The Last of Us: Part II, for lack of a better phrase, has pissed some people off. Whatever your opinion on the game – and you’re welcome to share your impressions in our full spoiler discussion – we’d like to hope you were able to express yourself without resorting to posting personal insults on the Internet. Unfortunately, many can’t resist the opportunity to be aggressive, obnoxious, and downright disgusting – and it’s something Naughty Dog vice president Neil Druckmann has discussed as part an interview with ex-Nintendo boss Reggie Fils-Aime.
“I think you have to create some separation to say, we made this game, we believe in this game, we're proud of this game, now it's out there and it's like whatever reaction people have – whether they like it or not – that's fair. That's their reaction and you don't fight that,” he started. “The other thing with the more hateful stuff, the more vile stuff, that's a little harder. It's especially harder when I see it happening to team members or cast members who play a particular character in the game.”
Druckmann continued: “We have an actress, she's been getting really awful, vile stuff because of a fictional character she's playing in the game. I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around that. The thing I try to do is just ignore it as much as I can. When things escalate to being serious, there are certain security protocols that we take and I report it to the proper authorities. Then you just try to focus on the positives and focus on distracting yourself with other stuff. But it's kind of just the reality.”
It's a topic that Druckmann has been discussing with Chernobyl writer Craig Mazin, as the pair work on an HBO adaptation of the franchise. “He articulated it pretty well: it's like people have to get educated. This is kind of the cost. When you're doing something big, and you might disappoint fans, there is a cost to it now. Which is, you're going to get a certain level of hate, a certain level of vitriol that you just have to deal with. There is no other way to make it go away.”
From our perspective, it’s exhausting seeing the Internet so angry on a daily basis. Clearly there's a wide spectrum of opinions all pertaining to The Last of Us: Part II, and it’s a positive thing that the game has stirred such a strong response. The vitriol is pure toxic, though, and there’s simply no need for it.
[source soundcloud.com, via gamespot.com]
Comments 99
Please remember to keep any spoiler discussion in the thread for that: https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2020/06/talking_point_the_last_of_us_2_spoilers_discussion
Thanks!
And that’s why people don’t deserve nice things. I’d rather games went for something new and exciting than trying to please everyone. You don’t make breakthroughs while retreading the past.
@nessisonett I completely agree.
From the dawn of the Internet people behave like that because they know (in most cases) nothing will come to them.
Attacking an actress just because you do not like a character is just madness.
But unfortunately there is no way to stop this so it is better to just ignore it.
Hey all, I'm quite slow getting through games due to work and children commitments. Currently about 12 hours in and Ellie is heading towards a hospital, game is great so far! At this stage I don't get what all the fuss is about, unless something is about to happen that needs me to post furious things online but seems unlikely.
Well I finished it the other day, I did love the game, story honestly still not sure, think a 2nd play through will be needed. First game was amazing and was going to be tough to beat that storytelling. These people hating just need to chill out, ok maybe you didn't agree with how the story went but that's not up to you to decide it's up to Nd themselves on how they want to carry the story on, ppl with their vile comments should just grow up and learn to accept what Nd delivered, fine if you didn't like it but there is no need to post vile comments.
I've never seen anything quite like the outrage surrounding The Last of Us: Part II. The game's mere existence has apparently driven some people mad, and all this emerging stuff between developers and members of the press is frankly ridiculous.
I understand we live in quite tense times, but bloody hell, it's ultimately just a video game. And I say that as someone who writes about video games for a living!
I mean here is the thing - regardless of legitimate critique of the game, the vitriol and online hate is just disgusting and completely unncessary. This is a game that even if terrible, just needs a sensible, didn't like it response.
The game is a very good game. I think, and I am only something like 16 hours in, that is has a few problems but never for a second would I spread online hate or even dismiss based on pre-conceptions.
I'd argue as well that ND's reaction to legitimate critique has been handled badly and I don't think the story embargo was a good practice. However we need to not confuse the two - they are separate points.
All this vitriol just means companies will want to play it safer in future.
Some of the stuff I have seen towards the actors is disgusting and shows the gaming community in a bad light. Also demonstrates why developers stick to the same kind of games scared to take a risk due to hate or backlash. Also some of the big youtubers have jumped on this for views and clicks and should also be held accountable for the hate they helped incite.
@Zuljaras yea that's the problem with the internet people can create fake accounts and post vile stuff about people knowing that there is no consequence. I've always thought it would be good to have one unique username for everything that's directly linked to you, so if you decide to post vile comments and threaten people at least then it can be Linked directly back to you and then the authorities can take action if needed. But obviously for people in certain countries this could be a massive problem regarding speaking against the state, but something definitely needs to be done in fighting these people who hide behind annomintty.
@Rudy_Manchego Exactly! People need to learn to express their opinion without resorting to superlatives. It's perfectly okay to say that you didn't enjoy the game; don't need to go on some curse-laden rampage to get your point across.
Irritating!
I get the whole 'I'm pi$$ed off because they use the game to push an agenda' complaint, although I'm not entirely sure if the particular game deserves it, but ...
Attacking the actress the character is based on? That's like attacking the mailman because he's bringing you the electricity bill. It's stupid.
Haters are gonna hate regardless, I played to the end and I’m going through it again on a second play through. A lot of people who have gone on negatively about the game I’ve haven’t played to the end or haven’t played it or just have a nasty way about them anyway.
We currently live in an era of offence, so it’s to be expected I suppose🤔
The harassment is awful of course but Neil Druckmann has to accept that he and ND have brought it on themselves with their unwillingness to listen to any kind of critique (see them strong arming a Polygon review which like the refund demands aren't been reported).
The seemingly constant pushing of political agendas and working conditions of their studio. Not to mention what they did in the story.
Whether you like it or not ND have burned a lot of bridges with this that even doing a Part 3 that retcons large parts of Part 2 will get everyone back on side.
@get2sammyb Normally I would agree but imagine feeling like your opinion isn't been listened or respected. It's very easy to start throwing out insults after that.
It's okay to not like the game or the story, but it's not okay to harass people because of it 😕
While I'm not too fond of the story, I found tlou 2 gameplay really good. Just fight my first seraphite and man the game is fun again, the stalker fight before is horrifying thought lol.
I think ND can make a really good metal gear solid / splinter cell style stealth games.
@AdamNovice They need to focus on telling the stories they want to tell. They didn't push any political agendas in this game as far as I can tell, and the working conditions of their studio has nothing to do with the story they wanted to tell.
I think they should respect fans, but I don't think they should necessarily listen to them. If they're going to start pandering to the expectations of people that play their games then they're effectively ceding creative control.
Some of the comments I've seen directed at Neil and Laura have been pretty disgraceful
I commend Druckmann and Naughty Dog for making the game they wanted to make
Some people are just pathetic, I've just seen someone on Facebook saying people aren't true fans and know nothing about video games if they like this game. If you don't like a game voice your opinion by all means but move on with your life and find something you do like. This constant need to attack this game and those that do enjoy it is absolutely ridiculous.
Whether they want to admit it or not this game is easily one of the best of the generation and I for one I'm glad they have dared to do something different and not just give us another sequel following the same characters. Heaven forbid there may be more than one point of view towards your actions in a game and consequences for such actions. I'm just glad some developers dare to do something different and not just play it safe
The whole thing is embarrassing.
Naughty Dog took some risks and whether they paid off for you or not that should be applauded. If people don't take risks we end up with Coldplay. Everything Coldplay. All middle of road, totally unsurprising, dull as dishwater Coldplay.
Some people just want things to play out as they've already planned out in their heads and anything that challenges that is like an affront. What did they want? A buddy cop adventure with Joel and Ellie with a thumping '80s soundtrack?
Safe sequels lead to stagnating franchises.
Stop hammering away into your keyboards and abusing developers because you didn't get to play as the beardy man you cretins.
@ShogunRok This! I don't understand what's the beef some press have with ND. Jason Schreier in particular (whom I used to have in high regards) seems to just love sending snarky comments and whip the twitter mob into a frenzy against ND. It's getting embarrassing at this point.
@johncalmc "What did they want? A buddy cop adventure with Joel and Ellie with a thumping '80s soundtrack?"
That would've been pretty amazing tbh. Maybe Naughty Dog's next project.
@Athrum It's baffling what's happened to Jason Schreier these last few years. He's turned into the human embodiment of Twitter snark, and has zero self-awareness of how much of a pompous, mean-spirited ass he comes across as. Amazing journalist, but a deplorable, thin-skinned media personality.
Also, **** those *****ng ****s that keep harassing Naughty Dog and the actors for (god forbid) taking big gambles with their storytelling. God forbid we try new things!
@ShogunRok this is a spot in comment. People really need to get a grip.
@get2sammyb The working conditions have a lot to do with the game. For a start many have said the game's too long. I imagine the devs might have had less crunch and overtime if the creatives didn't feel the need to pad the story out for another 12 hours. Not to mention that a former employee went on record saying that devs were let go if they didn't share the same political outlook as the rest of the team.
The agenda pushing isn't as heavy handed as I feared but it's there, "bigot sandwiches" a library with a gay literature section that served no purpose then to remind people that Ellie and Dina are gay, and a character who's entire trait is that he's trans. Compare that to Bill in the first game I can come up with a fair few things to describe him before mentioning that he's gay.
You also say ND lose creative control if they "pander" to fans but some of the greatest creative endeavors have come through limitations. Yes ND should try to take risks but there's a fine line between risk and wreckless. You only have to ask Star Wars and Game of Thrones fans what happens when the creators take liberties with characters they have come to love.
I'm deep into the game and still don't understand why it has generated so much hate.
You might not like certain choices but you should respect them anyway. The game is technically absolutely amazing and many of the level designs are outstanding, capable of creating nerve-shredding tension whilst still being fun to play. The score, the sound design, the acting, the animations etc etc everything is top notch.
I applaud ND for not making a standard sequel, one that just sets out to continue the wacky adventures of Joel and Ellie. After all, the title is The Last Of Us Part II not The Joel & Ellie Show.
@johncalmc So people wanting another Joel and Ellie story is being "safe" now?
@Col_McCafferty But it is called Part 2, implying it's continuing Joel and Ellie's story which it fails to do so becasuse ND saw fit to want to introduce a load of new characters with next to no character depth and tossing away the dynamic that made the first game special.
How can anybody say bad words about Laura Bailey? She's one of the best VAs around. It's not her fault that her character Teed off on Joel's swede
We live in a world of vitriol. If you don't like something - you trash it. If you REALLY don't like it, you tell everyone they are stupid for liking it. If you are halfway intelligent and can put some sentences together - you do this with as much convincing logic as you can. It is thought police either way. You aren't allowed to think this way, say this, etc.
The developers at ND are well within their rights to make whatever game, with whatever themes, and do whatever they will with their characters.
BUT - if developers are allowed to do that - then so are anyone on the internet allowed to reject those themes, and poor handling of characters.
The bottom line is - either everyone is allowed the freedom to choose what they think is best - or no one is. You can't have something in the middle.
If ND wanted all roses and platitudes, they made the wrong game.
@AdamNovice I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on some of these to be honest! 🙏
@AdamNovice I didn't say that. They could have done risky stories with Ellie and Joel, too. Just saying that it seems some of the "fans" threw their toys out of the pram because the story didn't go in the direction they'd imagined.
@AdamNovice People wanting another adventure very similar to the first is being relatively "safe" yes. It doesn't mean that there is no merit whatsoever to that approach, or that it might not even have been even better, but it is a safer option.
And none of the parts you mentioned are "agenda pushing" besides possibly the sandwiches section, but if this is meant to be our world destroyed, it's perfectly plausible that someone older who came up completely in the old world would have had a tougher time letting past biases go. Why is it wrong to show an LGBT bookstore given that the outbreak day was during a period when they were present in big cities? Ellie and Dina not knowing what the flag meant was actually one of the most poignant moments for me.
And being trans isn't that character's only trait. It also isn't brought up until they've been around for a bit, and is never explicitly mentioned again. That entire aspect could have been removed, along with Ellie and Dina's sexualities, and this entire story could have been told. In fact, this story outline could have had some dude and his supportive girlfriend on a virtually similar journey and have been largely the same. You'd need to make extremely slight alterations to achieve the same thing. But that's what representation is, they are there. It's not "agenda pushing" to have non-hetero, non-cisgender characters.
I agree with your points on the PR aspect of this and how ND is trying to sweep people bringing up points regarding plot development and narrative structure into the "well you just hate us for having LGBT characters so you're bigoted" crowd. The story embargo after the leaks was always going to hit them back, and they should have seen it coming. Their shortsighted blanket approach to criticism is on them. But that's separate from the game itself.
"From our perspective, it’s exhausting seeing the Internet so angry on a daily basis."
100% agreed. It gets old when there's a new topic that people are getting angry at on the internet every. single. day!
@AdamNovice It does though, it just doesn't give some fans what they had hoped for.
Maybe it would've been better if ND hadn't taken the game in the direction they chose, we'll never know. Personally I have loved almost every single second I've spent in their world and think they should be praised for being as bold as they have been.
It's still very much a game though and a good one at that. Even if you're not onboard with the story you can't deny that it's extremely well made and put together. I initially took my time with it and restricted my playing time (in order to savour the story and world and explore every single nook and cranny) but now I want to see what happens next as quickly as possible.
I've been blown away by it, even more than I thought I would be. It's a shame that others haven't enjoyed their experience with the game anywhere near as much but so be it, you can't please everyone all of the time and there are plenty of other games out there which you may find more worthy of your time.
I avoided spoilers, but still heard some rumblings regarding 'agendas'.
I admit, and have said previously, that I was mildly concerned. Not because I disagreed with the subject of the supposed agenda, but purely because - regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the topic - I don't feel it's right to push opinions/beliefs on others.
Having now completed the game twice (got the Platinum last night) and loved every minute, it seems that it was all unfounded nonsense, based on parts of the story and a desire in some quarters to hate on Naughty Dog, Sony, LGBTQ+ people, or any combination thereof.
But interestingly, not all of the hate is coming from the internet's go-to villains ("straight white males"), either. Since I first completed the game and came out of 'spoiler defence mode', I've seen a fair bit of hate from the LGBTQ+ community too. One aspect mentioned is the "deadnaming" of Lev/Lily, which has been taken out of context by many; the other is where the same character gets sucker-punched into a garage door... the latter sometimes being viewed as "anti-Trans" violence, even though when taken in context, the character delivering the punch would have absolutely no idea about the other's gender/sexuality. When other members of that community who have played the game correct them on this, the response is often along the lines of, "Yeah, well... crunch!"
It seems that regardless of background or beliefs, some people are just determined to hate on the game and/or the devs, and if corrected on one false truth will simply switch to something else as their reason.
Now people may like or dislike the gameplay and/or the story, and that's fine. But so much of the hate is coming from people who very clearly have not played the game, and are forming opinions based on half-truths, rumours, and outright lies, often from people who almost certainly do have an agenda.
@AdamNovice I'd argue that the two are separate points. I don't think Naughty Dog brought it on themselves because regardless of whatever they chose to do, no one should get abuse and hate for releasing a game.
I agree that there is a question to be answered by ND's response to valid critique but that is very different to a lot of the online hate. I am also worried that the visuals and innovation on the game came at a human cost via crunch but again. However, that doesn't mean that abuse should be given.
Stuff like this I liken to Star Wars The Last Jedi. I seriously disliked that film as a Star Wars fan. My response was that I haven't watched it again and didn't bother with Rise of Skywalker. I didn't go online, do petitions to retcon it, abuse actors, writers, directors because I didn't like it.
EDIT - not stating that you support abuse at all!
@johncalmc The harssment is absolutely wrong and to be honest it's just making ND go into their none critique bubble even more they already were which will harm them in the long run. But some are right to be upset becasuse ND have a responsibility to the audience that made the first game the success it was and they ultimately failed on that part so they should be called out on it.
It's someone making a Legend of Zelda game with playing as Link then acting surprised when people get upset about it.
@claude I'm sorry but it's hard to ignore these things when you look at the studio's background in recent years when it comes to both their outlook and behaviours.
Youtuber RobinGaming made a great video about the whole thing called The Naughty Dog agenda.
As for the character of Lev I honestly couldn't tell what his character actually was aside from he's good with a bow and he's trans. And that was my point, the secondary characters in the first game were well written and the ones in Part 2 weren't.
@Col_McCafferty I've always said that the game is well made but it's biggest problem is that it's called The Last of Us Part 2, strongly implying it continues Joel and Ellie's story but it throws that away within the first few hours so for me it fails as a story.
@roe Someone brought up a film noir type detective setting in a different post. That or a Miami Vice 80s setting with an episodic approach that ties together in the end from ND would be incredible. It'd be a way to really bring their high quality world building and plot progression together.
@AdamNovice I've seen the comparisons between this and Star Wars/Game of Thrones but I don't think it makes sense. Star Wars is a very old franchise with several films, games and comics, GoT has several seasons over nearly 10 years and was a book previously and both had their endings basically written by somebody else other than the creators. The Last of Us had one game before this and those developers then made the sequel.
I appreciate you didn't like the direction of the story, personally I liked that you got to see whats happening in one of these games from the "bad guys" point of view and to me it felt very much a part 2 and continuation of these characters and the world they find themselves in, which often encourages them to make morally difficult decisions
@johncalmc You are wrong - the dangers are worse than that. Lack of taking risks leads to Coldplay, Coldplay leads to Keane.
@Rudy_Manchego Oh I don't want you to think I agree with the harassment and I'm sorry if it came across like that. I was more talking about the general backlash and how there seems to be a thing that anyone that doesn't like game gets called a troll. Hope you understand.
@carlos82 My point was more about how fanbases felt that fan favourite characters were mistreated or disrespected tbh.
I honestly respect that point of view you have with the game and I glad you enjoyed it.
I just hope that one day I get a game or story that involves Joel and Ellie in the way I hoped.
@Claude That was me!
Indeed, looking **POTENTIAL SPOILERS** around backstage in the theatre there are sets that look like they come from the 20's or 30's, maybe later. There's also a background painting of a New York skyline.
If people are looking for clues as to ND's next project perhaps the Theatre is an indication.
The sci-fi cards seem like a red herring to me but who knows, maybe ND are headed next for the stars!
@Rudy_Manchego
@Col_McCafferty I'd definitely prefer the city/film noir setting the sci-fi as well. Not that ND couldn't do a great job with sci-fi, but it's a much more common setting.
I look at it in a simple type of manner in how it’s effected me. I’ve bought every ND game day 1 for a long time now, including TLoU2. My buddy has as well. His wife watched him play it and my wife watched me play it as we ALL loved the first one. Well, it turned out that we enjoyed the game side of it but despised the story, all four of us. How will we handle it? Our interest in upcoming ND projects is diminished, and we most likely will NOT be purchasing them day 1. So, they’ll probably still get an eventual sale, just when it’s cheaper.
Just in case I piss anyone off and you wanna ask how I could we all not like it, Upper Echelon Gamers YouTube review covers many of our issues well if you wanna read it.
@get2sammyb Yeah — I don’t understand this “political agenda” people say ND are pushing. It doesn’t make sense to me, at least in my eyes. Is it because (MINOR SPOILER AHEAD) Ellie is gay? If so, that was known from the first game and its DLC. It’s not a shock or surprise. Hell, even before TLOU2 released there was hints at Ellie being in a relationship with another character (I’ll emit the name just for possible spoilers sake) when you see them dancing/holding each other at a party.
As for people who complain about the violence in this game, do they not remember the first one? It was just as violent, especially with Ellie and David.
I don’t know. I think the game is a masterpiece. I don’t agree with some of the story choices but I understand them. I think that is what makes the game so powerful, along with such strong writing for the characters that make them feel real, and ultimately making the world feel “real.” Sometimes, in life, things don’t work out the way you want. Sometimes, you have to live with pain. And sometimes, you have to try and let it go or forgive yourself or others for what may have happened. I think this game showcases that beautifully.
@AdamNovice Of course mate and I think that it is totally fine to have a genuine critique of the game and I think ND must have known that their direction would ruffle a few feathers in terms of fan reception. Indeed, I am slightly convinced that Sony's review embargo was specifically designed to limit that fallout.
I thought the game was fantastic except the whole island part with Lev and Abby. That whole event felt absolutely pointless and out of place. I even abandoned my usual exploring because I just wanted Abby to get back to the aquarium and find Ellie's work.
@shogunrok But video games are art, and art has forever had the power to draw extreme emotions from human beings. That's ultimately why it's such a powerful cultural force in our world. Art will always breed passionate discussions on both ends of the spectrum, in terms of peoples' emotional reactions. And when you mix that art with people's anger/fear/depression/etc. (related OR unrelated) AND the internet, it's a recipe for these kinds of hurtful actions. That's why Druckmann ultimately concedes that, "you just have to deal with it. There is no other way to make it go away." But directing this anger towards actresses that play a character in a game is obviously pointless and cruel. I maintain that it's absolutely okay to dislike something, and to have that discussion. But a lot of people can't do that without being emotionally and verbally violent towards others. And that's a part of human culture that absolutely needs to change for us to be able to move forward as a species. This reaction that's happening with the game, while hard to stomach in so many ways, is an important event that highlights ways in which human beings HAVE to grow, and be better. And the only way to grow and be better is to try to have conversations with each other, however hard that may be. Especially on the internet...
I have NOTHING in common with the gamers who have been going out of their way to ruin this game & they are the same hypocrites! who hate cancel culture so stupid & blind they cannot see they do it themselves.
@thefirst come off it months before it even came out the vile behavior started! if you are seeing that it is because some have probably got sick of all the attacks from people who NEVER played it for one.
@Kirbyboy92 they can disagree with reviewers why does it need to be reported I think they have a better take than most they made it.
@ApostateMage I have to respectfully disagree with you. Going to the island and seeing how the Seraphites lived (and died) was essential to the story because it shows us where Lev came from, and what he had to escape. The conflict between the Seraphites and the WLF is an important part of the story, highlighting how human beings get locked into these pointless violent squabbles based on point-of-view, when ultimately so many of us just want the same thing, which is to survive and to love. Obviously many others want control though, and that always leads to violence. Anyways, I'm getting sidetracked, but I thought the island was one of the most emotionally powerful scenes in the game. The relationship with Lev was Abby's redemption, and seeing what she went through to help him try to repair with his mother, who didn't see things his way, was essential to her character arc, I think.
While obviously any kind of abusive behavior is to be firmly condemned, I don't think Druckmann is in the position of being surprised by it.
I mean, of course it's gonna hurt and you hope people would be sensible and sensitive enough to not resort to that kind of vitriol, but when you make one of the most anticipated sequels in 20 years and tell everybody going in that it's not going to be for everyone cause that's the route you decide to take, well, I think you should be prepared beforehand.
It's also a real shame that decisions made by the higher-ups like Druckmann had to have repercussions on the actors, designers, etc., who were just doing their job as it was told them.
@AdamNovice "But some are right to be upset becasuse ND have a responsibility to the audience that made the first game the success it was and they ultimately failed on that part so they should be called out on it."
I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense, first of all, ND does not have any responsability to their audience regarding what they do in their games. They should take their audience in consideration, yes, obviously. But at the end of the day they do not have a responsability to us apart from delivering a playable game. It doesn't matter how much you liked the first one, how many times you bought it or replayed it. Naughty Dog doesn't really owe you any particular storyline because you felt a certain way about their games. And the second problem I have with that sentence is that you (and a lot of people who either liked it or not liked it) act like the whole fanbase is disappointed by the story, I'm a huge fan of the first and loved every second of Part 2 and I'm not alone, there is no "fanbase consensus" around Part 2 (or part 1 for that matter because the way you enjoy the second game's story depends heavily on what you took away from the first).
It's fine that you disliked it, really. It's fine that thousands did but I'm tired of seeing people write things like "the fans are disappointed", "the fans demand a story that respect the first game" whatever that means. There is no "the fans" or "the audience" we're all just a bunch of people who liked or dislike the game. You're not less or more of a fan of TLOU if you liked or disliked part 2, tons of us loved it, tons hated it. And I know it's probably not what you meant and I'm sorry if it feels I'm coming down on you, I'm not. I'm just tired of people (on both sides) saying "well the fans are disappointed so ND failed" or "the real fans loved it so grow up".
Best game I’ve played all generation, fight me.
Druckman made a game that he wanted to be contraversial. You can not say he did not anticipate what would happen online.
@Ear_wiG Yeah, I got all of that but I just wasn't feeling it. I liked the bonding between Lev and Abby on the way to the hospital, that was adorable. The island just felt like a set piece to me.
This is why the legitimate negative reviews are going to be swept under the rug while the developers only focus on the 10/10 reviews. sigh
@OmegaStriver Nah, you're good.
Yeah, I dunno, I kind of get the impression that Neil Druckmann gets a bit of a kick out of ruffling a few feathers and getting a reaction. Ironically, it seems life has imitated art and the nest he poked has stung the people around him.
Saying that, I'm glad they took the risks they did and the more time I spend with TLOU2 the more I appreciate it. As for people abusing anyone who works on/creates a piece of art or media because they chose to play/watch/listen to/look at it...well...they have a mental illness and should probably seek help about dealing with some deep rooted issue they clearly have.
This situation seems to have gone even one step further though, now with people abusing actors and creators without even playing the game. Again, another mirror of the game's theme of not knowing the full story, bizarre. I wonder how much of this was intentional on Naughty Dog's behalf in regards to the current state of society and online interaction.
@Ear_wiG Very true.
@Lyonjak at a certain point you begin playing as the hulking Abby and that's where most of the criticism comes from. We just don't care about that character but they try and make you sympathize with her. The clock turns back and you basically meet every single person that Ellie kills and see how "human" they are. Imagine some of the most hated people to ever live and you find their home videos of when they were happy and playing with their dogs and that's basically what Naughty Dog did.
@Kirbyboy92 right? they made the game are they not allowed to do that?
@Kirbyboy92 "They were contacting critics who did their job and criticised it."
You say that as if they were issuing threats and demanding changes to the review or something, but according to the article you link it was all perfectly friendly.
Zacny clarified that the exchange wasn’t “confrontational,” but that it was nonetheless “unusual,” as the site doesn’t typically have big publishers asking in an official capacity why a review reads the way it does. Such things can happen, of course, though often with smaller developers, or from publishers who have spotted a factual error in a piece that they want corrected.
“I was happy to unpack a bit of my reasoning, however, and received a perfectly cordial message in response,” Zacny said.
Of course, it couldn't possibly be that ND was contacting them to ask for more specifics about what they didn't like, so they could take it on board and consider it in future releases.
Seems like a complete non-issue to me.
Some people just want to be spoon-fed their fan service. I actually feel sorry for these people. Their attacks are an indication of a sheltered existence. Probably due to immaturity. We've all been there.
My take - the best stories are uncomfortable ones. And I'm grateful to all those talented folks out there willing to take on an unpopular role/character. I can't imagine storytelling without them.
@Rudy_Manchego and Keane leads to Imagine Dragons lol
I thought the game was pretty good. I didn't like the ending and wish they had gone a different direction but I see why some people liked it. Also why are people freaking out about a LGBTQ store in the game. Have you guys been to Seattle? It's super liberal. If you dont like naughty dog then just dont buy their games and move on. I dono I think a small section of gamers are actually mentally unstable. I have never scene a fanbase lose their minds like gamers and that includes sports fans
@Paranoimia I've noticed a whole load of youtubers saying all this twisting it to their own narrative, including the 80% drop without the context.
My favourite had to be skill up with his clickbait "I DID NOT LIKE THIS AT ALL" review but later on he said if he had to give it a number he'd slap a 7 on it, baffling indeed!
@AdamNovice
What's this agenda Naughty Dog are trying to push? I'm not aware of this.
Sad thing a lot of these people haven't even played the game and are just going by leaks what weren't 100% accurate. In fact i've seen many comments making transphobic remarks about Abby what is not only disgusting but wrong when Abby isn't Trans however because leaks said she was they think she is.
It's fine to not like or even hate any game. But to start or join a crusade to destroy something just because YOU do not like it is beyond my understanding.
@Kirbyboy92 No, it doesn't seem 'sinister' at all. The person concerned states quite clearly that it was all quite amicable, and that he "was happy to unpack a bit of my reasoning" - which says to me that they asked him how and why he reached the conclusions in his review... details of his thought process leading to those conclusions... details which clearly were not in the review itself.
Yes, the article states that the contact was "unusual", but also that it's not unheard of. Given everything else going on around the game and ND, I'm pretty sure that the guy would have had no hesitation in spilling the beans had he felt they were in any way trying to intimidate, but his statement seems very clear that was not the case.
To say it seems "sinister" is very disingenuous when the guy has already made clear statements to the contrary.
Just ignore it.
Finished it - Everything about it is amazing. Any creative artist who worked on this just got one hell of a portfolio bump.
This is a career maker. That is all I would care about right now. Leverage it - and tell your significant other to go look at houses 😂😀
I love it when people on the internet get p*ssed off It just makes my day and makes me LAUGH So thank you CRYBABIES
@zimbogamer Oh the humanity!
Harassment is definitely wrong. Was this guy really naive enough to think the majority of players would like the story though??
Humanity
I’ve completed the game on my second play through to get the platinum I think it’s a great game 10/10 on everything minus the story but the story isn’t bad it is simply ok I definitely prefer the first game story and the fact it feels larger because your travelling across America partly with different environments and areas but Seattle is a decent place with lots to explore and enjoy so definitely a great game but the first will always remain the best. The character that has been getting hate or rather the actor playing the character doesn’t deserve it the character is amazing I just wish we are given more time with the character before a certain scene to understand her because you do end up hating her till 7-10 hours later in the game when you think actually this is a decent character and that’s what I hate about the game the fact you hate an important and eventual likeable character for 7-10 hours should of given us more backstory and time with her as said before a certain scene.
Every game means something different to each person because of our life experiences. Don't like a game, vote with your wallet and go find one you do like. Lockdown has turned many people into mean spirited individuals who spend too much time complaining about everything online. What is the end goal, destroy ND? Games I personally don't like I know others love so it all comes down to respect.
If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.
@Kidfried you can be disappointed in the direction of a story even after 1 game of course. Though I see no realistic way that you can compare people's attachments to a story of one game to that of a movie franchise thats over 40 years old and has countless pieces of media surrounding it.
I do agree that everyone acting like spoiled brats or threatening people over their respective stories really needs to get a grip on reality. Then again from what I've seen in the news over the last few months maybe that is reality these days
My biggest problem with ND is the lies. The marketing campaign for TLoU2 has to be the most dishonest in playstation history. The lies and the DMCA's.
Well he got what he asked for: Lot's of preorders and a stellar launch with lots of "emotion" in the fanbase.
Internet warriors dispatched the turd urchin division on this one.
Complete and utter lunacy. All of it.
Attacking actresses based on their work in a videogame is actually psycotic. Some people are honestly a waste of oxygen.
Actually here's the thing bothering me the most in this sequel, killing off A.I was never supposed to feel real, it can never feel real if you're the one committing the killing, it's just nonsensical, to kill an enemy A.I is supposed to be metaphorical, I can't feel for someone that isn't real if I'm personally involved, who thought that was a good idea? I remember Halley Gross - who is the co-writer for tlou2 - saying that they wanted us to feel how our choices affected the story, never through the gameplay did I feel I was making any deliberate choice. But again, visuals huh? That all that matters now? Having good looking assets thrown at our face just like every bloater I molotoved? Come on! The first game shouldn't be associated with this sequel, never in my life did I think Joel was actually killing all these people, A METAPHOR PEOPLE, i'll keep those other sort of feelings for the real life we're living in.
I've said it before, but screw it. So I played the first game and didn't really dig it. This one I watched gameplay and it seems alright. Not bad, not too great, something I could probably play through. However, the fact that people are getting so jumped up about the damn thing means it's BURYING all other games and so if anything Naughty Dog probably saw this and were betting on it, which is annoying. Can we just shut up about it? Games are supposed to get like a week or 2 of press, but I don't foresee this quarrel ending anytime soon.
@Nah900 "maybe you have lower standards"
Look at this smug mofo. Too cool for school.
Having just finished the game I don't think I've ever played anything like it and, due to the toxic comments out there, I doubt I'll ever get the chance to ever again.
It's really powerful stuff and will stay with me for a long time.
Best game of this gen? Maybe. The bravest? Undoubtedly.
I hope there is a Part III, I truly do.
@nessisonett +1
I wonder if the people declaring it ‘the worst story ever’ or ‘trash’ have ever played video games before? Because it ain’t even close to the worst.
But hey it’s a good smokescreen for hiding disdain for gay people or women. Any excuse right?
I agree the backlash on the people who helped make the game is wrong. But it's ok for people to have a differing opinion on the overal direction of a game.
The gameplay and graphics maybe outstanding but I genuinely THINK that the plot is objectively bad. If you think I'm a homophobe or I hate women and I'm a horrible person because of it then YOU are a fanatic. Simple as that.
@JJ2 That's okay, you're entitled to your opinion.
I don't see how anyone can describe the plot as being bad though. I would prefer bold.
😉
They could've played it safe, they didn't and in the end made something that will leave a lasting impression on millions of people. Of course so did the first one but without getting into spoilers all I'll say is that love can be destructive and make people do selfish things whilst on the other hand there's always hope of redemption, even for those that may seem too far gone.
This ain't Super Mario, folks!
@Col_McCafferty
I think it's such a shame considering the setting and wide reflection on the world but instead to go for this. Ha I think there so much to say but I know the drill. I'd be called out for it. Good people enjoyed though.
Edit
And people were saying Joel is selfish. Jeez 🤯
@JJ2 Fair enough.
I think there will definitely be a Part III and it may centre solely around Abby and Lev. Cue the tantrums!
I see Deacon is your avatar. Good choice. One thing about Days Gone is that you really get the idea that the freakers have taken over the told, by comparison the world of The Last of Us seems relatively infected free!
What a shame that humanity is broken, together the Wolves and Seraphites could've cleared Seattle of the infected. I guess that's the point though, humanity is stronger together than when it is apart.
@Col_McCafferty
Yea, Days Gone is my favourite game. That's because I feel the story makes sense (and is enjoyable) Even for an open world game. I'm definitely not feeling that part III and that character.
@JJ2 I enjoyed Days Gone an awful lot and the final ending is just so good. Bring on part 2!
Gotta to disagree there though old chum, I think this particular series needs to be a trilogy. Ellie has to be in it of course but if started with you playing as an older Lev out on patrol taking down infected that would be fine with me!
@Col_McCafferty
Yea. Dont get me wrong. I think its great for creator like ND to do whatever they want. Even to push for their own ideas. Its art and it's fine.
Dont get upset by criticism though.
@Kirbyboy92 'Unusual' is not the same as 'unheard of'.
No, I didn't ignore that part. If they said that, they were right.
His review is mostly an essay on what he didn't like about the story, which is fair enough... but when he does talk about gameplay, he does completely omit any reference to some notable changes from the first game. He doesn't mention new moves available - simple changes, which have a huge effect on how you can tackle each encounter. There is no mention of the 'hub' areas (semi open world) which give you several routes/places to visit. Nor is there any mention of the raft accessibility options for disabled gamers.
He claims that "every surprise attack is telegraphed", which isn't true... just off the top of my head, on my first play-through, there were at least 4 occasions where the type of attack he's referring to came with no warning at all. Plus, he claims that you torture people, which is a bit of a stretch... there is one scene where some level of torture is implied, but you only instigate the first three blows, and you don't see the results... it then cuts to later with the character visibly disturbed by what they've done, though what actually happened is left entirely to your imagination. It's hardly a recurring theme, and it certainly isn't a key feature of the gameplay.
So while I personally don't view it as a particularly harsh review, it is inaccurate in several areas, and omits some key information. To my mind, there are three possible reasons for those inaccuracies: (a) it wasn't played fully, (b) it was played on an easy level with reduced challenge (possibly for speed to get the review out), or (c) those aspects are being deliberately omitted for reasons only he knows... maybe because they didn't quite fit his angle.
"doesn’t it strike you odd they would contact this guy in particular out of the dozens that reviewed it. Why would that be?"
It does, but not for the same reason as you. You find it odd that he's the only one they contacted; I find it odd that he's the only one claiming he was.
Vice, it seems, doesn't put scores on reviews, and they're not even among the top go-to gaming sites for most people. There are arguably bigger sites giving harsher reviews and low scores, so it seems likely that those would have been first in line for contact if Sony were doing this. Perhaps the others were contacted, but as bigger, more gaming-centric sites, it may be more a more regular thing for them, and not worth mentioning.
Or maybe it didn't actually happen. Vice is a dubious site at best, with a history of making something out of nothing, getting people to twist the truth to make stories seem more 'spectacular' (i.e. clickbait), and even just making stuff up. A site whose own CEO once said of it: "If Vice is a news source, you're f*cked."
So perhaps they never contacted him at all. But let's take it at face value and presume they did. The more pertinent question would then be: Why do you believe him when he says they contacted him, but not believe his following statements in which he says that it was all perfectly amicable, and instead try to spin it as "sinister"?
But a quick glance at your comment history seems to answer that question.
@Kirbyboy92 "What comment history?" Member since Feb 2019, no comments on anything at all until mid-June this year, then several comments, all on TLOU2 articles, and all largely negative in tone. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, but gives a certain impression.
I'm not trying to discredit what he says. It doesn't need discrediting. If we accept it at face value, there's nothing to it. Unusual or not, the guy says he was contacted with some questions, which he was happy to answer, and that it was all quite friendly. No need to read anything more into it than that.
The only point I'm making is that if something unusual is claimed, and the claimant is from a dubious organisation with a history of fabrication and embellishment, it's probably wise to maintain a level of scepticism about the whole thing.
The bulk of your second paragraph basically echoes exactly what I'm saying. "...if vice isn’t that big a name then why contact them? Why would Sony care? Especially given that most other outlets are showering them with praise."
We both generally agree that it makes no sense that Sony would have cared enough to contact just this one guy, for a review which is basically no worse in tone than several others. The only real difference is in our interpretation. To you, there must be something dodgy going on with Sony; to me, it's Vice, and they're the only ones claiming it, so it all seems a little suspect.
I know Sony are no angels. They handled the leak very poorly, particularly in trying to take down any and all videos or discussion of the game, regardless of whether they were revealing spoilers or not. But them being on such a warpath just makes it seem more unlikely that they'd only contact this one guy when there were several similar reviews.
Show Comments
Leave A Comment
Hold on there, you need to login to post a comment...