Ever since Sony's PlayStation 5 games reveal event, we've seen a flurry of next-generation titles announced at various different digital events. We're quite excited about pretty much all of them, but one game which really caught our eye here at Push Square was Dustborn. Revealed as part of GamesRadar's Future Games Show, this looks set to be an experience all about the concept of weaponising words. It's supported by a diverse cast of characters and in an effort to learn more, we caught up with the game's lead writer and creative director.
Push Square: For those who didn't catch the Future Games Show, could you introduce yourself and Dustborn? What sort of game is it?
Ragnar Tørnquist: Sure! My name is Ragnar Tørnquist, I’m the lead writer and creative director of Dustborn; a third-person road trip action-adventure about a band of outcasts and misfits travelling across a near-future Divided States of America. In this colourful and slightly oddball alternate-history setting, our crew of Anomals (not a typo!) wield weaponised words against the authoritarian regime standing in their way...and the fanatical technocrats chasing them. It’s a game about hope, friendship, love, and the power of words. Also robots. Lots and lots of robots.
What did the team learn during its time developing Dreamfall Chapters that has been incorporated into Dustborn?
Oh, a great deal. With Dreamfall Chapters and Draugen we were able to experiment with branching narratives and dialogue, choices and consequences, and AI companions — all of which are central to Dustborn. We’re taking those features and game mechanics to the next level, mixing it with a graphic-novel inspired art style, and making words and language matter, not just in interpersonal relationships, narrative choices and puzzles, but also in combat. The idea of “weaponised words” is a key feature that touches every part of the game, as we explore themes of disinformation and propaganda, manipulation and deception. In Dustborn, words can be used to affect people emotionally, but they can also have physical effects. Words have actual power!
Dustborn takes the idea of weaponising words to heart by literally making them a part of combat. How does this play out in gameplay? Is this a turn-based title where you select words from a menu or is it more of a real-time experience which allows you to utilise phrases at will?
Dustborn is a real-time experience, and using weaponised words in combat and conversations will often require quick thinking and split-second choices. The way words are used in different situations differ mechanically, but the idea is the same: you can threaten and coerce, charm and distract, use positive and negative reinforcement to manipulate your friends and foes. Context and intent matter, however, and a word, sentence or emotion won’t necessarily have the same effect on an enemy combatant as it will on a crew-member or innocent bystander. Understanding that context, understanding how intent shapes language, is important to progressing in the game.
How will the fact that protagonist Pax is pregnant play into the story and gameplay?
It will have a pretty significant impact, and it’s also the impetus behind the story: Pax is looking for a way out of her current situation, a new beginning for her unborn child, and that’s why she’s put together the crew and embarked on this dangerous journey across America. But the pregnancy will also have major implications on certain game mechanics...without going into any details at this stage.
Dustborn sports a stunning art style. What was the inspiration behind this aesthetic?
Art director Christoffer Grav is an illustrator who’s worked with books and comics, in addition to games. The art style of Dustborn is basically his personal style, and it was obvious to us that we needed to make a game that specifically reflected that style, along with comic books and graphic novels in general. We’re using a lot of visual language from graphic novels, both in the 3D art and the user interface and user experience, but of course translating that into something that works in a game.
During what really feels like a time of change, how important was it to the team to lead with a black, female protagonist?
It’s always important for us to create characters who reflect different backgrounds, different experiences and perspectives, and who have new stories to tell — stories that are typically not well-represented in video games. Pax’s character emerged from that philosophy, but also from the narrative and setting. She was always this character in this world. And from the moment Dustborn was conceived, it was fundamentally important to us to put Pax front and centre. Of course, we just happened to announce this game at a time when systemic violence against black people is coming into stark focus, and when the world is taking a firm stand against oppression and racism, which probably casts a different light on our creative choices. But representation and diversity in popular media and video games have always been important issues, and an area where we’ve all fallen short, especially as game developers. We hope Dustborn can play a small role in improving that situation.
Was representation at the core of Dustborn's design? If so, how else has the game diversified its cast of characters?
Dustborn is a game about a particular group of friends: immigrants, exiles, outcasts, misfits, outsiders, refugees. It’s about people who stand apart from society, rather than being part of it, and who are looking for a way out, the road to a better life and more rewarding future. And yes, we wanted this group of people to reflect not just the diversity of America, but the diversity of our players: ethnically, culturally, sexually, religiously, in terms of gender roles and identities, and economic status. Our greatest hope is that we can reach and touch players who aren’t used to seeing someone who looks or sounds like them in a video game, and to perhaps make them feel seen and heard.
Dustborn is planned for launch on PS5 next year. We'd like to thank Ragnar Tørnquist for taking the time to answer our questions and Charlene Lebrun for making the interview possible. Do you like the sound of Dustborn? Will you be keeping your eye on it as we approach its release? Share your thoughts in the comments below.
Comments 29
It’s really intriguing, the concept is brilliant and I’m loving that art style. With how long games take to reach even this point, it’s clear that the game almost accidentally became more timely due to the BLM protests but it’s always good to see more characters with different backgrounds, I’m sure we’re all a little fed up of the old ‘man with gun on front cover’.
@nessisonett I will speak for myself by saying I agree that we need different kind of characters. I love meeting characters that are something new, something I had never the chance to play before.
But couldn't we do that without identity politics? We should just let the devs create the characters they want, with all the complexity that a human being has (within the necessity of said game, of course, some games do benefit from a "man with a gun"), without having them feeling pressure to go any specific direction, be it artistically or sociologically...
@Olmaz The article clearly says that they created her character to fit the world they created, these games take ages in development so they couldn’t foresee this current social situation. Identity politics is a buzzword used by people who don’t fully understand what it entails, it’s where people follow political movements and parties which share an identifying characteristic with them. So for example, a gay Republican saying ‘Vote for us, gay people, I’m gay’. This is not that. This is creating a character that is not white or a man, which currently is seen as the norm in gaming due to years of bias from the developers being primarily from that background. White men are still absolutely the majority of main leads and the small minority of games with a different main lead are singled out by a lot of ‘gamers’ as evidence of the devs being woke or some other stupid derogatory nitpicking. For gaming to survive, it needs to evolve and hearing stories born of different backgrounds, whether that’s social class, sexuality, race, gender etc, it’s extremely important. New Hollywood in the 70s for example, told stories of the marginalised and broke previous conceptions of cinema to the point that our current Hollywood scene owes them a great deal. This current crop of indie games that do things a little differently could hopefully impact the way AAA studios approach games.
@nessisonett Or you can let artist and entertainers produce whatever they want to produce without imposing your political views on them.
You see, your answer is so stereotypical of the many conversations I've had with people this last decade (and especially these last 5 years) that it hurts me. Let me make that clear : WE AGREE!!! We both say that characters in game should be diverse and genuine and interestingly different. But the problem is people want to bring their political views into that very simple artistic fact that more difference is better. Don't do that, you don't need to. Because you do that, you make people that agree with you want to distance themselves from you, because you sound like a preaching fundamentalist.
"Identity politics" is referring to the worldview that most of our sociological structures and our individual roles are dictated by power and discrimination mechanisms towards (more or less vaguely) defined groups. That may be your view, no problem, but when discussing with people, don't expect them to see everything in the world (including art and entrtainment) with that specific lens. You can analyse for yourself and decide whether or not a product adheres to your worldiew, but you can't ask for anyone to adhere to it as if it was the only truth.
Please reconsider these kind of responses, for the sake of the things you try to defend, most of which, I am sure, I agree to.
Edit : modified a few letters, damn that mild dyslexia!
Great interview, Liam! I wasn't overly keen when I watched the recent reveal, but there are clearly some really interesting ideas at play here.
This looks like Echoes Act 2 the game. It definitely has my interest.
@Olmaz Sincere question - is there a space for analyzing games through a sociopolitical lens that falls short demanding adherence? How can someone make a moral case for something like diversity in games without it being received as an imposition?
@turntSNACO Well maybe we could see "diversity in games" as something else than a moral case, simply as an artistic necessity. If an art/entertainment form does not try to be more and more diverse as it grows in size, it becomes stale and therefore unattractive.
No need to inject our view of morality into that claim.
Now, as for the sociological part of the question (since morality and sociology are not the same, even if they have evident links), when you analyse a game, you can of course chose to approach it from a sociological standpoint : trying to see how it represents the society in which it is produced, and how it can influence that society in return. And my guess is that any creator is going to ask themself that question at one point before releasing their product to the public.
he problem, imo, is when we expect creators to produce things based on what WE personnally understand and interpret from our observations of the world, especially nowadays as we can make these expectations very clear and loud for the creator. This pressure (and it can come from any part of the polictical spectrum) can be harmful to the art, since it hinders creators to do what they would like to do, but instead make them feel like they have a responsibility to respond (positively or not) to these expectations... Imo (again) we should strive to make art and artists as free as possible from this kind of pressure, and just let them be creative...
I'm not sure if what I said answered exactly your question, so don't hesitate to tell me if I misunderstood what you asked!
@3MonthBeef "If they find value in "identity politics" as you put it then that's their prerogative."
On that point, you got me. I will only say that the way the interview was conducted and the way the devs answered (and the way the media are acting now and these last years) made me think that they felt some kind of obligation to address the subject. But maybe it was their point from the beginning, if so all the more power to them.
For example, do you think they could have say : "Oh, the choice of character, no, it's not political, Andy drew that one day and we loved the design, it doesn't mean anything, don't try to make it something it's not" and it would have received positive response? Imo, I doubt it...
Well, the "identity politics" part was because of the heavy references during the interviews, and the use of the BLM movement in the OP I responded to. And why should "identity politics" be more charged than what it is? A political view that base its fundamentals principles on the way people identifie themselves as individuals within a society is "identity politics", and it's a valid view, just not the only one.
And lastly, of course nothing can be judged in vacuum, but it's up to the creator to decide what their influence will be, and we should be wary before speaking of political views as if they were matter of fact, as if not adhering to them would be considered anathema, especially when talking to an artist. I know zero external influence is impossible, I'm not arguing for that, I'm just asking for less political/ideological pressure to be put on game makers.
How would you react if most of the game medias were lauding a game because the main character was a catholic nun, specifically because the media was mostly catholic?
@Olmaz Being from a Catholic family, I’m not sure many would be chuffed if you ran around as a nun but I have to say, I would play that game to death, that’s a great example 😂😂
@nessisonett Well it all depends on the kind of nun I guess!
@Kidfried You may have been right 10 years ago, but today...?
I mean, do you know any developper of consequent size who doesn't have a diversity manager (or something similar)? Have you heard even one dev saying : "no, I don't agree with what is going on with these identities right now"? The last time I remembered someting close to this happening was with Warhorse Studios and Kingdom Come : Deliverance, and they were immediately shunned on social media.
I mean, what more evidence do you need?
Another example : during the Sony conference for the PS5, only one of the protagonist from all the games presented was a white male (and even then, it was Agent 47 from Hitman, so it doesn't count ). I'm not saying it's bad or good, I care only if the characters are interesting, but aren't you seeing a clear trend that can't be attributed to just coincidence?
Don't forget that to be forced can mean a lot of things, and can be very insidious sometimes. You don't need your boss to threaten to fire you to feel pressured to do something. Especially now with social media being so overwhelmingly present...
Does this guy really speak like that? This is just an email Q&A right? Otherwise you might have spoken to a robot. The amber lights are flashing on my Turing Test Machine
@Kidfried Message 1/2
Hmmm, I’m not sure what you expect from me… but let me try :
« I don't remember ever having seen a game dev having to have a diversity manager »
That’s why I said « diversity manager or something similar ». Sometimes, it’s not the only job of one particular person, but it’s spread throughout the HR and PR division of the company. How to know that there is someone that checks the diversity in the company and make sure inclusion is maintain at a high level ? You look at the company’s pages :
Microsoft : https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/diversity/default.aspx
EA : https://www.ea.com/careers/diversity-and-inclusion
Activistion/Blizzard : https://assets.phenompeople.com/CareerConnectResources/ACPUUS/en_us/desktop/assets/images/EEO%20-Policy-Annual-Renewal-2020.pdf
Ubisoft (Blue Byte studio, but you can find this kind of page for almost every Ubisoft studio) https://bluebyte.ubisoft.com/en/our-engagements/diversity-inclusion/
also Ubisoft, read the end of the leaked mail from Yves Guillemot : https://news.ubisoft.com/en-us/article/7yV2TRI9Zj3G545bnoc3ub/change-starts-today
Sony : https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/diversity/program/
I could go on. Just because it is not named specifically « diversity manager » doesn’t mean that this job does not exist. Pages, workplace culture, actions, programs do not appear out of thin air and that means there are people leading them, and leading the company in that direction.
« That's not even true, from the top of my head I remember seeing GTA 5, Ghostwire Tokyo and Resident Evil Village. »
For the PS5 presention, you are nitpicking but I will admit to a lack of precision in my words :
So, as I said, I should have been more precise and say « no game from any of the main PS5 presentation (excluding the pre-presentation) showed a white male protagonist ». But if you are expecting this level of precision from my part, don’t you think you are just trying to counter my argument with little meaningless precisions. My point was, and still is, that during the most important video game presentation of 2020, we see that the incredibly vast majority of the characters we are going to play as next gen are not going to be white males.
@Kidfried Message 2/2
« Point that I'm trying to make is: don't make stuff up please. »
I’m not. I take very seriously what I say and do my best to not just throw things around. That doesn’t mean that I’m never wrong, hell, as is everybody, I’m at least partly wrong almost all of the time, and therefore I welceome it when people gives me new information that forces me to reevaluate my positions. But you haven’t done so up til now.
And can you blame me in thinking that game devs feel more and more pressured into making more diverse characters for the sake of it ? You’ve seen all the links I put in this mail, to that you can add all the news with official statement from companies about « inclusion », « diversity », « communities » and « empowerment ». And finally, just observe the incredible reactions on internet to every little details relative to video games, and you’ll see a major exponential shift these last 5 years towards negative reaction when characters have been shown as not diverse enough. Are you really arguing that’s not the case ?
Now another, and arguably more easy to defend, standpoint would be to say the game devs are evolving with the income of new employees who are giving more importance to diversity themselves, therefore changing the company’s culture. That could be interesting to discuss (even though a bit of a chicken/egg conundrum) but saying that there’s no pressure put on game devs today to ensure a certain amount of diversity is presented to the public seems really unrealistic to me.
I understand you being irritated by what I say. I get irritated when people say things I don’t like, and even more so when there’s a good chance what they say is true. And I think I get even more irritated when interpretations are being put against each other, as we get into subjective territory so "proving" your interpretation is absolutely true is therefore impossible, making the discussion even more frustrating.
But if I may ask (and maybe with that we can stop the very lengthy messages with links and counterlinks), why is that subject so important to you ? For me, it’s important because it’s an insidious cultural shift that limits expression and does it using peer and social pressure. I have seen these kind of shift personnally (albeit about different subjects) and I can vouch for their incredible (and mostly nefarious) power and speed, that’s why I try to tell people to not inject their ideological/political views into everything, or at least to do so with the expectation that people will not always agree with them, and that’s ok.
@Royalblues I'm not sure if your message was directed to me, but just in case, here's my 5 cents :
"Get a black main character and suddenly it is political?" Well, when the interviewer himself ask a question about political matters and how it's linked to the choice of character, and then the devs answers in similar terms, how can you blame anyone to see a political statement?
"Why is it that whenever we get a black character people say it is diversity for the sake of diversity and not for a good story? Like the two are mutually exclusive." Who did make that statement, ever? I personally did exactly the contrary, asking people to leave politics out of devs choices and letting them tell the story they want, with as less influence as possible. Imo, pushing for diversity for diversity's sake (and especially if it's in fear of/pandering to social media) is not a good creative endeavour, but I understand where people defending it come from.
"To me, people who make that argument were never intending to get the product because of that fact, because the main character was black, and are not worth talking to, to be honest." Now you are strawmanning a lot. I'm not saying people like you're describing don't exist, of course they do, but putting everyone that don't agree with how you view this issue as someone "not worth talking to" brings the high risk to close yourself off from other opinions, other points of view.
@Kidfried "Because "representation in video games" is something different from "representation within the workstaff"."
Can we agree they are heavily linked though? A company that is pushing for diversity in the staff will end up, voluntarily or not, with more representation of that diversity in its product
"I'm not nitpicking about the presentation. You are nitpicking in your defense." Can we say we're both nitpicking then... which make the conversation about the broader trends and shifts within the industry if a general statement is countered by small details. And by the way, I admitted the 3 instances you said, so for a nitpicking person, that looks very understanding to me
"I refer to articles like this: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/01/developer-publishers-didnt-want-a-female-lead-in-our-video-game/"
Well, you're speaking about an article from 2015 and a game from 2013. I've said repeatedly that the last 5 years were when the exponential shift happened.
Let's take more recent articles :
29/01/2020 : https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-01-28-the-industry-is-becoming-more-diverse-and-more-developers-support-inclusion-efforts
04/02/2020 : https://news.microsoft.com/en-gb/2020/02/04/xbox-teams-up-with-ukie-to-raisethegame-on-diversity-in-the-gaming-sector/
19/02/2020 : https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/feb/19/video-games-industry-diversity-women-people-of-colour
16/03/2020 : https://www.stemwomen.co.uk/blog/2020/03/uk-gaming-industry-looking-to-level-up-in-gender-diversity
23/06/2020 : https://www.pocketgamer.biz/news/73721/ea-details-diversity-efforts-in-game-development/
That’s just a few of the many articles just in 2020… and every each one of them makes the link between the diversity in the workforce, the public and the content of the games.
« What we've been seeing from devs in recent years is that they're having more freedom to feature whoever they want in their game. That is the point I'm trying to make. »
Look, I’m not saying that it was better before : when every publisher pushed for big white military dudes on the cover, it was boring af. And I love the fact that games are being more diverse, more interesting. I just would like people to not try and enforce that diversity because of their political views every time the subject of, for example, character choice comes up.
This developer has some really interesting ideas, and I like the art style. Great to see a next generation game that thinks of completely new types of game play, I hope they pull it off.
And it's always nice to see more diversity and reprensentation in games. I hope this turns out to be one well worth checking out, sounds like it has a lot of potential. Being a launch game, I can see a lot of people playing this one.
@LieutenantFatman The game is due out next year, it's not planned for the PS5 launch.
@Olmaz
I honestly don't see the problem here, sadly a lot of society is sexist, racist, discriminates, etc. That is the unfortunate truth and the reality we live in. We all have unconscious bias. If a developer or publisher chooses to make positive efforts to be more inclusive and look to challenge people's preconceptions then I support them in that endeavour. If you dislike it, then you don't have to buy or play the game, there are plenty of other games to choose from.
@LiamCroft
Ok, thanks! I misread the wording of the final paragraph about the release date.
@LieutenantFatman I think there is a problem of miscommunication here. I've checked my comments, and at no points did I ever say or even imply that game devs should not make games more diverse and inclusive. Quite the contrary, I've expressed multiple times how I like to have games with different characters, and new ways of imagining story. So I don't understand you reaction to what I said.
I'm just saying that the decision to be more diverse, or to agree with a political/ideological movement should be left to the devs, and shouldn't be imposed on to them by us (meaning mainly social media and the "official" media outlet).
For example, let's take this interview, the last 2 questions were heavily charged and showed that there was some expectations. Do you really think the devs could have said "oh come on, don't start with BLM, we don't care about that here, we're just making games" and not have a terrible backlash in the coming days?
We live in a day where one of the most prominent contemporay writers is being "cancelled" as much as possible because she said "people who menstruate are women", and other things like that, expressing her views on that issue. How would you react as a creator in this context when asked about diversity, gender, race and representation?
All I'm saying is that we should be careful of the way we try to impose our views onto others. I'd prefer to see really diverse games, not just with different characters, but also with different ideological and political views. It would be interesting in my opinion to play a game openly racist or sexist. Not because I am, but because it would be fascinating to learn how people who think like that view the world. The opposite is true, playing game heavily influenced by the LGBT community is very enoyable, because it's a window into a world that I barely know.
So again, let the devs make whatever they want, don't ask heavily charged questions, don't insult them online or try to cancel them because they don't express the exact same views as yours, don't create a context where expressing nuanced views can be risky, and it's all good with me!
@JapaneseSonic I included you in this comment as I think it answers your question too...
@Olmaz
I'm not convinced by your argument but not to worry. We can't all agree on everything
Seeing as you've dominated the comments here, any thoughts on the game itself?
@JapaneseSonic On that point, I agree completely! Which is why it's even more important let devs decide where they stand on these issues!
@LieutenantFatman You're absolutely right, it was disrespectful to the devs from me to respond to this article without saying that I think the games look very interesting, as per the gameplay mechanics and the art design. I still have to see how it feels while playing and if it doesn't get too repetitive, but it's clearly on my radar!
Also : "dominated" my oh my, what a icky word, I really hope my comments didn't come out as trying to be "dominating", as it was not my intenttion at all!
@Royalblues WTactualF?!
Strawmanning to an extend I've rarely seen, just wow! Are you always judging people you don't know based on your biased interpretation of what they say? You must be a real fun at parties!
But since you don't want to speak to me, I'll respect your wish and .
leave it at that.
Adios
@Olmaz JK Rowling isn’t a good example to use. Her political and social beliefs have nothing to do with her literary output and in fact, the devs making the HP game are actively distancing themselves from her. She also didn’t say ‘people who menstruate are women’, she insinuated that people who don’t menstruate aren’t women. Which is hilarious because plenty cisgender women don’t menstruate for a multitude of reasons.
@nessisonett I've never really cared about Rowling, but nevertheless I don't agree with both your points :
‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud? (https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1269382518362509313)
It says very clearly that "people who menstruate are called women", not that "people who don’t menstruate aren’t women" which is a blatantly ill-intentioned misrepresentation of this tweet.
@Olmaz Bud, I think you might be vastly overestimating the power of Twitter and Facebook. You're also leaning a lot on the D Trump rhetorical device of "a lot of people are saying..." and the Fox News/Daily Mail approach of alluding to faceless bogeymen. I do respect you for genuinely trying to articulate your view and not just force it though. That said, I think most people here just simply don't agree with you that social pressure is having either a) a significant impact on the creative process of game designers/writers, or b) a detrimental impact on said process.
@Olmaz Unrelated to my earlier comment, just responding to the Rowling stuff. She posted that tweet in response to a headline using using the phrase "people who menstruate". The publisher of that article used that phrase instead of "women", presumably because they either wanted to include trans men who menstruate in the conversation or wanted to avoid suggesting that people who do not menstruate at not women (probably both). I don't think I'm making a leap to suggest that this was their thinking, since they would've just said "women" if they weren't trying to be trans-inclusive.
So I think nessisonett's interpretation is mostly correct (though I think her target was trans men more so than trans women). The context matters here - she took umbrage (pun intended) at an editor using trans-inclusive language so she wrote her sarcastic little tweet, seemingly without considering those who would be hurt by it.
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