Topic: General PlayStation 4 Thread

@Fight_Teza_Fight I’d like that. Have a nice long hiatus then come back again. With Nathan Drake too I hope.

@NecuVise Completely agree. I want more single-player FPS games, something more linear with a tighter narrative and gameplay. Personally I'd love to see another Killzone or Resistance game, but don't think that will happen.

@JohnnyShoulder The last Killzone was one of the bigger selling exclusive games - maybe because it was a launch title but only the Naughty Dog games (inc the two remasters) had sold more. It was around the 3m mark alongside games like Infamous and Bloodborne. H:ZD and God of War have both gone on to overtake those now but before H:ZD, it was one of the top selling PS4 exclusives (in the top 3/4 of 'new' (not remasters).

Of course it won't compete with the sales of games like CoD, Battlefield and Battlefront (1), but it did sell more than Titanfall 2. At one time the market was flooded with FPS games that were of a similar format to Killzone and Resistance although they seem to be less common now. Generally it seems we are only getting CoD and Battlefield or Battlefront (although that can also be a third person shooter too) releases with maybe at most 1 other (Titanfall or Halo). I know we may get games like Far Cry for example but that is 'different' as that is an open world game with a first person view. You wouldn't count Fallout as a FPS although that can be played in first person and its combat is shooting.

Anyway, talking of Battlefront, is that a First Person Shooter if you spend more time in third person?

I would love to see Resistance come back as that was innovative and quirky but also quite dark too. I prefer it to Ratchet and Clank but can't see Insomniac having the time or inclination. With Guerilla Games also having a LOT more success with H:ZD and far more likely to be working on a sequel, I can't see them returning to Killzone in the near future.

@BAMozzy That was my point, I never said they didn't sell well just not as much the games I mentioned. Personally I don't see it happening but you never know and it wouldn't do any harm to vary things up a bit.

Most if not all of Sony’s first party studios have games in development at the moment so I don't see where any other games would come from, other than the ones we already know about.

During their latest financial EA revealed some interesting information.
https://www.dualshockers.com/ea-estimates-ps4-xbox-one-sales-...

-As of December 31st, 2017 total PS4 & XBO install base is at 103million
-Sony itself revealed the PS4 install base to be at 73.6million by years end, which would put XBO at ~29.4million
-They expect the combined install base to grow to 130million by December 31st, 2018

It seems like MS have been at 30-35million for the longest time. No wonder they're focused more on engagement.

Even though PS4 is breaking all sorts of records & publishers are posting record profits, it does seem like the console business as a whole is down compared to last gen (Wii: 100mil+, PS3: 87mill, XB360: 86mill). I wonder if we'll ever see something like that again (everyone doing really well).

@Kidfried It seemed like everyone had something to fight over last gen. MS to me seems like it’s more happy to cater to its existing user base & building its services. I think they’re preparing for life after consoles.

I’d be very suprised if we hit last gen numbers, especially as I don’t think the Switch will do anywhere near 100million.

I think there will be less console gamers, but the average consumer is being squeezed for more money.

@Fight_Teza_Fight I think Microsofts business trajectory was hit completely off kilter. They just dont have the games this time around and are unwilling to put their money into new software projects as they gambled and lost that 3rd parties and tv / game hybrids would be the source of the biggest games.

if you look at Microsofts main source of income its the same business software repackaged 50 times. They struggle to bring new ideas to the table. Where as Sony has a multitude of innovative ideas and will back loss leaders. So from a great start with both the original xbox and x360 with amazing best in class games to basically minecraft, forza, poor sequels in old franchises and sea of thieves. Its obvious why its failed (relatively).

As for console sales I would say its about the same with a bigger software to console ratio (thats a complete uneducted guess).

Last gen was a bit of an anomaly I think. Just look at the handheld sales: 150 million for DS and 80 million for the PSP. The 3DS and Vita are lucky if they reach 90-100 million together. Which is actually pretty consisten with the handheld sales pre 7th gen (80 million GBA systems IIRC). Of course, comparing them 1 to 1 is always quite difficult, when does a generation start, when does it end? Are the GB and the GBC one system or two? Where does the Switch belong? Etc.

270 million consoles in a single generation is quite a lot, but the PS4 is doing well, and so is the Switch. Xbox One isn't doing terrible, and the Wii U failed. But if you add all those numbers together, I think that 200 million is definitely feasible, and those are pre 7th gen numbers for home consoles.

I'm not sure how Sony has multitude of innovative ideas considering their first party games have a lot in common, at least regarding gameplay. Uncharted, the last of us, horizon, gow they all have overlapping mechanics to the point where you could say that they were made by the same development team, if you didn't know otherwise. Are they good (amazing) games? Yes! Are they innovative? No!
Dreams looks like an innovative game but it's still not out. Same goes for Death Stranding. As for the rest, I really don't see that multitude of innovative ideas as you described it.

@KratosMD I can agree with that too, and it's a great business attitude in my opinion. I thought he is talking about innovation in regards to the rest of the industry.

The man behind Xbox software has left and now MS are looking to create new studios and bring first Party games to the their system. What you also have to remember is that MS are also invested in the PC so these games won't be Xbox console only exclusives but Microsoft exclusives. If you want to play, then you will need a Microsoft account and either an Xbox OR PC. There was talk that MS were looking at potential selling their games on other platforms too of course - like the Switch or even Playstation. The success of Minecraft has helped although that was multi-platform before of course. They see the fact that the PS and Switch as a potential 'goldmine' and massive user base that they can tap into. If they sell games on those platforms, that will offset losses in console sales.

Whilst they may be losing out in terms of 'console' sales, their user base is far greater than Sony and Nintendo because of the fact the Xbox is on every windows 10 PC too. In fact all an Xbox is these days is a MS and Xbox focused/controlled device geared towards gaming. Its not as 'general' or as variable as a 'gaming PC' that is not locked to MS specifically but the two are very much linked. Like buying a Windows 10 tablet and a Windows 10 gaming PC, you have a windows 10 'console' too - just called the Xbox. Everything MS will be doing will be in support of their Windows 10 ecosystem so if you prefer the convenience of a 'console' and its place in a living room setting, then MS will sell you an Xbox. If you prefer to game on a gaming PC, then you can also get 'Xbox' via that too. You don't also need to buy specifically MS hardware either but even their controllers are built for the PC as well as the console. They are not 'splitting' MS into a console gaming section and a PC gaming section but amalgamating the two into one. Its more like the console is the 'Microsoft' built gaming PC and PC's are more 'generic'.

Sony and Nintendo are more 'console' only focussed and its much more important for them to sell consoles. If MS don't sell so many consoles, nevermind because they still have the massive PC market too. Hardware is expensive to create and the profit isn't that high on each unit but the user base and potential profit from game sales is. If there are only 30m Xbox owners, then that is the max number of exclusive games that can be sold but MS have 100's of millions PC owners to sell to as well. I can see a time where maybe HP or Acer also make an 'Xbox' console much like they also make a competing tablet to the MS Surface...

Anyway, back to the software. Games take time to develop - especially now and even if MS were to have stepped up development 18months ago, the chances we would see the fruits of that today are still very small. After some high profile delays (Crackdown 3, Cuphead, Below etc) as well as high profile cancellations (Scalebound, Fable Legends), Phil Spencer has actively taken steps not to reveal games that are still a few years off from development. That also means that 'long term' plans are not known and also makes it look as though MS has 'far less' than Sony. Sony themselves have changed a bit in recent years after numerous delays. Whilst they still seem content to reveal more 'long term' projects early, we are getting far less 'release dates'. The knock-on from delay after delay after delay (not necessarily with a single title) is that Sony seem to be announcing release dates quite late in the development cycle. At most now we get a pushed back to the 'next year' announcement but its not like the game was scheduled to release on Sept 8th, then Nov 12th, then March 6th before finally coming in May like we were seeing earlier on this generation. MS will never match Sony's first party studio output - not without heavy investment into building up at least an equal sized number of Studio's. You certainly can't churn out more games with fewer studio's - at least not if you want them to be of a certain quality and also not 'cut and paste' either. The only other way is to buy 3rd Party games as exclusives (timed or otherwise) but that is not sustainable either. In my opinion, MS should get back to doing what they did best - Software - instead of trying to branch out into markets that were already well established (like 'Mixer' going up against Twitch/youtube). If that means we see the MS console 'disappear' or built by others like Acer or HP, so be it.

EDIT: An example of this can be seen by looking back at the early laptop/tablets. These would run a windows 'lite' OS and have 'scaled down' software too. The way the Xbox is currently situated, its like a these Laptops - running a Windows 10 'lite' OS focused on gaming and the games are scaled back too - not running at their optimal level - whether that's resolution, visual settings, frame rates or combination of all 3. Like those early days though, you could come back home/office and carry on working on the much more powerful and capable desktop PC because the two were very much part of the same ecosystem. MS are doing the same with gaming - want to carry on playing on your console or PC, no problem, party chat with anyone in their ecosystem - whether on PC or Xbox, no problem, want to play with your PC friends, no problem (of course the last part is more with Microsoft games rather than ALL games currently) but the point is, they are not separating the console and PC anymore.

It would be like Sony making a gaming TV (or PC as they used to make them), a TV that can play games but then only making games that work on a PS4 and leaving the TV to run only 3rd Party games. If that TV can play PS games, it would be like Xbox owners now calling Sony's first Party games not exclusives anymore because they are also coming out on the TV and you don't need to buy the console anymore to play them...

@themcnoisy I'm hoping it's more of what @KratosMD is suggesting. Even though they seem to be heading down the 'services' route atm, I'd like to think they're building up their studios behind the scene for next gen.
@BAMozzy Thanks for the insight BAM. I absolutely believe we will one day get a Sony TV with a built in PlayStation- maybe as early as next gen? I seem to remember a bundle Sony were doing that included a 4K TV, a PS4 Pro+games & a PSVR headset. A PlayStation TV (lol) would seem to be the next logical step and could act between the go between from console gaming to streaming.
I would hate MS to leave the console space and go third party. I can't imagine a scenario were another party takes up its place.
@Octane Last gen was insane. It was the perfect storm. Sony messes up with the PS3 launch, MS goes one year early, Nintendo catches lightning in a bottle and handhelds are still viable. Last gen was incredible & in Sony's case it laid the foundations for the runaway success the PS4 would become (making of Worldwide studios) & we've got competition to thank for that.

@Fight_Teza_Fight I also think there was a huge influx from non-gamers that have moved to mobile in the meantime. That's what allowed all five system to sell incredibly well.

@Fight_Teza_Fight I don't think MS will 'leave' the console space as such and I can see a time when MS are not the only manufacturer either. I can see a time when its more 'PC' in console form with more console-centric features. Instead of booting up to the 'Windows 10' home screen like PC's do, it will still boot up to a 'console' home screen and still be optimised more for gaming with the 'media' features modern consoles have rather than the more general functionality of a PC. Essentially built to fit the front-room and for gaming but maybe they may also allow third party manufacturers like HP and Acer, 2 companies they have worked closely with in the laptop/tablet and of course VR/mixed reality headsets - to build their hardware too - under licence. All that means is that you may see HP, Acer or MS built 'consoles' - all of which run the same software and OS. It also kind of fits in with their generation-less approach - just evolving and able to keep pace more with PC's. If you don't want the 'latest' hardware, you don't have to buy either to keep playing new releases - at least not for years until games start releasing that require better specs - like PC games but when you do upgrade, you also don't lose your library either.

They are already merging their PC and console ecosystem. If you buy Forza 7 on Xbox, you can also play the game on PC (and vice versa), party chat and play across both systems etc too. You don't need to buy the game twice and can carry your saves across from one system to another too. I can see this becoming the norm - not just with Microsofts games but all games (well apart from Nintendo and Playstation games) - no longer PC or Xbox as they will work on either. It almost makes sense to merge them completely. We already see 3 different console specs able to play games online together with the Backwards compatible titles. If you want to play Black Ops 2 online, you have the 360, XB1 and XB1X users all together in the same online. Some online games are not that 'stable' (locked to 60 for example) on 360 but play (slightly) better on an XB1 and virtually locked on X so you are not getting the same 'performance' because every gamer is on the same 'hardware'. There is a difference in some online games too on PS4 and PS4 Pro so its not just MS consoles where you can be at a different frame rate. Sony stipulate that MP games can't be capped at different frame rates (I Believe) but you can have a game capped at 60fps on both but only runs at 40fps (avg) on PS4 and 55-60fps on Pro - its not just resolution benefits. Granted its not as 'different' as the best vs worst frame rates you could see in the PC space - just 15-20fps - but when you have a game averaging 60fps+ as the weakest and one avg 144fps - more than double, its far less significant than with 'lower' frame rates.

MS are investing in new staff and appear to be setting up a new AAA developer studio in California (based on Job Listings). To me that says that they are not necessarily looking to get out of the console space - not when they have also built up the Xbox brand. I think if anything, we will see a change in what MS considers to be a 'console' in that it will be a 'gaming PC' in a console form and not a 'separate' thing to PC's either. People are already asking why should they buy a Xbox console if they own a PC and I think MS will be looking to make the 'console' more a gaming PC (on a budget) in console form than a separate console.

You would think that Sony would integrate a PS into a TV but I can understand why they may not too. The TV market is very competitive and with Samsung and LG dominating in terms of sales and often 'cheaper' than Sony's equivalent, adding in a Playstation which would add to the cost making them even more expensive isn't ideal. I don't know if they still offer PSNow through their own TV's but they did offer that across multiple TV's (inc Samsung) which may well be a cheaper alternative to actually building in a PS4. You would also have to include HDD, Bluray drive, extra cooling etc - all of which also increases the width, the background noise and may even affect the screen and its longevity too. At least with PSNow, the games are streamed and thus don't require so much 'hardware'

@BAMozzy Sony discontinued PS Now on PlayStation 3, PlayStation Vita, PlayStation TV, Sony Bravia televisions (modeled between 2013–15), Sony Blu-ray players and all Samsung televisions on August 15, 2017. So you can only get on PC's and a PS4.

@JohnnyShoulder I knew they removed it from a number of devices but as I don't have a Sony TV or any interest in PSNow, I wasn't sure if they still kept it on their own TV's. Seems a logical addition to me...

@BAMozzy I have a Bravia TV from those years but never used PS Now on it, or on my PS4.

Like you I have no real interest in the service and most of the games I would use it for have been remastered now.

Just waiting for Demon Souls to be remastered now...

If MS can keep their Xbox base and still expand in the PC market, that could be a positive path for them. However, they will be facing an even tougher competitor than Sony by doing so, namely Steam.

Steam has a monopoly on PC gaming, in practicality. Getting large numbers of Steam gamers to accept the new MS platform will be very difficult. They would need some really strong exclusives for that to happen. So it sounds plausible that MS is trying to organize some really big exclusives for the future. They simply need to, regardless of whether they are facing Sony or Steam.

It's interesting when you look at Valve and MS, the paralells. Valve has powerful PC platform in Steam but are struggling with their console version, the Steam-machine. MS on the other hand has a finished console unit, that people recognize, but are struggling to bring their stuff to the PC market.

It's easy to get impressed by the number of PC gamers, but the overwhelming majority of them are people who only play multiplayer games (WoW, PUBG, Leage of Legends, Dota 2, CSGO etc.). Consoles on the other hand are more aimed at single-player, at least comparatively speaking. So it's not wise to just look at the raw figures, since 80% of PC gamers would never be interested in the kind of games that get published for console (or even Steam for that matter). The PC gaming market is not one single market, it's at least two seperate markets.

Ultimately, consoles and desktop PC gaming will both face the continued growth of the mobile market. There are over 5 billion mobile phone owners, the potential for gaming is enormous.

Anyone else think the Xbox One sakes can’t be just 30M?
It does remind me of when I was trying to convince someone that Xbox was getting well outsold by PS4, and he wouldn’t believe it. We didn’t have internet access at the time.

@Jaz007 I feel that they were 30 million last year, or the year before that. I think those are just conservative estimates on EA's part. And remember, they never said the Xbox sold 30 million, maybe they underestimated both the Xbox and PlayStation. Though it can't be far off. It was always around a 2:1 ratio for PlayStation, so I guess anywhere between 30-40 million for Xbox at the moment, probably towards the higher end of that number.