SJBUK

@Shepherd_Tallon I guess I'm much the same, I don't play a huge number of games and those I spend most time on are on PC.

PS Plus works for me because I get a load of games to try and doesn't matter if I get into them or not. I play GT and Burnout with the kids now and again and the odd Lego game. Next true PS5 purchase will probably be GT7, though will pick up R&C RA at some point.

I can wait for true next-gen PS5 games, at the moment I'm happy with the boost I'm getting from going from a base PS4 to PS5.

@SilkySmile89 Yes, you are right, you have less constraints. But that doesn't make it easier unless you're creating the same game you'd have created on a PS4.

Now, quite rightly, people expect more. You're expected to provide more content, better quality content, better AI, full 3D sound, make use of haptics etc. etc. You simply don't get all of this extra for free. It's more work in planning, it's getting used to new and maybe more complex APIs. Different ways of doing things. You're not just running the same code on a faster CPU and better GPU. You have to do things differently to get the most of the new hardware.

@AndyKazama I take it you mean specifically software upgrades? And software upgrades that only offer easy-to-code speed and graphics updates? Because if I were a games developer and you asked me to do more than that for nothing extra, I'd tell you where to go.

@The_New_Butler And some see no justification at all. It's a balance. You need to produce big profits or your investors sure as heck are not going to let spend billions developing the next big thing. I work in software, I can tell you for sure you don't get to do new and exciting stuff if you aren't already making decent cash with what you have.

I'm NOT saying the balance is right! But it's not as cut-and-dried as some think.

I guess, regardless of how anyone feels, prices are whatever is felt people will pay for them. Same as always, vote with your wallet.

If no-one buys $70 games or pays for upgrades we'll see where it takes us. Either prices will drop or we'll just end up with a choice between a PC or an XBox. Then games can basically be written once and run on everything. Should be cheaper.

Though for me that would be a sad outcome.

@get2sammyb I'm not sure it's right to compare PS4 -> PS5 in the same way as a graphics card update. It's not just a case of tweaking settings to get better graphics.

Devs also need to ensure loading is optimised (more so than just BC speedup), improve the sound and also support Duelsense. You guys do call devs out when this doesn't happen!

And no, before someone accuses me of it, I'm not defending Sony. I'm not defending $70. But as dev myself (not games, granted) I can see extra effort is required to get the best out of PS5.

When he started talking about age and expectation I thought, yeah, that's it, though I've 20+ years on him!

The idea of free upgrades between iterations of platform is, relatively speaking, fairly new to me. I've bought the same films on VHS, DVD and Blu-ray just to get a better experience. Paying for improvement was normal for quite a while!

So maybe some of what I saw as overreaction to the whole HWF thing was unfair. I still think people need to tone things down a bit, though.

R&C is tempting but I think I'll wait a bit longer. Was only 50/50 about getting it.
As an aside, No Mans Sky is currently £19.99. Absolute bargain if it looks like something that might tickle your fancy. Many, many hours of game there.

Looking forward to Overcooked. Been a while since I've found anything the whole family could play together.

Never played Hitman, so looking forward to that as well. A dodgy hand means I need some games I can play at a slower pace, my days of twitch gaming are sadly behind me

@Richnj Although we benefit from the SSD automatically, getting the best out of it does involve additional work. So extra code specifically for the PS5, which would need testing and maintaining in addition to the PS4 code.

I guess it's not just about the money, also the time available to get it done.

@Fatewalker Indeed. Though I guess fans of the other games are quite happy as they were delivered as promised. It would be interesting to know when and why the decision was made to change the deal for HFW.

@Bleachedsmiles Comedy gold, thanks for the laugh

@FX102A Yeah, I agree the collectors edition boxes not having a disk in is a bit bonkers. I'm not one for buying that sort of thing but having a special physical edition of a game, with a load of physical goodies but not the physical game, seems special in the wrong way.

@Voltan One can but hope! I
really should dig-out the VR this weekend and play Ultrawings again. VR2 flight games should look awesome!

@BrainHacker You're absolutely right. I don't get it. I don't get why you're quite so animated about this. I also don't get why you care what I think.

"Are you one of those people who buy something out of impulse? You just buy it because you like it without reading the fine print.". No, not really, not sure how that's relevant, though.

"Sony is taking advantage of PS4 gamers who can't upgrade yet to the PS5". That's one way of looking at it. The way I see it is that if you haven't got a PS5 and really want the game, buy it for your PS4. Play it, enjoy it! When/if you do get a PS5 you can still play it on the PS5 in BC mode, it'll play even better (probably). If the native PS5 version is that much better, you have the option of waiting until you get a PS5 to play it.

Anyone, we're not going to see eye to eye on this, so I'll stop here.

@Gamakazil A quick Google shows Sony is doing fine at the moment and future forecasts look good. Investors don't look at it the same way we consumers do.

Look. I get why people are unhappy. I don't think they're doing a great job at communicating with us. I'd like far more information that I'm getting. I think free or cheap upgrades are a great idea. But I don't consider myself entitled to them, they'll either happen or not. Things change.

But that's it. I can't get as animated as many seem to. I really don't see the point. I don't get the extreme language some are using. I don't get why some (not all) seem to believe they are so entitled to get stuff for cheap or free. The more money Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo etc make the more likely we get new exciting kit to play with. It's balance, if they get it wrong for too long, they will lose market share, lose money. Just vote with your wallets people.

I really just want to see GT, it's been ages since we've seen anything new. Should look even more amazing by now.

Shame about no VR2. You'd have thought they'd be starting to push it by now. Hope it doesn't mean they've hit problems.

@Gamakazil said: "just because someone provides a criticism on something, doesn't mean it hates it or wants to see it burn". Of course not, I never said it did.

The echo-chamber comment was triggered by the posts above mine.

I do agree with some of what you say, I get it. But given the profits Sony are making the statement "everything they could do wrong, they did it" is clearly not, objectively, correct. If it was, they'd not be making a profit and they wouldn't be selling PS5s as quick as they can make them. That's not being a fanboy or defending Sony, it's just stating fact.

The only way of making a difference and influencing Sony (or anyone other big organisation) is to vote with your wallet.

Maybe it's just me but it seems really hard to have a balanced discussion about anything these days. Probably best if I leave this particular one.

@K1LLEGAL and you appear to prefer the MS/XBox environment, which yes, has it's advantages. So enjoy it, have fun with it. Why bother wasting time here?

@Fenbops. When you grow go up you'll understand that just because people have a different opinion to you, they are not necessarily 'defending' anyone or 'dead heads'.

I'll leave you two to the echo-chamber these forums have turned into. Have fun!

@BrainHacker Yep, very sure I'm not defending Sony. Why would I? They care not one jot about me, I care little for them.

I have owned every PS since the first. Not because I'm a Sony 'fanboy' or a 'loyal' customer, it's been for two reasons:

1) I'm a techie, I like new tech and I like people who innovate. Sony always seem to try and do something new with Playstation. Doesn't always work, true, but it's good to try and innovate.
2) I like the games available on the Playstation and think they offer good value for money. Most I can get elsewhere but the above keeps me on Playstation.

At the point I think Sony do not offer the above, I'll take my money somewhere else. Sony exist to make money. They do not exist to make me happy. I accept this, so I don't get my underwear in a twist when I think they may be charging too much for something. I just don't buy it.

If you think Sony owe us anything for being 'loyal' customers, you need a reality check. They exist to make money and they will do that any way they can.

.

@KundaliniRising333 Absurd. Lie. Anti-consumer. Price gouging. Garbage. Cut the cooling capability.

Bingo!

@BrainHacker I'm not defending anything, other than my right to have an opinion. Same as everyone else here. At what point was I defending Sony? What needs 'defending' anyway? They have the right to charge what they want, we have the right decide whether we buy or not. In this case, if I had not got a PS5, I would not buy the game for my PS4. I would wait. Got plenty else to play.
I simply don't get the anger that comes over in some of these posts.
That's my opinion and it's as valid as anyone else's.

@Richnj I was trying to make a point. It's amusing you use the term backlash. You don't find it odd that, with all that's going on in the world, this warrants a backlash? It's nothing new and we have a choice. Personally, I would probably not stump up more than $20 to upgrade a game. In this case, I wouldn't. I don't see the need to have a rant at Sony or anyone else about it. I vote with my wallet.

<rant on>
Jeez, chill people. No-one here is being forced to do anything. We were not forced into buying a PS4, or a PS5. No-one promised every PS4 game would have a free upgrade to PS5. We don't have to buy anything.

If you don't like it, fair enough, say so, but two hundred odd posts labelling Sony almost as the anti-christ is ridiculous. You think it's to expensive, don't buy it.

You want bad guys, look to the damn Taliban. Get some perspective!
<rant off>

The other way of looking at it is that if people can always buy the cheaper PS4 version first and get a PS5 upgrade for free, they will. No-one is going to pay full price, which is not a good business model for them.

Perhaps the compromise is to say, after release date, only PS4 versions of the game purchased before that date get a free upgrade?

Damn. I have so much else I should be doing...

Will be updating this later.

For a more intelligent view than most on the changes have a look at arstechnica.com. Both article and comments on this change were a breath of fresh air!

@Spiders Sad but true. Too much negativity on social media, unfortunately it makes people money.

@Rural-Bandit I guess as someone used to taken things apart to upgrade them it's not an issue for me. I appreciate the fact I could just get an off-the-shelf part, plug it in and get full benefit of the speed. Can get 1TB with appropriate HS for £165. If and when I upgrade, it'll go in a PC.

I also love the fact I can whip off the covers and get to all the vents to clean them out now and again.

@Spiders But why should it be a concern? I'm really puzzled about peoples reaction to this. Things will change over time, always have done, always will do. It's a nonsense to assume there's going to be a problem based on the evidence presented, so why do it?

I've used dozens of different PC heatsinks over the 30 odd years I've built PC's. Bigger and heavier is NOT not always better.

As far as I know no-one has checked for a difference in internal temperature. It's quite possible, with that massive copper base having been removed, it may be lower. Lets wait for facts.

@SilkySmile89 Fair point, though they ship them by the pallet so I guess it's charged on pallet weight rather than on individual boxes. Might make a difference.

All a storm in a teacup, though.

@Olmaz It's also possible that they've come up with a more efficient design that is also lighter. Lighter doesn't necessarily mean cheaper to produce, depends on the materials used. But does mean cheaper to ship, so a cost saving there .

Good grief. It's smaller so it must be worse. So many jokes.

Yes, it's a cost-reduction exercise. But you don't reduce costs by making something more likely to fail. So I'd wager Sony simply found a more efficient way of cooling the system.

If you look closely I don't think the surface area of the heatsink is much, if any, smaller in actuality. The layout has changed.

As long as the heat is coming out of the console, it's not a problem.

I'm really not sure what riled him up so much he thought he needed to say anything about it.

Of course you could play it on a PS3. If you sacrifice fidelity, framerate, population density, graphical variety etc. and are willing to wait longer when you can choose to jump to multiple dimensions rather than one.

As for the SSD tech in the PS5, it's still pretty unique and has huge potential. I'm sure there's lots more to come that will show it better than R&C.

Any that's not 'fanboyism'. Similar technology is being rolled-out on PC's. So folks other than Sony see it as an important technology going forward.

The DualSense charging station link is broken. Was thinking of getting one next payday.

I just get 'Sorry! There are no quests available at this time!'

@GigaGaia Perhaps they need a free version that lets you explore the games out there and maybe tinker a bit. Then a simple upgrade to the full-blown version if you want to have a bash at anything more complex.

I'd have a go if it was cross-platform. Being able to design on the PC and then play on the PS5 would be fantastic.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Some games I'd prefer to play on my PC, on a 24 inch screen. Some on a console with surround sound and a 65 inch screen. Just means I get more choice on which platform to buy it for.

When the PS was a custom bit of hardware it made sense for the games to be platform specific, no real choice. Now? Relatively easy port to anything with an x86 architecture, so why not?

If PSVR2 wasn't on the horizon I'd be thinking this gen Playstation might be my last. Far cheaper than buying a suitable PC and PC VR system and not offered by XBox.

Nowadays an Xbox/PS console is basically an optimised PC in a small box with a few special bells and whistles. It no longer makes sense to create anything radically different, look at the reception PS3 got. Hammered because it was too hard to develop for, not mainstream enough.

So each gen will now be a better and better PC, because that's what everyone wants. On the upside, you are likely to be able to play previous gen games on it with better graphics, content and frame rate.

I'm very happy with my PS5 .

@RubyCarbuncle I don't think I'm ignorant or closed minded because I don't outright condemn 'Crunch'.
Most working people have 'Crunch' at some point, it's not an issue if it's well managed and not the norm. In real-life you can't always do 7.5/8 hours a day and get what you need done.

@Richnj I would expect you could, wasn't a dig at XBox. My way would be wired, so am supremely unfussed

@stormyuk Totally agree! It's not like it's hard to automate that sort of thing so I guess it's a political decision.

I've experienced 'Crunch'/overtime at times in every job I've had in the last 35 odd years. You sometimes have to meet fixed deadlines. Sometimes it's paid back in terms of money, sometimes time off, sometimes nothing but an honest thanks. Some of the best employers have given me both extra pay and time off. If I felt I was being take advantage of I'd leave and get another job. I'm not a slave and have never been forced to work for anyone against my will.

I don't think it's unhealthy as long as it benefits you as well as your employer.

@Richnj Safer to update when you're plugged-in as the controller is being fed power the whole time. Not sure I'd trust wireless updates but I suppose it's a very minor risk.

Battlefield 1942 was, and always will be, my favourite. Many, many hours online playing that. Even play multiplayer co-op with the kids now and again, they seem to be able to overlook the primitive graphics!

@Justin113 I'm really not sure what you're asking for has ever been done. No sane Developer is going to ignore millions of potential customers.

Few devs are going to make games on PCs that only target a fraction of the user base with ultra-high end graphics cards, CPUs and 32Gb of memory. Not when they can create a game engine that scales. I'm not sure why you think consoles would be any different.

PS5 is a PC in a small(ish) box with some nice bells and whistles. Going forward we're going to see more multi-platform games, not less. I don't think this is a bad thing.

@Justin113 I kind of get where you and others are coming from. I was pulled in with the hype to a degree but I can't feel as passionate about it as you folks seem to. Maybe its my advancing years!

I mean, how long would it take to make a AAA title that would take full advantage of every PS5 power and capability, that would truly make it non-viable on PS4? 3 years, 4 years? Were their dev kits available 3/4 years ago, even firm specs on the PS5 capabilities?

I don't expect anything truly ground-breaking for another year or so. R&C looks great but as others have said, apart from the rift mechanic it could be done, albeit with lesser graphical fidelity, on PS4. It's not the game you are looking for. These things just take time, always have.

I've had every PS since the first and in my experience, this early into the new generation, the previous gen has still been getting very decent first-party games.

@hi_rnick I meant the wording of some of the statements around VR in the latter stages of 2020 sounded very much like they were thinking of exiting the arena and that the PS5 might not be compatible. Obviously that turned out not to be the case The point I was trying to make, badly as it turns out, was that as VR development is still very active for PSVR1 maybe it means PSVR2 will be backward compatible or it will be easy to port VR1 titles.

I think some of the latter comments here have hit the nail on the head. It's quite common for people these days to throw insults and accusations around when they're frustrated and that can come across as vitriolic, self-entitled, whining, etc. It's everywhere, it's really wearing and some very valid points are getting lost in it.

I don't think I've heard any lies. Exaggeration, yes, 'marketing speak', yes. So, absolutely nothing out of the ordinary then.

HFW is not for me but it does look good. I don't think anyone, hand on heart, really ever thought it was a PS5 exclusive. I'm sure it'll play well on PS4 but even better on PS5. No different really to playing the same PC game on a mid-level PC and a high-end one. You generally don't upgrade a PC in the expectation of getting exclusive games, just better ones in some areas.

@lessthanleo Good spot, still there, thanks!

Maybe it's just me but I'm surprised at the number of VR titles coming out. 12 months or so ago it sounded like Sony had announced the death of VR. I wonder if devs had been given a heads-up on VR2 and a possibility of either backwards compatibility support (at the API level?) or a simple migration path.

Probably wishful thinking.