@Th3solution Don't worry too much about getting distracted. I was like that early in the game, but now I'm on chapter six, and because I did so much of the side stuff earlier on, I've now only got story stuff to worry about. Occasionally a new stranger mission will pop up, but it's mostly mainline missions now. So it kind of balances out.
I played for a few hours today and the only side activity I did was to go off and catch a few more of the legendary fish. But that's only because I felt like it. I think I'm going to clean up the collectible stuff post-story, if the urge is still there.
Good job, Parappa. You can go on to the next stage now.
@Th3solution I’m also a completionist but had to accept leaving a lot of the collectibles at least. I did the rock carvings and dream catchers, and there is so little reward for bothering. I also did the legendary fish like @Gremio108 as I quite enjoyed them. I also got the cigarette cards by continuously buying pack in St Denis towards the end of the game. That still left me so far from getting 100% though.
And yeah @Kidfried, the trophies are ridiculous. I thought having to track AND skin all animals was a bit OTT.
I think I’m mid way through Ch 5 and I think I can see where this story is heading. Arthur was just diagnosed with TB and is looking pretty rough, coughing up blood and all. If this is like the movie Tombstone, I expect Arthur will succumb to his illness. But actually, something tells me that he will do so kind of self sacrifice given he knows his days are numbered anyways.
The music in this section is fantastic. I think I’m going to add some of these songs to some of my playlists.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Kidfried No, I didn’t really see it coming, but I guess it’s not a complete shock either. I notice in retrospect that Arthur would cough every now and then, but I just thought it was because he was a heavy smoker and was exposed to the elements a lot during the Guarma trial I hope to play a little more this week. I am really invested in the story now.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
I’ve completed Ch. 6. I am full of impressions that I want to share, but I’m holding off and will come back with a full report. It’s a game that’s hard to talk about without spoilers, but there are plenty of generalities I’ll be inclined to touch on.
I’ve been playing nearly all day. I’m determined to put this thing to bed!
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
[Apologies ahead of time for the wall of text. I just have to get some of this off my chest.]
What can I say about RDR2 that hasn’t already been said? Finishing the game comes as both a great relief as well as a profound sadness to see the end of a seminal classic. It’s a game that has me split in my opinions of it, unlike any other game I’ve ever played, I think.
Much has been said of its transcendent open world design and amazing level of detail. It’s a sandbox world the likes of which I don’t think we’ve ever seen. I really believe it sets a new standard in world design that will be a benchmark for future games to aspire to. The living, breathing Wild West does not disappoint with its constant hustle and bustle of random activity, day/night dynamic weather, unpredictable encounters, and voluminous side content. I feel that although I played the game for maybe up to 80 hours, I barely scratched the surface of delving into all the content here.
....And herein lies the main issue of the game. With such a profound story to tell, the enormity with which Rockstar has shackled the game’s ideas under a huge open world actually detracts from what I think is its strongest point — that being its impactful narrative. It’s a strange marriage of linear gameplay and open world mechanics. It’s been said on here before, but the story missions are remarkably linear, with step-by-step instructive text and map markers showing you and telling you exactly what to do. This is in stark contrast to the other element of not being limited by anything but your imagination during your free roam wandering moments through the huge sandbox world. I suppose Rockstar intended to try to please both sides of the fence with linear and open gameplay, but in the end it makes it lose its focus for me a little bit.
We talk about games having respect for the player’s time, and well, in my opinion RDR2 overstays it’s welcome in large degree. Toward the end I was just trying to push through to the end, ignoring most side content, even when the game keeps flinging it in your face, and yet the story just kept going and going. In my opinion, there is just way too much filler here. And I’m not even referring to the collectibles, stranger missions, hunting and fishing, exploring, gang warfare, random NPC encounters, and simulation aspects — The story missions themselves are chock full of trite and unnecessary fluff.
Now I don’t discount that many of the seemingly unnecessary story elements are there to build relationships and promote the player to be invested in the different characters and form emotional ties so that the pay-off will be that much better as you see how things progress toward the end. But it’s just too much, imo. It had been said that the story really picks up at the second half, and although the wonderful narrative does start to crystallize in Ch. 5 and beyond, to me it didn’t seem to keep pace with my interest level and the conclusion was far too delayed and put off by minutiae.
Nevertheless, it’s difficult to be too judgmental of the narrative because I absolutely loved the core story. Arthur Morgan is truly one of the great video game characters of this or any generation. His story resonated with me like few have before. I was extremely impressed with the lessons that the game teaches and the impact on my psyche it produced. I’m a sucker for a fallen hero redemption story arc, and this game has two — The setting up of John Marston’s tale being the other main narrative piece.
(Warning about spoilers of the epilogue and game’s ending in the following few paragraphs, but I’ve blacked out the major spoilers)
But in a game where just the epilogue is bigger than a lot of other entire video games, well it’s just too much. Even the credits seem to carry on and on for seemingly an eternity, trickling little images that give a suggestion of what ultimately becomes of some of games lesser characters. It’s a nice touch but after all this time, just give me the information in a concise package rather than drawn out through 30-45 minutes of credits.
I kept thinking the epilogue was more akin to what would be DLC in most other games and so I respect Rockstar for not withholding content. Kudos to them for that.
However the long-winded nature of the epilogue in setting up John Marston’s plight was a detraction from the real high point of Arthur Morgan’s death and self-sacrifice. Especially when we know where the story is going and what will happen in the the next (or former) game with Marston. And the ironic thing about the epilogue was that when it finally refers back to Arthur’s final moments and the follow up to the other gang members is eventually addressed, it is done so casually through conversation back and forth while walking to an objective marker during a mission with Charles. I was really put off that the game didn’t show the climax enough respect to even have some kind of emotional cut scene when the characters start to talk about their fallen friend and what happened to some of the other members. It was kind of matter-of-fact mentioned that Arthur’s body was buried up on a cliff and that Dutch and Micah were still at large. It was such a missed opportunity. I was still mourning Arthur’s death and the game’s epilogue treated it like just another NPC passing away. At the very end, we do see the visions of the buck again and there is a little revisitation of Arthur’s legacy, but it is largely left untouched. I suppose it’s in effort to establish Marston as the protagonist now, but still.
The epilogue of the first RDR packed a punch because it was so unexpected and so satisfying to see Jack extract revenge for his fathers death. It was like having two climaxes in one game. Here, however, it’s satisfying to see the revenge on Micah and stare into Dutch’s eyes once again, but not worth the 6-8 hours of setting up John Marston’s life by milking cows, building a house, saving the dog from a snake bite, etc, etc.
But honestly, the epilogue is a microcosm of the whole game - a story which could have been told in a fraction of the time.
It’s really too bad because if you sift through all the extraneous content and interpret the tale of a broken man, remorseful for his actions, faced with his own mortality, and his attempts to reconcile himself with the cruel world he unwillingly helped to create ....well it’s just Oscar-worthy material the likes of which Hollywood should be jealous of. For we all can relate to making mistakes in life and hoping to change things we’ve done. To escape and hope for a better world is a universal theme in life. Arthur and John’s story really inspire in their tragic way. But at the end of the day, Red Dead Redemption 2 doesn’t live up to the first game which I felt told the story tighter. For all intents and purposes RDR2 should be the vastly superior game, but for me it does not supplant RDR as the pinnacle of redemptive storytelling in video games.
Although it sounds like I didn’t enjoy the game, quite the contrary — it’s a must play and one of the greatest of this generation. I’m upset at the game for its foibles, but what it accomplished is truly breathtaking at the same time.
I’ll stop now and I apologize as I realize the irony that this post is the epitome of hypocrisy in how it goes on and on to comment about a games lack of focus and brevity. 😂
I've said before in here that I could have quite happily lived without the epilogue as I had similar feelings to you. I agree there is more fluff than needed, even with the characters in the gang (Swanson has one mission near the beginning and then is an utter non-entity through the rest of the game).
Personally, I really liked the side missions etc but it does distract from the main tone of the game as well as the story but I'd argue that's needed or it would be a rather bleak experience overall.
@Frigate Yeah, actually, part of what I wanted to include in my post before it became so long was that — yes, the epilogue actually is a better gameplay experience than the main game in many ways. The milking cows and teaching the boy to ride a horse and such was rather boring and advanced the story very little. Also all the mumbo-jumbo with the Skinners was also drawn out, only to establish the dangerousness of John making his homestead there. Just overall the narrative was pretty meaningless because we all know what the end point is — John and Abigail get married and start a quiet family life as ranchers, and then the Pinkertons discover him. The revenge arc and the reconnecting with Sadie, Charles, and Uncle was decent closure, but way too much carrying on with Uncle’s nonsense and Sadie’s poorly executed Southern drawl by the voice actress. But as far as gameplay, it was a cleaned and tighter experience than the main game. Very little focus on eating to maintain your cores, hunting to provide meat for the cook, making sure you’re getting enough sleep, being sure to steal and loot bodies so you can contribute to camp funds, and all that busy work that the main game burdened you with. There was a little bit of it, but it was refreshing that I could just focus on the story missions and advance the story, despite them not being that great imo.
But, yes - I do totally see why you would prefer the epilogue.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Thrillho The side missions actually were some of the most enjoyable parts to the game. Meeting quirky characters and helping them out in unusual ways was fun.
It was actually the story arc that could have done without all the fluff. So many story missions just seemed to drag. I’d say probably a good 25-30% of them were unnecessary to maintain the tone and overall end point of the story. That could cut a playthrough from 80 hrs down to 50-60 hrs. Streamline the epilogue too and now you’ve got a 40-45 hour game at its core. If it was that length, then I would have felt inclined to spend more time searching for dinosaur bones and hunting legendary animals and still spent 80-100 hours exploring the wonderful world they created. But with all the extraneous story, I had to focus my time toward story completion to keep from getting bored or frustrated with it.
@Thrillho Agreed. It was kind of out of place thematically and a little nonsensical. The main thing I got out of it was seeing Dutch’s turn toward the dark side seems to begin there with the killing of the old lady in cold blood. Of course a similar plot device could have been added any number of other places without that whole tangent.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
I think RDR2 is better enjoyed by those who have a lot of free time to play it and savour everything the game has to offer. I certainly was in no rush to continue Arthur's story and was happy just to wander off hunting, fishing and meeting folks, until Dutch sent one of the gang out looking for Arthur. I can definitely see why people with limited play time would get frustrated with the game's slow pace, though.
I would agree that the whole Guarma thing was the weakest part of the game but I think it helped as a distraction to Arthur's illness symptoms.
A lot of people didn't like Sadie's voice but I loved it myself.
Sadie was a great character in general, and for most of the game her voice was fine when she wasn’t a main focal point. She has a rough raspy voice that fits her tough persona. But in the epilogue she has a lot of dialogue and when she becomes a focal point, it really becomes obvious that she is not a native Southerner. It’s a nuance that I’d expect a European to likely not be bothered with but as someone who’s spent a lot of time in the South and Western U.S., her accent is cringy and immersion breaking at times. She over emphasized the drawl to the point of sounding like she’s making a parody of the Southern accent. She needed to tone it down a little. And there were a lot of times she’d break her regional accent and say something, like just a few words or phrase without the accent at all and then go back to this overly thick but not really authentic sounding inflection. I’m sure the British out there have experienced Bad British accents by actors quite a lot and can relate. But like I say, Sadie’s character was great otherwise.
Now Arthur, on the other hand, really nailed the Southwestern accent. His voice acting had just the right amount of ‘simple uneducated man’ with a touch of subtle wisdom to make him so endearing. And I only caught him breaking the regional tone and inflection a few times in the course of all the thousands of lines of dialog he had. Truly outstanding voice acting. And maybe that’s why Sadie’s came across as such a failed attempt at the accent in comparison when she was juxtaposed to Arthur’s. I’d be interested how other people who have direct experience with the Southwestern US feel about it.
John Marston’s accent was somewhere in between — good enough, but not excellent. When I played RDR I didn’t find Marston’s voice actor to be anything annoying or difficult to believe, but in retrospect compared to Arthur it is definitely weaker.
And I’m not sure why I spoiler tagged all this, but just wanted to make sure people don’t get spoiled the fact that John and Sadie factor so prominently in the epilogue 😄
@Kidfried I appreciate your comments and take on the original Red Dead Redemption and it’s not an attack at all. 😄 I think you bring up perfectly reasonable points.
You’re right that I probably am looking back through rose-colored glasses at the experience. It has been a long time since I played it back on PS3. I really don’t remember how many hours it took me. I just don’t ever remember feeling like it dragged at all or that I was trudging through to try to get to the conclusion. I guess it’s just a perception, which is largely subjective. Time is relative after all (ie. the old adage of “a minute sitting on the stove feels like an hour and an hour of sitting with a pretty girl feels like a minute” — that’s relativity 😂)
But a quick search on howlongtobeat.com shows the original RDR takes a half to a third as long to beat as RDR2, so apparently I’m Not misremembering it too bad. The main story was only 18 hours and a completionist run is 46 hrs! I was barely getting out of Chapter 1 at 18 hours in RDR2!
But there was certainly a lot of filler in RDR as well, but the fast travel really helped speed up the pacing I think.
As for the RDR epilogue I think the shock of being able to play as Jack after John is executed so brutally in front of his family was just so perfect to me. You feel so angry that things end so tragically and to be able to carry on and get revenge and closure was great. In RDR2 I guess there is less novelty to it and you’re expecting things because you know where the story is going. The ability to play as John is not a surprise at all. And that’s fine but I’d have been happy with a quick path to the final moments of the epilogue, which I’ll avoid details since you haven’t finished it. I guess I was expecting the epilogue to be that and when it took 2 or 3 long play sessions by itself, I started to get a little annoyed.
I do agree that a Western game fits a slower pace. But it was too much of that at some points of RDR2.
But I do realize all this is strictly my take on things and I’m probably in the minority. I completely respect the opposite opinion though. 😃
Well then. Red Dead Redemption II, the Moby Dick of gaming, is done. I've tried to keep it vague overall but I'll use spoiler tags in places just in case.
I struggled with this game a little bit at the beginning. I was going up to people intending to have a friendly chat to them and instead I was drawing my gun (don't you hate it when that happens?). I trampled someone's dog and had to reload a save from an hour ago, losing loads of progress but I had to do it, because I couldn't bear the thought that I'd squashed someone's loyal puppy. I tracked an elk on foot through an entire forest, across a river and over a substantial hill, only to find I'd forgotten to whistle my horse to make him follow me, meaning I had to slowly carry a dead elk over my shoulder, like some sort of maniac, at walking pace for about three miles. It took forever. I had a lot of time to think on that walk, and the main thoughts were "what am I doing? What is this game? What am I even playing here? I'm trailing blood everywhere."
That was where the dream of completing the game by Christmas died. On that long, blood-soaked walk, I realised I was going to have to play this game slowly, and it was going to take me forever to finish. I came to terms with it. I was going to have to think like a cowboy. It would seem I was going to have to move like a cowboy. Damn it, I was going to have to BE a cowboy. I let go of the idea of trying to 'complete' it, and instead decided to just 'be'. As in, to just be in that world, a small, insignificant part of it. It took bloody ages, but the game's flaws (or what I had perceived to be flaws) began to melt away.
I started camping each night like clockwork, eating whatever I had found that day, be it a freshly-caught salmon or a tin of beans. I'd sleep until morning, maybe sit at camp for a bit before moving on. Drink some coffee. Read Arthur's journal. These, I later realised, were my favourite moments of the game. Along with tracking animals, which instead of killing, I started trying to photograph instead (my Arthur just seemed like more of a gentle soul). My version of 'hunting' was all about the framing, the focus - I would line up the perfect shot and then instead of pulling the trigger, I clicked the shutter.
That's not to say I didn't like the story, it was awesome. Yeah it was long, but in a way it had to be. People don't change overnight. Those we consider to be our friends slowly change their priorities, or we change ours. We begin to realise that our worldview no longer matches theirs and eventually we either drift apart or we come to blows. I think we have all experienced that with someone at some point and it isn't nice.
I was only half-joking with that Moby Dick comment. Red Dead II felt more like a novel than anything else. Each mission, each errand, even each conversation was so ridiculously well-written that it enhanced my understanding of the cast without me even realising it at times. It wasn't until things started going belly-up that I began to appreciate how much I cared for even the most minor of characters.
The end of Chapter Six was a bit like being run over by a milk float. Yes, you can see it coming, but it still hurts like a b*stard. The epilogue was fun as well, once I'd got over the events of Chapter Six. The finale was massively satisfying, and it threw one last surprise at me when I thought I had everything figured out. The overarching themes of family, friendship, loyalty and humility were handled with a staggering maturity that you rarely get in gaming, least of all from Rockstar. After GTA V I was a bit worried, but they pulled it off. It feels good to play a game that treats you like an adult for a change.
In the end, the closest game I can compare it to is Bloodborne. I know that sounds weird, but Red Dead II drew something out of me, it made me improve the way I play and alter my approach. It dragged me in to its world so deeply until I was in a position where I didn't want to come out. I've hardly ever been so happy to just be playing a game.
It's in my all-time top ten for sure. Possibly top five. I feel sorry for whatever I decide to play next.
@Gremio108 What an interesting and inspiring summary of your RDR2 experience. I think you hit the nail on the head with needing to alter one’s expectations in order to be fully immersed. Very interesting comparison to Bloodborne there, and I can relate. I was so frustrated with BB until I accepted it for what it was and played the game the way it was meant to be played. RDR2 is a similar animal, like you say, although for me personally the frustration mounted again late game when the inevitable conclusion to the story was dangled like a carrot for so long. Those quiet moments of just being a cowboy and feeing a part of the world were drowned out by the endless and laborious paths you are forced down. But yours is a wonderfully articulated comment about how the game evolved for you and ultimately moved you.
Actually the longer I am removed from the game completion (now having had a few days since finishing it to let it all sink in) I am less angry at the game and more appreciative. Ive been looking back more fondly at the amazing achievement in gaming that it really is. I still stand by a lot of my criticisms though. And ultimately it is why I probably can’t have it quite make my personal top 5, or even my top 10. In fact I’d still place Detroit Become Human above it for GOTY 2018, but it would be a close call (and I also haven’t played Spider-Man, God of War, or Assassin’s Creed Odyssey yet)
Part of the cool thing about RDR2 too though is how I am hearing how everyone’s experience is so different. And by that I mean the actual in game moments can be drastically different depending on how you choose to play it and how you spend your time in game. Even the story missions can vary slightly it seems. I only today found out that there are actually 4 different endings depending on your honor level. In mine Arthur died peacefully, but apparently other endings can vary. I won’t spoil too much in case you want to replay the game but there is a significant difference Hearing some of these variations makes me respect the game so much more. It’s part of why I was so impressed with Detroit as well.
And, at the end of the day, here I am still discussing the game several days after finishing it. And very much like a good movie that you ponder for days and weeks after seeing it - to me this is the mark of a really good work of art.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
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