Topic: PS4pro | OT

@kyleforrester87: I've been trying to read up on hdr, and it sounds like it is only on newer 4k tvs. I could be wrong. I'd like to know the truth, anyhow.

Digital Foundry talking about the Pro and 4k HDR. An interesting watch as it also discusses the impact of HDR which we didn't and can't see as we weren't there....

@Mega-Gazz: Having just read more it would seem only 4K TVs are HDR capable, but Sony are patching in HDR support for standard PS4s so people can benefit from that without actually upgrading to the Pro.

Sooo... back to trying to find a reason to upgrade, given I have a lovely 60" 1080p tv...

Also, as I mentioned in the comments of one of the articles, unless you are unreasonably close to your tv previous data says you can't see the difference of 4k.....

I just tried the theorycall performance of the PS4 pro on Witcher 3 (i really dont have much time right now, will probably do more games in the future if you guys want to)

I have a RX 480 8gb + i5 4460 + 16gb DDR3ram, i didnt mess the CPU btw, i dont have a K version so the multiplier is locked, so cant downclock (the i5 is leaps and bounds above the jaguar btw). the RX 480 has a stock clock of 1266mhz and 2000mhz memory, i ahve mine overclocked to 1310mhz core and 2180mhz memory, to test the PS4 GPU i downclock my GPU to 911mhz on the core and 2000mhz memory (in theory the PS4 Pro has a full RX 480 downclocked to 911mhz on the core, not sure about the memory, which considering this card has some kind of memory bottleneck, the performance might be even lower if its not hitting 2000mhz)

The game was Witcher 3, and it was around skellige castle, ill try to do more test tomorrow in other parts but the weight limit mod needs to be udpated so i can actually move to other places LOL. Settings were a mix of High/Ultra + no Hairworks or AA

At 1080p:
911/2000mhz — 64fps average
1266/2000mhz — 69-71fps average

I then said "hey, the ps4 pro is supposed to be aiming at 4k, why dont i try 4k then?", i did this test at MEDIUM settings, considering that must be what Sony is aiming at 4k...
911/2000 — 24-26fps
1266/2000 — 32-34fps

Of course, this is all theorycall and the different CPU and shared memory might affect, plus console optimization. Its a pretty good upgrade, but im not sure developers are going to waste that much time and resources optimizing a game for a pretty low player base when the normal one its so big.

Ill probably try Witcher 3 again tomorrow once i sort that out and GTA5, also Doom and what other game are you guys interested ? (i must have it lol)

PD: im sure at some point DF would do it, but i dont mind making my own approach

@Mega-Gazz: Yeah, not all 4K TVs have HDR feature. I believe it's the newer 2016 models that only do.

I think ultimately as long as you get some better frame rates out of a PS4 Pro it'll be worth it, I do want to enjoy FF15 for example but I will find it a slog if it's chugging along for 50 hours.

@Faruko: DF did the same thing a few weeks - maybe a month ago. They built a PS4 Pro (or Neo as it was then) spec PC and ran multiple test - concluding the 'Best' was to run at 1440. They also showed what SW:BF could run like with all the visual settings turned up to max at 1080p compared to the equivalent PS4 settings. Funnily enough, running at max settings - even with all the extra grunt returned a lower frame rate average. Digital Foundry ran a number of games so you may want to check out their video and then watch what they said about the 'actual' console running games...

However, and as per the video above, DF were very impressed by the 'actual' performance of the console. They actually said they were sceptical after building the PC 'PS4 Pro' spec but the performance witnessed eclipsed that of their PC build. Its not surprising really as PC builds are not optimised for gaming in the same way a console is. You would seriously struggle to run the Witcher 3 at 1080/30 on a PC built to the same specs as a PS4 yet the console manages it. Even the XB! manages it 'most' of the time with occasional drops to 900p with a much weaker GPU.

All this proves is that the console exceeds the equivalent performance of the hardware in a PC. Nothing new there as that's generally been the case because these are built primarily to game where as a PC is a jack of all trades.

@WanderingBullet: I think 1-2 2015 TV's may actually reach the minimum requirements for HDR but as the minimum specs were only formalised this year, that's not very surprising. I can see all (or at least 90%) of all 4k TV's being made will now have HDR capability. SDR and the broadcasting standards were primarily set around the capability of CRT technology. When the move to 'HD' came about, flat screen technology was still in its relative infancy and CRT was still available hence HD was literally just a 'resolution' increase. Now with better technology as well as the diminishing returns of resolution increase, HDR is the next logical step up. The standards though do specify that HDR is a 4K (2160p) resolution minimum and will also apply to 8K if/when they become commercially available.

If you don't own a massive screen or sit quite far away, 4k can be indistinguishable from HD (especially Full HD - 1080p) but HDR is significantly different that its obvious regardless of the size of TV.

Thats true up to a certain point tho, is incredibly hard to compare specs between because console have custom set ups.

So how we should compare ? Comparable price point ? Or with a PC that could theory match up with PS4 specs ?

The first has been done, and the pc triumphed bar some occasions and the second is not possible (i guess).

I think the PS4 Pro is a good upgrade overall but it seems incredibly out of place (Horizon Zero Dawn running at "4k" (its not) could not achieve stable 30fps (DF video) and a year late game like Tomb Raider will have "HIGH FRAME RATE MODE" that will not even achieve 60fps all the time, aupposedly being north of 45fps, which is quite a difference). Like it was rushed because Sony thought the Scorpio was going to be released later than holiday 2017 so they were stuck with a machine they were putting money on but wasnt going to beat something releasing just 1 year away from it.

It doesnt even have a 4k blu ray player !...

Im pretty sure we will see a PS5 in mid 2018, if the scorpio actually releases holiday 2017/early 2018... Mostly because the PS4 Pro is what consoles should have been 2-3 years ago, but they went full short term and released underpowered consoles for its time.

@Faruko: Personally I think the PS4 Pro is a worthwhile upgrade. I don't think its 'out of place' at all. More and more people are upgrading to HDR and/or 4k TV's and therefore this upgrade makes sense. Just because a game doesn't natively run at 4k, doesn't mean the console (or visuals) are poor. We have games that can't run at 1080p on a 1080p TV with the PS4! Games will look better than they currently do - especially with the addition of HDR. As an owner of a 4k HDR TV, I would rather have a game running at 1800p (upscaled to 2160p) than a game running at 900/1080p and then upscaled to 4k. At 1800p, around 3/4's of the pixels are 'native' at 900p around 1/6th! Even at 1080p its only 1/4 so 1800p represents 3x the pixel density. Its still going to be the first console with Native 4k resolution!

Whilst I am a little disappointed in the omission of a 4k HDR Bluray Player, I buy a console to game - not to watch movies. I would of course preferred the Player but realistically, its only likely to get used once or twice. Unlike MS Sony opted to upgrade the gaming experience rather than just the media side. Something that will benefit ALL users of the console - I can't see someone buying a console and not using it to game.

The other thing that Sony has done with the PS4 Pro that MS are NOT doing with the Scorpio is safeguard the older gen. The Scorpio WILL have extras that the XB1 won't or can't play. Its getting VR support so the Scorpio will get extra games and extra features. Rise of the Tomb Raider (for example) has a VR level that is playable on PS4 and PS4 Pro - something like this will only be available to Scorpio owners not XB1 owners. When MS said 'no-one' gets left behind - they meant no 'game/app/peripheral' gets left behind as they will all be playable on the Scorpio but not all Scorpio games/apps/peripherals will work on XB1.

I still think Sony will look to release its 'next' gen console around Q4 2018 - a year after Scorpio. The PS4 will be 5yrs old by then and that still allows a year or two 'cross-over'. I really don't feel the PS4 Pro is rushed - its powerful enough to make a significant difference to the current and soon to be released games, but not too powerful that it makes the PS5 look like a minor step-up or wasted when games that could run on it, don't get released because the 'base' PS4 can't handle it. If the PS4 Pro was 6+ teraflops, a game could still run that may not run on a 1.8tflop console with a 1.6ghz CPU. Its built to be an upgrade to the PS4, not a replacement!

@BAMozzy: That could be an issue, my current TV's only 42", at maximum I think 50" screen would fit in my room but I only sit roughly around 6 feet away from the TV…. Most of the 4K HDR TVs I've seen so far in shopping malls are around 55" at least.

Anyways, I might wait to see next year's new range of TV models. Both prices and features might be lower and better by then.

@WanderingBullet: Samsung do a 49" KS7000 (or the KS7500 curved version) which in the UK can be found for around £1k - It was £1.3 at launch and may drop further with Black Friday and January sales...

https://www.powerdirect.co.uk/catalog/product/view/id/9068/s/...

Next years TV's tend to start releasing around March after their reveal in January at CES.

@BAMozzy: We don't have Black Friday sales, it'd be great if we did.lol But, I am seeing sales for some of the current 2016 models, probably because they want clear stock before 2017.

Again I want to stress how dumb I find it to split the userbase and how it is all Microsofts Fault.
I think Sony would have never come out with a PS4 pro if MS didn't mess up the Xbone in the first place, so they're bringing the scorpio. So Sony needed to beat them to upgrading their System.

Further things that really bother me about having the PS4 pro in family:
One of the big benefits of having locked hardware in a console was that overtime the devs would learn how to utilize the power of the hardware. Think about last gen. The Last of Us was pushing out every little bit of power out of the console. Now what do you think will happen regarding this with the PS4 pro? Do you think devs will optimize for the standard model or for the pro in the long run? Either way, we lose. If they focus on the standard model, the "upgrade" to graphics will be only marginal on the pro. If they focus on optimizing for the pro in the long run games on the standard model will run worse than they would if the sole focus was on optimizing for the "old" hardware.

Also another thing that really bothers me is multiplayer. Sure they will not allow higher framerates, BUT in example for Battlefield 1, IF I have a higher resolution and more details on the pro and a 4K monitor compared to a standard and a full HD monitor, people might be able to snipe better/further. We will be in the hands of the devs to really keep it fair. A further drawing distance on the more powerful hardware will mean a significant difference for the non-pro players.

I still can't get to comfort with the idea of having a separated user base in pro/standard. The locked hardware was one of the benefits and appeals of a console for me. On a personal level I won't upgrade but that feeling that things could run smoother or look better will nag me, if I don't upgrade to 4K everything. I hate that. That's one of the reasons why I don't like PC gaming. I liked the idea of having a console and EVERYONE is on the same level playing field. This is no longer the case.

@Scollurio: According to Sony, the PS4 Pro was on the cards long before MS announced Scorpio and in fact leaked before MS's plans for that console. Its possible that MS heard or saw the Leaked PS4 Pro specs and thats why its more powerful and one of the reasons why its not releasing until next because they are now reacting to Sony and further behind on their R&D.

The PS4 is much more like a PC and a lot easier to programme for than the PS3 so there is much less of a learning curve. Developers are having to use creative ways to get their games running on such 'weak' hardware comparatively. There is no way the Witcher 3 (for example) would run at 1080/30 on an equivalent spec PC. A number of developers have already stated that the CPU is the main cause of bottlenecking and why its difficult to maintain a consistent performance. Less than a year after release, Sony unlocked the 7th core for developers to try and boost game performance. The Last of us wasn't the 'pinnacle' of last gen at all from a technical point of view as games had plateaued for a while by that point.

There is more of an advantage in MP games by having the right TV (input lag) than higher resolution. Size of TV and the distance you sit can also give you a big advantage. If you are sat 10' away from a 40" TV you may not see someone as easily as someone sat 5' away from a 65" TV regardless of resolution. All the increased resolution offers is a bit more sharpness and detail but it won't make an enemy suddenly become visible when they weren't before. If you don't have the best input lag either, you can be killed before your actually see anyone. This is another area that the advantage can be significantly greater than a resolution jump. If you have a base PS4 connected to a gaming monitor and great internet, you have a significant advantage over everyone else - regardless of what PS4 they are using or resolution they are playing on. Ask any PC MP gamer! A 1080p large screen PC gamer has an advantage over a 4k small screen PC gamer! Its possible that a game like BF1 may run more consistently and closer to 60fps (if not virtually locked) but you could still have a bigger advantage if your internet is better, have much lower ping, have a much bigger screen and much lower input lag or any combination of these. Its a complete BS that all console gamers are on a level playing field whilst gaming online. The only way to guarantee that, is to play on LAN with exactly the same monitors, consoles and gamepads - hence that's why they use this set-up for eSports

The PS4 Pro does NOT split the user base at all. Every game will be playable regardless of your choice of console. you are not locked out of playing certain games/features because you have the base model, you are not restricted to playing games with other base model owners, in fact you will never know which gamers have a Pro, original or Slim in a lobby. To split the user base, the PS4 Pro would have to have its own games, own network/servers etc. The ONLY thing the PS4 Pro will offer that you can't get on the base model is 4k Streaming. So games may look better, but that's not stopping you from playing and playing these online in the same way.

MS have just massively increased its Xbox user base - not by selling more consoles but by releasing Win10 and introducing the UWP. Games may not be as 'exclusive' anymore because they now release on Windows 10 PC's but that means ALL MP/co-op games are now playable cross -platform. XB1 has had cross platform with the introduction of BC games - these are played with XB360 and XB1 gamers in the same lobbies. Games like FH3 and Gears 4 will be played online with PC gamers and you can't get a much wider spectrum of set-ups than that. Some PC gamers have enough grunt to run these at well over 4k/60!! This hasn't split the user vase but has significantly expanded it

@BAMozzy: I know about all the facts you wrote but In a way I haven't looked at the situation in that way. Hmm. Maybe it literally doesn't matter at all after all. I just really hope that people remaining on the "old" hardware will not be left out in the cold performance wise in the long run. I might just be a bit butthurt because someone took my "simplicity of the consoles" away. You know the magic "buy something and be happy with it for 5-8 years".

I wonder how well the PS4pro and PSVR will sell. Judging from VR competitors that are already on the market VR is dead already. As expected. I guess the PS4pro adoption rate will be really slow too so I hope there will be put significant work behind the games optimization for the old hardware.

Oh boy. First world problems after all.

@Scollurio: Firstly the PS4 and Pro are literally the same in terms of 'generation' and whilst the Pro may have more power, its still locked to the PS4 in terms of software. Sony assure us its not going to receive any software that the PS4 won't. Its not going to have exclusive games or extra features that only work on PS4 Pro from a gaming perspective - it may have a few 'gaming' cosmetic options (as seen in Tomb Raider - a few different selectable Resolution/frame rate options or HDR on/off) but as far as gaming goes, the games will have exactly the same content, play on exactly the same servers etc...
Its only last gen that really lasted a 'Long' time before the 'next gen' released but even in the past, a lot of consoles had 'upgrades' to try and keep up with the technology. Last generation was one of the most 'static' periods of console gaming but that in part was helped by the fact that at launch, both the XB360 and PS4 were, in terms of gaming, ahead of PC's. Games looked and ran better but they were also 'complex' which meant developers had to learn the system and then push it. This generation though, games are 'scaled' back for consoles. Even the PS4 Pro won't deliver the 'games' at their 'full' potential but will be scaled back to run on the hardware.

With the technological advances - things like 4k HDR TV's, VR etc, games need a lot more power than was possible to offer at a 'competitive' price in 2013. Sony (and MS) could have built a console to last 5yrs+ and deliver the high-end gaming experience but the costs involved would have priced them way above what consumers were willing to pay. If you consider that last years top end GPU, the Titan X, was $1000 yet this years GTX1070 is around $400 but beats it in gaming terms, that shows how technological advances have leaped and how the next Gen chips perform. In terms of tflops, the Titan X actually has more but the 1070, with the new architectural advances can beat it with less 'raw power'

This gen consoles are effectively using GPU's from 2011 and, if we look at the PS4, has 1.84tflops. Its amazing that this is 'enough' to play games like the Witcher 3 at 1080/30. The equivalent PC build wouldn't probably run the game at all. I feel that both Sony and MS had to do something to stop gamers migrating to PC. Games as console versions can't offer the Full HD and maintain a high frame rate - at least not without compromising on visual quality - reducing and/or removing the visual effects.

That means they have 3 options,
1 - do nothing and hope people don't migrate whilst games gradually diminish in quality that becomes increasingly obvious - particularly to those with 4K TV's and those that can watch 4k Youtube to see how 4k games on PCs run...
2 - Release a 'next' gen console - effectively ending this gen early but able to offer a significant upgrade - maybe add in BC so it doesn't annoy as many people, say a few 'buzz words' like not left behind but ultimately release a 'next gen' system
3 - make a 'half-way' upgraded console that offers an 'enhanced' gaming experience but also protect the 'inferior' hardware by putting in 'rules/regulations'

Sony have opted for '3' and in doing so should prolong their 4th gen console and its user base for at least another 2years. PS4 Pro is the 2nd Best Selling item on Amazon in Video Games - behind Fifa17! I don't think its going to struggle with adoption rates. It will be interesting to see the sales figures of this and/or pre-order numbers...

@BAMozzy: You forget or didn't mention that PCs have generic OS's which aren't catered to gaming. They do things like have virus scanners running in the background monitoring all disk activity. They have all sorts of stuff that takes away from the raw gaming power, where the console is basically dedicating all its attention to the game. That's one way that consoles squeeze more out of the same cpu compared to a windows box, and its why you can't directly compare a cpu specs between pc and console.

Honestly I'm curious what the demand is for better graphics outside of enthusiasts. I mean, current ps4 games have downright stunning graphics, and does the average person really care about 4k or clearer textures on foliage or better shadows? I'd argue probably not.

They probably don't realize how much they care about 60+ FPS but they would if they saw the side by side comparison...
(edit: that GIF was just too #$@ large http://www.geeksaresexy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/fpsdem...
but that begs the question... when its time for ps5 how much will people care? The ps3 was really showing its age, the ps store was embarassingly slow, games seriously held back, etc. Will there be the same demand for the ps5, or will people be content with the 1080/30 from the ps4?