Assassin's Creed Origins Edits Classroom Scenario for Inclusivity

For me, this is a bit of a slippery slope. Inclusion is nice, I get that, but we don't want to reach a point where we're sugarcoating historical facts just to appease social and cultural ideals that have only manifested during our own time period.

History should be a warning — a way of looking back on what people got horribly wrong as well as what they did right. Paint over the cracks and you risk losing lessons that matter.

I don't think we should ever be afraid of criticising mankind's many flaws.

What does changing some npcs do to make the gameplay inclusive? Whatever don't answer I gotta trade this in while its still worth something.

@RogerRoger Yep, that's basically spot on.

I don't have problem with it, it's just a game and ubisoft clearly says it about the inclusivity.

It's weird that gamer ask about realism while shotgunning enemy with a bow. Killing enemy with homing arrow? no problem, woman attend school in ancient egypt? What about the realism lol

Awful, just awful. History should be something to learn from. It should NOT be edited for the sake of "inclusiveness". The fact that women weren't allowed to do the things men were allowed to was a shame. But we shouldn't change history, because we don't want to repeat it.

You know why they did it so they could avoid backlash that would have surely happened from the cry babies on the internet which is just sad.

I've been home-schooling my children purely on the Assassin's Creed series for the past ten years and it has done them no harm. Their love of hidden blades is almost as strong as their fear of the Pope.

Load of rubbish IMO. Trying to alter history is a dangerous thing. Let it be a lesson to learn from, not something that should be changed because someone somewhere on this planet was ''offended'' by it.

It is only a "little thing" but If it is supposed to be a historical tool showing how life was in ancient Egypt, then altering it to suit modern sensibilities is wrong. What use is it as an educational tool otherwise? Who would be offended anyway? History cannot be changed but it can and should be learnt from. Sometimes it's ugly and repugnant to us. That's the point isn't it? It's also important to note that history is not black and white. There's always different angles and socio-economic and political contexts and the lives of normal people with normal struggles caught up in it all. I wonder how the world today will be taught in history classes 500 years from now (if the world still exists then that is!).

Unrelated to the Assassin's Creed but on topic, it is very concerning how many countries represent their history in a certain light to further particular political or nationalist ideals. We see it throughout the world. Even in this country, notice how schoolchildren are only taught the nice version of British colonialism?

@ShogunRok Agreed!

It's equally as ridiculous as a WWII game where Hitler is a woman because the game devs wanted to "represent genders in a more balanced way", arguing that history unfairly portrays men as warmongerers.

The argument that girls can't see a classroom full of boys in a videogame set in ancient Egypt without feeling excluded is about as sexist as it gets.

@dark_knightmare2 not a great plan, since we have "crybabies" crying about it now.

Censoring games? Sounds like it'd be right up Push Square's alley.

@Chronicus_Pr1me It sure does, doesn't it? That's what Push Square is all about!

Seeing as this is obviously a troll comment, let's not do this again.

This shouldn't even be a debate. History needs to be as accurate as possible if you're trying to portray it as fact. Doing stuff like this is no better than twisting a news story just to suit your needs. Good intentions or not, history is something that can't be changed.

At least they admit it's inaccurate, I suppose. Wonder if anyone else would have the same courtesy.

This is why I enjoyed World History in high school.
Our teacher never held anything back. Hell, he even gave us a sheet that read out some of the popular ways people were tortured during a certain time period, and I remember one person seeing that and the next day changing their schedule to drop out of the class.

Seems to me like this defeats the whole purpose of this discovery tour.

There’s no need to be scared of our history.

@Kidfried

Different Ethnicities does not = PoC. Which was the whole topic of Kingdom Come. There are Germans, Turks and Slavs in the game, which does in fact make it very diverse, much more so than typical game releases.

@Kidfried To be fair, having a classroom full of boys wouldn't affect how the game plays. However, having everyone in the game speak in an 'accurate' manner, i.e. the language(s) they spoke 2,000 years ago in Egypt, would not only be impossible since we have no idea what their language(s) sounded like, but it would also affect the game; having to read every bit of dialogue versus listening to English voice actors.

Genuinely embarrassing on their part. A feature specifically designed to educate about history and you modify it to fit some agenda..

@Bad-MuthaAdebisi Yeah I know, but can you speak it? Like they did 2,000 years ago? No.

Censored statues, it's like they shot themselves in the foot. Will Siwa ever know peace?

@get2sammyb Ubisoft is explaining it in the text though, that only man can go to school in the ancient egypt, it's just that they render both boys and girls npc rather than boys only in the school.

Maybe it's better to just shows boys in the tour mode, but I don't think it's a big deal considering they clearly explain it on text.

They pointed out the inaccuracy and explained why they made the choice they did within the mode itself, so I don't see the problem. Censoring the art is kind of ridiculous though, that bothers me a bit more, though I suppose it's necessary to avoid screaming fits from busybodysoccer moms, though it should be something that can be turned on or off since this could also be potentially used in college classrooms, though there are weird prudes even in college.

@get2sammyb They pointed out the inaccuracy. This isn't the problem, textbooks that rewrite history in order to indoctrinate children into a negative, bigoted way of thinking are. "Sexism is prevalent in history, but inclusion is important," seems like a good lesson to be giving schoolchildren to me.

@ShogunRok What part of, "This is inaccurate, we changed it and here's why," isn't a warning, or fails to communicate the point better than absolute accurism would?

@RogerRoger Again, they're making people aware of the inaccuracy. What's the horrifying agenda here, that girls should be fully included in the classroom? Oh noes!

@Neolit This is already done in the service of less valiant causes. It's a big part of why the United States is in the mess it's in right now. They could have handled it differently, like explaining in the narration why there are no girls learning alongside the boys, but this communicates the exact same message. But whatevs, I know exactly why this is bothering some people so much and it has nothing to do with rewriting history.

@get2sammyb Personally, I expect educational materials to teach lessons worth learning. Kids don't just learn in the classroom, they are exposed to historical inaccuracies constantly in books, movies, television programs, video games and yes, even in the classroom. Historical accuracy is only valuable for what it can teach us. The lesson here is a good one and the inaccuracy pointed out. Given that straight up lying to kids about history to raise them to be bigots is already a thing, I'm not seeing why this is a problem or even slightly bothers someone except that they have an issue with inclusion even when it's done for a specific reason and that reason is pointed out and the inaccuracy highlighted.

Presenting information, accurate or not, then putting it in a proper context so that the truth is known but a positive lesson is also communicated is literally what education is.

@get2sammyb to be clear I do not think that you in particular have a huge problem with this or that you are sexist. This subject is absolutely open to criticism, but not for the reasons you think. The greatest importance in criticism is in its ability to expose the reasoning behind, unspoken lessons in and true value of things.

@get2sammyb Seeing woman on the ww2 battlefield is way more jarring compared to woman in the schools because right now we rarely see woman soldier on the battlefield compared to girls on schools. I don't have problem either way, maybe ubisoft should make it more accurate for the tour mode.

@wiiware It might be jarring to some, but women did fight in WWII and technically, anywhere during a war that fighting relevant to that war occurs is a battlefield. The entire concept of a "battlefield" is a holdover from when people didn't mostly live in cities and tried their best to avoid fighting in them.

One last thing. There are many, many historical inaccuracies in Assassin's Creed Origins, both by necessity and by choice. Why, I wonder, is it this specific one that some have chosen to highlight? Of course, I don't actually wonder, but it's important not to let stuff like this stand completely out of context and let people take the wrong lessons from it or act like they're on the side of good for being against it without anyone challenging them.

It’s an interesting, if not heated discussion here. I can appreciate both viewpoints. Unfortunately I haven’t played AC Origins yet, much less the discovery tour educational mode, or whatever this is called, so I am not qualified to make a judgment or have an opinion on this specific instance. But I do think we are in uncharted waters here with the use of video game type of media for educational purposes. I will say that there is a risk we run when we pander to relate to the populace and sacrifice accuracy. I already have a skewed view of Ben Franklin, Leonardo Da Vinci, Edward Thatch and Machiavelli thanks to Assassin’s Creed. It’s like the play Hamilton — the history is altered for entertainment purposes, but I guess at least it gets people learning about something they would never have the interest in studying otherwise. So I can see the positive spin on it too. We are starting to blur the lines between entertainment and education or work.
The concern arises when it comes to be presented in a educational setting as fact (which none of the AC games or historical fiction theater and movies ever claim). In this instance, I understand the developers openly admit the inaccuracies of certain items. Do the ends justify the means? Getting people invested in the learning process and advancing their own knowledge is a good thing, as is inclusion of all genders, races, etc. Creating false representation of history, well ... is it worth the potential upside? I don’t know the answer. I tend to lean toward favoring accuracy over accessibility in this brave new world, but that’s just me.

@Th3solution Ultimately, it is not the obligation of a fictional narrative to be accurate, though accuracy is always appreciated. Any skewed view you have of historical events or figures due to Assassin's Creed games is not the fault of the games themselves, but your own for not seeking out better information despite awareness of inaccuracy and apparent interest in the subject. In this case, the inaccuracy is specifically highlighted, the truth given and the change justified. If that is done then there is no problem. Indeed kids have more to learn from it than just historically accurate information. They learn not to take things at face value, to look deeper than just the surface. Not to simply take things as they are, or were, but to understand why. There is no risk in the way Ubisoft has chosen to approach this matter save the risk that kids might actually learn something. Once again, historical accuracy is important, but its educational worth lies ultimately in what we are able to learn from it. Besides, if the student is made aware of the inaccuracy and proper context given then there is no inaccuracy. There are all sorts of ways to learn and many lessons that need learning.

@get2sammyb Just one more thing. For real, this time. This isn't a text book, it's a fictional narrative simulation that's been retrofitted for educational purposes. The inaccuracy is not left to stand on its own as though it were the truth, therefore the educational obligation has been met, something that can't be said even about many actual textbooks.

An actual textbook however does have an obligation to accuracy. The example that you give, while seemingly reasonable, misses the fact that to push diversity a textbook need only acknowledge it. Women may not have been uniformed soldiers on the front lines, but they did fight in WWII.

@Kidfried You're going to have to explain to me how making the class all male has edu value, but pointing out the inaccuracy and explaining why the developer made the choice they did doesn't.

Also does anyone have a guess why this, of all inaccuracies in the game, is the one attracting, "controversy" on social media. Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Beuller?

@ShogunRok totally agree with what you say regarding how we teach history but isn't this simply using an existing in game assets and not some form of censorship?

This scene is arguably even more powerful by showing what could have been and pointing out that girls couldn't go. Had they just shown all boys many may not have even realised girls weren't there. This would have been developed whilst liaising with education authorities so I doubt they have an issue with it and the inaccinaccuracies are pointed out.

Ultimately this was created as a game first and I'd rather celebrate that our chosen medium has evolved so much that it has been chosen as a tool for educational purposes. I certainly wish I could have been taught this way when I was younger rather than reading text books and I'm looking forward to going through the tours when I finish this great game

@Kidfried They could have done it that way as I pointed out myself in a previous comment, but why should they need to? Why is that necessary? It's okay, I know you don't have an answer. I'm not that fussed over it either despite the volume of comments, just stuck at work all night, bored silly and slightly annoyed that this site considers a bunch of losers on twitter getting their panties in a bunch over nothing to be, "news". Didn't realize Push Square was that desperate for content.

@carlos82

"Had they just shown all boys many may not have even realised girls weren't there"

Well...exactly? By changing it and making a political standpoint about it, they perpetuate sexism. No girl would have even noticed "lack of representation" in a video game, so why re-write history just to be able to sit on some high horse of social justice?

@RogerRoger We don't actually have a duty to preserve the worst parts of history, what we do have a duty to do is put them into a context that allows us to actually learn from them, rather than simply presenting them without commentary. Doing that is how, for example, we get idiots who think Nazi imagery is cool. Look, I can't deny that Ubisoft could have handled the explanation of this deliberate inaccuracy better, what I can't do is pretend that it's rewriting history or achieving anything negative at all. They showed things as they should have been in a fictional context then explained that it was inaccurate in an educational context. But yes, the explanation could have been better.

@mantralux And you wouldn't have noticed it was inaccurate if they hadn't pointed out the inaccuracy, which is their duty in converting this game into an educational tool. Why do you pretend history can be re-written by a video game that, again, specifically points out that the detail is historically inaccurate, so that you can sit on some high horse of... whatever it is you think you're doing?

@RogerRoger You make a good point regarding the text, I just fail to see how it's a problem in this case. Also you'll note I edited my reply as I felt it was unnecessarily confrontational. I was hoping I could sneak in the edit before you saw it. Ah well.

@Donald_M I don't know why you find this so hard to wrap your mind around, you've been arguing for hours in here.

If you visit a museum with an exhibit of Norwegian vikings, and half the vikings are black because the museum felt it "was not necessary to prioritise historical racism over inclusive museum-visits", would you not think that's a bit disingenuous?

The mere insinuation that black people won't be able to handle that museum visit without being offended over the fact that all vikings are white, is racist.

It's pretty clear to me that such a political standpoint is designed not for people to feel included, but actually designed for the museum to win social justice points.

@mantralux More like minutes. I've also been doing work stuff as needed and watching stuff on Netflix, but if it makes you happy to imagine I've spent the last five hours doing nothing but staring at Push Square on my screen, knock yourself out.

This is a fictional video game that has had an educational element added to it after the fact. The inaccuracies within have been pointed out. If they showed, say, Braveheart in a classroom with a commentary track pointing out the historical inaccuracies and had a reading afterwards about the actual history, would you have a problem with that? Because unlike yours, that is an accurate comparison. But that wouldn't involve, "social justice" would it, so I'm guessing not.

@Donald_M Yes, sir ... at the end of the day it is my personal responsibility to validate facts portrayed in a fictional piece, and I’m a big proponent of personal responsibility. My comment about AC games skewing my view of history was written purely tongue-in-cheek. In fact one of my favorite books is Killer Angels. Those not from the US (and many even from the US) probably aren’t familiar with it but it is a fictional novel recreating the battle of Gettysburg, the turning point of the American Civil War. It won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction long ago. It is required reading in many schools here. The author M Shaara wrote it with as much historical accuracy as he could, but obviously to make it like a novel he fabricated the dialog between the confederate officers and the details of the thoughts and actions of the individuals. I enjoyed it much more than reading a textbook and it spurred my interest to learn more. But that’s me. I can’t speak for other people and I don’t have a degree in education or child development or psychology or anything.
I guess on a separate note, I think it’s great that Push Square has these articles every now and then. Obviously the number of comments and interest in this means that it strikes a nerve in many gamers and it is an aspect of video gaming separate from tech specs, reviews, and release dates that I find interesting to think about.

@Donald_M

"More like minutes. I've also been doing work stuff as needed and watching stuff on Netflix, but if it makes you happy to imagine I've spent the last five hours doing nothing but staring at Push Square on my screen, knock yourself out."

I didn't say that, but if it makes you happy to imagine that's what I meant, knock yourself out.

"If they showed, say, Braveheart in a classroom with a commentary track pointing out the historical inaccuracies and had a reading afterwards about the actual history, would you have a problem with that?"

Braveheart doesn't position itself as educational. AC does: "Designed as an educational tool intended for use in schools and universities". So your comparison is flawed and my example with the museum is 100% accurate. Feel free to answer my question regarding that instead of filibustering.

@Th3solution I just find it interesting that this particular example of all the inaccuracies in Origins should create a Twitter kerfuffle, though I also value discussion and take back my previous derision, this has provided me with an opportunity to share some thoughts which I always have a good time doing and sometimes maybe someone even listens, though if not that's cool too. Sometimes getting your words out there only benefits yourself and there's value in finding order in your own jumbled opinions on a subject, I think.

As I mentioned before, historical inaccuracy is all around us in fiction and it's not often addressed all, at least within the text or even supplementary material.

@Kidfried Yeah that's all good, my point though is that if you market something as educational, your responsibilities are now infinitely higher than when making art (games, movies, whatever). I don't care if your fictional WWII game is all-female, but I do care if your high school textbook claims that the battlefields during WWII were all-female.

It's the "educational" claim I have a problem with.

@mantralux Discovery Tour was designed as an educational tool. The game was designed as... a game. That said, you can certainly object to using it as an educational tool in the classroom, obviously a AAA quality simulation designed with full historical accuracy in mind would be better for those purposes, though such a thing is unlikely to be made. The Discovery Tour is supplementary material to a fictional narrative that, among other historical lessons, highlights inaccuracies within the narrative. The game itself was not designed for the classroom and as I already pointed out, presenting inaccuracies and pointing out that they are inaccuracies and why they are present also has educational value. But presenting a bunch of black Viking dummies in a museum so black people won't be offended by the lack of black Vikings in ancient scandanavia obviously does not and also is not something that would ever happen, though a black Viking in a fictional movie about Vikings might and if it did, I for one wouldn't have a problem with it. Because it's fictional, not a historical document.

@Donald_M

"But presenting a bunch of black Viking dummies in a museum so black people won't be offended by the lack of black Vikings in ancient scandanavia obviously does not and also is not something that would ever happen"

...but it did happen, in Sweden. Hence why I used that specific example. You see, I choose what I say very carefully.

@mantralux Well that's dumb obviously, but if the inaccuracy was pointed out then dumb is all it is, though I also fail to see what harm it does, as opposed to say textbooks published in Texas designed to push a racist agenda

@Kidfried Sure thing, my friend. The book is very readable and entertaining, in my opinion. But in order to avoid getting off into the weeds too much here I’ll post a more detailed comment on the book thread in the forums for you. I’d like to go into a little more in depth so I’ll do it there.

@Kidfried Didn't save the link unfortunately, it was a news article that my housemate showed me a couple of years ago.

@mantralux they're not rewriting history, they made a game plain
and simple which isn't meant to be 100% historically accurate. All they have done is brought attention to said inaccuracies and aren't perpetuating sexism in any way. My point was is that it could be more jarring seeing the scene incorrectly and it being pointed out then for it simply to have been correct. I can't say I saw many online stating it was wrong until the game itself told us so, so if one thing is clear is that as a teaching tool it has worked

As a final note, maybe for real this time, let me say that there are many ways history can be misrepresented that could cause potential harm. The skin color of vikings and the gender makeup of classrooms in ancient Egypt are not among them, especially if the inaccuracy is highlighted and not presented as fact

editing History is wrong period, how else are we supposed to learn form the mistakes of mankind if it's painted over with rose tinted glasses

@Kidfried No definitely a real article. Was in Swedish though, so maybe that's why you can't find it. Not everything is a conspiracy, I could have just easily just used it as a hypothetical example.

@Kidfried cheers 😁 (I'm sure I'll just get back to bashing EA at some point 😉), I normally avoid Assassin's Creed games out of some blind prejudice but thought I'd give the series another look with Origins and I'm very glad that I did. One way or another with the inclusion of this virtual tour it's got plenty of people talking and particularly about inclusion so that can only be a good thing regardless of how any of us think it was handled.

@Kidfried That's fine, it's not important whether you believe it or not.

@carlos82 Assassin's Creed has been a very hit-and-miss franchise for me. 1, 3 and Unity I found boring. 2, Black Flag and now Origins I have found compelling. (I have yet to play Syndicate.) Black Flag was previously my favorite AssCreed game because great fun and also pirates. But Origins has superceded it. Great well-realized setting, great main character, great story and what feels to me at least like much improved gameplay and game flow.