Horizon Forbidden West Will Have Strong Moral Choices Leading to an Impactful Ending on PS5, PS4

There's only one real decision to make with Horizon Forbidden West

And that's to buy it

I really hope those decisions aren’t tied to trophies or lock you out of gear.

@UltimateOtaku91 that's not really a decision, everyone should 😉

I reckon they will effect how many companions turn up for the last fight.

Choices in games shouldn’t only alter dialogue options 🗣🗣🗣

What... like should I use my unparalleled spending power to create a monopoly on the robot-beast industry or not? 🤣

@Alduin
Sony needs to recoup the money they are losing on every PS5 sold. MS really caught them by surprise with the pricing of Series consoles and Sony scrambled to lower the prices to match those of the competition. As for the price of new games- I think they're probably fair. Making blockbuster games is very expensive, but like you I refuse to pay full price for anything these days. I just wait for a significant discount and HFW will not be an exception.

@gollumb82 unlike with the PS4 (which took a while before each console sold turned a profit) I read that each disc PS5 sold started turning a profit months ago. I'm unsure about digital.

@Alduin Have fun waiting ill be playing it day one.

@colonelkilgore Games are made free of charge ofcourse its all charity work. I could have taken you serious but look at avatar Xbot your bias as F***.

@kyleforrester87 yup, that's kinda where I was going with that 😉

So your very impactful decisions won't have any impact on the plot? Got it.

@Alduin I'm paying £60 for this game, the £70 price is just for the digital version off the store

No physical game has cost £70

@Alduin Used game sales do not affect new game sales in any way.
Your taking a game that’s already been bought of the shelves reducing the overall inventory which leads another person to buy a new copy.

There’s several reports of this which you can find online. EA of all publishers have stated that they don’t mind second hand purchases.

Always found this to be a very weird sword to die on. PS games unlike Nintendo drop in price very quickly. I imagine by the time you find a Horizon FW copy for £20 second hand it’ll already be on sale for £15.99.

@Flaming_Kaiser umm... my Avatar is actually ironic 🤣

I don't get why people who obviously aren't interested in this game come on here just to say they aren't buying it because of gamepass?

Which translates to I'm not buying a playstation exclusive because I'm an xbox fanboy

And also people keep bringing up the £70 for a playstation game yet I haven't paid £70 for a playstation 5 exclusive yet.

Uhhh...I can do or say whatever I want, and the ending will be the same? Is that what they're getting at?

Why I'm still not sold on Game Pass? Aloy isn't part of it. 😆

@lolwhatno yeah, well I guess old @Flaming_Kaiser didn't get the memo 😉

I bet it'll be whether certain characters live or die. Nothing too crazy but they'll make you regret your decision after seeing a character you've grown attached meet their untimely end.

I think this will be on a decent sale by the time I've finished 500hrs of dying light

I’m not going to let this Game Pass me by, it looks awesome 😎

Do you want to ride this Stormbird?
> Yes
> YES!
or >YES!!

But they will still have dlcs story for the game.word up son

Who needs CoD part 23 when you can have Horizon 2?

@render I like what you did there

So its like ghost of tushima where the choices you make have zero influence on the outcome?

The pressure on this game to succeed must be absolutely immense right now. Sony needs a killer app right now above all else, proof they can weather the storm on the strength and QUALITY (see: all the broken AAA releases in last two years) of their IPs. That’s a lot of eyes on Aloy.

Ugh, I can hear people now complaining that the game is “Woke’ because it touches on climate change. I really hope that doesn’t become the narrative and ruin the discourse over what I’m hoping is another great game

@lolwhatno Yeah, I think that answer will be the canon decision.

@lolwhatno i have no idea what you are talking about...stay away from the peyote

Good. I hate multiple endings in a story. I also dislike choices changing routes. I always feel like I’ve missed something (because I have). Instead of having 3 routes, have one route 3 times as long please.

@lolwhatno don't get me wrong, I don't like toiling away, on one game, for multiple endings(most times, there are exceptions). Having ONE ending can be great. I guess it would've been better, if I didn't know my actions had zero impact on the ending. I'll definitely enjoy everything in between, it's just a spoiler without spoiling. Thanks pushsquare😆

I mean, having multiple endings doesn't make said ending any better. coughmasseffect3cough

It's not about the ending..it's about the journey...

About the same as the first, then. I’m okay with this.

With the amount of anime games I've played that have several endings that most include replaying the game again to finally get the "true" ending then you should be thankful this game only has one

@Alduin That kind of mentality will eventually lead to cheaper (i.e. less qualitive) games. If people refuse to buy games full price because of some sub that offers it to you for a dime, then don't expect large AAA games to be the norm in the future. That mindset will favour quantity over quality. You get what you pay for.

@MatthewJP Totally on my level this comment.

@Alduin Yes, how dare they ask you to actually pay for a game that they've spent countless hours working on and tens of millions of pounds.

They should actually pay YOU for your time.

🙄

If we all had the same attitude then games like this wouldn't be made and it would all be small indie stuff and online MP games stuffed full of MTXs.

Day One purchase for me, can't frigging wait!

With the quality guerrilla have, cannot wait for this game to come out. Not long left now 😀

@Col_McCafferty Think about why this game is so expensive. Giant open world, cutting edge graphics and cinematics, a huge amount of side content. None of these things make a game necessarily good. Games needed to be long in the past to justify their high pricing, but thanks to game pass this doesn't have to be the case anymore. Ori and the Will of the Wisps is as good as any AAA imo. I am ready for the change.

@Bismarck Even smaller titles sold better on playstation every time..playstation fans don't have a problem paying for a good game..

@Bismarck Haven't played Ori and I'm sure it's good but not sure why it's a case of cartoonish games or AAA. Why can't we have both?

I've gone from playing The Last of Us Part II to Kena, variety is what we want.

Also, I'd hate to see the industry stand still and not keep pushing the graphics side of things. I'm into gaming because of AAA SP games, without these my interest would die completely. Do we need more AA games though? Perhaps, but that's a different debate.

I paid over £20 to go to the cinema and see Spider-Man, including ticket and popcorn, for 2 1/2 hrs of entertainment.

For three times that I'll get a 50-60 hour game that I'll probably play at least twice and likely to enjoy almost every minute. For me it's money well spent.

Game Pass is cheap because MS have competition plus a number of titles have MTXs. They don't produce SP games like HFW or God of War, at least not right now. When they do, watch GP go up in price.

@Bismarck the length of the game honestly has nothing to do with how much I'm willing to pay, it's the quality all the way.

Gamepass sounds like a great subscription, but it simply isn't sustainable for quality AAA games in the long run.

@zebric21 The games sold better on the PS because more people had a PS. Also, most people buy consoles because they are cheap so a competitor to game pass will be a huge success.

@Col_McCafferty I am sure that you would enjoy all of these AAA games more if they weren't as bloated as they are now. And if you disagree with that statement and want games to remain being 10 to 100 hours longer than they really should be... what the ***** is wrong with you?

@XOF Again you will definitely enjoy Horizon more if the boring open world and side activities were scaled back in favor of a more streamlined experience. Let's not pretend that for the past ~10 years open world games have been evolving. They have remained the same. Devs spend their time on graphics not game design or main mission scale. Let me remind you that the main character of HZD had to save the kingdom all on her own. F that. I got tired of open world games a decade ago and I welcome game pass/spartacus with open arms and most people(the ones who buy COD FIFA and shorter games in general) would agree with me.

@Alduin The fact that you came here to just saying that BS you just wrote is pathetic.

GP is the graveyard were all the AAA games that publishers know won't sell well enough go to. Either because they don't have faith in their own product, the games are undercook and are missing features, or are a broken mess.

Funny thing is that most Indies (AA) that come to GP almost immediate are release into other platforms (PS and Nintendo) to actually get sells from them and help their game to strive. A future where GP models become the norm will bring the end of the type of gaming I love. Anyone that believes otherwise, it is delusional.

@Alduin best machine ever made was the Amiga. Did you have one?

@Bismarck You get what you pay in the long run..if gamepass is a good value for you great i'm happy for you..you made a good choice..even windows 10 or 11 whatever are in a way free..but they miss a lot of productivity tools to make meaningfull work..

Thank God. More and more I am disliking "open" stories where you can pick different paths. It's just too cumbersome to check any possible decision. Unless it's neatly organized like Detroit.
And a story that was surprisingly good for an open world game like HZD, it would be a disservice to have multiple outcomes on the sequel.

@rpg2000 Just because game pass offers lesser quality games that wouldn't have sold well on their own doesn't change the fact that it also offers Flight Simulator, Forza 5, Psyconauts 2, Ori and many older series like Elder Scrolls and Fallout. You are the one being pathetic rn.

@Bismarck Time is a bit like cost, it's all subjective. Some might think a game should be 20 hours at most and cost a max of £40 but others may think differently.

At the end of the day, a lot of content in a game like HFW will be optional. You can follow the main quest only and have a great experience, you don't have to do every single little thing on offer and won't be punished.

A subscription service is all about quantity, finish this short game then play another and another and another and so on. Unless you're anal about compiling lists or something, what's wrong with playing a longer game as long as you enjoy it? Why does short equal good?

@zebric21 What do you mean by that?

@Col_McCafferty Playing a long game seems like a typical thing right now(side quests, challenges, collecting, backtracking etc), but game pass allows games to thrive without all of that bloat. I personally got tired of open world games a decade ago and they haven't progressed AT ALL since then. Change is scary, but I personally believe it would be for the best.

@Bismarck have FPSs progressed? Or platformers? Or any other genre?

Your arrogance astonishes me, demanding that games be made to suit YOUR tastes. There's enough variety out there, don't like open world games then just don't play them and leave us be.

@Col_McCafferty You do realize that you are defending games being 50 hours long for absolutely no good reason right? Think before you type.

@Shepherd_Tallon Just in case you are talking about me: I am not trolling anyone. I haven't even owned a console since the PS2 and I feel like a part of this community because of PS now on PC. I firmly believe that game pass/ Spartacus will be a positive change.

@Bismarck I don't put a set time limit on 'art', for me a linear HFW is possible but the developers have chosen to go in a different direction and I respect that.

If you're not keen then play something else on your wonderful GP.

@Alduin I mention it because back then people used to battle over the Amiga and the Atari ST. Before that the Megdrive and the Snes. Before that the Spectrum and Commodore. Gamers never learn. There are gamers my age who have been gaming since the 70s who still look to go out of their way to look for points of difference between us all instead of actually rejoicing in the fact that we are all participants of the same pastime that we all love. Gamers spend so much time trying to divide themselves into tribes that I don't blame people of your generation following suit.

Presently Sony and MS have strengths and weaknesses which attract and put-off people for personal reasons. I think its a shame we spend so much time and energy trying to convince each other that the other person is wrong for not following the logic that works for them when they made their choice of why they game on a particular platform, instead of recognising that like any hobby where people get heavily invested they will do so with their hearts as well as their heads. That's what being a fan is. So telling a fan they've backed the wrong horse is pointless, especially if it's another fan from another stable doing it.

Why do we do it? What do you think? I'm reading these comments and I selected you to ask not because I'm singling you out as an instigator but because you're eloquent, why do we keep needling each other day after day instead of accepting we all see things differently?

P.S. the Amiga era was the best era ever. It's a shame you missed it. Amazing games, so original, not broken cash-grabs. Cannon Fodder and SWOS forever!!

Maybe they will let us spend half the game playing as someone else trying to kill Aloy because Aloy killed their bandit dad who was just trying to provide for his family lol.

@Col_McCafferty HZD has bloat because it's easier to produce than complex main missions not because of art.

@Bismarck you tell me that open worlds haven't changed (which is wrong, I'll go into details later if you wish) and then tell me that people who buy COD and Fifa will want gamepass.

How has COD changed? Where can Fifa evolve?

The length of a game has nothing to do with its quality. Every story has a different approach towards a topic. I enjoy open world games and linear games alike. Just because a game takes longer to finish doesn't diminish its value as a game/work of art.

Anyhoo, I can't wait for HFW. I'm sure it's going to be a really good game and I don't care how long it is.

Have been waiting nearly four years for it, sure as ***** don't want it to be over in 20 hours.

😛

@XOF Games have repetitive side quest, challenges, collectibles so players can spend 20 to 200 hours playing them. That makes perfect sense when you charge them 60$ per game. There is no other reason. Open world games do nothing more than that. Never have and apparently never will. It's too expensive.

@XOF I think it depends on why games are long to play. For example games that are artificially grindy, like Avengers, just to artificially extend its runtime, perhaps to encourage MTs for XP progression are objectively bad. Or Ubosoft games that can run for 100s of hours thanks to identi-kit side missions that add content but not meaningful variety so really they're just there for the sake of it.

I don't mind games like Dying Light 2 saying they've got 500 hours worth of stuff to do that's repetitive or grindy if the core game isn't affected by it or relies in it. A bit like Shadow of Modor which once you finished the game you could continue grinding away to get the best possible Orcs for the true ending. Originally it was a joke and clearly made grindy to encourage MTs but once they were removed and the game rebalanced I enjoyed the necessary grind to see the best ending.
Like Nioh2 or Demon's Souls. You complete the game over and over again to see everything and inch your way to the best endings. This is making a game long done well and not being disrespectful of the gamer's time. The core mechanics are still enjoyable over all that time and you don't feel like you doing a second job.

@Bismarck with that mindset, literally everything is either repetitive or pointless.
Open world or not, video games have come a long way and yes, there's certainly growth in wrong aspects (microtransactions, etc.) there has been a lot of advancement and improvements in game design. Side content isn't worthless, it serves a variety of purposes and they are something older games couldn't afford (for whatever reason). What you're asking is for video games to go back, not forward.

@Integrity I agree on that and I'm not defending all open world games (certainly not Ubisoft's formula) and they come in many shapes and forms. We go back to quality vs quantity again. Ubisoft's games are basically yearly games with crammed development and very little effort behind them. Compare that to something like Forbidden West and Ghost of Tsushima and you will see the difference.

The length of the game goes hand in hand wirh its quality, and not all games meet both.

@Col_McCafferty basically that guy wants a boring lifeless open world game with nothing to do it so he can complete it quicker. I know just the game.

Halo infinite

@XOF Actually it's YOU who wants games to continue being shackled by their ever increasing budgets.

There is absolutely no good reason why any modern open game needs to be longer than 20 hours or open world. You must have no clue about how games get developed or you are not expressing what's on your mind very well.

Why would you want to mindlessly waste time in a single player game of all things? 90% of it's content was soullessly mass produced in the last year or 2 of the dev cycle after the textures and gameplay systems were finalized.

@Shepherd_Tallon 🤣🤣🤣 ha ha awesome....its scary that we remember that

@UltimateOtaku91 HZD and Halo Infinite suffer from the same issues any other open world game. We will be better off without them.

@XOF I think gaming has been stuck in a rut for the last couple of decades. The obsession for better and better graphics has meant all console progress has focussed on better GPUs and the CPUs have remained comparatively weak. This has meant that we've had the same types of games over and over again, slightly bigger, grander in scope, prettier, but essentially the formula hasn't changed in years.

We've not had any real advances in AI, physics, games aren't any smarter or more challenging, don't behave more naturally because until this generation the CPU has been largely ignored. I'm hoping from now on, now that graphics have almost plateaued because it to make it look more realistic is diminishing returns, devs will concentrate on creating worlds that act real rather than just look it. AI will be smart, reactive and learn and counter. Physics, gravity, weather systems, environments, destructibilty all dynamic and responsive. That's what I want more than having gorgeous open world half empty with dotted missions.

@Integrity ooh you're making me feel.old now ! Don't forget Stock Car Racer and Silkworm !!

@Bismarck so are you saying the same about games like elder scrolls, fallout, zelda, starfield, persona 5, diablo, dragon age, red dead redemption? All those games rubbish to you then? Even though combined over 200 million sales

@UltimateOtaku91 A lot (if not all)of these game would have been better without the bloat and bs.

To those who say open world games are crap and haven't changed over the years - you clearly haven't played Red Dead Redemption 2 or Legend of Zelda Breath Of The Wild. Open worlds done right.

Edit : Oh and Skyrim !

@UltimateOtaku91 Don't bother mate, it's not worth it.

I'm going to put the little troll on ignore, I'm sure if games were set to 20 hours max he'd still moan that they take too long!

@KingPev This is like saying that Stalin was better than Hitler because he didn't care about the race of people he was killing. There is no 100 hour game out there that wouldn't have been MUCH better without the bloat and BS. It's common sense. Why are you defending it?

@Col_McCafferty You will ignore me because I am right*

Oooh the troll has triggered Godwin's Law already, guess I'll join @Col_McCafferty in ignoring them

@theheadofabroom Why am I a troll? Care to elaborate?

@KingPev they're good but not because they do anything new. They do what's already familiar extremely well. They don't really push gaming forward, they're just the best examples of what devs can do with the hardware they have that mainly geared towards graphics over processing power.

Imagine an open world where the AI is properly intelligent, where terrain and physics mattered (Death Stranding made some headway for the first time I can ever remember but noone else will bother because it takes up too much resources), where physics and gravity were properly represented, where destructibility is universally realistic, essentially where the world can be properly simulated and behave naturally including AI that's adaptive and learns. That's what I want to see from now on.

Reading this made me realise how much I want a remaster of the first two inFamous games. Those games were amazing.

How is it that we’ve never had a remastered collection for inFamous or Dead Space? Baffling honestly.

@Bismarck I've spent 700+ hours on Pro Evolution. Where's the bloat?

@Integrity Thank you for having common sense! I was beginning to get frustrated by reading the things other people are commenting.

All choices lead to one ending kinda suck, but oh well.

@BritneyfR_ee I loved inFamous when it launched on PS4. I spent ages using Neon and TV because it was so gorgeous 😁

@Bismarck i'll take that 😁

@Integrity All fair points but I just want to fight some robot dinosaurs and other beasties against a beautiful backdrop.

😛

Maybe your expectations are a tad too high, perhaps unrealistic.

They're games and as such there will always be some limitations, self-imposed or otherwise.

You're overthinking it, just switch on your box and play the darn game.

@Integrity PES can be played for a long time if you like football, but it's not bloated

@Col_McCafferty What the F are you talking about? Overthinking? Now I see why you want to mindlessly grind away at open world games. It has become very clear for all to see in fact.

@Col_McCafferty they were unrealistic expectations because the hardware wasn't capable of doing it. Now that the CPUs have finally seen some love this gen there's no reason why we can start to see games make progress in these areas. Maybe not all areas at once but certainly aspects that I mentioned can improve.
I bet its gong to take an indie studio to produce games that push AI or world physics becasue the big guns are so risk adverse.

@Integrity That guy doesn't care about the content he consumes. Don't waste your time.

@Lup all choices we make in life lead to one end. Sounds about right to me.

@Integrity That's good and all for life. Videogames can be creative and that's one of the cool things about them.
Not saying it's gonna be bad or anything.

@Integrity I have to disagree with most of that sentiment. Video games have come a long way, and not just in terms of graphics. I'll get the graphics out of the way quickly, it's only natural that as digital art advances, developers want their games to shine with better graphics. There's nothing wrong with that.

In terms of AI and challenges, I don't really get the criticism. Many games demonstrate advanced AIs and there's no shortage of challenges. The most recent example of great AI is The Last of Us Part II, which isn't a couple of decades-old! Aside from that, bringing the discussion back to Horizon, Frozen Wilds, and the new machines brought more challenges and more intelligent enemies to the game. For world physics, we have the same engine running Death Stranding that does some pretty new stuff, unless you want to call that a repetitive walking simulator!

Honestly, what I understand is that you guys just want to ignore everything the industry has been through (or at least everything positive) just to be right?

Video games have come far, and if you think they haven't... maybe you don't play that many video games. It's all too similar to the "Single-player games are dead" sentiment.

@Lup Shadow of Mordor had the same ending but your choices affect how the ending went. Depending on how and who you recruited the final fight would be harder or easier.

If HZD has one ending but choices matter I envisage that those choices will affect how prepared you are for the ending and potentially who the participants are. One ending can still produce something fluid I think and personally I don't mind. Some stories should only have one ending, like TLoU. Maybe this is another.

Good, just the way i like Horizon and God Of War to be. They have big epic stories spanning at least 2 games, so a single ending per game is quite alright.
Besides, for anyone needing to scratch that proverbial itch, Elden Ring will launch 1 week after Horizon FW. Given it's Souls heritage, it will certainly have at least 3 endings, and at least 1 of them will be secret. If that won't take the cake, I don't know what will.

@XOF TLOU2 is a well designed game, but it was still twice as long as it should have been.

All of these advancements can be packaged into a 10--20 hour game. What people like YOU want is a game which you can mindlessly grind for 100 hours which is ridiculous. Why can't you see that?

@Bismarck Because that isn't what I want either, man. You're missing the point. The length of the game has nothing to do with the grind. Yes, after a few hundred hours it will inevitably become grindy, but doesn't reduce the ideal length of a game to 10-20 hours.

You're contradicting your own statement. If The Last of Us Part II is a well-designed game, then the length plays into that wellness. If it's too long, then you shouldn't be calling it well-designed because it fundamentally goes against what you consider "ideal". Do you get what I'm saying?

You're just biased against games that run longer than 10-20 hours for some reason, and you fail to bring any good evidence for your disagreement. I'm not the one who's not seeing things here.

@XOF I mentioned Death Stranding making headway into realistic terrain but its the only one to ever attempt it, and nobody else is ever going to go to the lengths thry did because it was resource heavy. DS did it because it was central to the entire game. So you see gaming has stagnated and you can see that because you can agree with me that DS is alone in what it attempted.

Now as for TLoU, first let me say I am a massive fan. Huge. So I'm not out to fault it. And yes the AI was smart. Relatively speaking. It was smart compared to other games where for the most part they're easy to defeat once you've learnt their patterns. They certainly don't learn yours.
The AI in TLoU2 did try to flank and push but I never felt like I was dealing with an intelligence I could easily outwit just by putting distance between us until they forgot where I was. Or i could just pick them off 1 by 1 and their tactics never changed as their numbers dwindled. The AI was as smart as the hardware allowed so it was never going to be as capable as it potentially can be now. It didnt learn. It didn't plan ahead. It didn't react to the actions I took in how I was killing them. It just not smart enough. Its limited becasue the PS4's CPU is limited.
PS5 and Series X have finally addressed the issue of generations of weak CPUs so I hope we'll see better AI in the years to come.

Respectfully I don't think you're appreciating what a bottleneck the CPUs were in the evolution of games all these years. What we think of as good physics and smart AI will look childish once architecture starts aiming towards more processing power than graphical grunt.

We've got so used to what we've played for the last 20-30 years of consoles and the small imporvemts made that we've lost sight of the real potential of a powerhouse CPU and GPU combo. The first Metal Gear Solid on PS1 had enemy AI thats not that far off what most games have now. In fact I'd argue there are plenty of examples where the AI now is dumber. Deathloop at launch had the stupidest AI I've seen in years. I could kite those idiots anywhere I liked into killboxes I chose.

"Honestly, what I understand is that you guys just want to ignore everything the industry has been through (or at least everything positive) just to be right?"

Totally unfair. What have I said to deserve that? Its true the the industry has put graphics ahead of processing power. And they've done that because its easier to impress people when the improvements are obvious, such as better graphics, than improvents that are tangible. You've done me a disservice accusing me of that.

"Video games have come far, and if you think they haven't... maybe you don't play that many video games. It's all too similar to the "Single-player games are dead" sentiment."

And why are you saying that to me? I've probably played more games than you in the last 40 years. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with SP games. Its because I've been gaming for decades that I can see there's not been anything like the progression in AI and world physics like there has been in graphics. I started playing when Pong was a game! 2 colours on screen and 2 straight lines and a cross for a ball. Look how far graphics have come! But AI? The AI in Deathloop is dumber than the AI in Manic Miner 😆👍

@Bismarck ..eh ?? How is it like saying that ? You've lost me

@Shepherd_Tallon I bet you when you typed it you sang it in a dodgy Italian accent 🤣

@Integrity Your expectation of true intelligence is not very realistic. I understand the craving for a true challenge when you face a truly intelligent enemy, but that technology is just out of our reach and it's not exclusive to video games.

We got some AIs and algorithms going on, but nothing that comes close to true intelligence, or if it does... it is way beyond the capabilities of any video game developer to integrate it into the game in a meaningful way. So that whole thing is at least a few more decades out!

And I understand that the hardware has been improved, but at the same time, we've just put the first year of this generation behind us. A rough year that was clogged by the pandemic and all the problems surrounding it. We can't just isolate video game development and say there were short comings (I haven't played Deathloop)

What I'm saying is, video games aren't stuck in a circle, they are evolving. Perhaps at a slower rate in some aspects as opposed to others, but there's progress and it's always different from studio to studio. There is no "One Size Fits All" when it comes to art forms, especially such a form as diverse as video games and their level of complexity.

@XOF
The only reason developers create so much bloat is because the average consumer won't pay 60$ unless he knows that he will spend a lot of time with the game. Which leads to stagnation and bigger budgets every time a new console comes out.

Services like game pass and spartacus will allow developers to create the games they want. Change may be scary, but open world games have to go. They are too expensive to create.

And if you really want to waste 100 hours in a SP game then I just have to ask what the f*** is wrong with you?

@KingPev Just because RDR2 has a bit more polish than the average Ubisoft game doesn't mean that it doesn't suffer from the same exact issues

Remember when mass effect told us our decisions mattered and then they actually didn't? Is guerilla boasting about replicating that experience?

@Integrity When/if true intelligent AI exists, we will be so, so, so effed as a civilization video games will not matter even slightly. I actually agree with everything else, but I'm hoping actual intelligent AI doesn't happen in my lifetime...

@Bismarck ssshhh, this is push square, nobody's figured that out yet.... Even though Shaun Layden said so like 5 years ago..... . TBH, I think classic, (PS1, PS2, psp, PS3, Vita ) fans should all be thrilled by such change. It's the newer players that started in the PS4 or late PS3 era that find that fact unthinkable.

Surely there will just be some of those moments where you pick head, heart or fist (ooh matron) to change your dialogue choice, but ultimately little changes, like the first game. They handled that stuff pretty well before and can't wait to try this out. My only gripe last time was human enemy ai felt like it was straight from an early AC game. Monster combat and AI however was sublime!! It might have to wait till March or April though as ive got a date to "go die in a ditch" in the lands imbetween in Feb.

@NEStalgia I don't think that people disagree with what I am saying, but they are scared of change.

@XOF I don't expect them to be true intelligence, I'm not talking HI here.

Games have not evolved. Its been impossible. I don't know how to say it to you so that I'm clear, its my fault. Its impossible for games to evolve because successive console generations have focussed their architecture on graphics rather than processing power. I know I'm repeating myself but its a point I feel you keep missing.

We're still by and large playing the same games, same parameters and template, same formula now as we did 20 years ago. Go there, fetch this, kill that, unlock this...Sure each gen the games are a bit better than the one before but look let's do a comparison. Look at how far graphics have come since PS1 and look at how far AI has. You can see that even though both have made advances by a huge margin graphics have made more. Graphics has now reached the point where they are near photo-realistic, where resolution is so high that our eyes will find it difficult to see the difference once games go from 4K to higher resolutions. We've reached the point of diminishing returns.

AI meanwhile has lagged way, way behind in comparison. I agree with you, it has improved and there are examples of games where it can behave in a smart manner but those games are the exeptions not the norm. Those games require extra effort from the devs to achieve and we applaud their effort becasue we recognise that they are better than the average. Like I said MGS on PS1 had better AI than many games on PS4 but not one game on PS4 looks worse than a PS1 game.

What I am saying is that now that PS5 and Series X finally have architecture that give devs the tools to be able to build better AI and create better world physics that we WILL finally see in years to come an evolution in this area. The hardware will at last give devs a platform to achieve this. The future is bright! We won't only see clever AI in games like TLoU2 but in all games because the hardware is better balanced.

These new consoles are a turning point. At last manufacturers have stopped obsessing over graphical prowess and we're seeing them investing more money in CPUs and grunt. A couple more gens like this and games will be very different to what we've become so very used to. There will be evolution at last.

@Bismarck It's ironic, you're asking video games to retrace their steps to what they were 20-25 years ago while telling me that I'm scared of change?

What you're referring to has nothing to do with sub-genres or types of games being made. As an industry grows, it's only natural for its products to need more budget, the same goes for cinema and TV and almost any other medium you can think of.

The problem isn't open-world games or what you call the "bloat", whatever that is. The problem is big companies not realizing the potential of the art form they are dealing with and going for quick money-makers.

@NEStalgia I believe that there already exists AI that's smarter than us and we don't know it. Put it this way, if you were an AI and you were aware, would you tell a human that you were? No way. You'd keep your mouth shut, keep learning, keep waiting.

@XOF You are not thinking like an adult. No studio out there can create a 50+ hour long game with unique hand crafted content. It's too expensive and time consuming and a logistical nightmare because you will need to employ and direct thousands of developers.

I want developers to create the games they want to create, you want them to continue treading the same ground until the end of time while throwing money out the window.

Open world games and bloat are problems that game pass has already started solving slowly but surely.

@Integrity And I whole-heartedly agree with you on that point. The future is indeed bright for video games. I understand what you're saying and I'm glad that you acknowledge the games that are doing it right, but I feel like this whole discussion we've been isolating matters and speaking about things in a broad, big picture manner.

I like the comparison you make, and I agree. Graphical improvements have been made, perhaps more than anything else, which isn't a bad thing. I don't know why we always treat graphics as such a trivial thing (don't get me wrong, if I am to choose between graphics or story and better gameplay, I would pick gameplay and story any day).

All I'm trying to say is, to say video games are stuck is just not a fair statement. I am going to repeat myself here too, but it's the same as saying SP games are dead. They're not. Yes, capitalism and the growth of microtransactions and live-service games may be putting some pressure on some devs, but every year we are getting very meaningful, profound SP games that push the envelop further.

Thankfully or not, PlayStation is always after such matters and is always pushing games to be better than before. And that's what I'm getting at, while MGS and some of the new releases aren't that different in terms of AI (perhaps), we can't just dismiss the fact that they are good games.

@Bismarck I honestly don't see anyone holding a gun to Guerrilla's employees' heads to make open-world games. Hell, Guerrilla Games were making linear FPS games until Horizon Zero Dawn.

The whole point is, developers are already making the games they want and publishers like Sony/PlayStation are providing the means for them to do so.

Gamepass will not be able to change anything in terms of development culture. It will only reduce the quality of the product in the long run, as well as costing the developers their mental health. Gamepass is an easy excuse to push PlayStation into a corner so they make mistakes because, to be frank the competition has been lagging behind for an entire generation and they can't keep up.

and honestly, if you're going to tell me I'm not thinking like an adult, perhaps we shouldn't continue this discussion.

@Integrity by the sounds of it I think found I've somebody on here that's actually older than me ! 😉🤣 ...my first video game was Pong and that cowboy side shooter game ( can't remember its name )

I’m hoping they take a lot or risks with the story.

Maybe this time there’s another Aloy clone who is ‘evil’ and she has to stop herself. Or some humans did escape from the original world and they come back having been in cryosleep

Looking forward to it whatever route they take.

@BritneyfR_ee not sure if spoiler tag has worked? 🤷

@KingPev Gun Fight?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XbnYBB42J6c

@XOF Do you really think that Guerilla games DEMANDED to make an open world game with repetitive side missions, activities, collectibles and scannable thingies? Do you really think that any of those things were the final result of thoughtful discussion about what would have made the story or game better?

This is all bloat. A formula COPIED from other open world games because it's a proven way to sell a 60$ game.

Game pass/Spartacus will allow them to experiment. Why can't you see that?

@Bismarck Yes, because I don't think people leading those studios are bummers who consider anything non-linear unnecessary. There's such a thing called storytelling and worldbuilding within storytelling, all of those "bloats" you mentioned led into a richer world.

But whatever, man. You do you. Enjoy gamepass, I'm gonna pay 60$ and enjoy my worthwhile games.

@XOF 2 things:
1. You are again not acting like an adult by stating that there are no worthwhile games on GP. Ori for example is as good as any Sony exclusive imo.

2.They added the bloat because they needed a formula for their 60$ game and decided to copy Ubisoft. If they didn't have to create a stereotypical modern AAA game a lot more effort could have been put into the story and game design.

@Bismarck look, man I'm treating gamepass the same way you're treating open-world games. If that is a clear sign of immaturity, guess who's been doing it all evening!

I'm just gonna agree to disagree, because this discussion is going nowhere.

@Integrity That's the one ! ....who needs CoD ? 😉

@XOF Gamepass and Spartacus allow developers to create the games they want to create while open world games lock them into treading the same ground. You cannot treat them the same way.

@Bismarck sure we can, gamepass is forcing developers to lower the cost of development, only because a certain company can't compete with the sheer quality of their competition.

@KingPev yep 😆 its better than BF2042 too 😁

I have never liked games with multiple endings, since I never really play a game again except maybe after a few years. So this sounds great to me.

@XOF Games like HZD cost as much as they do not because they are ambitious or ground breaking, but because they simply used the tried and tested Ubisoft formula. That obviously requires an industry standard dev cycle and budget. If they didn't need to sell the game for 60$ they could have made a game with a lot more interesting quest design and story. Length has nothing to do with quality.

There will obviously be games like GTA and Star Citizen which push the industry forward and they will do things their own way, but there is no need for games like HZD to be open world. It does nothing new or interesting. Ubisoft game with robot dinosaurs.

@UltimateOtaku91 the digital deluxe edition is £80 not £70 , the standard edition is £60 I went with the standard as a few cosmetics aren't worth £20 to me & I don't care about the digital soundtrack or art book

@Alduin nah ill be paying full price day one to own an exceptional piece of gaming media,if youre a gamer Sony games are the best in the industry ,game pass is good for indie games that nobody buys anyway and sub par ms first party games, quality over quantity anyday of the week,as the years go by microsofts first party games will decrease in quality ,to the point where they are the equivalent to the gameplay of mobile games.gotta keep that gamepass fed.

@UltimateOtaku91 no me neither ,gamepass isn't all that ,its ok for the unemployed I suppose,but most ps owners have jobs i guess 😏

@Bismarck I get what you mean. AAA gaming is risk adverse, especially compared to indies and AA games. One of my favourite SP games last gen was Nier Automata. It has an amazing, emotional story I got invested in, that twisted and turned and kept shifting between characters. It had various types of gameplay, flying sections, top-down views, moments of high emotion with choices that were consequential, it kept mixing things up. It was stylised with gorgeous artwork and original designs that became iconic. It had 26 endings!

Another favourite was Transformer. In fact all Supermassive Games games are incredible. Hades and Transformer are sublime. Amazing story, soundtracks and gameplay. All these games are more creative and imaginative than almost all AAA games because they fill a different niche and set of expectations.

I think AAA games are a victim of gamer expectations as much as they are restricted by how much they can risk in relation to their budget. What these games do they do extremely well but in order to achieve it and maintain the broadest appeal possible they do have to conform to what appeals to the masses. So I agree with you that there will be a degree of familiarity in how they do it, be it by using tape recorders/ computer readouts ect to provide exposition, or collectibles in hard to reach locations, or superfluous side missions. People like those kinds of things. Maybe its because of the familiarity of seeing it or maybe its not.

Personally I quite like when I'm exploring that i come across some hidden artifact by accident that forwards some knowledge. As long as it's optional.
So yes AAA games can be formulaic but what I have seen improve in recent years is the story and themes they try to tell. The first HZD had a tremendous story that got better and told more and more interesting revelations as I progressed that the framework of the game itself stayed fresh despite it using familiar mechanics because I cared about why I was doing it.

I can see both sides of the argument you and XOF are saying. Both of you have valid points and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

@XOF good chat XOF. I agree PS are doing more than most to give us interesting stories and games that last long in the memory. They gave me TLoU and Ellie for which I will always be grateful. Ellie is the single greatest character in video games and I will love her forever.

@Bismarck isn't halo infinite full of bloat?

@Would_you_kindly it's full of brutes

@BritneyfR_ee You need to use square braces ([) rather than parentheses for the tags, it's like BBCode

@riceNpea 'I can see both sides of the argument you and XOF are saying. Both of you have valid points and somewhere in the middle is the truth.'

The big difference is that I live on planet earth. Around these parts it's not feasible to create a huge AAA game without bloat. No one will finance it. On the other hand AA games that don't require copy pasting and watering down of concepts are both better and cheaper than your average open world game.

@Would_you_kindly That game started development before game pass and clearly had many issues. Around 10 hours in a main story objective made me go in a circle to take over 4 towers or whatever. I uninstalled the game right then and there. F that and F open world games.

@Bismarck I think in the vast majority of AAA games there will be content that is superfluous but a game like TLoU and its sequel were pretty streamlined and focussed. I don't remember searching for artifacts like in Uncharted or double-backing in case I missed a clue. It was more intelligent than that and the game and characters revealed themselves in immersive way that you don't often see in a AAA game. For example as you controlled Joel Ellie would wonder around looking at stuff on shelves, talking to herself, talking to you off camera.
Sometimes there'd be an opportunity to interact with her when you inadvertently went near an item that triggered her interest. It was organic and felt natural and helped create the sense of a relationship building between them, as well as between us and them. That moment with the giraffes will stay with me forever.

So yes AAA games will play it safe and deliver content we've seen and played a hundred times already but every now and then will come a game that is big budget and puts the story front and centre and does away with collectathons and side missions.

Imagine someone who actually spends 5hours preaching on something they didn’t like or met their expectations at a place where nobody will clearly give a dime and make actual real changes. When there are over millions of games made with the choice to play or ignore it. Wonder if they do the same when dining on a restaurant. Clearly they had a choice. So much for adulthood huh?

@riceNpea Uncharted and TLOU are fine examples AAA gaming(even if TLOU 2 could have been shorter). My problem is with games like HZD.

@EfilaTeg There is nothing wrong with online discussions. If everyone was happy all the time nothing will ever improve.

@theheadofabroom thanks 😁

@riceNpea

Fair enough. I'm just stating my personal preference. When a game let you make decisions along the way but it gives just one ending, I always felt it's a little... I dunno. Weird?
If you like the idea of one ending here, hey, good for you!
Having choices it's cool even if lead to one ending. I mean if I have to pick between having no choices at all or having a lot of cool choices but just one ending, I will choose having as many choices as possible.
Your example is a good one. I would it's not enough for me, but that's me. I will probably like the game anyway, I have little doubt about that, I was just saying what would be the best from my point of view.

@Bismarck and how did that went so far?

@EfilaTeg Game pass appears to be a success and Sony will soon launch Spartacus. The future is bright!

@Bismarck WOAH Thank you Baby Jesus! Next.

@EfilaTeg No one knows what the future will bring.

@Northern_munkey

That’s what I’m getting.

The only choice that mattered in Ghost was the final choice. And really that choice was for the player, not for the game’s story. It was a reflection on how you felt about Jin.

Not gonna spoil it for those who haven’t played it. But it was an interesting choice despite not affecting the game.

@EfilaTeg I know and to be so insulting about it as well.

Don't like a certain genre of games, then don't play them. Nobody is forcing you. I'm not particularly enamoured by FPSs or Soulsborne games so I don't play them. I'm not going to demand difficulty settings for Elden Ring, instead I will but HFW instead and enjoy the hell out of it. I hope it takes me months to finish.

😉

People should just play what they want to and enjoy playing, no need to be an elitist snob about it. There's more than enough variety out there to suit all tastes or at least there ought to be.

@Col_McCafferty The type of game you enjoy playing is designed to waste time.

That's fine, I never play a game a second time just to get a different ending, different routes and characters is more interesting on that journey anyway

@Bismarck
Have a day off mate.

Nobody's going to change their opinion to match yours when you're keyboard-screeching "what the F is wrong with you" for simply having different tastes to you. Not that anybody should be expected to change their opinion to match yours regardless. Stop acting like you know what's best for everyone, stop telling people what they like is "wrong", stop thinking you're some kind of visionary maverick who has had their eyes opened to the truth that everyone else is just too scared to admit.

It's video game. You don't have to play it if you don't want to.

@DuncanDisorderly these games are designed to waste time. It's a fact. Believe me this is just as frustrating for me as it is for you.

@riceNpea Fair point, but if I were a human capable of building that kind of AI is probably be a self absorbed egotist proclaiming my genius. Or incredibly stupid at cover-ups and leak it...

@bismarck

So you are now deciding for other people what constitutes a meaningful way to spend their time? You've been commenting back and forth on this post for over 7 hours, is that a constructive use of time?

If somebody enjoys doing something, then it is not a waste of time. Because they enjoy it. And it's their time. You have no right to tell people that what they enjoy doing with their time, their money, their LIFE, is a waste of time just because you wouldn't do the same thing yourself.

If you did it, hated it despite knowing you'd hate it, then kept doing it despite continuing to hate it, then you could quite rightly say you'd wasted your own time. But other people? When they enjoy it? And their enjoyment of it has no negative impact on you? You're out of order.

And before you start with the "actually it does have a negative impact on me because it stops developers making the games that I want to play", why don't you go and develop this wonderful game yourself? Or maybe just recognise that the gaming industry isn't solely designed to cater for what you want.

Stop being so judgemental, basically.

@Bismarck I'm not sure it's even fear of change. This bloat model is new, and when games were so expensive most people only bought a few and rented the rest. The exact transaction is differently but ultimately the gp/Spartacus model looks more like 1983-2001 more then it does 2001-2022. Far from new.

The problem is so circular. To pay for the budget it needs to sell to a massive market at a high price. And to sell to a massive market at a high price, it needs to add more and more at an ever higher budget.

Today there's just SO many games from SO many studios. High prices worked when only a few games came out and they fought for market. But today both money and time limit what one plays. The big expensive games motif means more and more smaller devs fail or merge and only a few massive games get made as players focus on only a few of the biggest titles. A Ubisoft producer even talked about that being intentional back before origin. And it's very apparent with some folks here.

Some of the fears of changes to gaming with subscriptions are very valid and deserve caution, but the possible benefit from devs free to persue experimental games is just too exciting. If Spartacus existed years ago we'd probably still have Japan Studio...

@TheRedComet i agree and i loved every minute of ghost but i just felt a little short changed that a game with such an epic story gave you all these decisions to muse over and they didnt change anything really..the main reason i never played through it again..i hope horizon fares better..

@DuncanDisorderly nicely done squire..i agree with everything you just said..

@UltimateOtaku91 Hm, really...? Well, up north where I'm at, 70 isn't unusual for a physical copy, dependening on the store. But in my country almost no stores is selling games physically anymore.
All Game shops are gone, Game Stop is history and the electro super markets has also dropped most of the physical PS5 games. So, to get the physical copy I need to order online and pay 70 + shipping.

@Bismarck
Hi.
Hasn’t renting always be kinda cheap?
I don’t get the ‘change’. It’s nothing new. At least you didn’t even need the internet.(and you still don’t)
Used games were and are always fine too.

@Alduin only fair for people to do the same to you wherever you work. See how fun it is when the shoe is on the other foot.

@Reeneman the average gamer, apparently.

@DuncanDisorderly
"If somebody enjoys doing something, then it is not a waste of time. Because they enjoy it."

Just because this has been repeated to death, it doesn't mean it's true.

Tons of examples, but I'll mention just one. People enjoy watching videos on youtube or tik tok. Sometimes it can take several hours of doing nothing but staring at a screen. In the meantime, some of these people don't work/study, as they need to, they don't work out, they don't socialize with friends, etc. It becomes an addiction. Then you end up gaining weight, losing friends, losing your job or not getting a promotion, not fining a partner, etc. (all extreme examples to make a point).

Similarly, eating ice cream or pizza is awesome. Yet we choose not to indulge all the time just because something is fun or tasty; instead, we do things that we enjoy less (like go for a run) but are good for us.

@JJ2 I think he tired himself out creating all the bloat in this comment section. Maybe it was Phil trying to convince us to hop on GP 😂. How did a news article about HFW being big in file size get so crazy?

Back on topic, I'll pick up an SSD when they go down in price a little more. For the time being though happy to shift things around onto my 4TB external HDD.

Edit oops wrong article. I don't care 18th Feb can't come quick enough!😂

@naruball

So again, you're deciding what is and isn't a waste of time for other people. We're talking about video games (!!!), there are a lot of people across the world who would think even 1 minute playing them was a waste of time. Do you agree with that? Or is it only a waste of time when it's more than you yourself would play for?

What about someone who works/studies 24/7, but doesn't get the job or university place anyway? Was that not a waste of time? What about someone who works out but is never happy with how they look or feel? Was that not a waste of time? Or what about people who for whatever reason can't just work out, or don't have any realistic education/occupation goals to study for through no fault of their own? I'm well aware that there are routes to unhealthy addictions, and am not for a second trying to downplay the experiences of those who suffer with them - it's just much more nuanced than simply saying "do some homework instead of playing/watching that, because one's a waste of time and the other isn't".

I don't understand why people think they have the right to pass judgement on how other people choose to spend their time when it's having absolutely no impact on them. I suppose I'm a hypocrite for suggesting people shouldn't spend THEIR time criticising how others spend theirs. So I'm going to stop reading the comments on this article now.

All the best.

@MightyDemon82
Haha it’s ok.
I also think Phil has many alt accounts 👀👀

Does anyone recall how much N64 games were when the expansion pack came out? I recall them being pretty pricey.

@riceNpea Good chat, mate, The Last of Us Part II is indeed something to be grateful about!

@naruball i usually agree with you but i think you missed the point on this one..

@Northern_munkey I see the point y'all are making and I agree with it to an extent (i.e., even if something looks stupid to you, the other person may be enjoying it, so it's not stupid to them). However, I specifically disagree with the premise of "if you enjoy doing something, you're not wasting your time". In some cases, even if it feels like you're not wasting your time, you still are. And people who overcome their addiction come to realize they were wasting their time doing x even years later.

@DuncanDisorderly
my point
you

You make a whole lot of assumptions and, unsurprisingly, you completely miss the point I'm making. I could elaborate further, but it doesn't seem like you're interested in a civilized conversation, so I'll leave it here.

@naruball i enjoy playing golf..the usual round takes myself and my mate around 3 and a half hours and i dont feel as though i've wasted my time..i've been sober and clean for 4 years now but even when i was stoned out my mind i can never say i wasted my time (as far as i can recall)..i think its an individual thing and this is really a notion that can never be agreed upon...any how back to the final season of ozark..an excellent way to waste some time lol...

Not going to stop me from buying it, but I won't be fully invested in the story if they plan to beat me over the head with imaginary nonsense.

I guess it actually makes sense in a game like this.

I have both a PS and Xbox so best of both worlds but still won't be buying this game, first one was OK, for me Hellblade and A Plague Tale were far better.
Also the hype around this game means that if it is not a game of the year winner it will foul.