budget over the generation. Then there are the games that make $1b+ every single year. You make one of those and any failures are completely irrelevant next to that.

@S1ayeR74 literally no one says that.

I don't understand how Hulst is still in charge after losing so much money for Sony, the concord thing the Bungie takeover that hasn't brought no investment back in and looking at the future probably still none.

WB have spent millions on LS games and look at them the gaming industry is on the verge of a crash like the 80s, suprised it hasn't happened sooner. They should look at smaller projects with a few remakes in the pots of games that haven't seen the light of day in decades SOCOM for one

Well, if they're going to keep trying, I'd like to see them attempt Twisted Metal. If handled with the proper care, it could work as a live service game. The problem is, given recent history I'm not sure I trust one of Sony's teams to do this the right way.

And I shall continue to not play them. No hate for the folks who do enjoy them, gaming is a huge industry. There's plenty of room for everybody.

I think Sony should just switch Concord to being a film/series franchise.

The episode from Secret Level was actually pretty good. I actually wouldn't mind a movie or animate series based on the lore that was established for the game.

As far as continuing the Live Service trend...how about growing Helldivers franchise instead? It's been successful so far and could be taken very far with the right investing rather than gambling on more studios to making more live service games. Sony already has a "hit" on its hands...expand it!

@ChrisDeku As I said, serious mental gymnastics. Go and tell that to Sony's large share holders, I'm sure they'll see your opinion and how a total 400 million dollar loss, literally money thrown down the drain, isn't really that bad after all.........

The reality is they'll strip you alive, you'll be sacked and your reputation ruined in the industry.

@S1ayeR74 Total nonsense. Playstations’s profit increased during the Quarter Concord released by over 180% year on Year. The game’s failure is an irrelavence at the PlayStation accounting level, and beyond an irrelavence at the Sony accounting level.

At the start of August, when Concord released, Sony share price was 16.32. Today it is 21.23, a 30% increase in one quarter.

@S1ayeR74
You do know that software isn't listed to shareholders as profit until they really turn to profit right? No matter if its God of War or Concord, they are all listed as loss and usually remains like that for a couple of years after release.

Not sure why anyone is surprised by this. We've known they've had many live service games in the works. The idea is to throw a bunch of them out to see what sticks, if a few succeed it'll pay for the ones that failed. Sony knew going in that some of the projects would be failures, and others would be cancelled before making it to market.

@SoulsBourne128 i wanted concord to redeem itself too. aside from the glaring flaws the gameplay loop was fresh enough and something different. the game didn’t play bad at all.

@Gamer83 twisted metal has so much potential as an IP , what dev team do you think would be a good fit for it ?

@CielloArc You do know multi hundred million dollar losses are reported to investors at financial meetings right? It will be in the departmental financial reports.

@ChrisDeku God as I dared to mention the topic we shall not discuss. I’ll repeat. A 400 million dollar loss is NOT an irrelevance. No company would ever think like that, to have that 400 million they need to make 1.2 billion dollars in sales!

You now currently Microsoft are the ones making the single player games I want to play.. it’s only the fact they’ll probably come to PlayStation why I haven’t sold my PS5 for a Series X again yet. Indiana jones is brilliant and clearly shows you don’t need to do yet another third person over the shoulder game to make a great action adventure story.

Multiplayer game design is hamstrung by it's own nature, the need to accommodate multiple players. I feel like I already know what a multiplayer game will be like before it even releases, and I'm just not ever going to get aboard that train.

@S1ayeR74 It’s not 400m, that’s a ludicrous made up number. Actual real numbers that are published and factual: operating Income increased by 287.5% year on year the quarter concord released.That’s the bottom line.

@ChrisDeku It is the widely reported figure, http://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2024/09/21/new-report-says-sonys-concord-cost-400-million-to-make/

You've not proven a thing, nothing, nadda, your word is NOT a valid argument against reporters with inside information. A 400 million loss is still a 400 million loss. Stop simping for a corporation.

I mean they can make them, and I will continue to not buy them.

@LogicStrikesAgain I 100% agree with you. What I said was just a little joke.

@S1ayeR74 It's widely reported that a random podcaster claimed it cost $400m and no one with any intelligence put any value in the statement because it's clearly ludicrous.

What I have proven is that on Sonys own published accounting they made a massive profit, the financial year will be the 2nd or 3rd most profitable in the history of the PlayStation division. Concord had zero impact on the accounts. The 15m sold of Helldivers 2 put the live service segment into profit.

@ChrisDeku I’ll take the word of reporters over a random person on the internet thanks, and no one with any intelligence, apart from most of the media. Pretty sure most of them are smarter than you. And again you’ve not proved anything. And you also cannot prove the impact Helldivers 2 has had over Concords loss on live service games.

@S1ayeR74 a podcaster is not a reporter.

https://www.eurogamer.net/concords-initial-development-deal-was-reportedly-200m-though-its-financial-and-human-cost-was-far-higher

Here's another story with conflicting information, and from a slightly more credibility ble source. Unless it comes from Sonys own financial releases it's just a random rumour.

Sony, if you’re listening, just make a couple quality gotcha games with cute anime girls.

Then start printing money.

I won’t play it, but I see the numbers from Genshin and everything else they have been pumping out.

Sony wants it's first party COD,Fortnite, GTA Online live service cash cow so it's not reliant on a third party that could be snapped up by someone & yanked from the PSN later. In itself, that isn't a bad concept.

But execution of the idea to reality is another matter. Forcing previously successful single player focused studios devs into making such games with the same sized teams or throwing vast sums at untested teams & having independent playtesters/middle management that shouldn't have to fear for their jobs if they found the likes of Concord not that fun to play despite Mr Hulst's personal hype to the contrary is very much in his control.

There'd been the rumours of previous backroom SIE producers of long standing departing after Hulst's promotions to head of SIE & now co-CEO,& his seemingly adding ex Guerilla colleagues in their place at SIE instead. Whilst it's no new concept in any corporate, maybe Mr Hulst should take note that appointing a bunch of nodding heads isn't always conducive to good decisions if he was too close to the Concord execs to see a dud in the making.

Santa Monica studio infamously referred to a visit by then SIE head Shuhei Yoshida's less than happy reaction to a God of War vertical slice of gameplay & said the final ps4 release that blew most away was the result of that criticism.

Gambling is a hell of a drug. Live services and other microtransaction/macrotransaction games prey on whales and other problem gamblers. Sony wants to be selling the shovels during this gold rush, but after Concord they seem more like the bag holder too late to the show. I don’t play live-service games on principle.

They need to watch Vaas explaining the definition of insanity a couple times. They keep chasing it hoping to hit the jackpot, but don't get it doesn't work out more often than not.