Atlus' lead battle planner, Kenichi Goto, who was involved in crafting the meticulous, turn-based combat in immaculate titles like Person 4, Persona 5, and Metaphor: ReFantazio, is quite good at balancing disparate elements. Perhaps the greatest balancing act is ensuring that players are challenged without feeling like their time is being wasted, which is something modern RPG fans are "very sensitive" to.
At a GDC panel (thanks, PC Gamer), Goto spoke on the subject, in reference to Metaphor, which is quite a bit harder than the average Atlus fare: "We wanted Metaphor to feel like a modern RPG, which means players should feel like they're on the edge of reaching game over, [but if] they do, it will be easy for them to go back in and give it another try."
According to Goto, Atlus views RPGs as "resource management games", and this makes quite a bit of sense when you consider the ticking time limits the later Persona games and Metaphor impose on dungeon completion, not to mention HP, MP, or consumable items. This, then, is where the skills of an adept battle designer come into play, as especially these days, players are less tolerant of punishing games:
"It's important to keep gamers thinking that they're on the edge of reaching game over to keep that sense of excitement and danger, while also ensuring a feeling of safety that even if they do, time lost will be kept to a minimum. Just because players have been forgiving in the past, I think it goes without saying that they may not be as forgiving in this modern day."
One of the ways Metaphor does this is through its "rewind" feature, which allows players to turn back the clock as many times as they like, starting over entirely if a particular battle isn't going their way. Initially, this might seem like it makes things too easy, but as Goto puts it: "It helps players deal with feelings of unfairness if something unexpected happens, and they sometimes get to have fun 'cheating' the game a little bit. It ended up being a really fun addition to the game without spoiling it."
Has your tolerance for time wasting waned as you've grown older? Are there any particularly egregious examples that come to mind in recent memory? Make every last second count in the comments section below.
[source pcgamer.com]
Comments 35
Anyone playing an RPG is wasting time because all of them consist of at least 50-80% filler content and are way too long.
That's true for most games in general but that genre in particular.
I welcome a rewind feature. If you don’t like it, don’t use it.🤷♂️
I never got upset with a game for letting me change the difficulty during gameplay. …I’ve never used that option but I also never held it against the game knowing it was there.
Options are great, it’s just up to the person to decide if they want to use it.
Much better waste hours watching a streamer or tiktok i guess...
Maybe because I'm old but i dont understand that sentiment of only have fun if you do instant progress that most young people have nowadays.
Journey before destination!
If you are playing a rpg or intending to play a rpg like baldurs gate,skyrim etc you are well aware they are epic games and will eat away your hours. If you buy one of these and spend upwards of 100 hours+ and then feel your time was "wasted" you should point the finger at your own stupidity for engaging in something you already knew was not for you. There are plenty of smaller rpg's or other genres that are much more "sensitive" to your time spent gaming. Jesus is this what the world is becoming where everything has to be respectful of the gen z's of the world. Get a grip and insert chosen pronoun here up and get on with it..
@Northern_munkey Does the rewind feature on Metaphor genuinely bother you this much?
Or was this just a kind of general topic, less about what Goto was saying here. Because he's not saying people want short RPGs - Metaphor is not a short RPG.
I'm not convinced Goto is right though. The souls genre is also the most popular thing around at the moment, so it's not like people are afraid of repeating things.
@ThomasHL I think you can discern the point I was making in general.
@Northern_munkey you were very passionate for someone not actually talking about the article. I think what Goto is saying is interesting because it's about more than just length - it's about battles feeling difficult enough to be interesting but also not repeating whole dungeons like early Personas.
The first bit I'm definitely on board with, but im not sure either way whether repeating battles is the sweet spot, or repeating one level of a dungeon.
@ThomasHL I was commenting on how he feels devs should be respectful of this gens time spent playing games..I wasn't singling out any games specifically..its called an opinion.
Yeah this generation is really appealing to the tik tok people who need to have two videos on at all times or they'll get bored.
Good games design does not waste your time making you farm for no reason. But let’s be real this time sink is designed into a lot of games in the hope that you will use the content store to bypass the ground with real money.
@Northern_munkey if you read the article though, the actual detail of the article is interesting here.
He wasn't saying games shouldn't be long, which is mostly what I took away from your comment.
He was using it more in the sense that the time you spend in the game should be challenging and meaningful. And that's good right? RPGs have always had too much filler. But he's also saying repeating levels isn't meaningful and that's where I'm not so sure. Then again Persona traditionally mixed repeating levels with One Hit Kill attacks from random mooks, which was very *****.
Also Metaphor has one of the most time wasting features of the series: that you can regen SP by grinding in dungeons (very slowly). That's the kind of time wasting I could do without.
If You play games (or read, comment about them or watch gameplay) you waste Your time*.*
If You do not enjoy the moment of wasting Your time, You should ask Yourself why You are doing this ?
And if a game is uninteresting, boring or is of low quality likely people won't enjoy their time with it, which may influence others to not purchase said game. So, better do not create uninteresting boring, low quality games (though I am pretty sure that there are low quality games which are incredibly fun. So, "low quality" is not necessarily a problem, but "boring" certainly is).
@ThomasHL I just picked up on a different view. I didn't dismiss the article or read only what was relevant to me. It wouldn't be great if everybody shared the same view. I get what you are saying and I respect your opinion.
@Northern_munkey Ah sorry! Thank you for the patient reply
I do hate my time being “wasted” in games. I realise others have different opinions, but if I die and have to go through 30 minute of cutscenes and easy gameplay to get back to were I was before, then I just get frustrated.
I have maybe 90mins a day max to play, after work, and don’t want repeat things, just like I wouldn’t want to continually read page 1 of a book after I’ve experienced it, I want to move on to page two and then three etc, and would never voluntarily go back.
@Northern_munkey I think it’s not just the Gen Z’s. Most people in their late 30s, 40s etc don’t have time for a 100+ hour RPG or at most maybe one every year or two. There’s so much repetitive and unnecessary grinding basically elongating a 10-20 hour story into 50-100+ hours.
What i’d love to see is CHOICE. An option to play the 100+ hour RPG if you want but also a way to reduce that considerably without just making the game easy. Time is the factor people struggle with, they don’t just want a cheap feeling experience. But this is hard to do effectively.
I don’t know why RPGs suddenly doubled or tripled in size in the noughties and beyond. Games like Chrono Trigger were 20-40 hour experiences, Final Fantasy VI was 30-50. When I play a 100 hour game, while I might love the game, it’s rare I think that time wasn’t longer than it should have been.
I’m not sure I agree with the broad point of ‘gamers being less tolerant of punishing gameplay’, Souls-like games are incredibly popular.
But personally I appreciate a game that’s more fair, just because as you get older your time for gaming is reduced, and I want to get further than between 2 checkpoints in a free evening
I played and enjoyed a lot of RPG since PS1 era. But lately, this is possibly because i reach 40 + i grew up with arcadey games, after almost 3 decades of playing RPG i feel like i had enough of grinding levels, looking & comparing stats, manage item / equipment / skills, decide which character that i must put in my party, and check list all the side quest. Playing RPG feels more like doing a job than playing a video game.
It's the biggest reason why lately i prefer games like shmup, beat em up, TPS, fighting, or character action games. These game feels a lot more straightforward and i don't feel like i'm wasting my time with them.
Hey Goto, I think your final boss in Metaphor is too much of a cheat it's more possible to beat the hardest boss in a Souls game than this guy.
@Frmknst "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
The only thing older RPGs had that more modern ones don't is the requirement of grinding to get up to the proper level to tackle a section/boss fight. They've dramatically improved in that department which I appreciate.
I love RPGs but that was always my least favorite aspect to them. They've gotten much better at just having side-quests take over that grind instead of just mindlessly getting into fight after fight just to level up.
I understand what he's saying but I don't fully agree. A part of the the excitement in rpg battles is that you can lose at any time. That you're choices in those batlles can have big consequences if you make the wrong one. That's also the learning curve in those games and what makes them challenging. Adding a rewind futures elimantes those consequences of your actions in battles. I don't really think fans see that as wasting time.
The only time a think I wasted time on a 100+ hours rpg is if the ending is bad. Especially if the main character dies for no reason except shock factor, or because it's a trend since Game of Thrones just to do that.
A lot of old school games padded out encounters, creating the grind that still showed the arcade influences on gaming. Games now have gotten better at making progress feel meaningful while still providing sufficient tension and respecting time. Also games have way more competition for headspace so that is more important now than ever. Really that viewpoint is a sign that gaming has matured as a hobby overall. It is nice seeing that philosophy being applied to even old games as remakes and remasters tend to have QOL features the original game didn’t.
In my estimation, there’s a few factors involved with the current trend of gamers wanting to feel that their time is respected. First, I do think people in general, no matter the age, have shorter attention spans than we did in the past.
Second, video gaming has been a hobby that has exploded in the last 20-30 years, and the core audience is older with many competing adult responsibilities
And third, the explosion of the hobby has brought exponentially more new releases to the table, and so where the entire library of available games 20 years ago pales in comparison to the number of new releases in just one year nowadays. So the competition is so much steeper for our game time.
And as a related fourth issue, the current situation with entertainment media is flush with other segments vying for our time and attention like TV, social media, and other distractions which were not present 20-30 years ago.
These are some of the factors involved and I definitely feel it as a gamer with limited time, limited attention, and so many options constantly tempting me to abandon what I’m doing to go to something new. But the truly great games find a way to keep me engaged.
More specifically to the article, I will say that I felt Persona 4 and Persona 5 were too time consuming. Although I ended up enjoying each of them, they went too long and there were times that I did feel them dragging and I had to take long breaks away. I haven’t played Metaphor yet and I don’t think I will anytime soon, for that very reason — I was exhausted of the loop by the time I finished P5.
I'm getting too on for that stuff, with less time also demanding more action RPG in my games now is more likely to be the rocket propelled variety in some AAA action no-brainer
I am appreciative what the Final Fantasy Pixel Remasters did with the fast forward, Auto Battle, and added map. It makes combat substantially faster while not changing progression and wandering through dungeons with endless turn based battles is greatly diminished with the map. Its much nicer and chill experience to what something I may not have played otherwise due to tedious things.
@TheArt not trying to talk down at all - was it your first Atlus game? I didn’t die to the final boss once and I didn’t look anything up, although I did most of the side content. Did you do all the mini bosses in the region?
I’ve beaten several souls games and gotten the plat in Bloodborne and Sekiro. The Sekiro final boss took me like 100 tries 😅
Shout out to those who also felt a lapse in that balance while battling Okumura in P5/R in an otherwise challenging yet smooth experience.
This comment would carry more weight to it if Atlus wasn't pumping out 65+ hour rpgs yearly.
I realise the comment isn't about the length of games per se, but I don't see how you can raise a point about not wanting players to feel they are wasting time while making games that are perhaps too long even within a genre known for having long games (I think the distinction between western and Japanese rpgs is relevant here)
The rewind feature is brilliant. It gives no immediate advantage and it spares the player from going through the hassle of reloading a game after they’ve discovered the enemy’s weaknesses and developed a bit of a strategy. Unsurprisingly smart design within an exceptional game.
I loved the rewind feature; it was a great QOL addition! If you don't like it, don't use it.
As I get older I am very picky what I spend my time and money on. But I also dont mind playing super long games. I no longer care about getting through things efficiently and just want to enjoy the experience. Took me 80 hrs to finish Metaphor, I could have played lots of games in that time frame, but I am glad I spent the time playing that game through.
@ztpayne7 Nah, had no problem with P5, beat it twice. Never had any problem with Metaphor bosses till this final guy's fackin second phase. I also have the Bloodborne plat, could easily get Elden Ring's plat but don't wanna rush it. Sekiro tho... that's a problem, still haven't beaten it, met Sword Saint and my PS4 Saves all got corrupted, I'm on him 2nd time, he's Isshin now.
I love all the quality of life features that show up now in RPG's. I don't miss the days at all when/if you lost a fight, you'd have to pray to God you saved a save-point somewhat near the area you were at.
Yup. That's why I will always wait a until the real game is released a year or two later before I pick up any Atlus RPG.
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