Topic: Videogames preservation in Sony systems

@YummyHappyPills Null and void I would think.
I mean you don't truly own any PS+ game. You rent it for the duration of your PS+ membership. That could probably extend towards the systems life cycle or they could just let you keep any game you have downloaded. It'll be interesting when that time comes.
However, I do think that the PS5 will be BC with digital PS4 games at the very least. I'm pretty confidant that this will be a thing.
That brings up another issue- You can't purchase a downloaded PS+ game. They have to sort that out. Otherwise there are countless number of games you'll never be able to own digitally as you already technically 'own' them through PS+.

Off topic: I'm really looking forward to how Nintendo's paid online service turns out.

IGC games, like GwG XB1 games as the 360 games are free with a 'permanent' licence, are tied to your account and the license to play is held online (I believe) with your account. If you lose the ability to connect your console online, you also lose the access to those games. There is no way for the game to check if you have a valid license to play. The license to play IGC games is conditional - you have to have a valid PS+ account. If the console cannot check if you own PS+ then you will not be permitted to play. Its done this way so that if your PS+ subscription is about to run out for example, you can't take your console off line and keep playing those games indefinitely.

I agree that Sony should allow you the option to 'buy' games outright if you got them from IGC. Its difficult to do because the game code is the same - its just the 'license' to play that differs. You could of course buy any of AAA games physically to own them outright and I doubt Sony would just switch off the Online to the console without much notification. It may well be a good idea to get those indie/arcade games completed.

@Fight_Teza_Fight @BAMozzy Interesting.

I did see with my one IGC Game (Before I caught on to how it works) is something Id need to buy...despite having already paid for it multiple times over.

Makes you think the long term value of PS+

@YummyHappyPills There never has been any 'Long Term' value to PS+. The 'value' is for however long you opt to keep the Subscription going - its a 'service' charge - like paying your Internet charge, Sky bill etc. As soon as your 'contract' or Subscription is finished, you no longer have access to that service. The games are a 'perk' of the subscription but the only 'long lasting' perk is the very small discounts you get in the store. I say very small because you still get 'discounts' regardless of PS+ but a little bit more off to subscribers. Those 'savings' are permanent - you don't have to pay the difference back at the end of your subscription and access to those games is not dependent on PS+ subscription - access to online aspects though will require PS+ and the games have no 'value' - you can't sell/trade them, may lose them too in certain circumstances.

PS+ has changed now its on PS4 in that the charge is for 'online' gaming access as well. The games are not 'free gifts' but 'perks' to sweeten the deal and, the longer you subscribe, the more you are made to feel like you are losing more if you decide not to pay their 'blackmail' charge to play games you already bought and internet access you already paid for too.

All that BS about being 'given' games worth 'X' amount is a joke. If you bought them, and can often find some of them 'cheaper' than their quote, you get them forever. At least until you either Sell (physical) or Delete and don't re-install before they turn the server off or delete from their store. I bet a 'conditional' licence is a lot less than a 'full permanent' licence. The games are NEVER yours - they are conditionally available to play BUT ONLY if you are connected to the internet and have a valid PS+ Subscription. It lets you borrow the games but unlike a 'Book Library', the games don't need to be returned after a set time period but you can ONLY play if you meet their conditions.

In truth, you NEVER own 'games' at all - not unless you create your own. The game code belongs to the company that either created or publish it (depending on the Studio and Contract). What you actually buy is a 'Licence' to play a game. Digital Licences are held on your account and 'personal' to you. Licences on 'Disc' are general meaning anyone who has that disc can play that game. When you trade a game in, you are not trading the 'game' but your licence to play it. This is why you need the Disc to play games because that holds the Licence. That's why you need to sign into your account to play 'Digital' games. What PS+ gives you is a 'conditional licence'. The game code is useless without a Licence and Licences can be revoked if you break terms and conditions or find yourself on the wrong side of the Law.

PS+, like Gold is a 'service' charge and its 'value' is only for the duration you remain subscribed - that entitles you to play the games they 'give' you, access to all 'online' game content and a small saving in the store. The same applies to Netflix, the value is only for the term of your subscription and once that subscription is up, then you have no Netflix.

@BAMozzy Yes I know all the stuff about licenses. I do read the ToS and legal stuff actuay (Im boring...)

My main question was about the em...charge, since I see people going mad over the "free" games they are paying for hundreds of times over.

Personally I dont know if the games will ever be unlocked when the service goes down. All I was wondering is if I need some popcorn when it happens to watch the PS+ faithful lose their damn minds!!!

@YummyHappyPills "people going mad over the "free" games they are paying for hundreds of times over."

I don't see how people can be paying for these games 'hundreds' of times over. The annual charge is equivalent to a new game and a little bit more. A single month usually offers more games than they could buy in that month - especially if the also own a PS3 and Vita. By the time their annual subscription is up, the 'cost' to buy those games outright - even just the PS4 titles - could be more than paying for PS+ for the life time that the service has been up and running so far.

Even those who bought PS+ on Day 1 of the PS4's launch 4yrs ago and if they only had a PS4, would have spent around £160 on PS+ for those 4yrs (not including a £50 charge for year 5 as the Price has risen) - That's around the price of 10/11 'Indie' games or the price of 4 AAA games - nowhere near the 'cost' it would have been to buy those games. For those that may have been a bit more selective over which games they wanted, chances are that over the course of a year, they get more than their PS+ subscription charge.

Its no different from paying Sky a fortune and downloading movies from 'on-demand' - movies that you can watch indefinitely whilst you remain subscribed to SkyCinema but as soon as you cancel Sky or SkyCinema, ALL the movies you had downloaded, saved on your HDD, become unwatchable - until you resubscribe. Sky costs a LOT more a month than buying 9 or 10 blurays - if you also subscribe to sports but you never own those movies that are 'free' to download under the terms of your subscription - same as you never own the games/license you get via PS+.

It could be immaterial if Sony do go down the BC route, if those games will work on the PS5 and any subsequent console - those games, assuming they are still available, could appear in a 'ready to download' section like they do on XB1.

If you look online at your 'library', any game that you downloaded via PS+ has an expiry date - the date your PS+ ends. It can be extended by adding another 'month, year' to your PS+ subscription but they still have an expiry date - unlike the games you bought outright.

@BAMozzy Thats assuming everyone bought year long subscriptions. I was on 3 months for instance, which is £80 a year.

The question is when eventually you pay very little per payment for your games EVENTUALLY, how many times have you paid for the FIRST game?

It doesnt matter that its like Sky, the things you watch on Sky are over 900 channels with new content almost hourly, for what £40 a month or so?

On PS+ you get a few games monthly, some you will never touch, and with each payment you pay up to continue accessing the SAME content.

@YummyHappyPills Add up the number of games that you 'could' have downloaded - whether you did or not and even if you pay the most expensive way of PS+, you still get more value in the games offered than it costs to buy PS+. You may have spent £80 a year but most month's offer more than £80's worth of games. Just because you don't like every game or have every console that games are offered for, you still get more in games (RRP cost) than it will ever cost you to buy. It may not be 'cost effective' if you don't download at least 2 or 3 games a year but PS+ offers at least 72 games a year and 24 of those are PS4 games. You couldn't buy those 24 (let alone PS3 and Vita games) for £80. You are not constantly paying just for the first game and ignoring EVERY other game that came after.

Sky costs a LOT more than £40 a month - if you go for the Full package that includes Movies and Sport. The principal is 'similar' though as I could buy the DVD/Bluray of ALL the films I download/watch and have those for as long as I want - trade/sell them to recuperate some of my costs - like you can with gaming OR download those movies and watch for as long as I keep up my Sky Subscription. If I don't keep up my Sky subscription - a fairly sizeable chunk of the channels - inc some of the 'on-demand' channels are still accessible - it becomes basically 'FreeSat'. Of the hundreds of channels available, some are not included in the Sky charge. There are a few which require their own 'subscription' - channels like BTSport, LFC TV, MUTV for example. Some are just Radio channels too. You only have access to a very limited amount of content if you don't pay - arguably like losing access to online gaming and only getting a 'basic' PS4 experience.

On PS+ you get offered a new set of games EVERY month. Its also a LOT cheaper than Sky is. If you don't choose to download those games, don't play them even if you do download them, that is your fault. If I don't choose to watch Sky channels that I am paying to access, that isn't Sky's fault. If you don't opt to play games online, don't take advantage of the extra discounts that being a PS+ subscriber, you can't blame Sony or the PS+ charge. If that '1' game was 'so important to you but ALL the other benefits of being a PS+ subscriber are not, then it would make more sense to buy just that game. Depending on the game, you may need PS+ anyway to get the most out of it - play it online. Point is, you don't buy PS+ for one game - not if you have any intelligence - you buy it for 'EVERYTHING' PS+ offers and the potential to easily get MORE games than you could buy for the cost. If you have no interest in online gaming, no interest in 98% of the games offered, no interest in any savings in the PS Store, then it makes NO sense buying and just buying any games you do want outright.

The free games are essentially a 'bonus' - some months may not be much of a 'bonus' to you personally but they are still offering games - as well as discounts in store and the ability to play your games online. Over the course of a year though, Sony (and MS with GwG) offer a LOT more in terms of the cost of the games if you were to buy them, than PS+ (or Gold) costs - even if you were to buy just a month at a time and pay a LOT more than the annual cost.

Again, like Sky, if you don't watch any of the channels or even that much TV the cost of the Subscription isn't as great a value than for someone who watches 6-8hrs a day.

@BAMozzy Thanks for insulting my intelligence then as a guy who got some games via PS+ and later on couldnt justofy the continued pricing when it was raised and I moved away from online experiences.

As @Octane will tell you, the free games arent a bonus. Thats what the charge is paying for. Where are thebonline servers beyond matchmaking? Its P2P. Sure you get some extra discounts.

But what about, I dunno, all the profit PS+ makes. That amount of profit indicates we arent paying to cover costs, lord no, far far more than that per person.

Now if our PS+ subscription covered the costs for actual server based stuff like PSNow I could see it but oh, wait...thats its own subscription.

As Octane will tell you, paying for PS+ is actually only paying for games. Everything else it gives you isnt actually something youre putting towards, rather its a simple paywall. The games arent the "bonus", they justify the price being far far higher than what it actually needs to be.

Anyway back on topic before Tasuki kills us all

@YummyHappyPills The cost may well be mostly towards those games but the majority buy PS+ because its necessary to play their games online. As proven on the PS3, PS+ was hardly popular - even though it offered newer and 'bigger' games. Therefore for many, the free games are a 'bonus' because they would still buy PS+ to access all the content in their games - as was proven on Xbox before they added Games with Gold. Even on PS3 though, your subscription was still like 'Netflix' or 'Blockbuster' - paying for the opportunity to download that month's new content but unlike other 'rental' services, you didn't have to return those games at the end of the month.

Even if you do buy PS+ for the games, you are still offered a LOT of games that would cost you a LOT more money than PS+ costs - even if you pay for PS+ monthly. Last year, Sony offered over $1000 in games - if you were to buy them and you pay less than 10% to play those games. I don't know how much it costs a month but if it cost £6 a month, that £6 would allow you to download an play those games for the whole month. That is what you are getting. Next month's £6 charge is for those month's games AND the continued access to the 'previous' month games - if you opt not to buy 'next' month, not only do you not get that month of games - but you lose access to any previous months - however you can regain access by re-subscribing and that would entitle you access to the 'new' offerings. You are only paying a 'small' fee for the new games with the added bonus that any previous games remain playable (are not swapped out). If you haven't finished the previous month games, you have a choice to pay for next month's offerings and keep playing older IGC games or go without any access to any IGC game and just play the games you actually purchase.

You can't download or record any 'new' movies during one month when you have an active Sky Cinema account and then watch all those the next month when your Subscription ends - even 'Recorded' films - not just 'on-demand' downloads. You can however keep watching ANY movies you purchased via Sky Store. This is just like PS+ - the monthly charge is for that month's content but doesn't stop you from playing any previous content you may have had access to during your subscription. If you let you subscription lapse, you do not get the 'new' content but also lose access to any 'old' content you may have opted to download/record whilst under contract/subscribed. If, at any time you resubscribe, you are paying for the 'new' content but also get access to any 'old' content you may have.

You are not paying £6 that month for 'access' to a game/movie etc you may have got a year ago but for that month's new content with the added bonus that your old content is still available. That £3.33 - £6 a month is for that month's games - not for last month or games you got 2yrs ago - you paid your money for that month's games that just so happen to remain playable beyond that because you kept up your subscription. You can pay £6, get those games and play them all month and finish them. A year later, like that month's games, pay another £6 to play those that month and replay the games you downloaded a year ago. You are not paying £80 a year for the game(s) you got in month 1 but 12 months (24-72) worth of free games and access for that year. That £80 would be broken down into 12 equal parts and each part pays for that month's conditional licences to play that month's offerings

@BAMozzy Anyway back on topic before Tasuki kills us all

@YummyHappyPills Ok - it is partly on topic because it refers to the preservation of 'individual' libraries and the different type of 'licences' that can be affected long term for individuals. The games we buy are, to a degree, preserved with the hardware. If that 'hardware' breaks down after its 'discontinued', it can become increasingly difficult to find a working replacement. Also with certain aspects of games dependent on other factors, like online, they have limited life. A game like Goldeneye remains preserved as long as that cartridge works and you have a working N64. Its MP remains functional too. Killzone 2 though isn't entirely dependent on just the hardware and disc working - but also online access. You can 'preserve' its MP via LAN though (I Believe). IGC version though is more limited because it has a conditional rather than a permanent license - meaning that even its 'SP' won't necessarily be playable if you have a working console.

MS do seem to be doing more to preserve gamers libraries at the moment - and before Tasuki brings up Halo on the OG Xbox, MS's approach hasn't always been this way so maybe Sony could follow suit eventually. Sony are preserving games though in their own way. PSNow for example has many games from their history and they seem content to bring 'updated' versions to their current console. OK so its not preserving individual libraries as you have to pay to play these again but the games are 'preserved' and not just in the memory.

We are yet to see what happens to 'conditional license' games on either platform as both companies haven't been offering games with these for long. The PS3 will be the first to tackle this issue as the GwG offerings on 360 were given with a 'permanent' license. When MS turn off online support to the 360, the games will remain playable - at least any offline aspects will. Online could still be available via BC on XB1 but you can't redownload (if deleted) or play online on 360 when that happens. When Sony do turn off online support to the PS3, only offline content will be available but that's the case with some games - like Killzone 2/3 regardless. These aren't preserved in their entirety...