Topic: Backwards Compatibility in Sony Consoles

Sometimes ago I started a topic about gaming preservation in Sony systems, but much has changed in recently, so I thought it is time for a discussion more focused on BC.

So, Sony is no strange to BC. PS2 could play almost all PS1 games, provided that you had the disk and a PS1 memory card. There were only minor issues. Mortal Kombat Trilogy is the only game from the top of my head that was incompatible (I had this game).

All PS3 models play PS1 games out of the box with a good emulator with many options. There was also a peripheral that allowed you to transfer saves from the original memory cards. If I recall correctly the initial US consoles had hardware BC with PS2 while EU models had software BC with PS2 titles. The results were mixed on both cases though and the feature was dropped to reduce costs. Still original PS3 consoles are one of the best way to play PS2 games in HD TVs. A PS2 emulator was introduced later via digital downloads (you could not use disks) but the performance was not that good with results varying between games.

PSP has an almost perfect PS1 emulator. This is clear in both retail releases and games created by hackers with this emulator. However, a perfect BC example is Vita. The same PS1 emulator is again present with the bonus of the two analogue sticks. Moreover, Vita has an excellent PSP emulator that does a very good upscaling in the games and you can map camera controls in the right stick. However, since we won’t have a new handheld the games that were not remastered will be lost in time, especially when the servers for downloading games close. To be honest I don’t see it happening soon, PSP games are still available for download. If you have multiple copies in HDD you should be safe, until your Vita breaks and you may won’t be able to register one that is needed to transfer the games back to the console.

PS4 has no BC at all, excluding the short lived digital only PS2 emulator that was advertised but never took off. By the way hackers proved that the emulator is very good. Initially I was upset with no PS3 BC. There were more games I wanted to play, and I liked the “convenience” of having only one console hooked. I could understand due to the architecture change that games like The Last Of Us would not play but I never understood why games like Sonic, Brothers, Afterburner and PS1 classics were not BC. I always thought that PS1 stuff would be added but it never happened, and we were left to believe that BC on modern platforms was not possible. We surely have PS Now but it is still not available in the majority of EU and I can’t try it.

Then, out of the blue, Microsoft announced the BC program that worked even you had a Disk. I have never owned or played an xbox but isn’t One different from 360 from an architecture point of view? I saw some videos in digital foundry and I really liked seeing FF13 and other games updated on xbox1x. I would love a feature like this on PS4. I never had an 360 but I checked the BC list and saw some games like Panzer Dragoon, Sonic 3 (wasn’t this not sold on PS3,4 due to some Michael Jackson copyright issues, why it is different on xbox ?) and more Sega arcade classics that I had no idea were released and would love to play on a modern system. I guess there are many more that I don’t know. MS uses BC as a selling point and it seems that the new xbox will also feature BC.

I am not familiar with PC gaming, but I guess you can take a digital Steam collection from a windows 7 to a new windows 10 PC to play though.

Sorry for the essay but I would love my digital collection to be available in the next console gen. Is BC something you wanted on PS4 and want in PS5? Do you want native BC or you think PS Now (provided they add PS1,2,PSP etc games) is enough? Is BC a selling point like MS claims?

i would be disappointed if the ps5 does not have BC but i would not be suprised if it doesn't.

BC is the only thing xbox has over the playstation for me and i admit that not being able to play some ps3 games on ps4 without subscribing to a PS now service or keeping my ps3 can provoke some envy for that xbox one feature.

but it would not be the selling point for me. just a very nice feature.

@belmont Yeah, the Xbox One can't play 360 games. The system can recognise the game inside the drive and offer you a download, but that's obviously different from straight up playing the game from a disc (or installing it from a disc and then playing it). I'm still not exactly sure how they do it, whether it's emulating or porting, but I assume it's a combination of both. Emulation that does the heavy lifting, with extensive testing and optimisation to get the games running in a good state. I mean, if it was just straight up emulation you'd expect every game to work from day one, but they're released incrementally. But also in bulk, which means I doubt that they're porting every individual game.

PS4 could be made to emulate PS3 games, how well they would run is debatable but if tiny developers with little to no funding can get PS3 emulators running for PC out of their bedrooms it's highly likely Sony could get a serviceable (and potentially perfect) software emulation for PS3 running on PS4. Think about it, they have the bank, necessary software and hardware teams and direct communication with the developers of the original hardware.

The only reason they haven't done it is money. Both costs associated with developing this emulator, and that in doing so they'll be cannabalising their streaming/PS Now strategy, which like it or not will be the future of gaming.

@Octane what is intresting is that kingdoms of amalur will be get BC option later this week. not that long after THQ got the rights.

could this be a sign of a possible remaster?

most likely not but a man and woman can dream.

also of note is that alien vs predator also gets the feature shortly after the tease of that new MP focused alien shooter.

@Octane @belmont I've linked this article before, but it's a good read on how it works on Xbox.

https://www.eurogamer.net/amp/digitalfoundry-2017-xbox-one-x-...

The PS3 Phat had full PS2 BC because they built a PS2 into - part of the reason it cost so much. The XB1 uses emulation and only a quarter of the 360 games are actually BC. I don't believe any run from disc (although I could be wrong) and use the disc as a 'licence' check to play the games that are downloaded from the MS store. Every game though is individually checked and tested to ensure they work as expected and don't cause issues with the XB1 and its system. This is why they take time to be added to the BC library.

BC on the PS5 is not going to be a simple case of just allowing your discs/downloads to run. Its made more complicated too with the PS4 Pro - although they could choose to emulate a Pro rather than PS4 but then you have 'boost mode' for non-pro enhanced games to consider - and that wasn't great with every game as some crashed or behaved strangely because they were built specifically for the PS4 and its exact tick rate. Building in a hardware solution is more foolproof than emulation but also more expensive. Emulation may be an option but chances are, it won't be the full PS4 library - not a launch. Sony have seen though that BC isn't a 'big' draw as MS's console with BC hasn't closed the sales gap - its actually continued to get wider. They may decide to put all their resources into the PS5 to make it the 'best' console for whatever price point it launches at - knowing that fans will buy regardless because of the 'new' games on offer. That way they can still offer PSNow and remasters of their games - 2 of the top 3 best selling exclusives are remasters... They may decide on a software solution too and offer partial BC - like the XB1. That may not detract from the hardware cost or increase its price but some people maybe disappointed that certain games are not BC (at launch anyway). I can't see them considering a hardware solution as that either reduces the specs of the PS5 to hit their price point or increases the cost to us the customer. I would rather keep my Pro and have no BC than pay more to get BC or get a lower spec PS5 to hit their price point personally. A software solution may well be the best compromise though - some BC to tick that box but not full and not adding to the cost.

The digital backwards compatibility on the Vita has been excellent and a well-used feature for me. It's a lovely way to play PS1 and PSP games. I just hope that the digital legacy is well maintained.

Although it's not particularly high on my list of requirements, it would be nice if the PS5 could be backwards compatible with the PS4. This is simply from the perspective that I have run out of room under my television. Not a particularly convincing argument for it. One great bonus would be games potentially running smoother than the base PS4, although it seems that with the complexity of emulation required, it can introduce issues. I'm not very technically minded, so thanks @BAMozzy for going into it a bit! It definitely sounds a challenge for Sony.

@mookysam PC games are at an advantage as they are built for a wide range of specs and different manufacturers (intel and AMD). You also have the option to download drivers or change code/mod to get working on your 'new' hardware. Some games though don't work as well as you may expect and have issues. The only way to guarantee total BC with PS5 is to build in the PS4 (or Pro) into it. Emulation could be more complicated with PS4, PS4 Pro and Pro's Boost mode. Emulation essentially would need to emulate 2 or 3 different specs. I can't see people being happy if God of War is only 1080p on PS5 when it was CB2160p on their Pro. The Pro itself switches off half of its GPU for games not Pro Enhanced so you would need to emulate that as it could 'break' some games that were built for PS4 only and some games worked better with boost mode - albeit slightly so do they emulate the boost mode to keep those games playing as well as they did on a Pro - although some games didn't work properly so would also need to emulate a basic PS4 to keep those games working too.

The easiest thing is for Sony to be fully focussed on the PS5 without adding in BC. The gamers who want BC must have a PS4 anyway - whether they have 'room' to keep it set-up or not, they still have a PS4 so its not like they have to have BC to keep playing. It maybe convenient for a few to have BC so they don't have to set up a PS4 everytime they want to play. Sony have also said that BC is only important in the first few months of a consoles life - until there is a decent library of new games to play. Weren't very complimentary over BC when the Xbox added - saying thing like who wants to play games that look like that? (or words to that effect). Point is, they haven't exactly seemed keen to hold on to the past and much more keen to look to the future. At most, happy to bring old games forward with a fresh coat of paint but overall, not exactly keen on BC in recent times - maybe that stems from building in BC to the PS3 Phat and then struggling to sell it at that price point - after dropping that for the Slim, the PS3 actually started selling which would show that its something people say they want, may use it in the first few months but not willing to pay for it. If your old games are that important, you can keep your old console too. Is it a 'tick box' feature, something Sony 'must' add because the Xbox offers some BC or really a must have regardless of cost? Sony will have to decide that themselves but the evidence seems to be that BC isn't that major as the PS4 continues to sell incredibly well without and opening up more of a gap every month over the Xbox that does offer it.

I actually think that PS4 backwards compatibility is going to be a big big factor for the next PS5 generation. I agree that older generation compatibility isn't as important a sales factor as us hard core gamers would have you think but from PS4>5? Defo.

It isn't about game preservation but actually about keeping customer loyalty. Digital copies have really taken off this generation. People now have big digital libraries they have invested in. If the next gen PS and XB are released close to each other, adopters have a choice. Do I stick with my current manufacturer or move. Given that PS4 is so far ahead, for me personally, knowing that my large digital library will go with me would make me far more inclined to stick with Playstation. If I know that this invesetment has been kept to my PS4, there is less incentive for me to get a PS then I have less reason to be 'loyal' to tbe brand. If PS don't and XBOX do, well then why not start building a library on XB because that might keep going (plus Game Pass and all the other competitor advantages).

My point is that Sony have to play this right. Orphaning digital libraries while Steam and more than likely Xbox will allow you to will defo impact sales.

Backwards Compatibility is nice at the start of a consoles lifespan but isn't really necessary and nothing to get worked up over if it's not there

the PS4 not being able to do it is because it was built so differently to the previous systems that it couldn't do it, basically they would have to include a PS1, PS2 and a PS3 in the PS4 in order to run the games (probably putting it over £800) and while they have released some PS2 games they still needed re-coding to work on the PS4

and for me it's a mute point i keep all my consoles anyway so if i want to play a PS3 game, i have a PS3 to play it on and it takes a few minutes to hook an older system up to a TV, if someone can't be bothered to do that then that is their fault, they shouldn't be so lazy just like those who buy all their games digitally so they don't have to get up to change a disc

as for the XBOX ONE that version isn't perfect, it's only select titles and not "true" BC, my 360 is dead so i am using the XB1BC for some of my 360 games but over half my games can't be played because they are "not on the program" and unlike the PS4 the XB1 COULD do proper BC via emulation because the XB1 is basically a more powerful 360 in terms of it's tech and it already has a 360 emulator on the system because that's what it uses to play the games on the BC program

long story short, it's a nice bonus but that's all it is, a bonus and is't a integral part of what a system needs

Everyone seems to have overlooked what I think is the key hurdle for Sony's BC efforts: licensing.

Music, regional publishing and platform specific agreements are what tend to stifle consistent output from Sony in this regard.

You've only to look at the PS Classic, the inconsistent PS1 game availability over several systems, the PS Vita/PSTV 'whitelist'...

From the start, PlayStation didn't go down the same stringent, expensive, iron-clad 'this is ours now' licensing path that Nintendo did - because of that, they now find it a bit of a quagmire trying to provide some of their systems' highest regarded games.

I personally love BC.

Oh,I really want BC on PS5 for PS4 games -Where have i heard that before,Surely enough people feel its a very important feature (myself included) To say its some sort of Quantum Mechanical pipe dream of over ambitiousness is surely not right..No,Either Sony provides BC (at least a far as licensing allows,renew licensing?) Or Sony are giving a big fat middle finger to those to have been loyal to them thus far.I also don't think its unreasonable that BC games would get a performance patch boost (frame rates hopefully)

BC would be great, but I've already got a PS4 so I'm not too bothered if the PS5 can play PS4 games or not. I didn't have a PS3, so I sure would have loved the PS4 to have BC with PS3 so I can enjoy some great games that I missed.

There are so many issues that need to be overcome - and costs too that either make the PS5 a lot more expensive or detracts from the specs they can provide for the budget. If people are hoping for a PS4/Pro and PS5 in one device - all for around £450 that also offers a generational leap above anything currently on the market - including a CPU leap - not just GPU - I think that is a tall order.

They could get round this by Streaming and/or cloud gaming to boost the performance of the PS5 and thus not need quite so much built in at the hardware level. Keeping your library of downloaded games though is just as easy as keeping all your discs, you just keep your old console. Long term access may become an issue regardless of whether a PS5 has BC or not, if they decide to remove PS4 titles (due to licensing issues) you are screwed regardless of whether the PS5 has BC or not. If Sony lose Spider-Man then that game may well be removed from the store - just like other Marvel games have. A LOT of games have a license and not all licenses or permissions are permanently owned either. MS have to obtain permission from 3rd Party devs/publishers to offer their games via BC. If Activision decided not to allow CoD:BO2 on XB1, that would NEVER come to BC and the same would need to be in place for PS5 too. Games are licensed to a particular console. Sony for example may well of licensed Bloodbourne for PS4 but it 'could' come to Xbox Scarlett or some later generation console - unless Sony own the trademark/license and keep it renewed. Crash Bandicoot is a classic example of that too and Spyro for that matter. Sony could have paid for exclusivity for the PS1 but not for any remakes, remasters or ports to later generations.

PC's are very different beasts. You can also download drivers etc to get 'old' games working and upgrading your hardware isn't guaranteed that your old library will work as intended - especially 'old' games. These are also built with a multitude of specs in mind and offer a multitude of settings to optimise the game for the vastly differing hardware. Console games are not - whilst they maybe ported - they are still tuned/optimised for a very specific hardware configuration - 2 at most with these iterative upgrades.

It really isn't as simple as flicking a switch and allowing old generation games to run on newer generation hardware...

I expect BC pretty much by default barring extreme circumstances (i.e. Switch changing formats from disc to cartridge, or Sony using internals in the PS3 that made backwards-compatibility nigh on impossible while still offering the PS4 for a good price).