Topic: Team Microtransactions (MTX) PS3 Library Deliberation Thread

@BAMozzy - no, HDD is banjaxed, i don't think it's recoverable. i don't particularly want to try and force it out of its moulded protection cover, as i might destroy it. it's still under warranty, so i can get it replaced (but apparently not repaired).. it also came with seagate data recovery option, but they can only returned the data on windows or mac format, neither of which is any good to me.

@BAMozzy - sorry, i had planned to do the two Army of Two games. i had written them up, just not got around to posting it yesterday - exhausting day at work, and i crashed out on the couch watching the footy. anyway, i'll just post it now, even though you already looked into it. my ratings don't differ that much from yours anyway.

Army of Two & Army of Two: The 40th Day

Impact on gaming today: Hard to say, but probably fairly minimal all things considered, although its attempt to integrate the co-op experience into the design is fairly admirable. There were two sequels, so there is a bit of legacy there, but the first game is by far the best selling of the series. the third game sold only about 20% of the original. it's probably not as well remembered as other co-op experiences, even within the 3rd person shooter genre, like the tom clancy advanced warfighter/ghost recon games. reviews for both games are all over the place, settling somewhere around the 7/10. if i recall, the now defunct psm3 magazine gave the 40th Day a crazily high score. The 40th Day had extended multiplayer, though as with a lot of games of that turn-of-the-decade era, it feels very much tacked on and unnecessary, even if it wasn't quite as bad as some.

Technical achievement: it's a bit mixed, the framerate, particularly on the first one is a bit choppy, and the environments are particularly drab. a lot of it is a superficially standard action game, braindead dialogue, dumb bromance stuff, but it did have drop in/out co-op, and split-screen for local play. the second game is a bit better in this regard, the shanghai setting is a bit more colourful, and performance and visuals are improved. there are some well designed levels in the 40th day, and it added in a basic morality mechanic (though this did have some inconsistencies), whilst toning down the machismo in the two lead characters, though it's still mostly dumb-as-hell dialogue. the AI could be a bit ropey, especially in the first one, and enemies could stand off while if you played with AI partner, or just stand around until you shot first, the second game is a bit better in this regard, in that it required a bit more coordinated effort, and there were a couple of decent co-op maneouvres, like if you switched to sniper rifle, the AI partner would do the same, and wait for you to shoot, or the aggro system that allows you to focus on a single enemy. it's not quite as coordinated as in ghost recon for example though.

Artistic Merit: there's a lot of customisation options both in the weapons and the masks that rios and salem could wear. the 40th day in particular has some varied environments, even though it all takes place in shanghai. it can go from bright neon-light streets to completely destroyed debris, there were some decent smoke and dust effects, and electric sparks. it sort of has a disaster movie as a game feel.

Personal Opinion: The original game is reasonably forgettable imo, and actually wasn't that much fun to play through, at least with an AI partner, and the dialogue is embarrassingly bad, it's hard to listen to. The 40th day is an improvement in almost all aspects, better mission and environment design, more visually appealing, better customisation, and playing through with an AI partner works better due to the enhanced co-op maneouvers. i even got the platinum trophy. for a dumb action cover-shooter to play through with a mate, it's probably worth a blast, so long as expectations are kept in check. it's not going to be top-tier co-op experiences.

Final verdict:
Not important: Army of Two
Existing: Army of Two: The 40th Day

i'm having issues viewing the spreadsheet, it gets stuck loading saying a browser error has occurred. are there any left that are not orange?.

@leucocyte Sorry to hear that. My Son's external HDD also had something similar after it fell off his bed (or something like that) and I keep thinking I will get round to replacing the HDD inside with my Original PS4 Pro HDD - I replaced that with a 2 TB at launch. I know how annoying it is to lose all that data and frustrating to re-install all that data too. I lost a LOT of Photos of my Son growing up when my Desktop PC HDD screwed up. Its one reason why I am now a laptop with SSD drive these days.

Anyway, moving back to the Games, I will have a check - it seems like you and I came to the same conclusion re both the Army of Two games...

EDIT: Unless you have any input on Ar tonelico Qoga: Knell of Ar Ciel Gust Corporation and Ar Nosurge Gust Co. Ltd which are currently in Existing - mainly it seems as they are not worth moving up according to @LieutenantFatman then it looks like every game will be accounted for - at least in Orange status...

Having looked at these two myself, I would think that they are too niche to be just 'existing' on the platform. Considering that these games seemed to be far more popular in Japan, I cannot see them being anything more than pointless outside of the Japanese market. That would be my assessment of these but that could also be my bias and lack of interest in JRPG's affecting that...

@Ralizah
Looking at the first post in this thread, Armored Core: Verdict Day needs to be moved up to important as it's a much better game than ACV.

@BAMozzy - i've never heard of either of those Ar tonelico Qoga titles, and probably have the same bias as you regarding JRPGs, or at least personally i find them impenetrable. looking at the metacritic reviews for Knell of Ar Ciel, they are mostly mixed, with some positive and some negative. however, most of the negative reviews are from established magazines, for example OPM (both UK and US) gave it 4/10, and PlayUK gave it 27/100, which would give me the impression that it's inconsequential in the west at least. and it averages around 6/10, so i'd guess that even in the realm of JRPGs, its a footnote at best. i'd suggest putting moving this down from Existing to the 'Not important' list.

looking at the list on page 1, i'm still of the opinion that Assassin's Creed III and Rogue are not that important. Rogue is pretty much last-gen filler, and AC3 is just incredibly dull and forgettable.

how are we going to decide which list to put something in for games several of us have played and have quite differing opinions?. how about we each rate it on a scale of 5 (very important) to 1 (pointless). we then take the average and round up. so say, we have 4 opinions - 2 important, 1 exists, 1 not important - then 4,4,3,2 is an average of 3.25 and we round up to 4. afterwards then anyone can use one of their vetos (seems like a weird thing to call it) to move a game up to the next level, if desired.

@leucocyte I think that both the Ar JRPGs should be in 'Not Important' and if @LieutenantFatman as they were the first to place those games, agrees, we will put them in that category.

As for the process of disagreeing with someone's placement - as in they are marked as 'Orange' and NOT locked into place, the person, such as yourself, needs to raise a 'disagreement' and explain the reason why you disagree. If the original person agrees, then it will be moved. If there is 'stale mate' as in the two (or more) cannot reach a settlement, it will have to go to a 'Group' vote and with both the original reason for its position (the defendant) as well as the Claimant reason used to help with the vote.

For example, AC3 was originally placed in Most Important because of the open world and how it pushed the series forward. It was then argued that AC4 actually did this and has had a much greater impact, both then and now - spawning a new IP too off of the Pirate theme and Naval combat). Thus relegating the AC3 down a step to 'Important' because it was deemed more important than just existing.

If you want to challenge that - and Rogue - then we can have a vote on it. It seems its you, myself and @ZeD who have mostly placed the AC games - and whilst Rogue may well be a 'filler' on PS3 now and AC3 may not have inspired you from a playing perspective, both have (or will be) on this generation. Whether or not that counts for or against the PS3 games, I don't know but I would say that at least AC3 is deserving of being important - a game that even today would be at least worthy of considering a playthrough for AC and open world fans - its better than just 'existing' in my opinion. I can't place Rogue myself as I have not played it but I believe its in the 'existing' bracket. Be honest, all of these Assassins Creed games have something to offer today - if you don't have a PS4 to play the remasters on.

However, if you want to have a team vote on it, we can. We could also implement your system too - that seems like a reasonable solution...

We do need to have this decided by 8pm (UK) time so if you want to challenge both AC3 (currently in Important) and Rogue (Currently in Existing) please state now and those of us who are online can rate these games using the 1-5 method where 1 is pointless and 5 is most Important.

@BAMozzy
Happy to see the Ar JRPGs moved down to not important as you suggest.

As for AC3, I would rate it as a 3, existing at best.

@BAMozzy The placement isn't just about how fun the games are, though. Several of the Atelier games, for example, are quite solid experiences. They just... didn't move the needle much, so to speak. The same should be done for AC games that were less impressive and/or influential on the generation. The "important" category should be reserved for "important" games.

@ZeD @LieutenantFatman @leucocyte @Rudy_Manchego
Do you guys want to vote on Assassin's Creed 3's placement?
I'll officially vote "yes" on voting to re-rank Assassin's Creed 3. I think its placement is contentious enough to deserve a group vote.

Also, the spreadsheet was pretty out of date, so I re-arranged it. I just want to confirm that the current placements are correct.

VERY IMPORTANT
Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag Ubisoft Montreal

IMPORTANT
Assassin's Creed Ubisoft Montreal
Assassin's Creed III Ubisoft Montreal
Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood Ubisoft Montreal
Assassin's Creed: Revelations Ubisoft Montreal
Armored Core V From Software
Back to the Future: The Game Telltale Games

EXISTING
Armored Core 4 From Software
Armored Core: For Answer From Software
Armored Core: Verdict Day From Software
Army of Two: The 40th Day EA Montreal
Asura's Wrath CyberConnect2
Aquapazza: Aquaplus Dream Match Examu
Assassin's Creed Rogue Ubisoft Sofia

NOT IMPORTANT
Anarchy Reigns PlatinumGames
Ashes Cricket 2009 Transmission Games
Backbreaker NaturalMotion
Army of Two: The Devil's Cartel Visceral Montreal
Atelier Arland Trilogy Gust, NIS America
Atelier Ayesha: The Alchemist of Dusk Gust Corporation
Atelier Escha & Logy: Alchemists of the Dusk Sky Gust Corporation
Atelier Meruru: The Apprentice of Arland Gust Corporation
Atelier Rorona Plus: The Alchemist of Arland Gust
Atelier Shallie: Alchemists of the Dusk Sea Gust Corporation
Atelier Totori: The Adventurer of Arland Gust Corporation
Baja: Edge of Control 2XL Games
Arcana Heart 3: Love Max!!!!! Examu
Apache: Air Assault Gaijin Entertainment
Army of Two EA Montreal
Arcania: The Complete Tale Black Forest Games
Ar Nosurge Gust Co. Ltd.
Ar tonelico Qoga: Knell of Ar Ciel Gust Corporation

POINTLESS
Angry Birds Star Wars Rovio Entertainment
Angry Birds Trilogy Rovio Entertainment
Avatar: The Game Ubisoft Montreal
Arthur and the Revenge of Maltazard Ubisoft
Atelier Rorona: The Alchemist of Arland Gust Corporation
Ape Escape SCE Japan Studio
Arcana Heart 3 Examu
The Awakened Fate Ultimatum Nippon Ichi Software

Aside from contesting AC3's placement, does this look accurate?

@Ralizah I think @LieutenantFatman opinion is that Armoured Core 5 is a lesser game than Verdict Day. So swap them around!

@themcnoisy
Yep, Verdict Day is definitely the much better game, and a swap there is needed, thanks!

@Ralizah I wasn't placing AC3 just on how fun it is to play - I was the one who argued the case to move it down at least 1 group from Most Important to just 'Important'. I do think though that it has 'some' importance - more than just existing on PS3 - some for its design and its significance to the gaming and the AC Brand.

All I have said throughout, is that if someone is inclined that they disagree with the position, to formally state that and give a valid reason why they believe its wrongly placed. Just being in a 'group' with other AC games is NOT a reason. You can have EVERY game from a franchise in a single group IF they ALL fulfil the criteria of that group.

I have said numerous times that if someone wants to challenge a position, to do so and provide the reasoning they have for that game. If the person who originally placed it agrees with that reasoning, then it will be moved, if not the WHOLE group can decide - even if they have NEVER played it because BOTH parties have provided a reason. the rest of the team can decide which evidence, which person's reason is the 'best' and then have a basis on which to vote. Not ONCE have I said that ANY of these games are locked in place, that no-one has the right to challenge or will not be heard. Just saying they don't agree with no reasons why or saying there are too many games in the category are NOT valid reasons.

At the end of the day, I want this to be at least a unanimous decision from the TEAM. If it can be a complete team agreement - even better but I want it to be a majority verdict on EVERY game if it can't be a complete agreement.

If we are voting on AC3, I still think it has some importance to both gaming and the PS3 today. It was built on a new Game Engine, visually great for the era, successful on both a critical and commercial basis and, as @ZeD also stated, brought the franchise forward. Whilst I do agree it wasn't as important as AC4 has proved to be, I do think its better than just existing. Its worthy of a remaster and is releasing soon on PS4, Arguably, that may make it 'less important' from a purely PS3 gaming perspective as you can play this now on PS4.

Anyway, that's MY opinion BUT if the rest of the team do rate/vote this differently, then so be it - I maybe Captain but I am NOT going against the majority or dictating MY opinion. I either vote to keep it where it is OR will rate it at 4 in that method. The average will be rounded up (.5 or more) or down (.49999 or less) to the nearest whole number as per mathematical law.

I have given both my opinion, and vote/score so I have said everything that needed to be said from me on this subject. I am certain the rest of the team - @ZeD @LieutenantFatman @leucocyte @Rudy_Manchego @Ralizah - can have their say and vote/score Assassin's Creed 3 by 7pm (UK time) and so we can actually get this list locked in place.

As for the list in post #91 by @Ralizah, I am happy with ALL positions and content to move AC3 after everyone has voted/rated it.

OK, I swapped the two Armored Core games and put the finalized list in the first post (and alphabatized it within each category; let it not be said that my work is sloppy).

Something may or may not happen RE: Assassin's Creed 3, but otherwise, that list should be good to go.

@Ralizah Thank-you

@BAMozzy No problem.

By the way, I just reset that spreadsheet, since our list is (essentially) finalized. Continue using the same link for the second set of games next week.

i will rate AC3 as a 2 (not important), and rogue as a 3. the fact that a remaster on PS4 is incoming (was rogue re-mastered for PS4? i've lost track, as i've only played black flag and origins on PS4), i don't think should be considered as making a game important, otherwise every we'd have to consider the same for every half-baked game that got remastered.

for me AC3 is nowhere near as important or relevant as the games before it, nor black flag which came after it. sure it's open world, but that's not sufficient enough justification imo as it's an established framework for the series. the settlements are nowhere near as interesting as say florence, rome, or istanbul, and the wilderness between them is pretty barren. the hunting/skinning animal skins/crafting is basically crowbarred in from the far cry series, and its where feature creep from other ubisoft franchises really starts to become obvious. i played this long after it came out (it was free on PS+) and it didn't stack up well for me.. if i was recommending to someone who'd never played any AC before, i'd say they could skip this one entirely.

@leucocyte Both Rogue and 3 have (or will be soon) available to play on PS4 as both have (or will be) remastered for current hardware. Neither require a PS3 anymore to play - which could be a factor to lower their importance as you don't necessarily require a PS3 anymore to play them. That was my main point about them as a 'remaster'. Some may say that is irrelevant to the argument about their importance as other aspects may well make them important. Success in both critical and commercial sectors can also be a reason for their importance or not too. Either way, personal dislike of a game or its story shouldn't factor in but objectivity should. I still believe that AC3 was important for its scale, the refined parkour and more importantly the changes of weather/seasons and how that impacted on the game-play - like running slower in deep snow. I think from a technical perspective as being important. As someone who has played all the AC games - apart from Rogue and Liberation, I would say that AC3 is perhaps one of the 'worst' in the franchise. Its the technical advancement (weather/seasons in an open world game), the scale of the open world compared to what had come before it and it was a graphical advancement too - therefore deserved at least to be considered and as such merited being important.

If I was considering it as a 'game' and as something that is worth owning a PS3 for, I too would perhaps consider it as 'just' existing - I still can't say its not important at all for any reason. The fact that you can (or will be able to on the 29th March) replay this game with enhanced visuals, a brand-new graphics engine relying on physics-based lighting, brand new character models, several tweaked or heavily-modified game mechanics and upto native 4K resolution scaling. The fact that it is coming out on PS4 with more than just a resolution boost does mean that a PS3 is no longer required to play it and potentially not the 'best' version to play. However, I was not considering that apect but more focussed on the technical aspects and advancements in game development that this game brought to consoles.

Again, this is just my opinion and I cannot ignore the what AC3 brought to gaming, the scale and visual quality that makes it an important game, an important 'step' in development of gaming as a whole - not because I thought the story was 'Meh' compared to other AC games, not because I would rate this game purely based on my personal disappointment after the incredible AC2 and Ezio Storyline. I am trying to be as objective as possible - hence I cannot rate this as anything less than important.

If others within this team decide that it perhaps belongs in Existing (or lower) then I will of course go along with that placement but I have to give credit where credit is due.

Happy with the list so far. @Ralizah might be good to create a new tab each week if that isn't a pain in the backside?

With regards to Assasins Creed 3- I'd possibly mark it as not important as many see it as the end of the 'high' of the original series but at the same time, it was the conclusion of a major story arc and HUUUUGE release at the time.

I'd agree with Black Flag's positioning though. My reasoning is that elements of that game were a) a major departure from the series with the naval combat and revistalized that entry and b) the naval combat was so popular that ubisoft have pretty much spun it off into a brand new IP and probably franchise.

I would vote to keep AC:4 as is and move AC 3 down however I do not care enough to veto or anything like that. I meant that in a nice way.

Top job team. Even though I have been essentially useless on this one.