SJBUK

@Carck It may be that some aspects of how a single-player campaign works is now changed according to your progress or some other telemetry. Stuff that used to be baked-in to distributed code is now done externally, making it easier to be tweaked, improved or somehow customised to you without the user having to patch.

As I say, I don't know. I'm going to assume there is a decent reason for it until I know for sure there isn't.

@GADG3Tx87 I put a 1Tb in and yes, filled up pretty quick! But much quicker than the external 1TB SSD I was using. I can fit everything I play normally between the internal and NVMe.

I did have a number of errors moving some files from external drive to NVMe but I think they were probably damaged, I had a lot of issues with standby mode.

@Perryg92 No, you can only enable the new settings if you select
headphones and two channel as far as I recall. One of the first things I had a play with.

Was going to say I might buy it at some point, as the PS4 version is currently at £12.59. However, after a quick google, seems it'll only run 1080p@30 in BC mode? Is that right?

@Carck Sure is, that's what happens when you get a lot of closed-minded people in one place.

"Of course always online singleplayer is bad."

Depends what it offers, surely? Yes, bad if it offers nothing, but not so bad if it does. I'll go against the flow and wait to make an informed decision. More people should try it, makes life far less stressful.

I'll probably buy it anyway, on the grounds there's worse things that would happen if my internet drops. Like being unable to work.

Shill - an accomplice of a confidence trickster or swindler who poses as a genuine customer to entice or encourage others.

@RubyCarbuncle If you re-read what you've written, looking at it from the other point of view, you are just as guilty in the smart-arse stakes. As soon as name-calling comes into an argument, you've probably lost. I don't personally see this as an issue and so really don't get the strength of feeling expressed by those that do. And vice-versa, I suppose. I doubt anyone on either side is going to change their view but we can be polite about it.

@Saad_Moonwalker Well, given no-one actually seems to know why they need it, so it's beyond everyone

@MidnightDragonDX Hooray for always on! Lots of people do have reliable internet

@MakersMark I'm PS4 games on my PS5. Most look or play better than they did on my PS4, so no great hardship!

I know they said they wouldn't show anything to do with PSVR2 but I feel they should have done. Even just a tease, a glimpse of the hardware, headset and controllers and a few seconds of gameplay so we could see the visual improvements.

Nope, doesn't need an internet connection, so not interested.

Joke Just not my thing.

I'd like to know why we would need to be online to play single player, seems unnecessary on the face of it. But what is it about people today getting so upset about things before they even know the detail? When we actually find out why online is needed, we can make an informed decision as to whether we want to buy it or not. Doesn't that make sense?

For good or ill we're already at the point now where you need to be online to function fully in society. I'm old. I still remember having to buy magazines for reviews. Then phone around shops to find if someone had what I wanted in stock. Then send a cheque to pay for it and wait best part of a month for the cheque to clear and for them to post it to me.

Now I can read a review on something and have it delivered ( real physical stuff) the same day. There's always a price to pay for that level of convenience.

Campaign mode has an asterisk next to it. Maybe to save progress? Could do with more info.

Never played it so I'd pay 19.99 for it on PS5 but it sure looks outdated graphically speaking.

Out of all shown all I'd buy if it all came out tomorrow would be GT. Though I thought some of the in-game footage looked pretty flat in parts, need to see more of that. Nothing else had me on the edge of my seat, nothing I thought a PS4 Pro couldn't pull off. I haven't seen it all in 4K yet, though.

Coming from a base PS4 I'm happy enough at the moment, I've a lot of good enhanced PS4 games to play. After that, PSVR2 next year will keep me on PS. If PSVR2 falls flat, though, I'm starting to think PS5 may be the last console purchase. Family seems to spend more time on PC's than the PS5.

@eagletrippin No, I'm told it's quite obvious when I'm being a smartarse

I remember reading about file sizes shrinking quite a few times so I did a quick Google. The lazy reference was because I couldn't be arsed to show the results here. Plus my dinner was on the table!

@eagletrippin ?

@eagletrippin A lazy Google turned up 12 smaller. I suspect there's a lot more.

@TowaHerschel7 Hopefully they've made some progress in helping with the nausea!

Damn, no button on the pass page for me to buy it, just blank.
I can get HITMAN 3 - Free Starter Pack (Demo) , will that do? Not in a position to actually try it at the moment.

EDIT: Ah, probably need to install Hitman 2 first, maybe.

Excellent find, thanks!

Motorstorm and GT7 would be perfect for me. No excuses not to show GT7 gameplay after all this time. I know Motorstorm is a forlorn hope, though😟

@Deadcow Ah, no problem
I was just reading about an interview with Mathijs de Jonge, quoted on IGN , where he apparently said "development on Horizon Forbidden West has used the PS4 console, and so it’s designed with that hardware in mind".

So I wonder if right at the start the intention was to develop on the PS5 but that just didn't happen? He then waxes lyrical about the extra water effects etc etc they can do on PS5.

More confused messaging.

@cherryghost41 Ok, yes, I'm about to be pedantic. We are not being forced to buy two copies of the same game. You can buy the PS4 version and play it better on the PS5 with BC later. It's a personal choice if we buy the PS5 version at a later date. We are not being forced to do anything.

In my (probably arsey) opinion (that 99.9% don't give a shiny ***** about) misuse of emotive language is rife in online forums these days and results in bad feeling and misunderstandings where there doesn't need to be.

Back in my box.

@armondo36 I see where you're coming from, from a personal point of view I agree.

@armondo36 I think 'punished' is a bit strong. You can play it using BC mode on the PS5, usually at higher fidelity and framerate. So you'll get some benefit for free anyway.

The expectation of a free upgrade really is a very recent thing. I suspect it'll come back to haunt developers as they'll be forever tied to providing something for nothing.

@Deadcow I guess I'm confused between HFW and HZD. But my understanding is both were developed initially on the PS4, with extras added for the PS5 later. The HZD upgrade is free isn't it? Has got good reviews. HFW looks improved on PS5, so I'm struggling to understand what has been downgraded.

@Deadcow "What stinks about this is that Sony has DOWNGRADED HZD" Where did you get that from? If that's from the devs I've missed it. Do we know they had the PS5 version ready and delayed it to downgrade to PS4? Have they chopped stuff out of the PS5 version? I honestly want to know if I missed something (quite possible).

@SilkySmile89 I guess part of the problem is that this thread has turned into a discussion about all-sorts rather than just upgrades.

On the topic of upgrades, I would expect a 'free' upgrade to consist of ensuring a boost in performance when running a PS4 game on a PS5 in BC mode. Though this might be a big ask for some, depends in how the game is written.

From that point on, what do you class as an upgrade? I can pretty much guarantee most devs have already come up with a long list of things they'd like to with their games on a PS5. They'll be arranged in order of effort and perceived benefit. Some might get done for free, a tweak to a scaling algorithm, changing assets to higher quality ones you already have. Some as an up-skilling exercise, getting familiar with what the PS5 offers.

Beyond that, it's a compromise. Do you slow or stop work on the next project? Do you prioritise PS5 upgraded features over bug fixes or new features? How much can you really afford to do for free? This will vary from developer to developer.

Devs don't stop when a game goes out. They're immediately onto the next thing whilst simultaneously supporting the stuff already gone out. It can be hard work and I do not begrudge them making money out of it. The question about who gets what money is valid but a different discussion, I think.

@SilkySmile89 Just gimmicks? Fair enough. If you do not use any of a platforms unique abilities then I agree, seems like not much more work for the devs. In fact, given you get a nice boost with BC, why even bother with a PS5 version at all?

When people talk about a PS5 version I had assumed they are talking about more than a bump in frame rate and tweaked graphics. Games can and do get criticized if they don't use these 'gimmicks'. Whether you want to believe it or not there is extra work to do. You have two platforms to test on, for a start, because some of the code will be different. That's not free. We all know what happens when you don't test properly!

But I'm just a software developer with 35 years experience, what do I know

@The_New_Butler I think Sony have been in the game long enough and successfully enough, to know what they're doing from the point of view of generating revenue. They've just shown they can and will change track when they feel it necessary.

Just for the record, I haven't paid more than £50 quid for a game in my life. I haven't paid more than that because I haven't found a game I consider worth it!

@Shepherd_Tallon I guess I'm much the same, I don't play a huge number of games and those I spend most time on are on PC.

PS Plus works for me because I get a load of games to try and doesn't matter if I get into them or not. I play GT and Burnout with the kids now and again and the odd Lego game. Next true PS5 purchase will probably be GT7, though will pick up R&C RA at some point.

I can wait for true next-gen PS5 games, at the moment I'm happy with the boost I'm getting from going from a base PS4 to PS5.

@SilkySmile89 Yes, you are right, you have less constraints. But that doesn't make it easier unless you're creating the same game you'd have created on a PS4.

Now, quite rightly, people expect more. You're expected to provide more content, better quality content, better AI, full 3D sound, make use of haptics etc. etc. You simply don't get all of this extra for free. It's more work in planning, it's getting used to new and maybe more complex APIs. Different ways of doing things. You're not just running the same code on a faster CPU and better GPU. You have to do things differently to get the most of the new hardware.

@AndyKazama I take it you mean specifically software upgrades? And software upgrades that only offer easy-to-code speed and graphics updates? Because if I were a games developer and you asked me to do more than that for nothing extra, I'd tell you where to go.

@The_New_Butler And some see no justification at all. It's a balance. You need to produce big profits or your investors sure as heck are not going to let spend billions developing the next big thing. I work in software, I can tell you for sure you don't get to do new and exciting stuff if you aren't already making decent cash with what you have.

I'm NOT saying the balance is right! But it's not as cut-and-dried as some think.

I guess, regardless of how anyone feels, prices are whatever is felt people will pay for them. Same as always, vote with your wallet.

If no-one buys $70 games or pays for upgrades we'll see where it takes us. Either prices will drop or we'll just end up with a choice between a PC or an XBox. Then games can basically be written once and run on everything. Should be cheaper.

Though for me that would be a sad outcome.

@get2sammyb I'm not sure it's right to compare PS4 -> PS5 in the same way as a graphics card update. It's not just a case of tweaking settings to get better graphics.

Devs also need to ensure loading is optimised (more so than just BC speedup), improve the sound and also support Duelsense. You guys do call devs out when this doesn't happen!

And no, before someone accuses me of it, I'm not defending Sony. I'm not defending $70. But as dev myself (not games, granted) I can see extra effort is required to get the best out of PS5.

When he started talking about age and expectation I thought, yeah, that's it, though I've 20+ years on him!

The idea of free upgrades between iterations of platform is, relatively speaking, fairly new to me. I've bought the same films on VHS, DVD and Blu-ray just to get a better experience. Paying for improvement was normal for quite a while!

So maybe some of what I saw as overreaction to the whole HWF thing was unfair. I still think people need to tone things down a bit, though.

R&C is tempting but I think I'll wait a bit longer. Was only 50/50 about getting it.
As an aside, No Mans Sky is currently £19.99. Absolute bargain if it looks like something that might tickle your fancy. Many, many hours of game there.

Looking forward to Overcooked. Been a while since I've found anything the whole family could play together.

Never played Hitman, so looking forward to that as well. A dodgy hand means I need some games I can play at a slower pace, my days of twitch gaming are sadly behind me

@Richnj Although we benefit from the SSD automatically, getting the best out of it does involve additional work. So extra code specifically for the PS5, which would need testing and maintaining in addition to the PS4 code.

I guess it's not just about the money, also the time available to get it done.

@Fatewalker Indeed. Though I guess fans of the other games are quite happy as they were delivered as promised. It would be interesting to know when and why the decision was made to change the deal for HFW.

@Bleachedsmiles Comedy gold, thanks for the laugh

@FX102A Yeah, I agree the collectors edition boxes not having a disk in is a bit bonkers. I'm not one for buying that sort of thing but having a special physical edition of a game, with a load of physical goodies but not the physical game, seems special in the wrong way.

@Voltan One can but hope! I
really should dig-out the VR this weekend and play Ultrawings again. VR2 flight games should look awesome!

@BrainHacker You're absolutely right. I don't get it. I don't get why you're quite so animated about this. I also don't get why you care what I think.

"Are you one of those people who buy something out of impulse? You just buy it because you like it without reading the fine print.". No, not really, not sure how that's relevant, though.

"Sony is taking advantage of PS4 gamers who can't upgrade yet to the PS5". That's one way of looking at it. The way I see it is that if you haven't got a PS5 and really want the game, buy it for your PS4. Play it, enjoy it! When/if you do get a PS5 you can still play it on the PS5 in BC mode, it'll play even better (probably). If the native PS5 version is that much better, you have the option of waiting until you get a PS5 to play it.

Anyone, we're not going to see eye to eye on this, so I'll stop here.

@Gamakazil A quick Google shows Sony is doing fine at the moment and future forecasts look good. Investors don't look at it the same way we consumers do.

Look. I get why people are unhappy. I don't think they're doing a great job at communicating with us. I'd like far more information that I'm getting. I think free or cheap upgrades are a great idea. But I don't consider myself entitled to them, they'll either happen or not. Things change.

But that's it. I can't get as animated as many seem to. I really don't see the point. I don't get the extreme language some are using. I don't get why some (not all) seem to believe they are so entitled to get stuff for cheap or free. The more money Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo etc make the more likely we get new exciting kit to play with. It's balance, if they get it wrong for too long, they will lose market share, lose money. Just vote with your wallets people.

I really just want to see GT, it's been ages since we've seen anything new. Should look even more amazing by now.

Shame about no VR2. You'd have thought they'd be starting to push it by now. Hope it doesn't mean they've hit problems.

@Gamakazil said: "just because someone provides a criticism on something, doesn't mean it hates it or wants to see it burn". Of course not, I never said it did.

The echo-chamber comment was triggered by the posts above mine.

I do agree with some of what you say, I get it. But given the profits Sony are making the statement "everything they could do wrong, they did it" is clearly not, objectively, correct. If it was, they'd not be making a profit and they wouldn't be selling PS5s as quick as they can make them. That's not being a fanboy or defending Sony, it's just stating fact.

The only way of making a difference and influencing Sony (or anyone other big organisation) is to vote with your wallet.

Maybe it's just me but it seems really hard to have a balanced discussion about anything these days. Probably best if I leave this particular one.

@K1LLEGAL and you appear to prefer the MS/XBox environment, which yes, has it's advantages. So enjoy it, have fun with it. Why bother wasting time here?

@Fenbops. When you grow go up you'll understand that just because people have a different opinion to you, they are not necessarily 'defending' anyone or 'dead heads'.

I'll leave you two to the echo-chamber these forums have turned into. Have fun!

@BrainHacker Yep, very sure I'm not defending Sony. Why would I? They care not one jot about me, I care little for them.

I have owned every PS since the first. Not because I'm a Sony 'fanboy' or a 'loyal' customer, it's been for two reasons:

1) I'm a techie, I like new tech and I like people who innovate. Sony always seem to try and do something new with Playstation. Doesn't always work, true, but it's good to try and innovate.
2) I like the games available on the Playstation and think they offer good value for money. Most I can get elsewhere but the above keeps me on Playstation.

At the point I think Sony do not offer the above, I'll take my money somewhere else. Sony exist to make money. They do not exist to make me happy. I accept this, so I don't get my underwear in a twist when I think they may be charging too much for something. I just don't buy it.

If you think Sony owe us anything for being 'loyal' customers, you need a reality check. They exist to make money and they will do that any way they can.

.

@KundaliniRising333 Absurd. Lie. Anti-consumer. Price gouging. Garbage. Cut the cooling capability.

Bingo!