Topic: Resolution or Frame Rate?

@BLP_Software I wrote 'any game running sub 1080p looks rubbish nowadays.'

What I meant was;

Any game running sub 1080p on a 44+ inch TV sat at the recommended and optimum seating position doesn't look as good and more often than not woeful when compared to games showcasing a 1080p and upwards resolution.

There are objections to this rule of course and the art direction plays a part.

@themcnoisy Ah. So what you wrote isnt what you meant.

Might want to fix that for future.

Its like me saying games look terrible above 1080p.

What i actually mesn but you dont know from what I said is thst I cant see objects on the screen at higher resolutions due to the greater pixel count and thus higher abundance of mixing colours due to a disability.

But you couldnt tell that from my first statement.

In all seriousness though I do hold the belief that any extra pixels are wasted if it doesnt run smoothly.

@BLP_Software I do ageee with @themcnoisy there, since I've been playing games on my UHD TV and Pro it's really noticeable going down to 1080p and below looks really bad. In fact, the novalty of seeing resolutions higher than 1080p has started to wear off on me now and it just looks normal.

@kyleforrester87 That works for you guys.

It doesnt for me. I accept that and sadly you cant change what isnt really an opinion but an unfortunate fact of my life

@BLP_Software Who's trying to change your opinion? You think I reckon if I write a sentence about UHD TV's being cool you'll run out and buy one?

More power to you bud. It's all good.

@kyleforrester87 You wouldnt be the first to try you know. Ive been told its the best thing ever and no one listens because sorry, not for these eyes.

I also have to stress its not that I choose not to use UHD. Its that it looks worse so why eould I? Id be paying for a downgrade.

@BLP_Software ' So what you wrote isnt what you meant.'

No, it summarized how I feel then to satisfy you I wrote the reasoning behind the sentence. Not that I had to but I made a special case for a special person.

@kyleforrester87 cheers mate, yeah it does make a difference. Not that it makes games instantly unplayable but it's not great.

As someone also with a 4k TV, I do think that 1080p and under, do tend to look a bit 'meh' visually. Its not quite as bad as jumping between this gen and last gen as the lighting etc as improved somewhat but its almost that bad. 1080p for example is equivalent to 540p on a HD TV - effectively at a lower resolution than PS3/XB360 games achieved. 720p is the equivalent of 1440p on a 4k TV. The same percentage of upscaling is required to fit the screen.

I wouldn't say a 1080p game looks rubbish, but on a 4k screen, 75% of it is interpolated pixels - not native. Only 25% of the image is 'real'. That drops down to less than 20% with 900p so you can see why the image quality isn't the 'best' it could be. On a HD TV, 1080p maps 1:1 so looks really sharp. Even 900p looks a bit 'soft' despite having 75% of the pixels as 'native'. Even 720p can look sharper on a 1080p TV than 1080p does on a 4k TV because 720p has more native pixels and less interpolated pixels.

I understood what @themcnoisy meant. Its not that games look 'bad', but on a 4k Screen, they look worse because of all the upscaling. Its the equivalent of watching a DVD on a HD TV and then comparing that to the Bluray version...

@themcnoisy Im the only person alive who seems to have this issue.

Well actually I have spoken to another. I guess you guys have an issue accepting that for some people 1080 is as high as they can go, similar to you guys where 1080 is now as low as you go.

But the difference is is that you feel 1080p is as low as possible before to you it looks bad in your opinion. For someone like me, 1080p is as high as it can go before it becones difficult to see things on the screen.

Its why I prefer FPS over redolution. Id rather have a buttery smooth experience at 60 or 120 than be, eventually (unfortunately because we know the companies are chasing resolution above anything else and 1080p wont be an option sooner than later) locked out of playing games because of a disability.

@BLP_Software Real life has infinite pixels and an even greater range of colours, does that mean you can't see anything at all in that case?

@BLP_Software I'm sorry bro but I'm having a really hard time extrapolating just what you are going on about. I'm colour blind too and suffer especially on first person twitch shooters as colors merge and I can't make opponents out properly. Obviously I can't see what you see, but my colour blindness in no way effects my viewing of clarity within the spectrum I can differentiate. I struggle when certain colors clash, playing rocket league I literally couldn't see an opponent who was orangey in colour in the red goal last night (happens quite a lot because of the colours the game used) But that's the same at 1080p or on the ancient 720 TV upstairs.

Anyway, frame rate for me and resolution second, but in an ideal world we would already be at 1080/60fos already.

Thanks @BAMozzy great thread I won't derail it anymore pal.

@Octane Real life isnt measured in pixels and in a lot of cases yes, I cant see things.

Mockery of a disability seems common on this site.

@themcnoisy Ive sat diwn with 4k movies and games with friends. It blurs together and objects become invisible because there are more instances of colour.

It depends on your severity. Every person is different with it. So for some it can benefit and others it cant. Im in the cant due to seeing only 3 shades of red and green respectively.

@themcnoisy Thanks

Colour Blindness though and how it affects people is still very pertinent to this topic as it can be a 'significant' reason for opting for Resolution OR Frame Rate depending on how their condition affects them. I think it is very relevant and maybe can help others understand that we are not all blessed with the gift of full vision and how that can impact on their gaming. I hope, if anything, that the discussion regarding Colour blindness (or colour vision deficiency as it should perhaps be referred to for accuracy) really helps others have a better understanding of this as well as why those people with it opt to favour one over another in this instance.

Discussing it openly in the forum, as long as it is in relation to the main topic (i.e Resolution or Frame Rate) and why that may determine their choice is both relevant and informing. As someone with 'good' eyesight (about all that does work properly ), I can't begin to understand how others see things.

I would have thought that more colours, more contrast and more pixels would bring a greater range and more detail for those afflicted. I can understand if you can't see a 'specific' colour or two, that if these were together, they may 'look' the same but with many more pixels, the chances that 'two' pixels would have the same tonal value but be 'different' in colour is I thought, significantly decreased. Add in HDR wich expands the colour range as well as increasing the contrast - the difference between the brightest and darkest points, I would have thought that would be much better for those with colour vision deficiencies. Not only do you have a much wider colour gamut so tonal colours are even less likely to appear - especially if you factor in the Contrast too - Something with the 'same' tonal appearance can now be much brighter than other's for example.

The point of increased resolution and HDR is to capture more 'realistic' looking images, more like looking out of the window or spending time outside. We don't see in Pixels so the 'smaller' the pixel, the more 'accurate' and lifelike an image can be. I know people talk about viewing distances - blah blah blah but if you own a 1080p TV and look at objects in the 'mid' range, they can appear 'soft' or 'blurry'. Our brains can work out that 'flat' blurry lump of green is 'Grass' because of what's around it. At 4k, that Grass has 'texture', much like it does in real life - a Cat with Ginger and White Stripes that look a bit smudged into each other at 1080p, now looks more like Fur and more defined Stripes with more tonal orange pattern too at 4k that was blurred out in 1080p. It may not 'benefit' too much when you are focused on a close up shot of a newscaster until you see a bit of hair breakage on some stray hairs or the Pin stripes on their suit don't always look 'sharp'. I don't see how some Colour deficiency would be affected by seeing the difference in a black with white pinstripes or ginger and white cats looking more defined with all the different tonal values, even the Grass with more 'shadow' detail which creates more 'texture' can be affected either. Its more about adding in more 'definition, more light/dark areas in more distant objects - more shade and highlights that all get 'blurred' or smudged together when you don't have 'enough' pixels to show light and dark.

Its the same principal we had years ago with gaming. 1 pixel was used as a Ball in Pong, Doubling the resolution would still mean 4 pixels (2x2) would be used to make that ball so it would still be square. Doubling up again and now 16pixels (4x4) can make that ball - enough to take the corners off and make it appear more round - even possible to use a bit darker pixels on one side, a bit lighter pixels on the other and create the illusion of a more 3D image. Doubling up the resolution again, and now and we have 64 (8x8) pixels and with that we can add more detail, make the ball look much more like a 'football, a 'tennis' ball etc.

When it comes to 'real' life images portrayed on a 'modern' flatscreen TV, details are 'lost' - particularly more distant/smaller objects and depending on the TV's resolution. If for example, you have a 'tree' with its green leaves against the light blue sky, assuming half the leaf falls into one pixel and the other half is (or should be) Sky, you get a 'mix' of the green and light blue filling that pixel as it can't split in two. That leads to 'inaccuracies' and some 'blur' or 'smudge' in more distant objects, why some things seem more 'flat' because they can't do the light and dark in one pixel. Its like trying to draw Mario in an 8x8 grid and then a same size block but now have 16x16 in that space.

What HDR can bring is a significant increase in the light and dark. A fires 'oranges and reds' should be much 'brighter' than the 'oranges or reds' of a characters clothes or say greens and browns if that gets 'confused' with these colours. Now if that character stands in front of a fire, instead of blending in, the fire on either side would be much brighter and hopefully stand out more. The wider colour gamut could also mean more 'difference' between say a red and a green - one could appear more brighter tonally than the more darker toned green.

Of course I am not one that suffers so I can't say how someone else who does views the world - which is why I think this is great that people can try to explain how it affects them and why maybe the jump to 4k, HDR etc may not be as welcome for them and why they may prefer a focus Frame Rate above Resolution.

As long as it doesn't turn into an argument and respect each other of course...

@BLP_Software I hope I haven't mocked you. I also hope this thread enables you to freely discuss it from your perspective and if anything, I really hope that people get a better understanding of how this can affect everything - although I hope that its still kept relevant to the topic but others can apply that to everyday life for you. I really hope that with a better understanding, any 'mockery' ceases too. I know what living with disability can be like as I too am disabled as well. My disability does impact on the direction gaming could go - mostly VR but VR can also open up a world of possibility that I am unable to enjoy in Real life too.

Anyway that's a bit off topic.

This thread has been an interesting read because when it comes to visuals, people have a range of different needs and requirements (from preferences to phsyical needs). As graphical fidelity and performance become the new battleground for consoles and gaming, I think console manufacturers/developers really need to start offering options. I know that some will say, just buy a PC, but we are entering an era where, like PC's, peoples home setup for TV's and accessiblility to use all this new tech means it needs some level of configurability.

@BAMozzy As I only see, in real life, a few shades of red and green, you would THINK more tones would be beneficial. But in reality,its more different shades for you, but for me because I only see 3 shades of red, those different tones you guys see compared to 1080, are still those same 3 shades. So in you seeing a more defined image, I see a less defined image because where you get the extra detail as the image intends, where that colour equals detail, I dont see that detail, because the colours and contrasts aren't there.

In the colour orange for instance, I see 2 shades. Thats it. Every other shade that you see is one of those two for me. So no matter how many they add to a fire, its still one of two.

Thats the problem with 4k and HDR. When you see more colours I see the same colours.

Its why I play so many 8 or 16 bit games. The higher the resolution and colour range, the more I see as the few shades my eyes can see. And as a result the less I actually see.

@BLP_Software with your colour perception you suffer with that represents a tiny fraction of the populous. I don't think it's fair to point out my initial point was wrong, when I need to insert 'except in extreme cases of colour blindness'.

Other than that BLP, power to you for gaming and realizing you have hit a saturation point of sorts, I understand now how my point could come across as somewhat callous. So I apologize if I came across as abrupt. My own struggles with colour have vague similarities to what you have written, although in my instance a better resolution helps, as does HDR.

@BLP_Software There's no mockery. I get that a old school black and white game like Pong is easier on the eyes than a current gen game, but I don't think the resolution is the problem. If Pong was 4K, you'd still see the same Pong. The same is true for current gen games, you don't see any less of The Last Guardian in 4K than you would in 1080p. I think the issue you're describing is contrast. That has maybe more to do with the visual style of games than anything else. A more cartoon-y game with more easily defined borders between the colours and less colours overall should be a more defined image than a game that relies on a ton of colours and shades.

@themcnoisy Yeah its cool. Its hard to explain when you cant show it visually.

I have hit a saturation point sadly. And i do look forward with dread because now what do I do? I lose out on something thats part of my life.

@BLP_Software The point I was trying to make is that with 4k and HDR, developers can use more 'contrasting' colours as well as using a different Luminescence for each. In terms of detail, for example, you can have 'more' detail by having more pixels with more 'contrasting' colours. Where something may be red for example as that is a 'problem' for you, at 1080p, the pixel would be less likely to be able to show a difference but with 4k, you could have a 'dark' red shadow against a 'light' red. Because a 1080p TV would blend the dark and light red together and come up with a medium red, you lose that contrast. The more 'pixels' the less 'blurring' together.

A single 1080p Pixel is equivalent to 4 pixels at 4k. In the example above, assume that the left is 'light' and right is dark, you may only see '3 tones of 'red' but at 1080p, you only get the 'one' tone because its blurring the 'dark and light' together to get a 'medium tone - therefore I would have thought there is more 'chance' to have more contrasting tones.

The other aspect of course with HDR is the greater use of contrast in brightness. Again to use the fire, if the orange of the fire was 'identical' tonally speaking, but the fire was significantly brighter than the orange of the garment, wouldn't that stand out more? The fact that the fire is showing much greater brightness wouldn't that help to make it stand out more? Its the same principal as having a red LED on a Red object for example and the 'brighter glow' of the LED stands out even though its still the same 'Red' or having a white sheet of paper and someone using a welding torch - one is significantly brighter but still both white. HDR, I would have thought, would offer Colour vision deficient people much more contrast and the extra pixels of 4k, a greater likelihood of more contrasting colour than a 1080p SDR TV offers. HDR isn't say using a 'lighter' red to create the illusion of 'brighter' red, its literally pumping out much more 'light' than the 'same' red and whilst I can't begin to understand what life must be like, is it not possible to see the 'difference' in brighter objects in real life for you? Can you not look at a real fire and see how much more light that gives off compared to say a photograph of a fire or a t-shirt that's a similar colour? You eyes are still receiving much more light from the fire than from the t-shirt. The same goes for the glowing red embers of a fire and say a red carpet in front of the fire - can you not tell the embers are 'glowing'? HDR gives that effect - makes a fire 'glow' compared to some similar coloured object - like a red flag or orange sash.

Please don't think I am mocking you in any way, I am only trying to understand more about the way you see things and why 4k and/or HDR may not work well for you. I am really surprised that HDR in particular is a 'struggle' as I would have thought at least the different brightness (the different amount of light rather than tonal shading) given off would have helped. Seeing that fire glow much brighter than a similarly coloured object that isn't glowing bright, stand out much more clearly with HDR.

4k itself shouldn't make to much of a difference than 1080p - at least in my mind because you have more chance of more contrasting colours next to each other - certainly wouldn't expect it to look worse.

I can understand why more basic graphics, like 8 bit or 16bit at a push, would be of benefit because of the way they were designed. Often on a bright or dark background - depending on whether they have a dark or bright character - would help. Often they used quite contrasting colours to separate the Characters (inc Enemies) from the background. 2D Mario opted for Dark against light and games like Asteroids, Space Invaders, Defender etc all opted for light against dark.