I think I've worked out Sony's cunning plan for accelerating the PS5 adoption rate, they're going to break the PSN for PS4 users and force people to upgrade to PS5 to fix it...
@TheFrenchiestFry according to the GI article apparently not. Fast travel is near instantaneous apparently.
As to the pictures? It looks OK I guess, if you're into gorgeous looking games with high levels of light emitting particles and effect out your derrière I suppose. But apart from the outstanding image quality and outstanding artistry present in each frame I mean, what is there really impressive about them? Well apart from the impressive amount of detail at distance, and... oh OK then, it looks beautiful, Insomniac are at the top of their game right now and I'm so impressed with what they are doing.
It's the AAA developers who are taking issue with the GDK and optimisation. No disrespect intended to indie Devs, but actually MS's GDK approach helps them out most. They're unlikely to really "push" the hardware, and having a single development environment, no matter how wonky, across X1, X1S, X1X, XSS, XSX and PC probably helps them more. For AAA developers who are expected to wring every ounce of performance they can from any given console platform the development environment is sub-optimal.
But ironically giving Devs just a really streamlined, familiar and easy to use environment like Sony have done is probably preferable to indie Devs as well. You look at some of the games smaller studios have coming to PS5 and it's a big step up on last gen. I think Sony have nailed the development environment again.
Honestly? The date? I'd assume it is hinting at something, and given it's a Thursday... well the UI reveal actually seems like a legitimate possibility. I doubt Burger King will be doing the reveal, but a sponsored link up where at the end they get linked with a big news reveal with a competition? Given the coverage they've got over this? It's clearly worth a lot of money in marketing terms.
@NEStalgia the question of optimisation is an interesting one, because right now I can tell you I know of two AAA games where they are really drilling down already into the PS5 versions of their game and making very big changes to the way the logic of the game runs. They're able to do this because the PS5 devkits and SDK just don't get in the way. The other point to make clear is that things like the cache scrubbers in the PS5 just work, no need to do anything "specific" to get that nice feature working. You can directly code them if you wish, but it isn't required right now, and the systems standard implementation is plenty good enough. I'd argue it's currently harder to optimise on the XSS and X because you 1) have two targets and 2) the development environment, the GDK just isn't as good and the tools aren't there, and in some cases might never be. I'm going to be interested to see where it all shakes out myself. I know of one game where the metrics are pretty much neck and neck right now, with both systems having minor advantages here and there, but I also know another game which is a little while away where the PS5 currently has both the frames and resolution advantage by quite the margin, although that could be down to how awkward the GDK is proving to be for some teams. Truth is, I don't think there'll be many knockout blows from third party multi-platform games.
@GREGORIAN it is, as in a paradigm shift. The PS5 is engineered for data throughput. Lots of data throughput. It has a large cache advantage too. The simple truth is you throw large assets (data wise) at it and it simply goes om nom nom, more please!
To use an analogy I heard from a Dane (maybe @God_of_Nowt might appreciate it too), he said it's like a sausage factory. You could have 52 sausage machines in one factory, and 36 in the other. The 36 sausage machines are faster, but you'd expect the 52 sausage machines to make more sausages. However, the first factory has a massive opening in it and the meat is delivered via large trucks. Meanwhile the other factory has small openings, so the trucks are unloaded outside and the meat carried in by hand. Keeping the 36 sausage machines supplied is really easy, keeping the 52 sausage machines supplied takes a lot of work. Eventually you'll get efficient at running the 52 sausage machine factory, but you'll never have the advantage in meat (data) flow the other factory has.
I thought that was simultaneously the best analogy about the architectural differences between the two systems, but also the most Danish analogy I'd ever heard... they like a good pork based product in Denmark, normally served with beer. God I miss nights out in Copenhagen. Truth is taking that sausage factory analysis to extremes actually helps further. You see in the 36 machine factory the ingredients are kept in individual storage units and the machine can take what they need automatically to make different blend / recipes on the fly, and just remove say sage from the mix and replace it with mustard seeds. In the other factory you have to remove all the ingredients from the machine and load a new mixture in. That's the difference those custom scrubbers have on the PS5. Larger pool of cache, running at much higher clocks that gives an even further advantage because I can remove and replace specific pieces of data without having to flush the entire cache and reload a different collection of data into it. The reduction in lost operations that provides means hitting the mathematical theoretical limits on the PS5 should be technically easier than the XSX. There will always be "performance" locked away inside systems you'll just never reach, but there should be less in the PS5.
The only query really is what happens when those complex peak demand scenes hit the PS5, will it have the headroom to deal with the load? The XSX has more CUs to spread the load out too at those peak demand moments, and that should help it deal better when needing to maintain frames and resolution, but again it might not actually work out like that, because the PS5 is just so damn fast. That's what every developer says, the PS5 is fast. And it is.
@NEStalgia no, what you're misunderstanding is that the variable clocks in the PS5 are not SmartShift. Not even close. SmartShift might provide the architectural framework on top of which Sony have built their variable clocks, but it isn't SmartShift. It works in completely different ways
As to heat dissipation and throttling, well that fan will be calibrated to spin at variable revolutions, all systems throttle under heat loads, even my water cooled PC in summer here had issues. So yeah, if you're in a warmer environment performance is affected if the system can not keep the components in their optimal thermal operating temperatures. Thing is, Sony seem to have taken that incredibly seriously. Looking at the raw thermal capacity that heatsink will provide... well... they've given themselves some head room I'd guess.
@Agramonte & @Theheadofabroom air is pulled into the SSD compartment via the front air vents and then out via a gap at the top towards the fan as it pulls the air in to the system.
@Oz_Momotaro there's an Ex-EA Dev who is making his own indie engine called Cherno, I think someone told me he has two channels now, but he's done some reaction videos to game reveals when he talks pretty competently about what's on screen. If you are interested in that stuff though there are presentations on technology developed by Devs at conferences, you can find the videos online.
@LiamCroft I really wasn't being serious. But that thing was torn down into more than the components I can remember. I know it's probably well over engineered like all first generation Sony consoles... although I've never fully understood that phrase... and man, no one should be expected to count the amount of screws in that bloody thing.
@Mintie that is what I assumed as well. That those games in the PS+ collection had mostly been selected because they worked with boost mode, or had been patched to work with boost mode.
As to this modders work? Nice uplift, I always admire the modding community. There have been some damn fine software engineers that have come from the game modding community over the years, and this is a nice little fix / patch that he's logically worked through and fixed. Shows a methodical mind, and that's something a software engineer needs... and caffeine. Lots of caffeine.
X2 side panels
X2 vent inlets
X1 fan guard
X1 fan
X1 WiFi 6 antenna
X1 Blu-tooth 5 antenna
X1 heatsink
X1 motherboard
X1 Blu-Ray drive (did he separate the EM guard?)
X1 PSU
X1 backplate EM guard with integral heat pipe
X1 backplate heatsink
X1 Front plate EM guard
X1 heatsink rear bracing attachment
X1 Rear APU guard
X1 chassis spine for fan housing
X1 Main chassis for motherboard mounting
X1 SSD EM Guard
X4 Smaller EM guards (gawd knows what they covered)
X1 Front panel
X1 stand
...
And I'm sure there's stuff I missed, not counting screws though, because not even I'm that obsessive. lol. So I can think of 26 components, and knowing Sony products there's probably more EM guards I've forgotten as well. The original fat PS3 was well over engineered in that regard too.
Question 10 is wrong, it was actually broken down into way more components than 22. All the antennae were removed and the fan vents, as well as the backplate heat sink. Also there are 4 mental plates that act as EM guards that were removed. I'll let you off though as there's loads of tiny components... and let's not forget the screws.
There comes a time in every gamers life, where they realise EA haven't got a clue what they are doing. If any game actually cried out for being a GaaS it is Star Wars: Squadrons. I'm not entirely convinced that EAs senior management know what they're doing. Maybe this is one of their market "experiments" which tells them what gamers want.
Firstly... good article, and I agree with Brian, Trophies were initially a way of increasing gamer interaction with software, extracting extra "value" from a game. Very rapidly some publishers / developers saw it as a way to increase sales to a certain subset of gamer. Thing is, no matter the system, publishers will always find a way of targeting such individuals.
Secondly... you can be a professional trophy hunter? Where do I sign up? That sounds loads better than the rubbish I'm about to embark on... not jealous. Honest.
@God_of_Nowt oh God, that DF talk "explaining" how RT was working in Mikes-Morales with reference to an RTX 2060 was it hurt my forehead. Because I was smashing it into the desk. The PS5 is great at maintaining coherency in off screen geometry, something the 20XX series isn't so hot at. So no, it isn't comparable. Also talking about the MS counts for doing x, y and z hurt too. I need to get and understand the data throughput and data management of the PS5 much, much better. I think for current paradigms / ways of doing things the XSX is bang on. I have a sneaky suspicion as we all learn to manage flow around and across CUs within the PS5 extracting performance should be easier. I'm wigging out for a few days as I'm doing some homework myself.
@Medic_Alert sort of. Yeah. I know of a game currently planned to launch in January 2021 that essentially is pushing the GPU hard, mainly because I think it's not well optimized... but... I'll park that for now. It runs the GPU in gameplay quite hard, but on the CPU side it doesn't seem to tax the CPU anywhere near as much. Might be because of last gen legacy code. So, despite pushing the GPU hard, it's not touching thermal throttling limits because the CPU spends most of the time twiddling it's thumbs and picking it's nose. It will be interesting to see how the thermal throttling works when both are seeking peak clocks for protracted periods. What is clear though now we're seeing RDNA 2 tech specs, is that these RDNA 2 CU's are meant to be run at over 2.0GHz, in fact the AMD geometry and RT functions are clearly meant to be run at higher clocks, they rely on them and appear clock sensitive. I'm going to be interested to see the first generation of games, and how they perform. I still expect the XSX to have a slight frame advantage, but I'm interested to see how the PS5 handles geometry, pixel fill rates, alpha effects, RT and coherency. Because I think it might have a per operation advantage in these areas.
@Medic_Alert if you say take the CPU cores dedicated to running the OS during game function, truth is they're not taxed, so supplying them with energy is pointless. You switch that over to the GPU. It doesn't work quite like that, and I'm not entirely sure if they can target individual cores / CUs on the PS5, but I'm hearing they might be able to boost individual components inside CUs. To be clear, I think that sounds like bollocks to me, and I have no idea how it'd work in terms of coherency, but, it's not coming from Neogaf or Reddit console warriors, it's coming from developers. The PS5 is set up to run the GPU at those higher clocks, but to reduce those clocks when not needed. That's how it was explained to me nearly 2 years ago. So it drops cycles (clocks) when a game isn't so computationally expensive, and that saves on energy consumption, component wear and heat dissipation. If it can target specific components though, well, that's revolutionary.
@JJ2 this, it's not SmartShift on the PS5 APU. It has different parameters for its function boundaries for starters. My brain hurts from all the brain-dead tech talk about these consoles. I think Digital Foundry has been one of the worst things to happen to gaming. They quite often get technical explanations wrong, and then gamers treat their explanations as gospel. It can be painful. There's a chap on YouTube called NX Gamer I think, his technical explanations tend to be far better, especially around things like Ray Tracing. He deserves more coverage / subs.
@Oz_Momotaro that heatsink is anything but "oldskool" it's a mightily impressive piece of engineering. All my PC building buddies and my competitive OC Friends, we all really like what Sony have shown.
@Agramonte I'm not talking about the size of the drive. I'm talking about the I/O and priority levels coupled with sequential read not bring quick enough. I'm not sure by the end of 2020 there will be any SSDs that are quick enough to actually match the baseline performance and brute force it. I kinda hope Marvell and Sony decide to licence the controller to third parties to make like for lunch me compatible drives.
@NEStalgia not really. Smartshift doesn't quite work like that from the analyser on the PS5. Being honest I've not seen any code max out both, but the suggested ceiling for both seems to be close to peak performance. We'll know a lot more once we get a few years in. The PS5 and RDNA2 are clearly intended to run at these clocks though, and that does have implications for shaders m, ROPs and TMUs, because if this is their intended clocks, running under them might not be wise.
@NEStalgia the overclock isn't a gimmick. RDNA2 is targeting 2.2GHz to 2.4GHz, that much is clear from the stuff coming out from Navi 21, and 22. If anything you could say the XSX is under-clocked. I've told people repeatedly on this forum and elsewhere that the PS5 is designed to pretty much sit at those higher clocks, and drop when it's not needed, but no one listens. AMDs Big Navi roadmap in 2018 stated they were targeting over 2.0GHz with their architecture, seems like they've hit it. It's also worth pointing out that the PS5 heatsink is cooling way more than just the APU / SoC. It looks like a really solid solution couple with the liquid metal thermal compound. If you asked right now which design will cool better, I can't think of any advantage the XSX solution would have over the PS5's solution.
@God_of_Nowt I've seen the stuff on social media about XSX. Yes. However, if it wasn't venting hot air out of the top I'd be concerned. The YouTuber that burnt his had on the SSD card though was troubling. I'd suggest that's a faulty pre-production unit. The heatsink looked adequate when I saw it, though I said at the time a dual fan set up one pushing one pulling would've been my preference. My gut is telling me the XSX should be fine. Looking at the two if you asked me which has the best cooling solution, without knowing what's in the heat pipes etc.... well, I'd have to say the PS5 no question. The thicker PCB also makes me happy, as does the direct cooling of every component. I just can't imagine Microsoft would release a system with the potential for RRoD mk.2. I don't buy it.
1) The homeshare feature has been rumoured for a while, it was in a patent. The idea of loaning a digital game, I believe was the consensus of what the patent seemed to suggest. But I have no idea what it is.
2) I fully expect PS+ and PS Now to morph into the same service / tiers of service. Here's what I heard months ago:
PS+ = lowest tier, game discounts / online play and a game collection, no monthly free games, cheaper than current sub.
PS+ Gold = middle tier, current PS Now but with online play thrown in, more akin to Game Pass.
PS+ Platinum = top tier, all of the above but with streaming to other devices.
This wasn't from a Sony rep but a third party publisher strategist. Who knows? I do expect PS Now and PS+ to change though.
@NeuralDeclan I don't think Microsoft will be just able to implement some of the PS5's UI features. I just don't think they're ready to show it yet. The teardown was the really annoying / bizarre one to me, because once we saw what the console looked like it was all set in stone, so why no teardown? Only Sony's marketing team really know. The UI has already been seen by developers, well many developers, as they've got production units in some studios now. So it'll either leak, or Sony will get there first.
If they aren't flogging custom side panels they'll be missing a trick... But on the other hand storing the options could be costly. Plus they'd have to do panels for the DE and SE, that's a lot of variants. I do expect third parties might get in on the customisation act either way.
@DualshockInfinit it was the key thing for me. I have a few take away notes:
1) the heatsink is massive and complex with contact points on both sides of the motherboard.
2) liquid metal as the contact medium between the APU and heatsink is brilliant. I'm glad the patent wasn't wasted. That's a really nice addition.
3) that is a hefty fan, the bigger the fan / blades the less rotations that are needed to shift the air = a lot less noise.
4) the spacing of the components is good. Might be far apart, but it'll help with heat dissipation.
5) Thermal compound on all components, and everything cooled... nice.
6) The PCB it's all mounted on is a very chunky (thick) board. That's good. Less chance of warping under heat.
Generally I think that's a very well engineered console, particularly the cooling solution. Looking at the heatsink on the XSX I'm now concerned it might not be enough, either that or Sony have gone for massive over kill. Whatever the truth the PS5 solution looks superior in every way, obviously material and heat pipe compounds permitting.
Finally. So SSD mounted to the PCB, and a single M.2 expansion bay... and that heatsink is brilliant. And they did go with a liquid metal thermal agent. Nice.
@Menchi that's fair enough, but I think genuinely judging a game on pre-release code is pointless. I've worked on games where FPS was targeting 60 FPS, but about 2 months out was sitting at just about 45. As you get into optimisation that starts to ramp up and you hit your targets. Not saying that'll happen here, but judging an unfinished product? Just not wise.
@JapaneseSonic maybe it doesn't matter. Just think it'd help with the realism of the frame, and help the character models feel more grounded. I guess having seen pretty good fabric simulation in Miles Morales I was expecting to see more of it.
@Vacuumator well that makes sense if the comment wasn't meant to be a response to me.
As to shorter / less content rich products... I agree. I look at many Ubishaft games and see all the "bloat" and wonder what it really adds to the play experience. The answer is usually not a lot. I think there is something to be said for more focused experiences, where the game is distilled down to a few refined elements. I happen to think the narrative in Uncharted Lost Legacy was greatly improved by the shorter playing time. Compare it to UC4 where I think it drags out a bit too much at times and the pacing ruins the flow of the story and I think there's an argument to be had that maybe maintaining narrative engagement over a 30 hour plus game is nigh on impossible. Or more difficult to achieve. I'm actually going to pick this game up.
@Menchi a frame rate analysis on an unreleased game is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Frame optimisation / frame locking is one of the last tasks teams do. Quite often sadly, this actually makes up part of the day 1 patch. It shouldn't, but it does.
@JapaneseSonic I've gone back and had a look, I agree it's an improved model, but I'm not sure it's fabric simulation. What I'm talking about is how the kits look in movement, does the fabric move naturally? Does it react to the motion of the player? It might look slightly better on the PS5, but it looks to my eye to be pre-baked animation, and if it's not then they need to find a way to implement it better.
People talking about the "washed out look" need to understand that developers often use desaturated colours / colour palettes to hide low background details , or to hide a myriad of other problems. It can also help with smoothing out lens blur effects in the background should the step change be too harsh. So my guess would be that it is a deliberate decision to hide all the faults / low quality assets. I'm sure @God_of_Nowt could tell you more.
@hi_drnick I've looked at the animations in this video a few times, and I'm not sure they are using improved / better animations. The smoother transitions between movements might just be a result of a higher frame rates. It could also be down to a much improved rigging for the animations to map onto in the PS5 version. Again I'd ask @God_of_Nowt their thoughts. To my eye, it could be a different animation set, but I think it's probably the old animation set with better rigging and frames.
@BAMozzy is correct as well, the lighting, and what looks to be RT is a vast improvement, the reflections definitely seem to be RT, and the character models are a vast improvement. Possibly more polygons in the nose of a PS5 model than the entirety of the PS4 models. lol. The shadows are an improvement, but I can't tell if that's RT too.
Onto the negatives... cloth simulation is nonexistent. I'd have expected more material based rendering. The kits still look like hard items with little realistic movement to them, and the characters don't seem to be part of the scene either. There isn't a sense of weight or contact to the environment, they seem to just sit and glide in the world. I'd expect these things to improve as the generation goes on.
@Vacuumator and I'm not sure that's what I said. What I actually said was:
"Smaller game experiences"
So I'm not sure why you're targeting that one at me.
I personally preferred Infamous First Light and Uncharted Lost Legacy over their larger and more illustrious full AAA releases, partly because I preferred the protagonists, and partly because they were more focused experiences. I wish studios would try making more of these sorts of experiences.
@theheadofabroom there's also a bear with an annoying musical instrument. I remember seeing analysis that suggested had Alan Wake, Quantum Break, ReCore and Sunset Overdrive been PlayStation games their sales would've been tripled. I still can't wrap my head around that to be honest. I bought and enjoyed all of them.
@Weebleman yeah, those sort of numbers tally with Amazon metrics too, and the assumptions every business analyst within the industry I know thinks as well. Here in Sweden Webhallen, El Giganten and Media Markt all report roughly 4 to 1 interest in pre-orders in favour of PS5. They all seem to intimate they've been given significantly more initial stock of the PS5 as well. The same story is told in the US from retailers like Game Stop.
@Medic_Alert I know people in Microsoft who view the Xbox as an inconvenience. They'd be happy if they could put Game Pass on Nintendo and Sony systems and ditch the Xbox. That's the truth of it. Not saying that's what Mr Spencer wants, but that cabal within Microsoft exists.
@Kai_ lol, indeed. If neither manufacture the units they won't be able to sell them. However, if rumours of Sony booking out almost 60% of TSMCs fabrication capacity for 12 months is true, well... I think Sony will be making a lot of units. There's already talk Sony's fabrication demands has delayed RDNA2 for AMD, and will hit their availability. Lets just say if the analysts have got this one wrong, well, Sony is going to have to buy some very big warehouses to hide all the egg of their faces.
"Can I ask, and this is not criticism. Does the review about the lack of content take into account the price?"
And I'd genuinely like to hear what @LiamCroft answer is. I've had discussions around the pricing of smaller game experiences at studios on many occasions, and I often find myself in the minority. I don't think price should affect the review, or review score (different topic, but I hate review scores), because the game should stand on its merits. Price is a guide or driver of consumer decisions, not the relative quality of a game. Most though seem to think that a smaller cheaper game should get a higher score because of the price.
PS. I forgot to add, really good and informative review. Told me what I needed to know about the game.
PS. @Medic_Alert I too am in the wait and see mode, just saying what I've heard from inside the industry. Everyone thinks the PS5 will end up being a much bigger seller than the PS4. Whereas generally speaking people think Microsoft will be doing well to maintain current sales numbers. Because XSS|X isn't their focus, Game Pass is.
@Medic_Alert well major publisher like EA and Ubisoft are operating on the assumption the PS5 will outsell XSS|X by 3 to 1 over the life cycle. That might have changed with the acquisition of Zenimax, but it shows that their internal analysts think pretty much the same. I'm not sure anything truly seismic has happened to shift the needle in any meaningful way. Sony will hit double digit first party exclusives in the PS5's first year, including serious industry heavy hitters. Microsoft might get Halo Infinite out in that time. Sony are going very, very hard on the first year, and if they manufacture at the levels that have been suggested coming out of TSMC, they will sell incredibly strongly.
Comments 834
Re: PS4 Firmware Update 8.00 Available to Download Today
I think I've worked out Sony's cunning plan for accelerating the PS5 adoption rate, they're going to break the PSN for PS4 users and force people to upgrade to PS5 to fix it...
Re: Gallery: The Latest Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales PS5 Screenshots Are Outstanding
@TheFrenchiestFry according to the GI article apparently not. Fast travel is near instantaneous apparently.
As to the pictures? It looks OK I guess, if you're into gorgeous looking games with high levels of light emitting particles and effect out your derrière I suppose. But apart from the outstanding image quality and outstanding artistry present in each frame I mean, what is there really impressive about them? Well apart from the impressive amount of detail at distance, and... oh OK then, it looks beautiful, Insomniac are at the top of their game right now and I'm so impressed with what they are doing.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
It's the AAA developers who are taking issue with the GDK and optimisation. No disrespect intended to indie Devs, but actually MS's GDK approach helps them out most. They're unlikely to really "push" the hardware, and having a single development environment, no matter how wonky, across X1, X1S, X1X, XSS, XSX and PC probably helps them more. For AAA developers who are expected to wring every ounce of performance they can from any given console platform the development environment is sub-optimal.
But ironically giving Devs just a really streamlined, familiar and easy to use environment like Sony have done is probably preferable to indie Devs as well. You look at some of the games smaller studios have coming to PS5 and it's a big step up on last gen. I think Sony have nailed the development environment again.
Re: Assassin's Creed Valhalla Teases the Mythical Realms of Asgard and Jotunheim
@nessisonett pretty much yes.
Re: Did the PS5 UI Reveal Just Get Teased by Burger King?
Honestly? The date? I'd assume it is hinting at something, and given it's a Thursday... well the UI reveal actually seems like a legitimate possibility. I doubt Burger King will be doing the reveal, but a sponsored link up where at the end they get linked with a big news reveal with a competition? Given the coverage they've got over this? It's clearly worth a lot of money in marketing terms.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@NEStalgia the question of optimisation is an interesting one, because right now I can tell you I know of two AAA games where they are really drilling down already into the PS5 versions of their game and making very big changes to the way the logic of the game runs. They're able to do this because the PS5 devkits and SDK just don't get in the way. The other point to make clear is that things like the cache scrubbers in the PS5 just work, no need to do anything "specific" to get that nice feature working. You can directly code them if you wish, but it isn't required right now, and the systems standard implementation is plenty good enough. I'd argue it's currently harder to optimise on the XSS and X because you 1) have two targets and 2) the development environment, the GDK just isn't as good and the tools aren't there, and in some cases might never be. I'm going to be interested to see where it all shakes out myself. I know of one game where the metrics are pretty much neck and neck right now, with both systems having minor advantages here and there, but I also know another game which is a little while away where the PS5 currently has both the frames and resolution advantage by quite the margin, although that could be down to how awkward the GDK is proving to be for some teams. Truth is, I don't think there'll be many knockout blows from third party multi-platform games.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@GREGORIAN it is, as in a paradigm shift. The PS5 is engineered for data throughput. Lots of data throughput. It has a large cache advantage too. The simple truth is you throw large assets (data wise) at it and it simply goes om nom nom, more please!
To use an analogy I heard from a Dane (maybe @God_of_Nowt might appreciate it too), he said it's like a sausage factory. You could have 52 sausage machines in one factory, and 36 in the other. The 36 sausage machines are faster, but you'd expect the 52 sausage machines to make more sausages. However, the first factory has a massive opening in it and the meat is delivered via large trucks. Meanwhile the other factory has small openings, so the trucks are unloaded outside and the meat carried in by hand. Keeping the 36 sausage machines supplied is really easy, keeping the 52 sausage machines supplied takes a lot of work. Eventually you'll get efficient at running the 52 sausage machine factory, but you'll never have the advantage in meat (data) flow the other factory has.
I thought that was simultaneously the best analogy about the architectural differences between the two systems, but also the most Danish analogy I'd ever heard... they like a good pork based product in Denmark, normally served with beer. God I miss nights out in Copenhagen. Truth is taking that sausage factory analysis to extremes actually helps further. You see in the 36 machine factory the ingredients are kept in individual storage units and the machine can take what they need automatically to make different blend / recipes on the fly, and just remove say sage from the mix and replace it with mustard seeds. In the other factory you have to remove all the ingredients from the machine and load a new mixture in. That's the difference those custom scrubbers have on the PS5. Larger pool of cache, running at much higher clocks that gives an even further advantage because I can remove and replace specific pieces of data without having to flush the entire cache and reload a different collection of data into it. The reduction in lost operations that provides means hitting the mathematical theoretical limits on the PS5 should be technically easier than the XSX. There will always be "performance" locked away inside systems you'll just never reach, but there should be less in the PS5.
The only query really is what happens when those complex peak demand scenes hit the PS5, will it have the headroom to deal with the load? The XSX has more CUs to spread the load out too at those peak demand moments, and that should help it deal better when needing to maintain frames and resolution, but again it might not actually work out like that, because the PS5 is just so damn fast. That's what every developer says, the PS5 is fast. And it is.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@NEStalgia no, what you're misunderstanding is that the variable clocks in the PS5 are not SmartShift. Not even close. SmartShift might provide the architectural framework on top of which Sony have built their variable clocks, but it isn't SmartShift. It works in completely different ways
As to heat dissipation and throttling, well that fan will be calibrated to spin at variable revolutions, all systems throttle under heat loads, even my water cooled PC in summer here had issues. So yeah, if you're in a warmer environment performance is affected if the system can not keep the components in their optimal thermal operating temperatures. Thing is, Sony seem to have taken that incredibly seriously. Looking at the raw thermal capacity that heatsink will provide... well... they've given themselves some head room I'd guess.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@Agramonte & @Theheadofabroom air is pulled into the SSD compartment via the front air vents and then out via a gap at the top towards the fan as it pulls the air in to the system.
@Oz_Momotaro there's an Ex-EA Dev who is making his own indie engine called Cherno, I think someone told me he has two channels now, but he's done some reaction videos to game reveals when he talks pretty competently about what's on screen. If you are interested in that stuff though there are presentations on technology developed by Devs at conferences, you can find the videos online.
Re: How Closely Were You Watching the PS5 Teardown Video?
@LiamCroft I really wasn't being serious. But that thing was torn down into more than the components I can remember. I know it's probably well over engineered like all first generation Sony consoles... although I've never fully understood that phrase... and man, no one should be expected to count the amount of screws in that bloody thing.
Re: Bloodborne Fan Makes 60 Frames-Per-Second Patch, Hopes Sony Releases PS5 Update
@Mintie that is what I assumed as well. That those games in the PS+ collection had mostly been selected because they worked with boost mode, or had been patched to work with boost mode.
As to this modders work? Nice uplift, I always admire the modding community. There have been some damn fine software engineers that have come from the game modding community over the years, and this is a nice little fix / patch that he's logically worked through and fixed. Shows a methodical mind, and that's something a software engineer needs... and caffeine. Lots of caffeine.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Proves Immensely Popular with Huge View Count
But I thought no one cares about it? And it was only whingers who wanted to see it?
Re: How Closely Were You Watching the PS5 Teardown Video?
Off the top of my head:
X2 side panels
X2 vent inlets
X1 fan guard
X1 fan
X1 WiFi 6 antenna
X1 Blu-tooth 5 antenna
X1 heatsink
X1 motherboard
X1 Blu-Ray drive (did he separate the EM guard?)
X1 PSU
X1 backplate EM guard with integral heat pipe
X1 backplate heatsink
X1 Front plate EM guard
X1 heatsink rear bracing attachment
X1 Rear APU guard
X1 chassis spine for fan housing
X1 Main chassis for motherboard mounting
X1 SSD EM Guard
X4 Smaller EM guards (gawd knows what they covered)
X1 Front panel
X1 stand
...
And I'm sure there's stuff I missed, not counting screws though, because not even I'm that obsessive. lol. So I can think of 26 components, and knowing Sony products there's probably more EM guards I've forgotten as well. The original fat PS3 was well over engineered in that regard too.
Re: How Closely Were You Watching the PS5 Teardown Video?
Question 10 is wrong, it was actually broken down into way more components than 22. All the antennae were removed and the fan vents, as well as the backplate heat sink. Also there are 4 mental plates that act as EM guards that were removed. I'll let you off though as there's loads of tiny components... and let's not forget the screws.
Re: Don't Expect Star Wars: Squadrons to Get Any Post-Launch Content
There comes a time in every gamers life, where they realise EA haven't got a clue what they are doing. If any game actually cried out for being a GaaS it is Star Wars: Squadrons. I'm not entirely convinced that EAs senior management know what they're doing. Maybe this is one of their market "experiments" which tells them what gamers want.
Re: Interview: What Does a Professional Trophy Hunter Think of the New Levelling System?
Firstly... good article, and I agree with Brian, Trophies were initially a way of increasing gamer interaction with software, extracting extra "value" from a game. Very rapidly some publishers / developers saw it as a way to increase sales to a certain subset of gamer. Thing is, no matter the system, publishers will always find a way of targeting such individuals.
Secondly... you can be a professional trophy hunter? Where do I sign up? That sounds loads better than the rubbish I'm about to embark on... not jealous. Honest.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@God_of_Nowt oh God, that DF talk "explaining" how RT was working in Mikes-Morales with reference to an RTX 2060 was it hurt my forehead. Because I was smashing it into the desk. The PS5 is great at maintaining coherency in off screen geometry, something the 20XX series isn't so hot at. So no, it isn't comparable. Also talking about the MS counts for doing x, y and z hurt too. I need to get and understand the data throughput and data management of the PS5 much, much better. I think for current paradigms / ways of doing things the XSX is bang on. I have a sneaky suspicion as we all learn to manage flow around and across CUs within the PS5 extracting performance should be easier. I'm wigging out for a few days as I'm doing some homework myself.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@Medic_Alert sort of. Yeah. I know of a game currently planned to launch in January 2021 that essentially is pushing the GPU hard, mainly because I think it's not well optimized... but... I'll park that for now. It runs the GPU in gameplay quite hard, but on the CPU side it doesn't seem to tax the CPU anywhere near as much. Might be because of last gen legacy code. So, despite pushing the GPU hard, it's not touching thermal throttling limits because the CPU spends most of the time twiddling it's thumbs and picking it's nose. It will be interesting to see how the thermal throttling works when both are seeking peak clocks for protracted periods. What is clear though now we're seeing RDNA 2 tech specs, is that these RDNA 2 CU's are meant to be run at over 2.0GHz, in fact the AMD geometry and RT functions are clearly meant to be run at higher clocks, they rely on them and appear clock sensitive. I'm going to be interested to see the first generation of games, and how they perform. I still expect the XSX to have a slight frame advantage, but I'm interested to see how the PS5 handles geometry, pixel fill rates, alpha effects, RT and coherency. Because I think it might have a per operation advantage in these areas.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@Medic_Alert if you say take the CPU cores dedicated to running the OS during game function, truth is they're not taxed, so supplying them with energy is pointless. You switch that over to the GPU. It doesn't work quite like that, and I'm not entirely sure if they can target individual cores / CUs on the PS5, but I'm hearing they might be able to boost individual components inside CUs. To be clear, I think that sounds like bollocks to me, and I have no idea how it'd work in terms of coherency, but, it's not coming from Neogaf or Reddit console warriors, it's coming from developers. The PS5 is set up to run the GPU at those higher clocks, but to reduce those clocks when not needed. That's how it was explained to me nearly 2 years ago. So it drops cycles (clocks) when a game isn't so computationally expensive, and that saves on energy consumption, component wear and heat dissipation. If it can target specific components though, well, that's revolutionary.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@JJ2 this, it's not SmartShift on the PS5 APU. It has different parameters for its function boundaries for starters. My brain hurts from all the brain-dead tech talk about these consoles. I think Digital Foundry has been one of the worst things to happen to gaming. They quite often get technical explanations wrong, and then gamers treat their explanations as gospel. It can be painful. There's a chap on YouTube called NX Gamer I think, his technical explanations tend to be far better, especially around things like Ray Tracing. He deserves more coverage / subs.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@Oz_Momotaro that heatsink is anything but "oldskool" it's a mightily impressive piece of engineering. All my PC building buddies and my competitive OC Friends, we all really like what Sony have shown.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@Agramonte I'm not talking about the size of the drive. I'm talking about the I/O and priority levels coupled with sequential read not bring quick enough. I'm not sure by the end of 2020 there will be any SSDs that are quick enough to actually match the baseline performance and brute force it. I kinda hope Marvell and Sony decide to licence the controller to third parties to make like for lunch me compatible drives.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@NEStalgia not really. Smartshift doesn't quite work like that from the analyser on the PS5. Being honest I've not seen any code max out both, but the suggested ceiling for both seems to be close to peak performance. We'll know a lot more once we get a few years in. The PS5 and RDNA2 are clearly intended to run at these clocks though, and that does have implications for shaders m, ROPs and TMUs, because if this is their intended clocks, running under them might not be wise.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@NEStalgia the overclock isn't a gimmick. RDNA2 is targeting 2.2GHz to 2.4GHz, that much is clear from the stuff coming out from Navi 21, and 22. If anything you could say the XSX is under-clocked. I've told people repeatedly on this forum and elsewhere that the PS5 is designed to pretty much sit at those higher clocks, and drop when it's not needed, but no one listens. AMDs Big Navi roadmap in 2018 stated they were targeting over 2.0GHz with their architecture, seems like they've hit it. It's also worth pointing out that the PS5 heatsink is cooling way more than just the APU / SoC. It looks like a really solid solution couple with the liquid metal thermal compound. If you asked right now which design will cool better, I can't think of any advantage the XSX solution would have over the PS5's solution.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@God_of_Nowt I've seen the stuff on social media about XSX. Yes. However, if it wasn't venting hot air out of the top I'd be concerned. The YouTuber that burnt his had on the SSD card though was troubling. I'd suggest that's a faulty pre-production unit. The heatsink looked adequate when I saw it, though I said at the time a dual fan set up one pushing one pulling would've been my preference. My gut is telling me the XSX should be fine. Looking at the two if you asked me which has the best cooling solution, without knowing what's in the heat pipes etc.... well, I'd have to say the PS5 no question. The thicker PCB also makes me happy, as does the direct cooling of every component. I just can't imagine Microsoft would release a system with the potential for RRoD mk.2. I don't buy it.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@Agramonte i doubt either will be quick enough for use / compatibility with the PS5 I/O controller.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@themightyant interesting.
1) The homeshare feature has been rumoured for a while, it was in a patent. The idea of loaning a digital game, I believe was the consensus of what the patent seemed to suggest. But I have no idea what it is.
2) I fully expect PS+ and PS Now to morph into the same service / tiers of service. Here's what I heard months ago:
PS+ = lowest tier, game discounts / online play and a game collection, no monthly free games, cheaper than current sub.
PS+ Gold = middle tier, current PS Now but with online play thrown in, more akin to Game Pass.
PS+ Platinum = top tier, all of the above but with streaming to other devices.
This wasn't from a Sony rep but a third party publisher strategist. Who knows? I do expect PS Now and PS+ to change though.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@NeuralDeclan I don't think Microsoft will be just able to implement some of the PS5's UI features. I just don't think they're ready to show it yet. The teardown was the really annoying / bizarre one to me, because once we saw what the console looked like it was all set in stone, so why no teardown? Only Sony's marketing team really know. The UI has already been seen by developers, well many developers, as they've got production units in some studios now. So it'll either leak, or Sony will get there first.
Re: PS5's Removable Panels Could Suggest a Highly Customisable Console
If they aren't flogging custom side panels they'll be missing a trick... But on the other hand storing the options could be costly. Plus they'd have to do panels for the DE and SE, that's a lot of variants. I do expect third parties might get in on the customisation act either way.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@itsMeaningless yes, it's the M.2 SSD bolt for holding expansion SSDs in place.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@DualshockInfinit it was the key thing for me. I have a few take away notes:
1) the heatsink is massive and complex with contact points on both sides of the motherboard.
2) liquid metal as the contact medium between the APU and heatsink is brilliant. I'm glad the patent wasn't wasted. That's a really nice addition.
3) that is a hefty fan, the bigger the fan / blades the less rotations that are needed to shift the air = a lot less noise.
4) the spacing of the components is good. Might be far apart, but it'll help with heat dissipation.
5) Thermal compound on all components, and everything cooled... nice.
6) The PCB it's all mounted on is a very chunky (thick) board. That's good. Less chance of warping under heat.
Generally I think that's a very well engineered console, particularly the cooling solution. Looking at the heatsink on the XSX I'm now concerned it might not be enough, either that or Sony have gone for massive over kill. Whatever the truth the PS5 solution looks superior in every way, obviously material and heat pipe compounds permitting.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@NeuralDeclan the lack of UI showcase.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
@Oh_fiddlesticks or the people keep getting smaller and smaller.
Re: PS5 Teardown Video Gets Up Close and Personal with the Console
Finally. So SSD mounted to the PCB, and a single M.2 expansion bay... and that heatsink is brilliant. And they did go with a liquid metal thermal agent. Nice.
Re: NBA 2K21 on PS4 Is a Great Looking Game, But This PS5 Comparison Is Insane
@Menchi that's fair enough, but I think genuinely judging a game on pre-release code is pointless. I've worked on games where FPS was targeting 60 FPS, but about 2 months out was sitting at just about 45. As you get into optimisation that starts to ramp up and you hit your targets. Not saying that'll happen here, but judging an unfinished product? Just not wise.
Re: NBA 2K21 on PS4 Is a Great Looking Game, But This PS5 Comparison Is Insane
@JapaneseSonic maybe it doesn't matter. Just think it'd help with the realism of the frame, and help the character models feel more grounded. I guess having seen pretty good fabric simulation in Miles Morales I was expecting to see more of it.
Re: Star Wars: Squadrons - This Might Not Be the Game You're Looking For
@Vacuumator well that makes sense if the comment wasn't meant to be a response to me.
As to shorter / less content rich products... I agree. I look at many Ubishaft games and see all the "bloat" and wonder what it really adds to the play experience. The answer is usually not a lot. I think there is something to be said for more focused experiences, where the game is distilled down to a few refined elements. I happen to think the narrative in Uncharted Lost Legacy was greatly improved by the shorter playing time. Compare it to UC4 where I think it drags out a bit too much at times and the pacing ruins the flow of the story and I think there's an argument to be had that maybe maintaining narrative engagement over a 30 hour plus game is nigh on impossible. Or more difficult to achieve. I'm actually going to pick this game up.
Re: NBA 2K21 on PS4 Is a Great Looking Game, But This PS5 Comparison Is Insane
@Menchi a frame rate analysis on an unreleased game is about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Frame optimisation / frame locking is one of the last tasks teams do. Quite often sadly, this actually makes up part of the day 1 patch. It shouldn't, but it does.
Re: NBA 2K21 on PS4 Is a Great Looking Game, But This PS5 Comparison Is Insane
@JapaneseSonic I've gone back and had a look, I agree it's an improved model, but I'm not sure it's fabric simulation. What I'm talking about is how the kits look in movement, does the fabric move naturally? Does it react to the motion of the player? It might look slightly better on the PS5, but it looks to my eye to be pre-baked animation, and if it's not then they need to find a way to implement it better.
Re: NBA 2K21 on PS4 Is a Great Looking Game, But This PS5 Comparison Is Insane
People talking about the "washed out look" need to understand that developers often use desaturated colours / colour palettes to hide low background details , or to hide a myriad of other problems. It can also help with smoothing out lens blur effects in the background should the step change be too harsh. So my guess would be that it is a deliberate decision to hide all the faults / low quality assets. I'm sure @God_of_Nowt could tell you more.
@hi_drnick I've looked at the animations in this video a few times, and I'm not sure they are using improved / better animations. The smoother transitions between movements might just be a result of a higher frame rates. It could also be down to a much improved rigging for the animations to map onto in the PS5 version. Again I'd ask @God_of_Nowt their thoughts. To my eye, it could be a different animation set, but I think it's probably the old animation set with better rigging and frames.
@BAMozzy is correct as well, the lighting, and what looks to be RT is a vast improvement, the reflections definitely seem to be RT, and the character models are a vast improvement. Possibly more polygons in the nose of a PS5 model than the entirety of the PS4 models. lol. The shadows are an improvement, but I can't tell if that's RT too.
Onto the negatives... cloth simulation is nonexistent. I'd have expected more material based rendering. The kits still look like hard items with little realistic movement to them, and the characters don't seem to be part of the scene either. There isn't a sense of weight or contact to the environment, they seem to just sit and glide in the world. I'd expect these things to improve as the generation goes on.
Re: Star Wars: Squadrons - This Might Not Be the Game You're Looking For
@Vacuumator and I'm not sure that's what I said. What I actually said was:
"Smaller game experiences"
So I'm not sure why you're targeting that one at me.
I personally preferred Infamous First Light and Uncharted Lost Legacy over their larger and more illustrious full AAA releases, partly because I preferred the protagonists, and partly because they were more focused experiences. I wish studios would try making more of these sorts of experiences.
Re: Sony Expects PS5 to Outsell PS4's First Fiscal Year
@theheadofabroom there's also a bear with an annoying musical instrument. I remember seeing analysis that suggested had Alan Wake, Quantum Break, ReCore and Sunset Overdrive been PlayStation games their sales would've been tripled. I still can't wrap my head around that to be honest. I bought and enjoyed all of them.
Re: Star Wars: Squadrons - This Might Not Be the Game You're Looking For
@Ready_Player_One that does sound listen me the dream set-up.
Re: Sony Expects PS5 to Outsell PS4's First Fiscal Year
@God_of_Nowt would that franchise be a Rare franchise by any chance?
Re: Sony Expects PS5 to Outsell PS4's First Fiscal Year
@Weebleman yeah, those sort of numbers tally with Amazon metrics too, and the assumptions every business analyst within the industry I know thinks as well. Here in Sweden Webhallen, El Giganten and Media Markt all report roughly 4 to 1 interest in pre-orders in favour of PS5. They all seem to intimate they've been given significantly more initial stock of the PS5 as well. The same story is told in the US from retailers like Game Stop.
Re: Sony Expects PS5 to Outsell PS4's First Fiscal Year
@Medic_Alert I know people in Microsoft who view the Xbox as an inconvenience. They'd be happy if they could put Game Pass on Nintendo and Sony systems and ditch the Xbox. That's the truth of it. Not saying that's what Mr Spencer wants, but that cabal within Microsoft exists.
Re: Sony Expects PS5 to Outsell PS4's First Fiscal Year
@Kai_ lol, indeed. If neither manufacture the units they won't be able to sell them. However, if rumours of Sony booking out almost 60% of TSMCs fabrication capacity for 12 months is true, well... I think Sony will be making a lot of units. There's already talk Sony's fabrication demands has delayed RDNA2 for AMD, and will hit their availability. Lets just say if the analysts have got this one wrong, well, Sony is going to have to buy some very big warehouses to hide all the egg of their faces.
Re: Star Wars: Squadrons - This Might Not Be the Game You're Looking For
@Dange that's an interesting question:
"Can I ask, and this is not criticism. Does the review about the lack of content take into account the price?"
And I'd genuinely like to hear what @LiamCroft answer is. I've had discussions around the pricing of smaller game experiences at studios on many occasions, and I often find myself in the minority. I don't think price should affect the review, or review score (different topic, but I hate review scores), because the game should stand on its merits. Price is a guide or driver of consumer decisions, not the relative quality of a game. Most though seem to think that a smaller cheaper game should get a higher score because of the price.
PS. I forgot to add, really good and informative review. Told me what I needed to know about the game.
Re: Sony Expects PS5 to Outsell PS4's First Fiscal Year
PS. @Medic_Alert I too am in the wait and see mode, just saying what I've heard from inside the industry. Everyone thinks the PS5 will end up being a much bigger seller than the PS4. Whereas generally speaking people think Microsoft will be doing well to maintain current sales numbers. Because XSS|X isn't their focus, Game Pass is.
Re: Sony Expects PS5 to Outsell PS4's First Fiscal Year
@Medic_Alert well major publisher like EA and Ubisoft are operating on the assumption the PS5 will outsell XSS|X by 3 to 1 over the life cycle. That might have changed with the acquisition of Zenimax, but it shows that their internal analysts think pretty much the same. I'm not sure anything truly seismic has happened to shift the needle in any meaningful way. Sony will hit double digit first party exclusives in the PS5's first year, including serious industry heavy hitters. Microsoft might get Halo Infinite out in that time. Sony are going very, very hard on the first year, and if they manufacture at the levels that have been suggested coming out of TSMC, they will sell incredibly strongly.