Topic: The Marvel Thread

@LN78 hehehe, I've come to realise that we are miles apart when it comes to Marvel movies (and others), but that's perfectly fine Life would be boring if everyone liked the same things

@LN78 Well, your question doesn't leave much room for nuance, but I'll give you my thoughts. I disagree quite strongly with the notion that there is a massive quality disparity between everything that came before "Infinity War" and everything that came after.

I have enjoyed quite a lot of the post Infinity War content, most of it, in fact, and while I do agree that there are more missteps in the latter group than the former, they aren't egregious enough for me to get all riled up about it. So, I guess I don't see it the way you see it or feel quite as strongly about it as you do (or "care", as you put it).

@LN78 I'm sorry, I guess it comes down to the fact that your very strong wording sometimes makes it seem like these movies are an affront to humanity and that people have to be stupid to like them. I think that's why you'll find people defending these movies when you rail against them.

@LN78 Not weird at all. Again, it's down to the wording. Saying that something isn't good is not the same as calling something "complete crap". The latter will provoke a defense in quite a few people.

And, no, I absolutely do not subscribe to the fact that there are objective standards in art. Who's the arbiter of that? Which manual or tome of wisdom does one need to consult in order to objectively deem a painting, a poem, a novel or any art as "good" or "bad"?

@LN78 Okay, we're way off topic here and in danger of hijacking this thread. Your example is quite silly, because you're asking me to compare the merits of a hypothetical piece of art vs an actual piece of art, which is an exercise in futility. While I will grant you that the chances of said drunken students creating a worthwhile piece of art are low, they're still there. The general consensus will most likely skew in favour of Lawrence of Arabia as the better piece of art, and I would most likely agree with that, but general consensus still doesn't equate to "objective standards". Subjective, sure. Objective, no.

And the difference between "not good" and "complete crap" is nuance. There are degrees to quality, very little exists on a scale allowing for only "perfect" or "worthless".

@LN78 Okay, I'm not going to continue this as it is highly off-topic and simply going around in circles. I disagree with your basic premise and i don't feel the need to change your mind or try to defend my view in every scenario you may present here and so I'll leave it at that

The notion of objective standards in art is what prevents many from pursuing their creative impulses and should be rejected absolutely.

@AgentCooper Agreed, wholeheartedly. While his works are not my style, we would definitely not have had Warhol if there had been an art police deciding for everyone what is good and what is bad and the world would have been poorer for it.

@LN78 Good for Timmy, he will no doubt have a bright future ahead of him.

@LN78 Never said there are no standards. There will always be subjective standards and young Timmy's success is highly dependent on whether people appreciate his art or not. Thankfully, they're not dependent on his uncle's rules for what is or is not proper art, which he considers to be objective and must be shared by all.

Enough of this now, please.

Let’s stay on topic please

I'm also of the notion that the MCU can't really be split into a good and a bad half, as its had some real ups and downs basically forever, for me. I also think the post Infinity war era has delivered us some of the MCUs best like Wakanda Forever, No Way Home and Shang Chi.

On the TV side, I also really enjoyed the Falcon and Hawkeye shows, along with the Werewolf by Night special.

Although I will concede that when it comes to absolutely woeful *****, it does feel like it comes together thicker and faster at this point in the MCU's lifecycle. Especially when it comes to TV shows.

I think WandaVision, Moon Knight and Ms. Marvel all rank up there with some of the worst content in the MCU has ever put out, and Multiverse of Madness and Love and Thunder easily rank for me in the bottom five when it comes to just ranking the MCU movies.

@RogerRoger Yeah, upon reflection, now that you mention it, the first episode did maybe attempt to establish too much of its premise in a somewhat messy fashion.

When you say you think the MCU's strength lies elsewhere, am I right assuming that you mean the more fantastical side of things? When they embrace the inherent fun, vibrancy and spectacle of the superhero genre rather than going for grounded and gritty? This is just me guessing based on your earlier comments (and maybe projecting my own feelings on the matter a bit, too ), I got the impression you like the larger-than-life stuff

My biggest problem with the Netflix series was that it felt at times that they were almost ashamed of the source material and tried to downplay the superhero elements of it as much as possible. I did enjoy them, for the most part, though, but felt there were many missed opportunities there. Curious to hear your take on them.

@RogerRoger I'd say your assessment of the Netflix shows is pretty spot-on, and even though they're not the most egregious offenders of the "sensationalist sex and violence and grimdark" thing that streaming brought to the table, they are guilty of going there. It just seems that there seemed to be a distinct lack of interest in having any sort of fun with these characters whatsoever. That being said, there was some quite decent drama to be found in there, particularly in Daredevil and Jessica Jones, and I'm also one of the two or three people in the world that didn't hate Iron Fist And, I actually think that the cast was spot-on for the most part and am sad to see that only a very few are coming over to the "new" incarnations. I particularly loved Simone Missick and Jessica Henwick as Misty Knight and Colleen Wing and would have loved nothing more than to see them kick ass in a Daughters of the Dragon show. Alas, as I said, many missed opportunities.

Going slightly off topic here, but I like your take on the "we're not worried about censors, so here's more nudity, sex, violence and dark topics that you could ever need" trend for these streaming shows in general and that they are "immature in [their] maturity". That really put into words what's been bothering me a lot about too many shows in later years. I'd like to think that I haven't turned into an old prude as I approach my half-century mark, but, seriously, how many times do we need to see these people naked and boning? Can we get on with the story, please?

As for Secret Invasion, ep 2... well, enthusiasm has dampened a bit now, but I'm still onboard. Helped that they hinted at maybe bringing the super-skrull into the proceedings, but I guess we'll have to wait and see if that goes anywhere good. Coleman is easily the MVP in this show so far, though, and I really hope her character has a long future in the MCU

And, no worries about delayed responses, a good conversation has no expiration date, IMO

@LN78 Yeah, I think the first season of "Daredevil" and "Jessica Jones" were the strongest of the Netflix output, and that was mainly down to the strength of the villains (and their excellent portrayal), as you mentioned. I never really minded Woll or even Jones, but Jones was definitely the weakest of them all. Woll was perfectly fine, I felt, and while there's likely a better Karen Page out there, I think the character was let down as much by the writers as by Woll's performance/choices. Mike Colter was a perfect Luke Cage for me, though, so I would very much like to see him come over, however unlikely that may seem right now.

@RogerRoger Yeah D'Onofrio and Cox made the transition nicely. D'Onofrio managed to be even more Kingpin this time around, which was no small feat And I loved that they lightened up Daredevil a bit, too. I hope they won't go all the way back to his wisecracking 60's incarnation, though. I think the character works best if he's at least a bit tortured and moody, but he shouldn't be all grimdark either.

Completely agree, there are some shows that manage to use sex, nudity, violence and language to enhance the experience, but there are, as you say, those that seems to be either cynically loaded in the hopes of attracting viewers, as well as those where you get the distinct impression that the writer's room consists of adolescents who's gleefully discovered that they're allowed to show boobies and say naughty words. Makes me weep, sometimes.

I also feel that Secret Invasion needs to pick up a bit for the next episode. And yes, if there's no sign of Rhodey in armor when we're through all six, then we're almost in crime of the century territory here

@RogerRoger I guess we'll see when Born Again rolls around, hopefully next year (It's scheduled for release early 2024, but the writer's strike will probably push that). Speaking of Daredevil, just read that Jennifer Garner has officially signed on for Deadpool 3. While I'm not sure if they officially confirmed she will be reprising Elektra or if they are playing coy, but I suppose this confirms that Deadpool 3 will go all-in on the multiverse angle as well. Not sure how enthused I am about that. I thought it was cute in Multiverse of Madness, but found it almost grating in No Way Home. Not sure how many more movies dredging the past to wallow in "here's what was and could have been" instead of forging ahead with their own stories I'll be able to swallow and still be smiling

This week's Secret Invasion still left me a little bit cold. It's like I'm still where I was i the first episode, like "this looks like it could be cool", which is fine for the first episode, but a problem when we're at the halfway mark. The second Super-Skrull tease also annoyed me a little bit, now I worry that they'll build toward it but hold off bringing him in until the last moments of the final episode. There's also a reveal at the end of the episode that also made me a bit grumpy, but I'll hold off on discussing that until you've seen it

Watched Quantumania again last night, and while it's still not the Ant-Man movie I hoped for, there's still plenty to like here once I came in with more managed expectations. I particularly like how exceedingly well Kang works and how comics-accurate they made him (in all his incarnations). Cassie also works really well and Kathryn Newton is doing a great job with her. MODOK is still a dumpster-fire for me and I bristle when I think of how slight Evangeline Lily's role was in a movie called Ant-Man and the Wasp, but I guess that's mainly down to having too many supporting players each needing their time to shine. Still, had a good time with it, and that is the important thing

@RogerRoger Yeah, good point re.: Deadpool 3, hopefully they'll make it good. Not too sure about Shawn Levy, though. The best I can say about his previous output is that I kind of liked Free Guy, but I'll reserve judgement till I've left the theater

And yeah, looking at it as Quantumania instead of Ant-Man and the Wasp is definitely the way to appreciate that one better. Maybe even BIG CAPITAL LETTERS "QUANTUMANIA" smaller subtitle "featuring Ant-Man", next line "(and the Wasp and others)"

The thing that made me grumpy in Secret Invasion was the Rhodey thing. Whereas today's episode actually gave us a little Super-Skrull action and the hope that we actually might see a Super-Skrull on Super-Skrull throwdown and proved my pessimistic take on that wrong, my new pessimistic prognostication is that the real Rhodey will be sidelined till the very end and will likely not suit up. I hope I'm as wrong about this as I was about the Super-Skrull

After being quite optimistic about Secret Invasion when the first trailers came out, I've found it quite disappointing so far. So much so that only I got around to watching last week's episode today, so I watched both. I find it hard to pinpoint exactly why it's not succeeding for me but something about the execution is lacking. Despite the excellent cast I'm sometimes drawn out of it and feel I'm very aware I'm watching people act, so I think it's either the writing or directing, or both.
Also these last 2 episodes have had some laughably stupid action scenes.
The part where there were 2 guards on a door and Gia managed to disarm and point a weapon on the second guard quicker than he could point a weapon ALREADY IN HIS HANDS is just so absurd. I think they tried to make out how he had trouble loading it but it still looked stupid. Why not just make the scene have one guard, it would have been far more believable.
When Gravik pulled the gun at the end of the episode I was a bit disappointed when they had him ask her to turn around, I thought I was in for some more far fetched plot point but was relieved when he actually just shot her. As the credits came, I was starting to think that was quite bold and interesting but a part of me worried if they would do something to make it that she actually survived. So what happens next episode, yep she somehow has time when she is trying to escape for her life, to sneak into the lab and make herself 'super' without anyone noticing. Good job she has been shown how to work it all and it can be done solo.
Onto the big action scene to close the episode. Was it supposed to play out like both sides are playing a turn based game where they stand in a line facing each other and struggling to hit these stationary targets unless the plot decides it? I'm sure that's how the secret service and military operate. They made the soldiers so oblivious to what's going on around them just so the main characters can do what they need to do.
I'll probably watch the next one just to see if they've really killed off a main character this time.

Maybe I'm being too critical on minor things but they really bug me. Probably more so as I thought the premise of aliens being able to impersonate anyone as having a lot of promise to be tense and exciting, being able to play on the obvious paranoia that could generate. Unless it somehow dramatically improves I'm at the point of dropping Disney+ once I've got a couple of things watched.

@BearsEatBeets Whether or not you're too critical on minor things, I will say that I fully agree with your criticism of the show. A huge wasted opportunity, in my mind. I'll stick with it till the end, but I can't really see this turning out to be anything other than the biggest disappointment from Marvel for me.