Topic: Game Difficulty discussion

@kyleforrester87 The point I'm making is it makes the game stupidly easy.

I don't have the willpower. Not when it helps bring the game time down from 7-10 hours to 45 minutes tops. I can still say I've finished the game. It's a pity though for sure.

@themcnoisy 🤷‍♂️

@kyleforrester87 OK so let's say Sekiro put in a difficulty slider. You can make yourself invincible.

Who the hell won't use that feature? Especially if it doesn't effect anything other than making you invincible. Trophies aren't locked.

99% of people would. One of the reasons so many people like Froms games is they are uncompromising, and a ton of the 99% who would pick invincibility cant as they have to practice. Then they actually realise they enjoy the challenge.

Celeste is a lot like Trials of what I have played ranging from Easy to Hard - but not so hard you need 500 retries. I have never felt the need to ask Red Lynx to give me invincibility mode. You have to improve. But if it was there damn right I would use it as I don't have the spare time to practice.

So by using assist mode (which initially I avoided as I thought it took some control away) I have ruined the game whilst improving my spare time.

@themcnoisy well, I played Celeste with the same easy option and didn’t use it so I didn’t ruin the game.. as for saving my spare time i don’t see games as a chore, if I’m not enjoying something i’ll move on, but I’m not just trying to get on to the next one as quickly as possible to spite myself.

The developer literally said in the case of Celeste that the assist mode is not how the game is intended to be played. It’s not as if it’s a regular easy/medium/hard slider found in a lot of other games.

@themcnoisy I certainly wouldn't play Sekiro if you could make yourself invincible. It would make the game a bit pointless, negate most of the challenge, make it less satisfying and fun.

And speaking of Sekiro I’m getting hammered by the same boss right now, but I am slowly getting better. 30 minutes of having my ass handed back to me, I’m starting a new go on Fez lol. Wish it had an easy mode to solve the puzzles for me...

(Oh wait it does, it’s called Google)

@JohnnyShoulder Exactly.

@kyleforrester87 I've turned the assists off after level 4. It is totally ridiculous though.

@themcnoisy Yeah but surely that is a bad implementation of difficulty options rather than a reason to not have them at all?

@themcnoisy just think of it as a very easy to access cheat code.

@Rudy_Manchego how would the solo developer reasonably rework a game like Celeste to be more forgiving without throwing the whole thing out of whack though? Maybe another year or two of development time :s

@Kidfried I like what you’re saying there, mostly because it makes me feel better about myself after having left so many games unfinished. And I agree that hopefully gaming does not seem like a chore most of the time.

However, I have found that a game’s ending is often the climax of the experience. It depends of course, but when I list my all time favorite games (or even movies for that matter) nearly all of them had a immensely impactful ending. Of course this applies to story driven games. I’m completely with you on platformers, puzzle games, sports games, fighting games, racing games, online shooters, .... the journey is definitely the point, rather than a destination.

The Last of Us is an oft cited example where it is the narrative and the powerful ending which we all remember and adore, rather than the somewhat derivative gameplay. Still one of my favorites, but I can’t imagine having it anywhere near my top 20 if I didn’t experience the last hour of the game. And it looks like TLoU2 is going to be similar — accordingly to the developers the game is “not necessarily fun” so the moment to moment gameplay may not be much of a draw.

@JohnnyShoulder But most people would use it when they get to a stumbling block if the option was available present company excepted.

The funny thing is Ive actually played Ninja Blade by From last gen which is a Ninja game and it is a very tough game to 1000g on xbox. You can pick between easy, normal and hard.

I've read the reviews. Most reviewers said it was easy.

Because they played on easy. Ninja Blade is not easy on hard AT All!!! In fact it has a lot in common with the soulsborne franchise. The Metacritic for Ninja blade is a complete joke. Played on Normal or Hard (as I was going for the achievements) was extremely fulfilling.

I actually think when Ninja Blade came to market and when the reviews all said it was easy and was used as a negative, From then got rid of the option in every game from that point.

@Rudy_Manchego Matt makes games is the developer of Celeste. He's gone on record via twitter this week about Sekioros difficulty and the fact he would add similar options in. I'm completely dumbfounded.

Dark Souls popularity (alongside super meat boy / ftl / rogue legacy etc) is because it was two fingers to the dumbing down of gaming. Its tough but fair.

I actually think in the future games should be able to recognise when a player is struggling. Constantly getting beat up at a certain point or bottle neck in the game. At that exact point the game could (for example) take something away like an enemy or boss power. Give a hint. Resupply your grenade ammo etc. Better that than have an option for invincibility. Crazy.

@themcnoisy Man, I really like that idea about a game auto-adjusting the difficulty. Many games give you a small clue on the load screen when you die a couple times and it’s typcially useless. Something like “If you’re struggling with a certain enemy, you might consider checking their profile to plan attacks that exploit their weaknesses.” And usually you’ve already been trying that. Sometimes is even patronizing advice like, “Use a Medicine Pack to restore health when it gets low.” Yeah, thanks for the advice Sherlock.
Many games will prompt you at the third death screen in a row to decrease the difficulty. I also find this insulting. Like I didn’t know that.

....🤔 But a game that could automatically tweak the strength of a boss ever so slightly to match your skill at the time, just enough to keep you from rage quitting and then ramp the difficulty back up to normal even. All done so you don’t have to commit to a lower difficulty necessarily. It would be great for those times when you just have a skill or mental block against one boss or one sequence. Actually, I think I read somewhere that some games do this don’t they? Like the last 10% of your health bar goes down slower than the rest so you get that rush of just barely scraping by that fight by the skin of your teeth, but you really should have died 3 hits ago. Where did I read that?

@themcnoisy
A few games do it and I think it's an awful system. The more you struggle, the more they help you. Your not in control at all.

@JJ2 Ideally there should be a way to disable any assistance.

I believe every game should have multiple difficulty settings - all available at the start! That means no beating the game on hard required to unlock 'brutal/insane' or whatever they want to label the toughest difficulty settings.

If a game like Sekiro, Dark Souls etc decide that the games as they are is the 'normal' difficulty despite it being very challenging for a LOT of players, then make that the 'Normal' difficulty setting. Their is NOTHING wrong with having at least 1 if not 2 modes below that. Wolfenstein doesn't hold back on the imagery for players that select the 'easiest' modes and games like Sekiro and Dark Souls could implement something similar.

Another option is to have slightly different endings to the game - ones that challenge' the player to beat the game on Normal now they have had a practice run, make out that it was all a dream, a precursor to now having to do it for real. At least they get some 'value' out of the game instead of giving up and being put off from any future games. Not everyone wants the challenge, wants the frustration.

Regardless, I still think they should try and make their games accessible for everyone. If the games are meant to be difficult and challenging such as these games, then call that the 'normal' difficulty and have a few steps below like 'Easy' and 'total Noob', maybe use some icon similar to 'baby' B.J. Blazkowicz in Wolfenstein. There are ways to make people realise a game wasn't really designed or meant to be played on 'easier' difficulties but it makes them accessible. An easy mode can be just an extended tutorial in essence, getting newcomers used to the game, how the mechanics work, rather than chucking them in at the deep end and see if they sink or swim. If they do sink, that can mean that any 'future' games they make won't appeal at all.

For all those that 'enjoy' the challenge, the game is still just as playable, still just as much fun for them. What difference is it going to make to them if a game has 'easier' modes? I've beaten numerous games on the 'hardest' difficulty and its never bothered me that others have beaten it on any of the lower difficulty options. They all got to enjoy the game at the level they played it, as did I. They all paid for the game too so why shouldn't they get to enjoy the game through to the end - even if they beat it on 'easiest'.

It bugs me that people take 'ownership' of these challenging games, that they are somehow better and that the games were built only for them - which in part they because they are not catering to a wide audience but they are being selfish too. I see nothing wrong with making games extremely difficult and challenging and having 'easier' modes built in to gradually introduce newcomers to the game rather than put them off at the first hurdle. The challenge is still there for anyone that wants it and if games like Dark Souls for example, believe the game should be challenging, then call that 'normal' and have the 'normal' ending and everything below that have a different ending, one challenging the player to beat the game on Normal. The ones who enjoy that challenge can still beat the game at the normal difficulty, with the normal challenge - its not affecting their enjoyment of it.

@Th3solution
Th3solution
Yes, there often is. It's still a bad system in any case.
An important point of the discussion I feel is temptation once you know there's a way and may feel lazy or for whatever reason you may later regret.

@BAMozzy
Theres also nothing wrong for a studio to want gamers to experience the game the way it's intended. They should not get crap for it.

@themcnoisy How do you most people would use it? I think most people that play and enjoy the SoulsBorne games for what they are. The devs vision should not be sacrificed just cos of few people find their games difficult. I mean I am an average player at best but still managed to get through them. The difficulty in those games is well over hyped too.

@Kidfried Just saw your posts. Well said and I couldn't agree more.