
We promise we’re not trying to rub it in, but Concord is such a historic flop that some of these stories simply can’t be overlooked. Speaking on the latest episode of Sacred Symbols, veteran ex-IGN reporter Colin Moriarty said he’d spoken to a developer on the first-person shooter, and claims the game cost approximately $400 million, making it the most expensive PlayStation first-party project ever. That’s an astounding, bordering on unbelievable, number if accurate.
Moriarty claims that Firewalk Studios had spent around $200 million at the start of last year, prior to Sony’s acquisition of the developer. The title was originally being funded by Probably Monsters, with PlayStation signing on as a publishing partner. It’s unclear, then, how much of that original $200 million had come out of the platform holder’s pocket.
However, when it acquired the studio and took full control over the project, it allegedly spent a further $200 million getting the title ready to release. According to Moriarty, the game was in a disastrous state as recently as 18 months ago, with no player onboarding or monetisation designed. Outsourcing was required to get the project into shape, and to be fair, what did release was relatively polished – albeit extremely barebones.
Moriarty explained: “It’s the biggest game Sony’s ever released from a budgetary standpoint from a first-party. There are games in development at PlayStation first-party that are more expensive from a budgetary standpoint, but as of the games that have come out so far, like Marvel’s Spider-Man 2, this game cost more. And they lost all of it.”
He then goes on to explain why PlayStation spent so much on the game: “It was heavily championed behind-the-scenes. The term had been used verbatim behind-the-scenes that ‘Concord is the future of PlayStation’. This game was referred to internally as a Star Wars-like project for Sony. It was designed to be repeatedly revisited, not just in games but in cross-media; we’ve seen little bits of that like the weekly stories and the inclusion in Amazon’s Secret Levels.”
According to Moriarty, a sense of “toxic positivity” pervaded the project. “You weren’t allowed to say anything internally about this game, about how something’s wrong with it or how the character designs aren’t right,” he claims. “This was Hermen Hulst’s baby, apparently. He internally was a massive champion of the game.”
He concluded that he’s “totally solid” on his source, with Kotaku’s Ethan Gach corroborating some of the story. Moriarty goes on to admit even he was surprised by some of the numbers being thrown around here. “I was saying it cost nine figures probably, like low $100 million. But I thought there’s no way it cost $200 million. Actually, it cost $400 million – and that doesn’t even include the price of acquiring the team!”
Assuming all of this is accurate, then it’ll be interesting to see what this means for PlayStation moving forwards. We suspect Hulst will be under unfathomable pressure, as he’s the one leading the PS Studios charge and has allegedly cost his company hundreds of millions of dollars here. While he’s been promoted to co-CEO alongside hardware boss Hideaki Nishino, Concord falls under his remit – and we suspect he’s going to have a lot of explaining to do to his higher-ups.
[source x.com]
Comments 245
I mean, assuming all this is true, this is just staggering information.
That’s cap no way that game cost 400 million dollars
@Malaise Yeah, I want to know what this means for Hermen Hulst. Because if this was his baby, as reported, and he was selling higher-ups on this game being the future of PlayStation, only for this outcome... Like, geez! He must be in so much hot water I can't even begin to imagine.
I honestly don't believe it cost anywhere near 400 million
If true, this is truly shocking and disheartening to read. I imagine all of the smaller and more genre-varied games we could have gotten this gen being thrown in the trash in favor of this and it puts my long-time support of PlayStation into an existential crisis. Dramatic, I know. But....damn......
Hulst parading Concord around as "the future of PlayStation" and a "Star Wars level IP" is pure insanity.
@get2sammyb makes you miss Shu.
Sometimes we make bad Gambles, sometimes that bad gamble is an obvious bad gamble.
I mean, the studio employs 150 people, so unless they pay them all 500K a year then I'm not sure what they spent the money on 😂
Also Sony didn't even buy them until last year so where did this independent studio get all the money from in the first place?
The acquisition was undisclosed, so if it cost $300 million and then the game cost $100 million to develop, then you could say it cost Sony $400 million but I highly doubt the game itself cost that
Yeah sorry but I don't believe this. These stories are just getting more outlandish. 400 million for that? Come on.
This just proves there is a MASSIVE disconnect between the people running the ship and the consumers.
Seems like people who are completely out of touch with gamers are currently calling the shots and it shows.
@RBMango you mean those games like concrete and dreams that really didn't take off with support like Sony hoped...
@get2sammyb @Americansamurai1 Agreed. Shu, Andrew House, and Shawn Laydon did not have perfect records, but they were way more competent at assessing quality than the clowns now running the show at PlayStation.
I prefer solid facts over "I heard it from" statements from some bloke on a podcast or X post.
I for one don't believe this game cost near the same as TLOU Part 2 and Horizon Forbidden West combined ($220 million each).
To quote Like a Dragon director Horii Ryosuke: "If there's no healthy fighting during development, you can only make a lukewarm game at best".
@Cutmastavictory Concrete Genie and Dreams were before PS5 and Sony sent those out to die.
If true, just more proof that Hermen Hulst should have gotten the boot alongside Jim Ryan.
Such an abject failure of vision and management. How was this allowed to carry on so long with no one recognizing the catastrophe brewing. Between this and Bungie it’s pretty clear Sony has lost its way. I hope they are able to turn the ship around.
Well, we are starting to see why Jim Ryan left the building. The hole Bungie situation. Now this. 12 live service projects, reduced to 6, no showcase this year. We are feeling this ***** and it' ain't over yet I'm afraid...
@carlos82 Probably Monsters were funding them before Sony acquired the studio. Moriarty also says outsourcing was required to finish the game, which could have rocketed the cost.
But yes, it's still an extraordinarily high number being thrown around.
400 million and doesn't even include the price of the studio? I always assume 100 million was low. 8 years (albeit not in full production) with a giant staff in an expensive place to live/work. But that's astounding
I am a huge Concord critic but this is not true lmao
400 million dollars WITHOUT the price of acquiring Firewalk included in that figure?
Yeah that’s absolute baloney, I’d say it’s probably what every other insider said, 200m.
@UltimateOtaku91 While I understand your scepticism, it'd be unethical for him to name his source.
Let's see what else is reported.
There's no f'ing way. I'd need to see proof of this from verified sources. Impossible that level of slop cost $400 mil to make and even more impossible to believe that anybody with a functioning brain cell would've seen it and said 'this is the future of video games.' No way.
They weren’t completely wrong. Concord was Sony’s “Disney Star Wars” and let’s leave it at that.
Did anyone see much advertising for this game? Because I don't remember seeing much, and there's no way you send out a $400 million game without getting it seen everywhere first, surely?
Yeah this sounds like a load of bull.
Sony didn't even get involved until 2021 so unless Probably Monsters and its investors spent $200 million on it before Sony got involved then I think I think it's a load of crap.
$200 million for those 3 years Sony was involved would be more believable.
Totally agree toxic positivity is becoming a huge problem. Any criticism is now seen by some as "hate". This means improvements badly needed are quashed right out of the gate and then when the market gets its hands on the product it's a disaster. This isn't just a problem in video games but in culture as a whole. Glad others are speaking out about it
It certainly did shape "The Future of Playstation" just not in the way they had hoped
@get2sammyb That's the thing, would Sony ever report how much h they spent on this game? And if not then anyone can go round throwing absurd figures without anyway to prove them wrong. Also if it is true then wouldn't this be the most expensive game made to date outside of GTA?
If the numbers are as high as claimed, we should see a major hit to profitability of the gaming division in Q3 results when they are out in November.
Wait? SIE conned by Bungie... Twice?! 😪😪😪
As soon as I read "the studio's Bungie roots" everything seemed to make sense for a moment. Whatever the real cost... it's how they *con*vinced Sony to give up all that money that is the real problem.
Marketing costs, hours of motion captured story bits, outsourcing…all very expensive. IF this report is true, I don’t see Hulst having an extended future in his current position, and that’s without knowing how much Factions cost Sony either.
Frankly, part of me hopes this is true. This level of failure will be hard to ignore, even for out-of-touch corporate suits. I don't champion people losing their jobs, but at the point we are now the only option might be to burn everything to the ground and start anew.
@8bit4Life Not true as even Disney Star Wars era made some money at first lmao
Sorry to say but if Hulst really thought Concord was the future of PlayStation he should not be the future of PlayStation
@get2sammyb
It might be unethical but these are ridiculous numbers and it seems like Moriarty, who runs what has been my favorite gaming podcast, seems to have pulled this straight out of his backside just to create discussion. He has to have solid proof of that outlandish number and report it immediately. If not, his credibility is 100% out of the window. He's been saying some dumb stuff in general lately.
I think this explains why the Sony CFO came in as the President of PlayStation and said in an earnings call that the developers needed to learn how to make money (I’m paraphrasing) and shut a bunch of things down.
As for the neigh sayers, if you read the entire thing or watched the clip in the tweet from Colin, you’d understand why this game was so expensive and why they shut it down so quick
There’s surely no way it’s that high. Surely…?
@get2sammyb Definitely. If there's truth to this then whatever happens to Firewalk, Hulst really needs to share the same fate - if they're laid off then his metaphorical head needs to roll with them, and if they're reshuffled to support other teams, he needs to be bumped back down to a creative/support role too. If there's one thing that seems to have been made very clear about Hulst in all of this, it's that he's not cut out for that level of executive, financially-responsible role, and likely never was.
I wonder if it’s actually 400million during its (intended) lifetime.
Much like they expect Gta6 to be 2billion across its lifetime.
@Gamer83 I mean he's saying his source worked on the game and he seems confident in it. The Kotaku reporter has also corroborated the "toxic positivity" bit (not the budget).
Perhaps he's mistaken and the $400 million includes the purchase of the developer, too. But he explicitly states in the video that's not the case.
If true, this is obscene for so many reasons because it shows how out of touch Sony has become with its customers. How on earth they championed this as the future of playstation I do not know.
I don't see how Hermen Hulst can come back from this. That is a massive error of judgement.
Sony has always been successful in its merger and aquisition strategy because it targeted companies it had worked closely with for years, and were aligned to the company ethos - take Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Sucker Punch, Housemarque etc.
The purchase of firewalk, and to an extent Bungie made no sense because those aquisitions represented a complete departure from their usual approach. It's no wonder that this ended up a disaster for all involved.
A dark period in Playstation history this.
I could have my Uncharted 5 with millions left over for that.
Saved Sony millions and they would have made money in Uncharted 5.
They are dumb nuts
Talk about pure f**king hubris and mismanagement. 😂
PS HQ should've stayed in Japan.
@get2sammyb Holy sh*t! If I were Sony I would fire Hermen Hulst. If I were Sony I would create more teams like Asobi as Nintendo also has small teams and have hit after hit. These bloated game studios are not viable it seems
EDIT: as a CPA (now consultant in M&A) this would be the most easily identified impairment ever 🤭
If this is true, then not only is leadership to blame, but so are the developers. It is unfathomable the level of waste that was going on at every level of Firewalk. 8 years and $400 Million with a broken product as of 18 months ago shows that. Obviously no one deserves any hate, but it should be learned from. Sony and Hermen need to do better.
But will Hermen Hulst renounce his yearly bonus?
@get2sammyb
He can say what he wants and mention all the unnamed sources he wants but looking at that game it certainly doesn't seem like a $400 mil project. Advertising does factor in and I'd be more inclined to believe this if it was marketed like God of War but even that didn't happen.
Maybe I'm wrong but this seems like attention seeking. Possible he thinks his podcast is slipping into irrelevancy as it doesn't pull the numbers that others do.
Surely, they are including the price of acquiring the studio in that, but maybe not. The game has been in development for eight years, which is why it presumably seemed like the game was designed for eight years ago.
That's even more than I thought it would be. I was thinking in the 200-300 million range. But if this is true, this game would probably be the biggest entertainment industry flop of all time.
@The_Wailing_Doom No, this is without acquisition costs according to Colin.
I'm sure the game is fine...it's just there are so many of these games ..and most of them are free aswell...so trying to charge for it in the first place wasn't a great idea
Hulst needs to step down. This is insane. 400M for that turd of a game, yet any ask for a return of a beloved character gets pushed to the side. The ps5 pro price and all this other news makes me worried about Sony.
@get2sammyb perhaps, in any case it's been a monumental catastrophe for Playstation
That is an appalling waste of money
@Sanquine
I trust Colin, but that figure seems unbelievable.
This is a major win for gamers. These big corporations need to be shown that they are only as successful as we allow them to he. Serve us slop and we'll happily get the shovel.
source or I don't believe it
“You weren’t allowed to say anything internally about this game, about how something’s wrong with it or how the character designs aren’t right,” he claims. “This was Hermen Hulst’s baby, apparently. He internally was a massive champion of the game.”
I'm not surprise when the character designer called people who dislike Concord as talentless freak.
But it's confirmed that Concord is really Hermen Hulst baby. No wonder he boast the game as if it is a masterpiece.
And if the $400 million cost is true then that's more money than TloU 2 or Spiderman 2 devs cost and what Sony got is a game with lesser quality that no one buys.
Heck, $400 million can funded multiple Astro Bot, Wild Arms, Gravity Rush, Patapon, Arc the Lad, Alundra, Dark Cloud, or any dormant IP's from Sony catalogue!
I think big chance Hermen gonna lost his job or he definitely lost a lot of trust from Sony shareholders and higher ups.
I'm not even surprised if Sony shareholders already voted to kicked Hermen out of SIE CEO chair started with new fiscal year.
@zimbogamer
I'd be more concerned for Sony if they sold the PS5 Pro at a loss.
A London based studio could be really expensive. The same project located in Poland or Czech republic could cost the half amount of money.
This is terrifying information. You can't expect a publisher operating on PlayStation's scale to ensure that every single first- and second-party project will be a financial and critical hit. That's simply unrealistic. But PlayStation came pretty damn close to it during the PS4 era. Major economic and critical failures were rare.
But ever since Jim Ryan's misguided gaas initiative PlayStation has been getting close to Xbox-level mismanagement.
Last of Us Multiplayer - cancelled
London Studio - project cancelled and studio shut-down
Twisted Metal - cancelled
Bungie - 3.6 billion to buy a severely mismanaged studio
Concord - 400 million down the drain, studio closure likely
I sincerely hope they learned from this. Fingers crossed.
Hulst needs to go he's absolutely destroying this brand his tenure has been an immeasurable disaster get rid of him and good god MAKE PLAYSTATION JAPANESE AGAIN!!!!
I can tell you where those $200M came from, but don't want to be banned again for truth. 🙂
Concord is slap to Sony's face from customers. If they don't LISTEN now, than we don't know what to do. Maybe stop supporting Sony at all... maybe we'll really see another fall of gaming industry.
@zebric21 unfortunately...
@carlos82 Hasn't this game been in development since 2016 though? Eight years of wages changes that calculation a lot.
Utter nonsense. The studio was only about 150 people, that’s small for AAA standards.
All the discourse around this game is utter garbage, just like it took 8 years to develop when the studio was only founded in 2018. It was probably only 3-4 years of full development and would take years to even get the staff count up to 150.
@UltimateOtaku91 This guy has been in the business a really long time so I think calling him some bloke is probably off base. I reckon this takes into account them buying the studio as well.
@UltimateOtaku91 Colin is about as trustworthy a gaming journalist as there could be. He says his source is solid. So its not just "heard it from some bloke". Your statement looks foolish.
@ChrisDeku 5 years is still a long time to be working on this.
Always had a bad about Hermen, ever since he revealed Horizon with its semi-ugly protagonist.
FYRE festival of gaming.
Chernobyl was less of a disaster than Concord
“You weren’t allowed to say anything internally about this game, about how something’s wrong with it or how the character designs aren’t right,”
This really explains so much 🙄😂
They definitely knew and
was aware of this mess🤮
Are we sacking anyone over this.
This is insane.
That's so much money to pump into a game, and the lack of any criticism within the dev team is just a setup for disaster.
@FatalBubbles Colin said on the show this does NOT include cost of buying studio.
@ChrisDeku Working on a AAA budget live service in Washington state for five or more years would be comically expensive.
That sounds like sensational nonsense sorry. Because it is/was a big story some troll has put it out there that's it's Sonys most expensive game ever .
Let's look at some quick facts, firewalk has a headcount of 179 people at it's peak, insomniac 450, santa Monica 250, ND 450, polyphony 300 etc etc
Also sony did not own or pay for development of this game until several years after development.
There's more but I can't be bothered cause it's likely sensationalism and it's more likely including the cost to BUY THE STUDIO
It's insane to say the least. How in God's name this took over $400 million to make is simply unconscionable. I believe Collin though. He doesn't just throw stuff out there.
I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall during the meeting when Herman was just head over heels for this game. Just what the heck did he see in it?
@FatalBubbles Honestly never heard of him before especially as I don't really follow podcasts or X posts etc. Just find it hard to believe this game cost in the same region as Sony's two most expensive games combined, which both also had bigger marketing as well.
It’s unbelievable that Sony is heading towards disaster. I wish for a second gaming crash at this point, as only Nintendo is still doing what they always knew (constant stream of good games). Microsoft and Sony fatcats are too greedy and busy snorting whatever fairy dust they have in their lavish offices, while destroying gaming.
I’d say that I don’t even think of buying another PlayStation in the future, as I thought that getting a PS5 early on in its life would mean benefiting from the next-gen games. However after 3 years I feel heavily burnt out. I bought more games for Switch or retro consoles (PS1 & PS2) than for PS5, because the output is not very appealing to me
Windows vista failed but with many updated and different name succeeded, I believe this game need to change the characters design and different name and free to play and give it a new try.
@LifeGirl well the studio itself is 6 years old, but even if we assume all 150 staff have been there for 8 years working on this and an average wage of 50K a year, that comes to 60 million. Still leaving us 340 million to account for
To think we could've gotten Twisted Metal and Factions 2 over this. Not to mention funding if studios like London and Pixelopus weren't shut down.
For comparison GTA 5 cost $265 million to develop and market. That includes music licensing, Mo cap, tonne of voice actors, the online mode and that was for 5 years of development.
I liked Hulst during the PS3 era when they were pushing boundaries of the hardware with KZ2 and 3
But it seems like after HZD, they just went all in for some reason on that franchise which didn't make sense to me. And now the guy is leading all PS studios. Strange series of promotions for that guy.
This didnt fail just because of character design etc - it could have fantastic and still failed - it failed because nobody wanted a live service game from Sony.
> $200 million for those 3 years Sony was involved would be more believable.
@MrMagic but that’s exactly what the article says. Like verbatim: “when it acquired the studio and took full control over the project, it allegedly spent a further $200 million getting the title ready to release.”
@Rich33 So why didn't HellDivers 2 fail?
Enough to remake Bloodborne and make a sequel. Sony is imploding at this point.
Hooolyyy fuuudge. They bet the bank on a game that didn't survive 2 weeks. No wonder they're nickel and doming everyone, they lost their shirts on the worst gamble ever. This makes Redfall look good.
What's even more troubling is hearing they have games that cost more than this in the works. $300M on Spiderman was too much. $400M on this was beyond belief. They should not be spending more than that, and should be spending less than that on video game production. What is WRONG with them spending that kind of money on volatile products that can sink or swim? Do they not have any kind of grounding on what acceptable risk is for these investments? Do they believe themself above failure? That is not at all how Sony used to make games and hit the top. That's how Activision made games, and all that got them was bought out.
More and more I feel like Sony Pictures took over SIE at some point and they're running their games division like their film studio. Only even more expensively.
I'm not sure why people are skeptical the game would have cost and been managed this way though. These guys are Bungie spinoffs. This is the exact SAME hot water Bungie is in.
I said in the beginning Hulst needed to go with Ryan, and I'm now starting to wonder if Hulst needed to go BEFORE Ryan rather than just take up his seat.
🤔... yet Sony barely paid for marketing. If you are internally excited for years that "Sony's future project is in development", maybe share that hype with the only people that matter in business...the consumer. They obviously decided to blow their load on a potential Fortnite killer "😂" and failed. Stick to your base, stick to what you do best, stick to selling multiple millions of single player based software experiences. It's why so many of us are here.
Some mistakes are expensive. Hopefully they learned a life long lesson.
Toxic positivity.
Same thing that surrounds Vladimir Putin by the sounds of it.
$400 million!??!! That moment of realisation that led to the curtains coming down so soon after release must have been a real sickener for Hulst. I wonder who gave such a massive directive and where the red line was that made it be called?
Not surprising tbh after sony buying bungie to help either live service games: in my opinion the worst live service game, destiny where it's the exact same activities for the last almost ten years , would have been better with square enix, finsl fantasy 14 while flawed has really turned its fortunes around. I really hope sony learns from this
I bet Marathon and Fairgame$ also cost a lot. Not surprise if both games combine could cost the same as Concord or even more.
Hermen possibly are sh*tting brick right now lol. Concord became a catastrophic failure with $400 million turn to dust and there's a chance Marathon and Fairgam$ could follow Concord fate.
But i forgot Helldivers 2 sold really well (12 million copies iirc). Maybe the only thing along with Horizon FW that keep Hermen's safe for now...
@OldGamer999 If it's true then someone is definitely getting sacked, that's a lot of money to waste and then there's the money spent on years of development on TLOU Factions. I think after Fairgames and the Horizon Multiplayer game Sony will abandon the Live Service push and focus on single player games (apart from Bungie)
I think a better strategy would be to get third party developers making online games and then acquiring them if it becomes a hit, like Arrowhead for example. They should give someone the Killzone, Resistance or Motorstorm IP to make a live service game.
Hulst must have been so high anytime he did any work related to Concord.
I guess they trying to get the money back by selling ps5 pros for steep price
SIE, believes live services was the future of their platform, bro...they need stop drinking alcohol there in japan
Welp should've bought Square Enix instead of Firewalk Sony lmao
Didn't someone also said that Jim's GaaS initiative wasn't his but Hulst's? If true then this guy needs to go.
@KillerBoy
Also don’t forget the PS5 Pro anniversary bundle that you can’t buy as the console in its own.
And have to have the edge controller and not a common sense disc drive bundled instead.
They are really pushing their luck with me Sony and I’m such an arse just like I left Xbox last month, Sony are starting to make their way onto my hit list.
“ was designed to be repeatedly revisited, not just in games but in cross-media”
Well, that would explain why it was so “inoffensive” (crap). If true anyway.
@UltimateOtaku91
Sony are pushing their luck with me lately.
The arse I am like I left Xbox last month Sony are working their way slowly to the top of my hit list now.
Hulst has a serious problem since he takes thing personally. If he personaly likes it, it's good. If he doesn't, then it's dead. He didn't like Days Gone so it was dead. Doesn't matter it sold over 8 millions copies, he just didn't like it. He needs to be fired since he lacks professionalism.
No way this is true, this is just people sticking the knife in.
There’s no way they could have ever spent that amount of money on this game.
"The future of Playstation" is so damn accurate because the company for gamers is getting worse and worse.
There might not be a future for Sony in gaming and if they continue this trend then so be it... 5 Generations is enough.
@FinneasGH i would assume it includes IP and Team Acquisition cost from probably monsters. Needless to say tho, huge waste of time and money as many 2nd party games could have been made with that
@FinneasGH I can believe that higher ups are spending outlandish amounts of money on garbage IPs, wouldn't be the first time. Also they will mention inflation, per usual.
@UltimateOtaku91
Truth be told, i dont know - maybe it was the type of game ie PvP instead of PvE (tho why that should make a difference), or maybe that Helldivers 2 was a sequel to a previous game so didnt embody Jim Ryans / Sonys Live service push (or HD2 was merely announced before the Live Service push became a thing).
I just know that a lot of people saw concord as the game to 'make an example of' to send Sony a message on its Live service push, and lack of single player games. That focus now seems to have shifted to Fairgame$ (i think thats the correct spelling).
Damn!
I just cant believe this game cost that much, it really doesnt show.
Come to think of it, they probably already created a lot of the weekly cgi scenes. Which probably had a fair bit amount of motion capture in it.
Still think it could've done better if they just said from the start what type of game it was, not shroud it in mystery and make it seem like it had some kind of singleplayer narrative or cool co op multiplayer.
Sony should really stop it with the silence and playing cool and just come out with a banging showcase.
@SrpskaArtilerija You do realise that Nintendo are suing an indie dev team because of the concept of "throwing a ball and catching a monster", come on now don't pretend Nintendo are perfect here
@bestuardo If you listen to that Colin guy he claims Sony put $200 million in it in the first quarter of 2023 so he's basically saying it cost them $200 million for about a years worth of development.
He's talking out his ass.
I have to agree with the doubters, I'd need something a bit more concrete before I could believe that figure is true.
@Rich33 I think maybe HellDivers already being an IP people loved helped it gain a positive reception. Plus as you say there's a big market for PVE especially if it's dumb fun like HD2 is, Destiny is also primarily PVE and has done very will over the many years it's been out, another example would be the Monster Hunter games which also rely heavily on PVE.
So yeah going forward I think Sony should concentrate more on PVE live service games instead of PvP, so basically it's not looking good for Fairgame$.
@OldGamer999 yeah im going stick to my base ps5 and wait an see what Nintendo will be cooking with the switch 2
Either way so embarrassing and funny to me! Whom ever thought this would be the future was just pandering and was given wrong market data.
What Hermen Hulst envisioned is I imagine very common among game developers and company executives. However such success is hoped for and not guaranteed. Making a smaller less costly game that would hopefully create interest for more is less risky then spending a fortune to hopefully create the next future phenomenal online money making cash cow.
@OldGamer999 If Switch 2 could run the latest games then I'd say go fully Nintendo, vote with your wallet as they say. For me personally il stick with Playstation and Nintendo going forward, even get to play Xbox games with that duo lol. But hopefully once the PlayStation heavy hitters start releasing you will change your stance.
Hulst's baby eh? That's one ugly baby
"A sense the game would come together because the team was too good to fail."
Why does this same thing always seem to come up when we're dealing with legacy studios or studios spin-off from legacy studios
There must be a curse on Bungie and any studio related to them... cause every studio spun off from them have done nothing but struggle. Firewalk, 343, Certain Affinity... etc are all struggling.
I'm taking the whole $400 million budget with a grain of salt but I can definitely believe Hermen's attitude. Who would have thought that not listening to feedback could become the straw that broke the camel's back. I genuinely wonder if Concord is even gonna come back. I mean, it IS Hermen's baby, and they're going through on airing a Secret Level episode.
Cost of buying studio + development costs post-acquisition + advertising + making animated features + disc manufacturing.
Then you take into account having to pull all those unsold manufactured discs as well as refunds.
I mean, when it was found that Spider-Man Remastered cost...what...$150 million (or was that The Last of Us Part 1?), it probably shouldn't surprise anyone at this point what a whole new game costs Sony to develop.
Even still, Sony...uhm...ponies up a lot of money for its games. It's no secret why Sony keeps upping prices on things, is moving closer and closer to Day 1 PC releases and the Pro is costing so much without a stand and disc drive.
I know it's really cool to see all the impressive things Sony does for advertising its titles (like painting whole subway cars), but I think Sony is starting to see that it's really hurting ROI.
@get2sammyb Also, to be fair, I can only think of one time in like... 15 years... when his source was wrong. I believe that was the Bloodbourne remake.
I thought Hulst would have his finger on the pulse given his background, but if this turns out to be true then it's absolute insanity and shows he has no clue what he's at.
Even if you want to be charitable and maybe he got confused and it was actually $400 mil adding the cost of the studio it's still absolutely beyond the pale. If Hulst has the ability to feel shame he would resign immediately! he should go back to Guerrilla where he and the studio are better together.
@UltimateOtaku91
I will stick with Sony and Switch then probably Switch 2.
Of course they are all a business but the way they did PS5 Pro anniversary bundle was pure hard business on gamers.
@KillerBoy
That’s my stance right now.
Of course I’m really looking forward to some Switch 2 next year and those Nintendo big first party games.
Hopefully we will get one from Sony next year 🤣.
Joking a side they should have two for next year at least.
Well this doesn’t look good they just be focusing on single player experiences and go back to the old school multiplayers I loved the game socom 2 it was so simple yet truly enjoyable and the community was brilliant on it , 400 million dollars Jesus the live service games are not fairing well the moment
400m for a clone of a 10 year old game with worse characters and nothing original. PlayStation brand is in real trouble if they keep the decision makers in place.
@Gamer83 they have the 13k+ Patreon most of which are at the $5 or higher tier and it’s the largest PlayStation podcast. I doubt that’s the motivation.
I cam totally see why Sony hardware and accessory prices are so high and not subsidised now, they have been hemorrhaging money and cannot not afford it anymore
The numbers can't be right.
Can they? I expect a lot of sensational claims about this game now, but 400 million???
If it's true, it kind of puts that whole Fairgames is being received very positively internally thing in perspective.
I was very eager to see what Sony could do with GaaS, but if this story is true (again, if) they need to get over the GaaS chase and just be happy with Destiny and Helldivers.
Surely that online Horizon game will be fun...
Even if it’s only half that figure, the purchases of Firewalk and Bungie have been absolute disasters for Sony, who are getting their just desserts for abandoning their policy of only acquiring studios they have strong working relationships with.
Modern PlayStation is desperately lacking from strong leadership. The brand hasn’t been the same in my eyes since Andrew House and Shawn Layden left and bean counter Jim Ryan took over. I don’t know if Shuhei Yoshida was pushed or volunteered to look after indie initiatives, but his experience is being wasted there. Hulst never gave me the impression that he was comfortable in his role as Head of PlayStation Studios and seems increasingly out of his depth as CEO. I am not confident about PlayStation’s future under his tenure.
A lot of people are quoting pre covid game development costs as a reason this can't be true, but the cost of everything has absolutely soared these last few years so a $400 million costing on an 8 year development isn't an outlandish claim at all and it's all explained in his video, and especially when mismanaged by the studio and by Sony who have made some seriously bad (future of the console threatening) decisions the last several years.....stop burying your heads in a fanboy haze of denial like Sony did with this game calling it the future of Playstation
Look everyone. I think we can all rally together today and just point at SEGA and thank them for Like a Dragon: Pirate Yakuza in Hawaii. Now that will be a game. None of this GaaS nonsense
I wonder if this has anything to do with Sony’s inability to get first party titles out this gen instead of relying on remasters for the bulk of their output.
@Oram77 I know about Nintendo’s numerous legal shenanigans, yes. But of all three, they at least have the best output as game devs & publishers.
Besides, I don’t give a rat’s butt about Pokemon, never liked it.
Nice one, Herman.
Let’s just all be honest with ourselves. The golden age of gaming is over!
If true, I don't know how the hell Herman Hulst still has a job.
@RBMango point being, you guys didn't support them.
Hermen Hulst is PlayStation's Phil Spencer. He's done nothing to earn the co-CEO position and has (and continues to) inflict damage to the PlayStation brand; the GaaS pivot, going multiplatform, PS+ price hikes, greenlighting completely unnecessary remasters/remakes instead of new and exciting projects that showcase why anyone would want a PS5.
At least Jim Ryan earned his place as CEO from his long tenure making PlayStation the dominant brand in Europe.
How the heck this game cost 400M? It’s not an open world games like gow ragnarok or blockbuster movie-like games like uncharted 4.
Honestly, the game looked like 20-30M tops. Very generic...
If there is a Game Crash coming, pricey PS5 Pro is even more useless.
Anyone with brains could easily recognize this fake rumor.
Let's say if Concord did not flop. Selling 5 million copies would generate $200 million revenue, which is only half of this fake development cost, and which is still a disaster. How could you believe this is true. No one will ever make a game that could not cover the development cost even if it sells 10 million copies.
@Boxmonkey I am of the opinion that there is a second video game crash coming. It won't look like the first one, but it will take a couple of Triple A publishers with it.
The writing has been on the wall for at least a year now.
Yikes!! I was already glad it flopped immensly; but now i'm just straightup super, SUPER relieved it failed. Screw live service, screw account bound games and SCREW multiplayer games!
If ANYONE believes these are the future... well.. we all have our illusions I guess.
Really hope Sony doesn't try something this stupid again.
Imagine Kojima with those 400 million...
I simply don't believe this trash cost that much.
@Maubari Marathon: /chuckels/ I'm in danger...
If they really thought this was the future of PlayStation…what the hell were they smoking?!
The fact this team includes many ex-bungie staff isn’t surprising either. Seems like they all have an arrogant “we can’t be touched” attitude, probably as a result of halos success and they seem deluded.
Bungies a mess, firewalk seem to be a mess and hulst needs to take a good look at them and himself before more disasters happen.
Crazy the money sony spent on bungie and now it seems this game.
As others have said, PS needs the likes of shu, Andrew house and co back who actually know what they’re doing. I have no confidence with hulst in charge after all these missteps.
How the hell did they think Concord was the future of PlayStation?!?!? There were literally superior, extremely similar games available for FREE. Did nobody in the board room bother to figure out that 1+1=2? It's disgusting they spent that much chasing a trend basically. Man, I used to really love gaming but lately I don't know anymore...
The hubris is real.
@LifeGirl that’s not a bad thing imo. We need a complete reset of this industry
@UltimateOtaku91
Agree with Sony sticking to PvE, but i believe they also need to think about:
1. Quality over quantity - its what Sony does best normally and Concord wasnt helped by its averageness, but LS game push and quantity of studios taken up by it is what caused a lot of the issues imo.
Maybe keep LS to a couple of specialised studios, with experienced hands, more geared towards making quality ones. Are there any old IPs they could use that wouldnt cause an outrage?
2. Leading on from that, make sure any future LS game is released in a period when at least 2 single player games are releasing. This period could be 9 months or so but they need at least trailers and firm release dates before the LS games launch - that way the LS games arent seen as a threat.
Just my thoughts.
OK, NOT the future of PlayStation, then. If only they had asked…oh, anyone, for example.
Not sure I believe that. It was a high production value game no doubt, but $400 million makes no sense at all, they don’t even spend that on Spider-man a KNOWN and bankable IP. I think Colin has it wrong.
Bought both Bungie and this Studio - so far it seems they really have 'improved' Sony and their reputation.
Obviously there are a LOT of costs involved - not just the staff wages for the time they worked on this, but ll the voice work, studio costs (electricity, water, rates etc) marketing - and merch (Maybe a cancelled toy line now or even cartoon series LOL). The PS5 Pro Concord Special Edition and/or Controllers etc etc...
Who knows whatever they spent, inc marketing that they likely pulled at great cost, the TV adverts you'll not see but cost a lot to make. If they thought this was the Future for Playstation, you never know how 'big' they may of gone on Marketing and TV costs across the world on top of the 'cost' of developers time - their Wages for the years. Often the Actual devs that make the game are the lowest paid in the chain - unless you count the cleaners of the studio that add to the Studio costs to keep it open and running every week...
Hard hit for Sony but I'm glad this happened in such a big and impossible-to-ignore way. They've got to do better.
@OldGamer999 "I will stick with Sony and Switch then probably Switch 2."
At best Switch 2 will be as powerful as the base PS4 so you will definitely need either PS6 or PC to play all the latest AAA games like RE10, Cyberpunk 2, etc.
@UltimateOtaku91 Helldivers 2 didn’t fail because it is a consistent product with a soul, and it is a tiny bit edgy.
Concord meanwhile is a streamlined copycat, which never received a soul, because of the „toxic positivity“ and because several studios worked on it in parallel, with limited coordination, so that the single pieces don’t form a coherent whole.
People love Sony games for being the perfect blend of very high production value, artistic expression, and sheer fun. And what of this deliveres Concord?
Well, if you gotta go for a loss, go big enough to make a statement.
@themightyant Being skeptical is fine. But 400m is definitely possible!
If you outsource a big chunk, with the basis still being a mess after several years, and the boss says that in 18 months it has to be the best product Sony has ever made, then these outsourcing studios could demand EVERY price, and they most certainly did.
These external studio owners are rich people now!
Nah, Sony gotta be smarter than this smh
I wonder what went through their minds when they bought the studio
Not a fan of Hermen Hulst's leadership.
I wonder how many Bloodborne Remakes/Remasters $400 million equates to 🤔
@Tecinthebrain
Yep that’s what I’m gonna do.
But also probably go Pro as well.
Herman needs to be removed, the guy was boasting about this game as if it was going to be something massive, everyone could see this was going to astronomically flop but nope, no one at Sony could see this, that alone is worrying for PS going forward.
I really hope PS goes back under Japan.
Such a massive waste of money. Not looking good for the future of PlayStation if Hulst stays in charge and keeps pushing games like this. Anyone think that Marathon will fair any better?
Never liked Hulst, never liked guerilla studio and Horizon games they are mediocre, If this man saw this game and thought it was the future of PlayStation then we have a big problem
Anyone who’s listened to Colin as long as I have will know he takes great pride in his journalism accuracy. He wouldn’t say something like this without some confidence. He hates being wrong, but he does own it when he is , like with his incorrect leak about the Bloodborne sequel. He keeps a tally of how many times he’s been wrong on major industry news and definitely would not risk eating crow about anything.
Still… an absolutely disgusting budget for what the game ended up being. I does make me wonder if they somehow try to repurpose any of the assets or other parts of the game to recoup all the investment and human power that went into making it. And I’m still not convinced that they won’t re-release it maybe in some alternate form maybe as a F2P or something.
@IamJT
He's staking a lot on this, then. That number just comes off as unbelievable for what the game was.
@themightyant
Most of Spidey price isn't even development cost but rather licensing.
herman hulst needs to be kicked out of playstation immediately
This is one of the most astonishing pieces of PlayStation news I've ever heard.
I'd be shocked if this was true. $400 M is an unfathomable amount...
@Th3solution I can't wait for Concord Kart Racing.
@Max_the_German Sorry, the maths just don’t make ANY sense. The studio was 179 staff at peak, around a third of the size of Insomniac’s 500. The 8 year development has been firmly debunked as Firewalk wasn’t even created until 2018. The first year or more would have been setting up the studio and pre-production with a MUCH smaller team. At MOST it was a 5 years of full development. Yes there were many support staff (1,972 credited staff according to Moby games, including everything from lawyers to Sony staff) but again that is HALF of what Spider-man 2 took to make (3,578 credited staff). We know SM2 cost circa $300 million and launched a year before so $400 million for Concord makes absolutely no sense at all.
@ChrisDeku @carlos82 sad to see how few people seem able to do a basic bit of fact checking, so many believing everything they read/hear online. $400 million doesn’t pass the most basic sniff test. Bogus story.
Today I learned that Hermen Hulst is not a founder of Guerrilla Games nor is he a creative or game developer of any kind. He entered the games industry by working as a consultant who went on to replace the founding managing director of Guerrilla.
I remember when he became co-CEO people were happy that finally a game developer who understood what gamers want was now leading PlayStation like how Satoru Iwata ran Nintendo, but it turns out he's not actually a game developer. I think many presumed he was because he was always the one being interviewed and presenting when Guerrilla were showing off their games.
This may possibly explain why he's been scouting these awful acquisitions like Firewalk and Haven, because he's simply going by his business instincts, not game quality.
As everyone loved to put every bad decision on Jim Ryan, and they thought of Hermen as PlayStation's Phil Spencer (which he's not). Hermen took over the reigns as the head of ALL PlayStation studios (and their x- and trans-media work) from Nov 2019 (about 10 months after Jim Ryan became president).
Now Probably Monsters (a publishing house/developer studio) formerly started in late 2019 (though had existed since 2016)... from ex-Bungie workers; and Firewalk Studios came out of that, being created in October 2019. The same time that Hulst became the head of Playstation Studios. The whole selling point of ProbablyMonsters was that it was an inclusive (pandemic-borne) studio that wanted to promote non-toxic gaming. A "modern" message that clearly resonated with Hermen, because in the beginning of 2021 Sony signed an exclusivity deal with Firewalk for what would become Concord, 1.5 years after Firewalk started, and about 3.5 years before the game was released. By mid-late 2022; ProbablyMonsters had raised about 250m investment across 3 studios (Sony obviously was part of that, and likely a BIG part of it). Sony then purchased Firewalk (from ProbablyMonsters) in early 2023; within a couple of months, ProbablyMonsters had closed it's other founding studio Cauldron, cancelling their game. It hasn't released a single game, and both founding studios were sold/closed.
In my opinion - Hulst was flimflammed into buying a dream (of non-toxicity and inclusivity in multiplayer gaming enabled by a focus on work-from-home development). He invested heavily in the ProbablyMonsters hype, and it turned out both Firewalk and Cauldron were failing (expensively) to make their games. I suspect, Sony purchased Firewalk was because their 2 year investment was about to fold, and they wanted to get something back from it... and on top of that, Hermen was now knee-deep in Hollywood with transmedia and that hype-train. That's how Concord was born... and while I can't believe that 400M was spent by Sony on the actual development, I can believe it was a crap-tonne.
So that's nearly 5 years ago since Hermen took the top job at PlayStation Studios; and I think it's fair to say that we are only now starting to really see the influence Hermen has had (that wasn't projects already in the mix). Not only do we have the purchase of Firewalk, the acquiring of an untested Haven, the overly expensive Bungie acquisition, closing Japan Studios, the cancelling of Factions, the shift to pushing remasters.... and it's likely only a single 1st party game (AstroBot) to come entirely out of his tenure as head of PlayStation Studios. Though kudos should be given for Astro at least.
Something is not right at modern PlayStation... and the rot starts at the top. I think we'll eventually hear just how deep the rot went, and how hard Sony either ignored the problems, or were being fooled too. Remember... Sony paid USD 229M for all of Insomniac Games at the start of 2019... done under Yoshida. How far things have fallen. This could be the end of Sony - not because of one game, but because the people involved won't change, and had no idea (and likely still don't).
@J-Dubs Then this is very hard to believe.
Wasn’t there meant to be a series of animated lore videos that released periodically? That’s likely what contributed to such an enormous production budget. Either way, what a disaster. Out of touch doesn’t even begin to describe PS5 era Sony IMHO. That’s what not having a competitor does to a company.
@truerbluer people keep thinking that he was a game developer... he was a managing director at Geurilla Games... he's a money man; who apparently sucks at managing money.
@themightyant I tend to agree, that a lot of numbers are being thrown about... however. once you do start looking at the history of Concord in particular, it starts showing up some troubling signs for how PlayStation under Hulst was performing. Covid notwithstanding, I think there's increasing evidence that Sony has taken it's eye of it financial due-dilligence, but what's worse, also losing their understanding what makes good games.
I think also, what we don't know is how many times Firewalk had to re-invent Concord along the way... I suspect that Sony contributed upwards of 160-180M in ProbablyMonsters 2022 investment announcement of 250M (as they were the only major publisher that had been investing at that point). I think after they acquired them, they just continued to sink money in hoping a working game would appear. Which... clearly it didn't.
@get2sammyb where is this money going and can I get some 😅
I'd read a book about the goings-on behind the scenes at Sony if there was one... this is fascinating stuff!
I'm more interested in knowing what's going to happen next with the studio. Like are they working on a new game? I'd also like to know what sony has to say about the game.
It will definitely affect the future of Playstation. At least, it should. I'd say "go back to doing more bizarre games," but who would do those? Team Asobi can't do much more than make levels and easter eggs that reference the studios Sony has shuttered. I love Astro Bot to bits, but sometimes it is a bit of a grave dance.
My jaw just hit the floor.
As if I needed another reason to believe that Sony moving their HQ to 'The People's Republic of California' was a stupid idea.
Whilst Jim Ryan ultimately signed the cheques on the likes of this & purchases like Bungie,(the latter no doubt in regards to Microsoft buying ABK, Zenimax etc),really does bring a focus on "prmoted upwards",Hermen Hulst's tenure as SIE Studios head & no co-CEO.
In the rare interviews given,he'd be gushing about their going big or go home approach to AAA Live service games,or buying Firewalk,PC or Mobile devs,but away from his TV/Movie spin off projects,(admitted,successful for those who liked those sort of things),TLOU/Uncharted babies & HZD remasters etc.,we never really hear him talk about PS Gaming history in the way a Shu Yoshida,or Shawn Layden etc.,could.
Implicit Conversions clearly has a fraction of the resources (& isn't even first party),porting mostly PSP,& occasional PS1/PS2 titles & nowhere near the amount of third party content there should be.
Opportunities to test some of the PS3 titles like Motorstorm series,Resistance,Little Big Planet etc with mtx add ons,much less ports of Sly Raccoon, classic Ratchet,Ico,Twisted Metal to test doing full borne remakes have gone missing. Nevermind the games cancelled in the past year or two & studios closed whilst noone made the hard call here.
God of War infamously had to pivot it's development after a Shu Yoshida visit & they acknowledge it made the game better. Away from his Guerilla Games bubble can Hulst do the same ?
Man I’m so glad this game genre is not the future of PlayStation.
Anybody who closely read what happened to Factions because of Bungie's extreme influence on Sony and the later treatment of Naughty Dog's employees won't be surprised by this.
They cancelled the main mp game from their star studio because bungie didn't think 'it was going to stick around long term'. Despite many,many devs loudly proclaiming that it was the single most fun game they've ever played. Anybody who's played the combat of TLOU 2 can tell how phenomenal it is and how more incredible it can be with more work and an mp focus.
After the cancellation, there were reports of 'heads rolling' and on twitter, many ex-devs complained that they were treated piss poor by Sony's management and kicked out abrubtly. You think Naughty Dog almost made an MP game, suddenly realized it was a long term support commitment, cancelled and start kicking out/ letting their devs gets humiliated? No it was all Sony's doing because they considered Bungie the experts.
Concord, for those who don't know, is made by Bungie ex devs. The Company that funded this game, hello monsters, was led by a Bungie dude. The live service pivot was all bungie, supported by Herman, until a few months ago.
I'm SO GLAD this happened. That game had the single highest potential but I don't know if it'll ever be brought back. Unless Hulst somehow convinces that he has something to do with helldivers 2 success (he doesn't), he's getting fired soon.
And just to be clear, Helldivers 2 is based on existing playstation gameplay. Spiderman MP, Factions,Twisted Metal were all MP live service that would have been huge hits. All these Bungie generic games are going to go nowhere and hopefully, Sony course corrects now that the obvious results are here and more are incoming. After fairgames and marathon flop and Hulst gets fired and this all ends with a sad whimper.
@reek what is truly scary is that Sony made Hulst co-CEO - after they'd already gone 400M+studio buyout (130M) in the red without selling a single copy. Having just watched Colin's video, I am now convinced Hulst is actually an existential threat to Sony; and unfortunately he's also most probably entirely protected from being fired. And - unfortunately he's surrounding himself with people promoting ideas/concepts that have proven track records of failure; and he can't tell good ideas from just blowing smoke up his own ass.
Honestly, if true this is just heartbreaking as a PlayStation fan to see how low Sony has fallen.
Even without that in mind its still sad to see Sony having waste so much time and money on this project.
@CutchuSlow the studio is a dead-man-walking. There's absolutely nothing they can do to survive this now that this is out. Nothing... and not even as a support studio.
Sony Believed It Was the 'Future of PlayStation', and Bethesda on XBox, incredible, what a vision of future!!! Sony has set an ET but thanks to digital they won't have to bury anything.
Now I know why there are no exclusives lately, cos they spend money on ***** like this, Sony has become a total disaster in recent years.
Now I understand the price increase on their DualSenses with drift.
Next chapter...
PS5 Pro, releasing a console at that price it seems like a desperate attempt to save the situation or just another one of their crazy ideas.
@Oz_Who_Dat_Dare
Yup and unlike Jim, who used to communicate and say stupid things and was an easy target, Hulst prefers total silence. The average person has no idea as to what he's involved in, his ideas or what he wants. Nothing at all. Which I fear, will make management find it harder to kick him out.
Now we know what Sony has to rerelease old games to cover the cost of this stink piece.
@reek the thing is - he IS deeply part of management now... he's been the head of PlayStation Studios since 2019 (and apparently was deeply involved in the management much earlier). Since he became coCEO (this year), there's no chance that he's getting kicked out....
The problem is (from public perception) is that they believe that Hermen is a game devleoper... whereas he's an external business manager that was hired as the managing director for Geurilla Games... and is only interested in making number go up (which apparently he is not very good at doing). Talk about failing upwards.
I already didn't care about any of these live service games. When I play a game I don't want to feel like I'm some hapless mark bring duped out of their money (like some poor sod putting £40 into a fruit machine on pay day).
I hope Fairgame$ and Marathon get cancelled or scaled back, and I'm glad that the live services as the future is looking bleak.
Considering their rich heritage, I'm surprised to see Sony falling for this.
When it cost over $200million for Spiderman Miles Morales (a small dlc on an already developed map) I have no idea why people don't think Concord could cost $400million.
Even without the licensing fee the budget is over $100million for a game that was what, 75% recycled content?
400million is not only possible, but extremely likely.
Concord is the biggest failure in gaming history and nothing else comes anywhere near it.
I thinks it's possible they went all in and spent a considerable amount making the cut scenes in order to be ahead of the curve. After the disastrous launch Sony probably brought in some people not connected to the project to find out what was really going on and fire some truth bullets their way. When Sony realised they'd been led down the garden path with monumental balls of wool over their eyes, they decided to cut their losses as a tax write off.
I want to know what discussions are going on behind the scenes so much. It's fascinating.
If this is all true then Hermen Hulst is deeply and frighteningly incompetent. In some ways, I still feel like this has to come under the jurisdiction of Jim Ryan. As the company's too CEO, he should have known better than to greenlight this.
The most expensive game in PlayStation history!? Based on what merits!? Why do you need 200 people if you outsource work!?
Somebody needs to bring down the axe on this lollapalooza of paychecks - Money for nothing, chicks for free-studio. They need to be fired and never, ever rehired. I am so happy I stopped funding this crazy, crazy company. PIVOT and start making games for me again and I will start voting for them with my wallet starting with SM2 and GoW:R.
I think with the pressure of the ABK deal from MS and in fear losing COD revenue they made very wrong decisions where the echo now comes out
I just don't see where the money could have went; there must be some wires crossed and this includes buying the team, marketing, and some other assorted costs.
I trust Colin but that's just hard to fathom; also explains it this was Hulst's baby why we're getting and unnecessary focus on Horizon; he seems to be pushing what he likes over what the audience would like
Removed - inappropriate
@mariomaster96 wisely said 👍
I just found out that Black Myth Wukong budget was $75 million and it looks a lot better than Concord $400 million.
At this rate, i think what Firewalk did was a big scam against Sony. Not just the studio will be closed down but the director and producer needs to be investigate.
Also, i think Hermen Hulst is finished. Concord is his responsibility so there's no way Sony higher ups let the company burn $400 million just to make an internet meme and punching bag.
Gamers don’t understand how much it costs to make a tentpole game. I believe the $400mil budget, especially if we’re seeing the completely unproven game get an entire episode in a show that hasn’t released yet.
Outsourcing costs a lot.
Advertising costs a lot.
PS5 development, costs a lot. Given a lot of the recent news, some might say too much.
I think, @UltimateOtaku91, when you are making your assessment of how much the game cost to make, you are failing to take into consideration the outlay that Sony had to make in order to actually buy the Developers. That immediately bumps up the cost of this game to Sony, regardless of how much they subsequently spent on actually finishing the game off. If it was just a case of the game itself, then yes, I agree 400m does seem particularly steep...
No Jim Ryan and co thought it was future of playstation and he's not gone with a nice pay packet
I still Jack Tretton was it's best leader until he left it's gone down hill slowly
@Fiendish-Beaver That's the thing though, in the podcast Colin says that the 400m doesn't include the price they paid for the developer.
That's true, @UltimateOtaku91. And I agree, 400m is excessive. I think he's got it slightly wrong, and that the 400m is actually for everything; the Developer and the game...
Well... it may be the future. The future that sees that the live service focus was a mistake.
@PuppetMaster I’m not surprised the criticism want allowed. Some of the basic and obvious criticism of the game isn’t even allowed here because it’s considered “unpolite” nowadays. I can only imagine how much wasn’t allowed in Sony itself.
I can’t get over how bad this console generation is
@UltimateOtaku91
Horizon games have benefit of being developed in Netherlands (mainly) where developer pay is way lower than in USA. According to Glassdoor, median salary for Game dev in Netherlands is 55K € per year.
Average salary for game dev in Seattle (where Firewalk is located) is 134k $ per year.
And let's not forget that "balooning part" of game developer budgets happened in last 4-5 years. TLOU 2 was released in 2020 and it was part of that "old price" for development.
Lots of comments to read, just going to give my 2 cents. I really really hope Sony learns from this, whatever that means, and changes. The PS5 Pro might say different but this all happened so close together.
>Colin Moriarty
Lol. I have no doubt he has a source honestly.
But it's probably just another libertarian loser giving his opinion on his boss to another libertarian loser.
Removed - flaming/arguing
Bye bye Herman baby.
Removed - flaming/arguing
@brn70121 I hope not otherwise its not Hulst feeling the pain he will get out with a golden parachute. The other workers won't be this lucky.
@Jaz007 Turns out, the toxic positivity is the norm in Bungie and ex Bungie carried that same philosophy into Firewalk.
And some Concord devs including the characters artist, already removed Concord from their bio. Like F* these guys, they don't have the balls to admit that they made a catastrophical flop.
I can't imagine developing a big budget game for 8 years with people who called other as talentless freak or smell their own fart and says it smells good. Gosh 🤦♂️
But I have my doubt that other Sony studios has the same toxic positivity like Firewalk and Bungie.
@Oz_Who_Dat_Dare Didn't he come from marketing at Phillips? He and Jim are both ad men. Ad men know only one thing: spending money. How they got to the top I'll never know.
Toxic positivity = Smelling your own farts syndrome.
@NEStalgia Yep from Techland interview with Hermen in 2010.... which at least the marketing started off in gaming (UbiSoft). But he's not really a game 'developer' and I'm not sure he's much of a gamer to be honest.
Yep. An ad man, a bit of a technophile, his Ubisoft experience was an internship in marketing, his real background was just Phillips marketing in TV's and electronics. And then straight to guerilla. No idea how he rose up the ranks but that's on Jim seeing a fellow traveler in hulst. Both of them just know how to sell stuff to people.
Meanwhile at NOA we have Doug Bowser, from P&G, like Reggie, guys that know snack food, toothpaste, and bath soap. Furukawa the banker.
And we wonder what's wrong with gaming when nobody that runs the business understands the business. Phil Spencer knows but can't figure out business and marketing. Spencer/Hulst 2024?
@NEStalgia Furukawa is sort of the anti-Spencer. Phil Spencer seems personable and is a good mascot for the Xbox brand, but can't run a console gaming business worth beans. Meanwhile, Furukawa looks like the most non-descript, middle-management Japanese dude imaginable, but he's done a great job leading Nintendo since 2018.
@Ralizah I think that's because he doesn't actually run the gaming business he just runs the corporate business, that's why they split the job into the Fellowship thing to break Iwatas job into 3. Furukawa IS the nondescript Japanese suit. Miyamoto quietly runs games and IP. Hardware dude is new after Takeda retired so who knows maybe that lame switch 2 is real. But all the magic is still managed by Miyamoto at the executive (not creative) level. From beginning to today, he's always been the secret sauce over there.
Phil's actually great at running the gaming business he's just not good at running... Business business.
@NEStalgia I go back to this - it doesn't matter if it was 400M, 300M or even 200M. Sony had an exclusivity contract with them from 2021 (apparently at that stage they were three blokes and a garage... exaggeration)... then ended up buying the studio which they helped develop... then a year later we got Concord. At all levels, and at all times, it would seem (as an outsider) that every mistake was made.
At the time, and from the inside, I'm sure every decision was justified (if not justifiable). It's not actually the budget - but the reason Colin's rumour hit a nerve (despite being so outlandish) is that nothing in the Firewalk/Concord story makes sense - and there's that niggling worry, that this ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Hermen may be a great guy - but he's not a technical developer, he's not a creative, and he's by his own admission not really a gamer. That's fine... sometimes the best managers are people removed from the fray. However... if you can't smell the whiff of BS... sometimes you'll get sold a turd sandwich.
@get2sammyb i believe it because they made an exclusive controller.
They only do that for big games.
Anyone who thought this game was anything good should be fired at sony.
@NEStalgia Whatever they're doing, it's working. The games are coming heavy and fast and it looks like they're not gonna ruin their momentum with more goofy experimentation next gen.
Good at running the gaming business? His hands-off approach to management led to Microsoft's teams wasting tremendous amounts of time on projects that went nowhere and/or turned out tremendously disappointing. Him pushing for gigantic acquisitions, day one PC ports, and Game Pass has ultimately ruined the brand as they pivot toward being a third-party publisher in order to balance the books a bit.
Xbox would've been better off if Mattrick had never left, lol.
@Oz_Who_Dat_Dare "sometimes you'll get sold a turd sandwich." That already sounds like a better game design than Concord 😂
@Ralizah I still wonder about switch 2. I don't think it'll fail but if that mock-up is really true and it just looks like a refresh model of switch with more power I don't think it'll fly off shelves. The novelty sold switch 1. I think for a lot of the market that's still good enough. The Nintendo market isn't like the Sony market where selling more teraflops is a selling point. And Nintendo already said they don't need a new switch for their own games, its for third parties which I translate to meaning Nintendo's games will be more of the same and not really do much different with the new hardware. Half of Nintendo magic is doing things with weird hardware limitations. I'm sure it'll sell ok, and I'm sure there will be some games I'll want and need it for, but so far I'm not feeling energy from switch 2. Feels like switch 2 is the switch pro that was going to realise 200 years ago.
I agree with the hands off part. Phil messed up there (though no matter how bad he messed up he looks miyamoto level next to Herman and Jim. Even Phil never failed Concord-hard or anywhere close.
But I disagree on some of the rest. Merging Xbox and PC was the ORIGINAL purpose of Xbox. That's why the brand exists. It was never supposed to be a console for the sake if consoles. It was supposed to DISRUPT consoles that were disrupting the windows gaming status quo. 360 was the weird one where they went all in in console as console. It made them the most money but also took them farther from the real goal. In that sense, by merging windows and Xbox gaming, and if the next Xbox is really a PC as is rumored, Phil actually got them back on track to the original goal they strayed from, albeit not at all gracefully.
Game pass ... Yeah I think it was too soon and too much, though IDK how much was Phil and how much was corporate. Originally it was Phil. But pushing it harder than the console happened after series, and seemed to be a misguided play at Mobile. Then vanished when they got King. That has nadella all over it.
Phil made big mistakes. Corporate made even worse mistakes trading the future for the present. I think. I think a lot of things went wrong there. But honestly I think the internal tug of war did the most damage. Phil was an asset because he was direct and open in communication and setting expectations. Once the tug of war began and he'd say things corporate would change in months he lost all trust, the that's when the entire momentum collapsed. I think the biggest mistake was not actually TRYING to pretend console customers mattered to them
@NEStalgia I definitely think Switch 2 sales will be conservative compared to Switch overall, but still strong. Maybe more comparable to PS4 if Nintendo does their job and launches it with exciting software.
I doubt it has escaped them that 2017 went so well that it propelled the Switch to practically unstoppable levels of momentum through its life-cycle. And I believe it has been mentioned that the release of the hardware was delayed to co-incide with a string of new first-party software development.
The concept isn't as new and exciting as it was back then, but launching at a fair price point alongside a new mainline Mario, new Pokemon games, etc. should still give it a fair bit of lift. Especially when nobody buys Xboxes and Sony is starting to see how much they can nickel-and-dime the public.
Whatever the original purpose of Xbox was, their height as a brand was when they went all in on the console thing. Now their console line is practically dead and they've awkwardly become a third-party developer.
Based on what I've read, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and a ton of people working at Microsoft don't understand where the brand is going in the future. That's bad.
I'm not saying Spencer is responsible entirely for their downfall, but I think it's almost inescapably true that he was a bad choice to manage the Xbox brand, and his mismanagement, combined with potential internal conflicts with corpos higher up in the company, has damaged the brand to the point where recovery is hard to even imagine.
Microsoft needs to decide what the future of the brand is and communicate that to everyone very clearly.
I'm 100% convinced the term "toxic" in 2024, is just a word thrown around to blame other people for your own failures. It might just be the most wrongly and overused word this decade. I pretty much ignore everything else after seeing it.
@Ralizah That last statement I entirely agree with. That's everything right there.
As for the Xbox brand being at it height em when they went all in on console, yes, obviously, but I still think that didn't actually do them any good in the larger picture. They didn't want to have a successful console, they wanted that to be a part of their greater ecosystem. It was division under windows after all.
Concord credit is 1 hour long and they add a like / clap button like holy F these people are loving their own farts!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfbu0De0oBU&pp=ygUPY29uY29yZCBjcmVkaXRz
Yeah i think we don't lost anything important if Firewalk got closed down.
Gaming is in a weird/tough spot. You can't push the envelope much further on graphics. Dev times for big AAA games that aren't shooters or sports or etc. can take 4-7 years now.
From the publisher side, I see why live service is appealing: it's cheaper (usually), easier, and gets the product out sooner. Plus microtransactions can bring in that extra $. Concord still had a long dev time though despite it being "just a live service shooter." But this is not what we want.
I'm happy gamers have voted against live service these last 2-3 years because I hope it will mean more quality games in the future. But the double edged sword is studios may not know how to properly do "quality" without spending 5 years between each game. I love indies, I really do, and they've grown on me tremendously the last couple years as appetizers before the next Spider-Man game comes out in 2028 (literally that will probably be the year). You can say "just make a big enough game that feels like AAA without the cost and scale, but still have more longevity than an indie." And that sounds simple, but in execution, probably not.
@get2sammyb Wondering if you going to update this article? Or publish a new one. Several actual journalists like Chris Dring, Tom Warren and Ethan Gach have all come out and said $400m isn't true VS one YouTuber's "trust me bro" source.
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