Final Fantasy 16, Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth Fail to Meet Expectations on PS5

Square is known to set EXTREMELY high and unfair expectations a lot of the time. A game could sell 10 million in 2 weeks and they'd still somehow say it fell short.

Blame GP, Sony players must have skipped them waiting for them to come to a service. I kid i kid. I think FF16 is awesome. Could care less about 7. But in today’s gaming environment no 3rd party should stay to one plastic box using almost the same parts. Makes no sense.

Or is it rather: the playstation 5 fails to meet the expectations of final fantasy.

@tameshiyaku Not really. Games like Helldivers and Spider-Man 2 do prove that there is success to be found. But Square has a history of poor budgeting, high sales expectations and poor release schedules.

Both the FF games have also been decent but not great in terms of quality with poor console performance, bloated stories, empty worlds and an inconsistent tone.

@get2sammyb It isn't once upon a time FF7 in HK would've been HUGE but now it is a whimper while people get excited for Persona and Yakuza instead which have built a base with a younger audience.

FF16 might have done better if it was actually a Final Fantasy game, clearly word of mouth wasn't good. Shame about Rebirth though 😕

@get2sammyb I have talked about this exact point in other websites before. Making these games multiplatform will sell some more copies but that won’t address the issue that these games fundamentally underachieve relative to their quality/critical reception and production values.

Why does a game like FFXVI struggle to sell compared to Sony first party titles of similar quality and production values? These games are struggling to keep up with Days Gone’s sales figures, let alone thinking about the 20m+ territory the first party big boys get into.

They’ve tried different things with the Remakes and XVI and neither seems to have been able to penetrate the broader markets they were aiming for while alienating some of the existing fanbases.

The answer is very likely not to return to more traditional turn based games as a lot of people want though, as there is a pretty low ceiling on how successful turn-based JRPGS can be these days and its not close to the 20M numbers they are dreaming of I’m sure.

They seem to have backed themselves into a corner a little bit where a lot of people are not wanting to play a FF games because of what they think a FF game is, or dislike in general for JRPGs and at the same time the traditional fan base is being turned away with the games moving in a new direction.

@breakneck I think you're talking about FF 16 alone. That was a trainwreck.

@breakneck

It isn't once upon a time FF7 in HK would've been HUGE but now it is a whimper while people get excited for Persona and Yakuza instead which have built a base with a younger audience

No Yakuza game has broken 2m copies yet I believe and Persona 5 which was a massive hit took 7 years across every format(PS3, PS4, PS5, Xbox one, Series X/S, PC, Switch) and 2 different versions of the game to reach 7.2m copies. Thats about the same as FF7 Remake has sold in 3.5 years and is not considered particularly successful.

When you compare to other Japanese games FF is still very successful but they’re looking for the massive breakthrough.

Over the years it's become clear that most of SE's issues stem from their terrible upper management.

@get2sammyb I think Final Fantasy hadn't been the same since 13 and 15 which the majority found were disappointments, and they were multiplatform. Plus since then there's been a shift in the main console in Japan which has gone from being the PlayStation to now Nintendo, if ain't on Nintendo then it's Asian sales are going to take a big hit. Hence why I believe Dragon Quest is now a bigger series than Final Fantasy and will probably be their main focus going forward as it's art style is easier to implement on lower spec hardware and will be the easier of the two series to get on all platforms. Then there's the fact these games being available on an handheld device would boost the sales as well.

@DennisReynolds Sorry man but it is a FF game through and through. Being about crystals, primals, gods, chocobos, tonberries, and experimenting with something new with its gameplay. Like others have said Square Enix has dumb expectations and their president is a terrible leader with STILL focusing on trying to make NFTs work when even his own workers think it's stupid.

I love and grew up with final fantasy and adore rebirth,vbut my younger friends (im 31 thetvare say 25/26, think im a complete weeb for playing it, that generation mostly think FF isnt cool.

@ChrisDeku I think for a series like Final Fantasy 10 million is a respectable sales target, in terms of going back to turn based combat I think you're right, it would actually damper the series sales even more as casuals would just turn their nose at it and some people just don't have the patience for that style of combat.

I think JRPG's in general have just taken a massive loss in interest, during the PS1 and PS2 days when JRPG's were hugely popular and basically carried those gens, it was because there was no live service games and online multiplayer games that are taking up a lot of people's time and attention, they don't have time for long JRPG's anymore, especially the younger players they just want to finish school/college and jump into online games with their mates. That's backed up by how the most popular final Fantasy game over the last 20 years is an online game.

@ChrisDeku Yakuza probably has less than a third of the budget of a FF game with a far better release schedule.

Persona and Yakuza are liberal in their re-use of assets to reduce costs. FF is not. It is the same with Resident Evils success.

They are cheap to make since the bulk of the hard work was done with RE7 and RE2 Remake and the newer games don't feature too many graphical improvements or animation changes.

Also of note is Bandai's game division also saw a pretty bad decline in profit for the year. I think on a macro level games are going to have to deal with the fact that a lot of the covid boom provided inflated growth.

Has any game of the last 10+ years ever met Square-Enix's expectations? At some point, you have to wonder whether the problem is with their sales performances, or their expectations.

Actually looking into this further Final Fantasy as a series has always fluctuated in sales with its earlier titles not really doing that well.

Final Fantasy - 2.13 million+
Final Fantasy II - 1.37 million+
Final Fantasy III - 3.86 million+
Final Fantasy IV - 3.49 million+
Final Fantasy V - 2.88 million+
Final Fantasy VI - 3.80 million+
Final Fantasy VII - 14.10 million
Final Fantasy VIII - 9.60 million+
Final Fantasy IX - 5.83 million+
Final Fantasy X & X-2 - 20.80 million
Final Fantasy XI: Online - 1.77 million+
Final Fantasy XII - 7.71 million+
Final Fantasy XIII & XIII-2 - 7.70 million+ & 3.30 million+ respectively
Final Fantasy XIV: Online - 1.45 million+ 30 million free players.
Final Fantasy XV - 10.00 million+
Final Fantasy VII Remake - 7.00 million
Final Fantasy XVI - 3.00 million

@UltimateOtaku91 can you find a breakdown of how sequels in the same franchise have done? I read somewhere that X-2 sold half of the units FFX did and a similar story for the XIII Series.

Really went into FoamStars pumped, hoping for even a shred of the Splatoon magic.. but it just didn't click. Felt clunky and just didn't pull me in. Its a shame, i don't like seeing SE get in trouble here, hope they can turn things around.

@breakneck There's Xlll-2 sales data in my above comment, and Final Fantasy X-2 sold 5.4 million whilst X sold 8.5 million, then the remaining 6 million sales for those games were for the X/X-2 HD remaster double pack which released on multiple platforms including PS4, PS3, Switch, PC, Vita and Xbox one, so that helped it get a huge boost many years after release that's why it's total sales are so high compared to the rest of the series.

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2022/07/final-fantasy-x-series-has-surpassed-an-incredible-20-million-shipments

@breakneck So yeah Sequels definitely do take a hit, with X-2 and Xlll-2 selling just over 3 million less than the first games. Meaning Rebirths sales so far are perfectly fine if the 2-3 million sales rumour is true, looking at past Final Fantasy sequels I don't get what Square Enix were expecting.

So there is generally a big drop-off between direct sequels. and Lightning Returns the third game in the XIII trilogy was last reported at 1.5 million units sold. So half the sales is pretty much on par for Rebirth

1. FF7 Rebirth wasn't good enough. That one is pretty simple. SE should have spoken to fans more and done more research because they clearly didn't and it shows. They did their own thing, and failed in almost every area.

FF16 is more complex I think, although I personally still stand by the fact SE have ruined the series with their crappy gameplay mechanics.

1. PS5 launch was a disaster and there is still knock on effects from it to this day.
2. There isn't enough top tier quality "I cannot miss this" games to drive install base. Games sell games. They are all "played that before, oh it looks marginally nicer, meh I'll pass". There are exceptions, but too few.
3. The whole industry is weaker with Microsoft struggling. Nintendo doesn't fill the void. Yes it sounds weird, but it's true - even with Sony exclusive games. A healthy market is one with competitors all working together to build value in the market. Microsoft's drop off has definitely impacted Sony - they have not mopped up the difference, not even close.

FFVII was the big one. It is also the biggest game that boosted the Playstation beyond believe. The remake was always the holy grale for them. They screwed that up by making it a trilogy and changing the story of that game. The budgets of the remake are ridiculous high and they will never make that back.

Don't get me wrong, I loved both remake and rebirth and consider them to be the best in recent years. But they could have easily made it in one game, two at the max if they sticker to the original story and content. 70% procent of both is extra content. Fans wanted a one on one remake, alot backed out because of the first one.

Since 2020

68% of SE games have been multiplatform
19% have been Nintendo exclusive
13% have been Playstation Exclusive.

But hey exclusivity is killing the company 😂

If consumer response was muted for a heavily marketed console exclusives, what kind of magic bullet would a multi platform release have actually solved other than failing to meet expectations on multiple systems.

@Nepp67 FF is a JRPG series, FF16 is DMC at home and its plot is a convoluted mess so much they have a system that tries to stop you from getting lost in it.

@HonestHick To be real what games have met Square-Enix expectations ever in the last generations.

Also Foamstars is just terrible ofcourse did it fail with multiple platforms it would still be a disappointing game.

The best thing Also Foamstars is just terrible ofcourse did ir fail with multiple platforms it would still be a disappointing game.

And Forspoken when the DLC is the best thing about your game maybe start looking at your own work.

The article says a journalist says this did not come out of SE month and gaming media like to lie though their dam teeth

SE have some ridiculous sales expectations though. I mean FF16 sold 3milli plus in first week or so and they were still upset 🤣

@UltimateOtaku91 Why didn't they just remake FF7 with the new controls and some extras. Like the rumored final weapon for Cloud, some extra summons, maybe some sidemissions/back stories for the characters. The last part does it even need to be this big or its own game.

Annnd maybe FF just don't hit like they did years ago?? I'm just speaking for myself but FF16 was good to me but I'm done with FF games for a minute and there's plenty of great RPGs/JRPGs out there too

@DennisReynolds My guy with all due respect play the game because then you will realize that it isn't that hard of a story to follow, but I understand that you won't since you've already made up your mind about it like every other person that says it isn't a FF game.

@Martijn87 As one of the biggest FF7 fans around this game made me lose my interest it takes way to long.

The quality is quite nice but the budget is probably so high and they keep complaining about sales because of the budget.

If they sold me FF7R with updated graphics, the new controls and some small extras i would have been just as happy probably even more happy and it would have made way more profit.

And Square-Enix has to become realistic Final Fantasy will never ger COD numbers thars why you need to work better ans smarter withctour budget.

The problem with Square Enix is....well its Square Enix. They can barely make any decisions which don't raise concerns and actively pursue the golden goose at every turn.
They might sell a few more titles by pursuing Multi platform, but their biggest base is on playstation and that is likely to shrink without Sony's huge promotional efforts, so the overall gain will be small I think.

Until very recently, they have been actively pursuing NFT's, which tells you everything you need to know about SE's management acumen.
SE represents some talented developers and beloved IP's, managed and ran by muppets. Maybe I should apply!

@Titntin They need to wake up they will never become the new COD successtory and need to manage their budget towards that. Final Fantasy 7R should have been done a long time ago. I think the long wair even hurt the game by making the hype die down. That what happend to me i was sick of waiting and im suxh a big FF7 fan.

It's the shift to making FF games $70 now and not matching that price with quality imo. FF16 had awful performance issues at launch and graphically only looked really good during large boss fights. I didn't buy FF7R and am not interested to because of how blurry it looks in performance mode (judging from the demo) and it's $70 for the continuation of a story without a conclusion yet, which is nonsense. Had these games launched at a lower price, without issues and crisp visuals it might have been a different story. People sometimes hold off on buying games until they get patched, which affects early sales numbers.

There's no real reason a third party publisher like Square-Enix should be publishing on a single platform without a really, really good reason.

naaaahhhh.... Always unsatisfied Square Enix... same old story.

@Flaming_Kaiser I completely agree. FF7 is my favorite game and one I hold closest to my heart. It is also the game that got me on playstation. All they needed to do was update the graphics, create new FMV's, they might have even keep the turn based style. The budget would be normal, it would be one game, and the profits would be incredible. And fans won't have to wait for years.

I appreciate what they did and rebuild the world from the ground up. I mean it is amazing to see the world in remake and rebirth. But with three 70+ hour games looking like this and development time if years, they are looking at a billion dollar budget, if not more. They can never make that back, no matter on how many platforms it will be released on. XIII and XV destroyed the name of the franchise as a must have rpg. And they completely destroyed the hype of their holy grail project ,FF vii remake,with the trilogy formula.

There was a time when square enix's name would have made me excited for a new game but now...

FF16 - demo performance was awful, so turned me right off buying.
FF7 remake - just didnt impress me that much, and i didnt like the remakes convoluted direction.
FF7 Rebirth - because of the above, i just havent bothered with it yet - maybe i will when its on sale, of maybe i wont bother with it until I know part 3 will be good enough to invest the time.

I own them both and they are both excellent.

@Flaming_Kaiser I agree, they should have kept the Remake down to just one game instead of a Trilogy, it would have sold better that way as I'd wager there's a lot of people who are waiting for the third game to be done before investing into these games.

I I own them both and both are excellent. On Sacred Symbols CM ran through SE release schedule over the last three years and it was ridiculous. Almost one release a week. Sometimes two releases a week. They are cannibalising their own games.

Rebirth had the problem of being part of the FFVII trilogy.
Personally, on remake, I couldn't be bothered to do the last few vr fights, or do the entire replay of the game to get my last few trophies. Rebirth is so much better than remake, but not everyone will know that as the first one was very mink coat and no knickers.

FFXVI likely suffered due to the swearing for no reason, and that Dacia voice over guy. I was glad that for once, a Japanese game would not have phrases like 'candy' 'sidewalk' 'gee whizz' or any other American localisation phrases, but even as a Brit, the awful UK voices were jarring after a while. Also, XVI wasn't a real final fantasy. It was more a devil may cry arcade game..
I honestly can't remember ever having to alter my armour, change my weapon for an elemental advantage, or cast a certain spell to maximise damage against individual foes. You just put your best gear on with the best stats and hammer away. Once some people knew of the idiot mode you could enable using rings, it likely deterred some strategy fans as they knew anyone would easily be able to platinum it

As much as I love Final Fantasy 14 I have to say it..
F*ck Final Fantasy 14!.. It's a good MMORpg game but I am tired of hearing the 14 fans being disappointed that the new games are not like 14.

14 is not like any of the great Final Fantasy classics.

If anything I think it's about time for Square Enix to look further back for inspiration.

Screw the random encounters but bring back the ATB turn based combat.

Also lower the budget... As cool as the Eikon battles look they were too expensive to make.

Instead of making an action game with incredible visuals I wish they would focus on making a good RPG with great story and characters.. And they don't need to reinvent the wheel or change genre. They only need to try to be somewhat innovative within the boundaries of the genre.

Like they demonstrated that they are capable of doing with Octopath Traveler and Bravely Default.

It's been so long now since we had a Final Fantasy title with a more traditional system. So I actually think it would be refreshing to see a game returning to that style.

And it doesn't need to look like either Octopath traveler or Final Fantasy XVI, they could come up with a new look that still looks good but perhaps doesn't require such a huge budget.
(Perhaps take inspiration from the Final Fantasy IX FMV's for a more cartoonish style)

It's high time they returned to their roots and created a game that is a proper Final Fantasy game and not something else dressed up as a Final Fantasy game by just stuffing googles and chocobos in it.

Imagine someone releasing Chess 2 and it being a first person team shooter were each chesspiece is a player and the objective is the same as in chess (protect your king and take down your opponent's king)
I am sure that could be a fun game, but it would hardly be a proper chess game worthy of the title Chess 2.

If I think what Chess 2 should be, I think of a turn based boardgame with the same or similar objective as chess.
Perhaps introduce some new chess pieces with new movement and maybe have some slight changes to the board that allows for more complex strategising.

I feel the same about Final Fantasy or Mario or Zelda.
Stay true to the core gameplay formula for sequels.
And for different type of games, release them as spin off titles or branches from the mainline.

16 failed to meet my expectations, as did remake. Rebirth? No thank you.

@Nepp67 Don't need to play it as i already have and by the end i was happy i was done with it.

They would have sold 5 times as many copies if those games weren't locked on PS5. I hope they got a good deal with Sony. Also Squeenix loves to whine about sales for every single game.

@Mikey856 - Pretty much, which is a shame, because the games recently have been pretty good imo.

Judging from these comments, it sounds like the problem is a relatively simple one: Exaggerated expectations, from both SE and the community as a whole. Everyone seems to expect more from the series and seems to always find fault with whatever the series ends up doing, even when it delivers some pretty decent games, which can't be good for anyone looking to get into it. But at the same time, as has been pointed out earlier, the series as a whole isn't as popular as SE seems to think it is, which leads to statements like "it performed below expectations" even though the recent games have actually sold pretty well all things considered.
So yeah, maybe everyone needs to chill out a bit and not expect the series to redefine gaming or sell CoD levels of copies, because chances are, neither of those things is happening. Not from this series.

@UltimateOtaku91 Don't you have the same issue it takes so long it just brings down the hype and interest for me.

Just like watching a series or playing your favorite game if it takes to long i move on. Final Fantasy 7R if it would have been new controls with some extra i would have loved that.

The whole Rebirth thing with the relationships could have been a cool extra to be fair but it didn't need to be a whole seperate part of the game.

Not trying to hate but with the complaints about the the sales aka the profits they should be workijg smarter. And as much as i love FF7 had all those sales over more then two decade and at a lower price.

@Martijn87 I couls have been a slam dunk these graphics with the same story and some small extras. Maybe a extra Bahamut summon, that rumoured final sword for cloud damn i would have loved that. I would love to see Jessie survive somehow though. 😅

@FullMetalWesker Well I think that the realistic fans do not expect "more". Me personally I expect them to disappoint me at this point. But not because I want "More".

But if they didn't disappoint me, if they made the game I dream of.. Then I wouldn't expect more of it than Final Fantasy XVI or Final Fantasy VII Rebirth.

In fact I would expect that they could make such a game on a smaller budget, I expect that it would be a step down in graphics quality.

But I would expect better story, better characters, better music and a more tradition Final Fantasy formula.

And I think such a game would be a bigger hit.

I think that a lot of fans of the franchise feel the same way.
It's not that we expect "more", we just want a Final Fantasy game that feels and plays like a Final Fantasy game.
(Which could be done on a much lower budget if Square Enix wanted to)

@UltimateOtaku91 I would wager that a lot of those sales for X/X2 remake are also people who already had X and X2 for the PS2 and just wanted the upgrade.

Its interesting data as it shows that FF has never been this mega seller than Square seem to expect it should be as it sits as a niche area of rpgs in general.

Still up there as one of my all time top franchises, but Square really do need to ground their expectations a ltittle.

@Flaming_Kaiser I never played the original so when it came to the Remake I was really looking forward to playing the game everyone was raving about. But now that I've played both Remake and ReBirth I think it probably would have been best to just make it one game so I can get the full story without having to wait 10 years. Plus the cost of all three games will have costed me close to £200 but if they did a simple Remake it would cost people a lot less.

Plus in my opinion it's more than a Trilogy, as Reunion is a big party to understanding the full story. So really this FF7 Remake is split into 4 games.

When 3 million copies sold in the 1st week on top of the money received for exclusivity isn't good enough, you are in trouble as a company.

@UltimateOtaku91 I was thinking about this recently, and I agree that a lot of people will wait for the trilogy to be complete before buying into the series.

I also think that part of the general sales issue that all games are facing is that games are getting bigger to offer false value with collection bloat. As a result I find that I am rarely ever buying games on release now at full price simply because my backlog is huge, so they either arrive on PS+ and I get them for free or i pick them up at £15 6 - 12 months later.

That must hurt sales overall because I imagine a large proportion are of the same mindset.

Both FFs on PS5 are some of the most fun I’ve had with the console. Rebirth seemed like an extraordinarily expensive game to make but I’m surprised Square haven’t seen much return on investment for XVI. Great game but it didn’t strike me as having a monstrous budget.

At any rate, I don’t know what the solution is. Sony did their part and pushed both games pretty hard. If nothing else, it seems Rebirth had a pretty smooth development and many of the assets are now ready to go for the 3rd game.

That's a shame. They are both really great games. Still though, Square always seems to miss their expectations so honestly unless they came out and said these titles flopped I doubt either of them did that bad.

@UltimateOtaku91 I agree for 100% on everything.

@Rhaoulos That is a ridiculous claim. PS5 is the biggest of all current gen markets. Releasing on PC and Xbox would at best have it sell double, but it's unlikely it would go anywhere near that.
5 times is laughable.

It's funny how with less sales capcom considers DD2 a sucess and SE considers FF to not meet expectations.
I doubt production numbers were that different.

@DaniPooo - This type of response is pretty much what I'm talking about. You say you don't want more, but then specify that you want "better story, better characters, better music" which, last I checked, counts as wanting more than is being given. But the thing is, both 16 and VII Remake/ReBirth have been pretty good at these areas, generally speaking, so if even these games fail to meet expectations, then how good does it have to be to be considered "good enough"? Or is it that 'good enough' isn't actually, and it has to be perfection or bust?
But perhaps the problem lies elsewhere. You also mention "a traditional formula" which I have to interpret as meaning purely "turn based ATB combat" because XVI is really a FF game in every aspect except combat. Is this change colouring your analysis, preventing you from properly assessing the recent games on their own merits? But the biggest problem with this, is the assumption that FF needs this system in order to be 'legitimate' to which I ask: why? Yakuza/Like a Dragon is a recent example of a game series completely changing its gameplay style (going from a 3rd-person beat-em-up to a turn-based JRPG) and coming out the other side completely unfazed. Why can't Final Fantasy be allowed to do the same? Especially since: 1 - it's a series that has historically changed a lot of stuff with each installment, from setting, to style, to story (just look at how different each game has been from V onwards) and 2 - It's a series that has been trending towards action ever since the introduction of the ATB system in IV.

I dunno man. While I could see the criticisms for XIII and, to a lesser extent, XV, I don't see how XVI and the VII Remake Trilogy are bad enough to justify treating them as failures.

Such a shame! Rebirth is easily one of the best games I’ve ever played. Folks are missing out!

FF16 is an incredible game but its momentum drops like a rock after the Bahamut fight and story reveals. Moreover, the side-quests are absolute snooze-fests.

FF7 Rebirth is yet another extremely padded experience which is of more interest to long time fans of the original that want to experience every possible little thing about the world and lore. I played the original FF7 shortly after it came out and was disappointed with the padded Remake, having had to force myself to finish it. I find Rebirth to have made the same mistake on an even bigger scale.

Adding to all of this, Square Enix has a history of unrealistic sales expectations, which might be a result of a combination of expecting far too much on the sales front, having an overblown sense of the importance of its own IP, owing to how big it was in decades past, keeping it mostly exclusive to one ecosystem, and also not realising that the shortfalls of each game (as I described in the first 2 paragraphs) hamper its sales potential. So naturally we end up seeing these types of news headlines from the company once again.

@Flaming_Kaiser You keep saying you're a huge FF7 fan like it makes your opinion carry more weight or something. No one cares how big a fan you are, I'm a huge fan too and I loved it so what does that mean?

Everyone's opinion is equal, new fans, old fans, ultra fans, it doesn't matter.

@UltimateOtaku91 Maybe you can explain this to me because I don't understand the "waiting for the whole story argument". Is God Of War bad because you have to play upwards of 5 games to get the whole story and see Kratos' character development?

Is the Witcher bad for having to play 3 games to get the whole story? Or Uncharted? Or Lord Of The Rings? Why is it a problem for FF7 to have sequels that tell a complete narrative but everything else is Ay-Ok?

Not even trying to be rude or anything, this argument just never made sense to me and I'm tired of seeing it.

@Cloud39472 Yes but they are true sequels with their stories yet to be written/complete, but with Final Fantasy 7 the story was already complete in one game, but they have taken that story and split it up into 3 separate full priced games. Like ReBirth isn't actaully a sequel is it? I think that's the main problem people have and are probably waiting for a full trilogy collection. But at the same time the size and scope of the games have been extended massively in the Remakes so I guess that makes up for it but to some it doesn't mean anything to them they just see it as greed.

@UltimateOtaku91 Sure but you still know that you're going to have to wait upwards of 3-5 years to see it continue. If anything, knowing 7's story already should make the wait easier.

Anyone who claims greed is lacking in intelligence. This was a risky undertaking which they knew in the first place from the creatives of the original who wanted to do something bigger. Greed is part of the process perhaps, they are a business but ultimately you can see the care that's put into it from the development team.

It was obvious if you looked at how weak the legs were for FF16. It sold that 3 million and completely fell off every chart,that’s not a smash hit.

@DennisReynolds or, word of mouth was good, but people are not that interested in a new FF game.

@FullMetalWesker Well, better story, characters and music is not related to cost as this is more of an artistic focus.
(I've seen indie games do better than Square Enix in recent years on these things)

I do not only want better story characters and music. I am saying that I am fine with them compromising on the budget and graphics among other things to achieve that.

So no, it's not that I want more.. I just want different. And I am potentially fine with less if they start going the right direction. But they think it's more important to put their budget on awesome graphics and fast paced action with a million sparkling particle effects every time you swing the sword.

I can assess that the recent games are good for what they are..
I genuinely did enjoy my time with Final Fantasy XVI and VII Rebirth.

But they do not tickle the Final Fantasy spot for me, they just don't.

It's as if Nintendo announces a new Mario game, but it turn out it's a first person shooter Mario with almost no platforming. Nintendo would never do that and say that it's the next title in the mainline.
Because they have a clear understanding of the Mario formula.
If they released such a game it would be classed as a spinoff title.

But Square Enix on the other hand have lost the perspective on what the core gameplay formula should be.
They just think "Oh MMO's and action prints money so let's take Final Fantasy that direction".

And I think that is the wrong approach.

They can still make action Final Fantasy games and MMO Final Fantasy games.. (But classify it as offshoot branches from the mainline or spin-off titles then, it worked for Persona for example)

Or you know create new action IP's that are actually good?

And before you write: "But Final Fantasy has always been innovating and experimenting"
I am sick and tired of this argument. Yes they have always done that, but generally within the boundaries of the turn-based RPG genre. I do not agree with them completely abandoning this genre in favour of action and online.

I would have been fine with them releasing the action based games as a off-shoot branch and being vocal about that.
And I would even be fine with them prioritising their budget on the action based games as long as the true RPG mainline branch still existed and there was still games being worked on in this branch (even if they were lower budget)

The sad thing is that there's pretty much no replacement for the Classic Final Fantasy games.
Most other jRPG franchises are action oriented, low budget anime games where you can spend extra money on swimsuit outfits for your characters. Dragon Quest is probably the closest thing we have but that has a very different tone compared to Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy had this more adult tone with a very delicate taste for art and music.

Dragon Quest was more aimed towards everyone with a more cartoony and humoristic style.

Kinda like comparing Lord of the Rings with Harry Potter.

The majority of pc only gamers have no interest in FF.

The majority of Xbox only owners have no interest in paying big money for FF. They wouldn't be Xbox only players if they had an affinity for that ip.
Square are kidding themselves, they need to look at their insane budgets for these FF games that started with 13 and 13 versus (15)
The series isn't that popular anymore to sustain God of war style budgets

@Flaming_Kaiser yeah those two bombed for sure. Not sure they will try any more titles like that for a while. I love FF16, i think it’s a great game. But i am sure it was expensive to make and needed closer to 5 million in sales. Which they likely could have done if they hit all 3 platforms at launch. Still not sure why FF7 isn’t doing so well. That game looks beautiful, i didn’t play it as it’s not my thing. But 16 was a great experience for me. I need to pick up the DLC.

I don’t give a damn about the poor sales. The only thing i cared is im really enjoyed FF16. One of the best FF i played. I do love remake but got burned out at the end so im skipped the rebirth. If i have to pick either one,easily FF16

Some people needed proof about Final Fantasy Rebirth poor sales performance....I guess Square Enix's brought the proof they needed.

@naruball Sales started strong then fell off, that's never a good sign that people liked it.

@Smash41 it's not so simple. Look at which games have been exclusive and which are the biggest sellers. I'll bet they overlap and that the top 5 exclusives have sold more than all the multi-platform titles combined.

@Cloud39472 Sometimes i dont know why people are triggered every time. The simple example i want to make if even the biggest FF7 fans stop caring then something is going wrong. Like it or not the remake is probably a lot of sales with the fanbase. Final Fantasy is a niche game if you look how old the franchise is and the sales.

@HonestHick For me i sojt want to wait for years to play the complete experience why not wait and get the complete experience with the best performance, looks and probably price.

Not yet another media outlet repeating the line from a discredited Bloomberg journalist as fact again.

This guy said that XVI failed to meet SE expectations, but it turned out the transcript said it met the lower end of their expectations.

Foamstars is obviously garbage but Rebirth and XVI are both very good games. They need to do day 1 multiplat and decrease fidelity. Its just not worth it.

Rebirth is the highest rated game of 2024 so far and of course its sales aren't high enough to justify the quality and amount of game you get in it

It's also gotta be that these are hugely budgeted games for what amounts to a typically niche product in a busy marketplace. I really liked FFXVI and I am enjoying Rebirth but there is so much bloat and unnecessary mechanics in those games. They feel like solid 20 hour games stretched huge. I think ultimately they need to scale back budgets and scopes if they want to be more profitable.

@thechetearly Yup, its the best game of the year so far. highest rated and so much fun

@Flaming_Kaiser I could flip that though, I'm a huge FF fan and I buy the games, figures, soundtracks, posters etc I love Rebirth so clearly if a huge FF fan like me loves it then things must be going incredibly well.

Do you get what I'm saying and why what you're trying to imply is ridiculous?
I could just say maybe you're not as big a fan as you thought you were.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean squat. Just like me loving it amounts to the same thing.

All i will say is, most people who have played it have enjoyed it and you can look at reviews across the board that speak for themselves. Take that for what you will.

@Zenos Hard disagree. We have FF14 already and people who like that would be playing FF14. We don't need the same game over and over.

16 is great in the way it is.

@Benjiro XVI clearly ran out of money after the bahamut fight, the final 1/3rd of the game is so bad.

Disagree with Rebirth, its a very fun game, if you don't wanna do the minigames, don't do them.

@Cloud39472 It still didn't sell enough lots of people didn't find it that special and i give my personal opinion.

Its not like im the guy who says what's wrong or right just my personal view. A remake that takes over decade to make is to expensive, takes to long so people move on, and has a massive price for the consumers.

Im sorry to break to you but remakes mostly are made for existing fanbase who grows older and will eventually not care anymore.

I wouldn't play most FF games for free. Not trying to be rude or anything, but I know I'm not the only one.

Bought the game but overall it wasn't my cup of tea. The sale numbers aren't that bad since they skipped the PS4 version mid development. Good choice they chose to go full in on the PS5 platform and leave cross-gen behind. Double edged sword ... Technical best version, but less sales!

The FF series was what I grew up on and changed my life. But it died after 9 and has been dead and buried for me for a LONG time. With a few decent exceptions (XII, 7R, 7RB) every game since 9 has gotten worse I think. Remake was way too divisive and should have just stuck with the original story. That being said, 90% of Rebirth was everything fans ever wanted so I'm shocked its underperforming.

Loved FF16

They need to do exactly what they are planning. At a minimum release the games on PC from Day 1.

SE failed in making a good FF game again.

@Flaming_Kaiser You clearly don't only give your personal opinion though because you keep speaking for other people.

FF still sells more than 99% of JRPG's the problem is that FF made a name for itself for being the big budget cutting edge JRPG series but the amount of people interested in said games doesn't add up to the growing development costs to keep it that way.

You're not breaking anything to me because i am part of the existing fanbase. I am an OG FF7 fan but you seem to be missing my point.

@invictus4000 This isn't anything against you but it's kind of ironic you mention everything after 9 because 9 is one of the worst selling FF titles (I also think 9 is fantastic by the way, no hate)

Why are the best FF games the ones that underperform 😔

Final Fantasy XVI was good, but it certainly wasn't GOTY material for me.

I have yet to really dive deep into Final Fantasy VII Rebirth.

It's probably significantly cheaper to plan for multi-platform release during development rather than focus on a single platform and port later.

So even if 10 million sales were on PS5, 8 million were on PC, and only 2 million were on Xbox, that's still $700 million on PS5, $560 million on PC, and $140 million on Xbox (at $70/game).

That's 20 million sales and $1.4 billion!

If a game costs more than that to make across PC, Xbox, and PlayStation, you've got problems.

Even still, I highly doubt the included cost of porting to Xbox comes even close to $140 million - especially if it's included in overall development costs from the start and a PC version using DX12 is already being worked on.

Sure, it's not as much as PC and PlayStation, but it's still money (and probably still a good profit).

If Switch is on the table, then that's even more money in the pocket - but you have to plan for that during development, not port after the fact and spend tons of money figuring out how to "fit" on Switch.

@Cloud39472 I'm definitely in the wait camp. I bought Remake, may or may not buy rebirth in a deep sale bin in the next 4-6 years, but I haven't played past the beginning of remake. Why bother starting a story with a cliffhanger and then wait YEARS before continuing the story. Expecially when you already know the base story? I'm just not interested in investing time until I have the whole thing and you know a "remaster" will already be out for the first one or two before the third part anyway, it might not even be on this gen's hardware. And they'll probably sell a trilogy bundle shortly after launch so you get better versions, pay less, and actually get to complete the investment in the story without interrupting it for years so you no longer care by the time the next part comes out. I think for people that never played the original it feels like a "new" story with "new" sequels so waiting is fine. If you know the original...... Imagine starting a replay of FFX, then after you get to Besaid you put it down for 4 years. Then you pick it up again and play, and then after you get to Kilika you put it away for another 4 years ,and change hardware platforms twice. At some point you just never come back to it and finish. 7R is like that.

Heck, at the rate of the current consoles I may end up switching to PC by the time the series finishes. And I was all in when they revealed it just after I'd bought my launch PS*4*....

About FFIX: 9 got robbed. The reason it sold less isn't because of the game. Poorly received games in a series tend to impact the one that comes AFTER it, after people play a thing and realize they don't like it and hesitate on the next one. FF8 was controversial, and so the negative sales impacted 9. But more importantly, is release timing. FF9 released AFTER PS2 launched in Japan, and interested in anything PS1 cratered amidst PS2 hysteria. And PS2 was only a few months away in the rest of the world. The poor game just got drowned out in PS2 hype.

@Titntin Again, with XV, 40% of their sales were on PS, 10% of their sales were on XB, 50% of their sales were on PC. I'm not sure a conclusion can be drawn that FF can't do better not exclusive to PS. That doesn't even account for launching a proper FF on a Nintendo platform at ALL.

@get2sammyb The franchise is definitely not as big as they think it is, that's been clear for 20 years, and they need to stop budgeting like it's freaking Call of Duty, and budget for a JRPG correctly.

On the other hand, XV's sales were 50% of PC, 50% split across consoles, and I suspect since those reports PC only continued growing and consoles are stagnant for it. I think there's good evidence to say that "Modern" Sony's market (outside Push's forum) is not the old Sony market, and the games that used to excite the old crowd don't sell to the new crowd. A lot of Square's market seems to have moved on to PC, and we don't even have an insight as to how well FF will do launching in a Nintendo platform day and date. I suspect if they make it a proper JRPG it'll excel on Nintendo which is more of the old Sony market than Sony has today.

@NEStalgia You completely ignore the PS4 market. If SE wish to gimp their game to run on old hardware like the switch, then there's a huge potential PS4 market which would have substantially affected the sales potential of these games (Rebirth and 16) on the sony systems. I thought 16 and rebirth are coming to PC anyway, so that seems like a blind path to chase, in that they will still have access to that lucrative market? (I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong)

@Flaming_Kaiser yeah that makes sense. I think most gamers feel that way. I could take it or leave it. Whatever is best for the studio and of course us getting better games im ok with it. But yeah complete games seems like the way to go, at least for now.

They (SE) can try their multiplatform approach but the result will be the same. Their games can't run on Nintendo Switch and Xbox gamers don't even buy games anymore especially JRPGs. Just compare the sales of all the multiplatform SE games. In the end, the majority of their sales will come from PlayStation and PC just like now. And they will wonder why their sales didn't triple with two more platforms. The problem lies elsewhere.

The problem is that their games are often terrible, sometimes great, but mostly middling. They cannot seem to evolve their games in the right direction even though they want to. They have developed tunnel vision where they have become fixated/obsessed with cutting-edge visuals and action combat. Those are NOT the things that make a great RPG.

RPGs need great writing in terms of both story and characters. They need a great soundtrack to make them pleasant to play and remember even after you turn them off. They need character and gear customization with build potential so players can play how they want (stealth, magic, physical, ailments, etc). They need fun, engaging, and rewarding side quests and activities that people can lose themselves in for hours willingly. Finally, they need some kind of player agency and choices when it comes to moral/ethical choices, important plot points, and fates of characters. Why can't SE figure this out is beyond me.

Lot's of articles around SE the last day, but I think most are missing the mark. Development costs have gone way up in the last 20 years and yet game prices haven't kept up. The end result is that AAA games don't get the return that they used to, and they are no longer going to be worth it. Expect SE to continue with Final Fantasy as their passion project, but other AAA entries will be axed. SE will shift to multiplatform smaller budget games going forward.

This really isn't going to be unique to SE though. Expect the entire industry to shift in that direction. AAA games are going to go out of style and become few and far between.

The only reason I played some of Remake was that I got it thru PS+, otherwise I would've ignored it just like 16 and Rebirth. That type of gameplay is not what I want from a Final Fantasy game.

@Dramlin "Expect the entire industry to shift in that direction. AAA games are going to go out of style and become few and far between."

We could only hope that's true! It's become absurd both in hardware and software. It's been completely off course for ages. But what will the hardware industry do if they can't sell new $2000 GPUs every other year? That's really what's been driving gaming. Hardware companies coming up with new reasons to have to push the hardware and software artists all to eager to do so, whether anyone's willing to pay for it or not.

@Titntin I meant Switch 2, which was already soft-announced. Switch 1 is done and dusted. It's "in transition." I doubt Square's putting anything new there, but these things will be on Switch 2 which will at worst be PS4 equivalent and possibly better. Yeah, IDK why they made these games PS5-only, especially Rebirth, when half their market was on PS4 already, but I'm assuming the Sony payment also had something to do with that. Sony was looking for PS5 games to promote their system and no doubt paid to get PS5 games. (Yes, I know Sony's own games were targeting PS4 at the time but they were long in development at that point.)

All we know is that Square's big games were locked to a platform of no more than 50mil potential customers and realistically barely a fraction of that would ever have been interested in their game, as PS's new breed of customer isn't the old breed that bought Square's games, most of those customers shifted to Nintendo and PC.

@Dramlin I feel like missing the mark is intentional at this point. Even using the bloomberg "sales analyst" as a supposedly legitimate source is laughable on its own.

Maybe they didn't need to reinvent FFVII to this degree. The original was plenty successful as a PlayStation exclusive.

@get2sammyb
Final Fantasy is definitely not as popular as it once was. It used to be able to sell PlayStation consoles, that clearly isn't the case anymore. While the numbers seem fine enough taken on their own, I'm sure not just SquareEnix, but Sony had higher hopes for the impact XVI and VII Rebirth would make, and though both are quality games, it seems pretty obvious they didn't help move hardware.
It's also possible that this has more to do with a bad economy but I don't remember any of the more recent FF games setting sales charts on fire and XIII and XV weren't the most loved games by fans and are probably where things started going off course.

Square enix has a habit of trashing franchises and dragging them out/milking them beyond the point that causes interest to wane unfortunately.

It's hit kingdom hearts (which was great but for the sake of sequels they trashed the storyline/made it excessively convoluted), and now FF suffers. 16 wasn't the worst game ever, but it's been ages since a quality story existed.

And regrettably the FF7 remakes are just outright milked games for money. And it probably sits with upper management, and some directors too (Nomura....).

Some exec probably went "wow, if we pad out and convolute this game we can sell three games instead!" Not realising/acknowledging the development costs would easily skyrocket, and the quality of the games would plummet.

And I think that's the biggest issue with square at present, they set these high sales targets, they gear up to make huge profits, and then they push out increasingly inferior games with bloat, miss opportunities with their new IPs(so they kill the IP) and degrade their existing IPs.

Nothing's changed unfortunately, and won't probably change ever at this rate

Takashi Mochizuki as the only source on this once again.
His reports are routinely wrong. I'm reserving judgment.

@HonestHick i disagree mate. If a company wants to pay the price for third party exclusivity, I see no problem. Console makers aren’t entitled to every third party game. Besides Xbox isn’t exactly known as a place for non-western games.

I found both of these titles to be excellent, and I enjoyed 16 more than Rebirth for many reasons, including Clive is simply a much better protagonist than Cloud.

Making these games available to a wider audience will likely be more beneficial to the company than any exclusivity deal would.

Its not the FF games fault its square enix bad decision to keep them sony console exclusives. FF7 remake sold a lot because it was multiplatform. I heard square plans to make the ff7 remake part 3 also sony console exclusive and that will be detrimental to fans not on the sony monopoly

@Vaako007 MS paid the price for ABK. Should all those games never see light of day on PS? I thought we were all whining about that during the trial. Xbox isn’t known for anything at the moment let’s be real HAHA

@UltimateOtaku91 what about Elden Ring though. Somehow that game was a massive hit

I feel like if they didn’t bloat Rebirth with tons of minigames and open world stuff they would have spent a lot less making the game, and would have been a less risky investment. And more people like myself would be inclined to buy it, who are growing weary of massive games and don’t have the time

@HonestHick since Microsoft owns ABK and those IPs, PS definitely isn’t entitled to them IMO. Of course the PS user base is too big to ignore for the bean counters at Microsoft. So many will come to PS. At this rate it seems like all which is a mistake on their part IMO. But yea Xbox has been a big disappointment for me since Microsoft has so many first party studios even before ABK. Yet here we are haha.

@Vaako007 agreed! MS can’t run a business to save its life. If half the companies were smart and had the money they would switch to Mac OS and never come back to malware buggy haven windows. Even the VPN on windows is broken. Haha

I’m glad to see you say they could keep their Ip’s, many wouldn’t. Most gamers just cheer for their platform to spend money for games and keep them away from other platforms. I like to see games played by more players on the screens they care to own. So i am torn cause on one hand i understand the importance of exclusives but do like to see games on more platforms for players. Time will tell but I believe the PC space is too big for Sony to ignore and they will be bring all games to the PC soon.

@HonestHick Microsoft has always been in a lucky position that all companies face whom are early pioneers for a field. Microsoft as you know was the first to make an OS that worked for the consumer PC space in which others thought only a small niche of people would be interested in. Since then they are the defacto leader in this field and people will buy just because of the reputation. Even through Mac OS and other lesser known OS’s work well. Microsoft has the market share so people develop for it mostly. I digress.

I try not to be a hypocrite when it comes to things of the world. I want Xbox to be competitive like they were in the PS3/X360 era. Which would cause Sony and the eastern developers to up their game. Which would be great for all.

@Vaako007 i agree well said. We need competition in all things in the world or companies will get lazy and hike the price up. Xbox will be around in some form for a while still. PS is for sure the worldwide popular brand but Xbox could do a little better if they stopped making dumb decisions and release great game after great games. Time will tell. I am looking forward to the PS and Xbox showcases coming up. We should start to see what these console can do. Shouldn’t be much cross gen games left.

@HonestHick For me personally its cheaper i dont buy incomplete games on day one. I skipped the last GOW and waited on a discount because of the strange CE Sony releases €299 with digital only game. Also i dont know if its the truth but it looks like Sony pushes developers to only put version 1.0 on the disc now anotjer reason to buy at a discount with backlogs its even a better choice.

@Flaming_Kaiser yeah CE’s with a digital code is odd. Seems like the future but i can’t imagine most buyers are pleased with it. Digital is for convenience and what not, Physical is very much a collector thing and they normally go for disc’s in a CE. I’ve been digital for over 10 years. But i like the steel books.