@eddie429 the PAX event now makes so much more sense now there's an event two days earlier. It also means that come TGS they might have even more to show. Maybe this is the beginning of Sony's marketing campaign proper. I hope so.
@eddie429 think you're right, seems like they're gearing up to show launch line up, price and launch date, and I think that's what most people want to see.
What's the betting it's 30 minutes of Knack 3 and 10 minutes of Godfall? Joking. It's got to be launch date, launch price and launch games surely? Maybe that means the PAX event is the teardown / UI stuff.
@dr_lovejoy those are all fair points, and the initial batches I'm certain they'll be shipping by air freight too probably. However, many of those costs would have been the same for previous generations too, notably the PS4 and PS4 Pro, which at launch had similar cost of parts to the PS5 supposedly. Those both launched at $399.99. Obviously that's not indicative of what they'll do now, as times change. On the SSD though I'd have thought there was scope to use whatever they've developed in other products like Enterprise Servers, but on that, and to be honest cost of system I'm way, way out of my comfort zone. Just confused me as to why people think the PS5 is automatically going to cost way more than the XSX, given the cost of parts for that machine were supposedly higher than the PS5 costs. Of course all of this is speculation from articles on news sites that might not be accurate.
@Cybrshrk nope, not going to post any LinkedIn or Glassdoor profiles. People either take it at face value or are free to think I'm full of it. Doesn't faze me one way or the other.
As to your iPhone theory, I think you are right. I think Microsoft are looking at Xbox Series Y and Z further down the line, maybe a couple of years and upgrade you via your finance plan of choice. I think generations always annoyed Microsoft, they got into consoles to promote their Direct 3D API, and to stave off any potential competitors from the console space emerging. On that score job done. Whatever is next for the Xbox Division, right now it doesn't look like a new generation in 5 to 6 years time.
@eddie429 I'm currently not working, I'm between projects. Handed off my work fully about 2 months ago. Still answering the odd question via email, but been twiddling my thumbs for a while now. Ironically going back fully around the start of November.
@GamingFan4Lyf I have worked with both systems SDKs. In terms of geometry, or say destruction of environments the Series S will potentially hold it's bigger brother back. Those things do not scale in a linear way. Sure, you could do maybe similar things by using heavy amounts of billboarding for draw distance, or pre-bake the destruction, but both fundamentally require different development pipelines, and that's my worry. The RAM in the XSS is the issue. It's not enough, and the bandwidth isn't high enough either. Ports from PS360 era to the Switch should be easy, because the Switch is quite frankly a better system, but taking the Witcher 3 as the best example, or maybe Doom 2016, those required different development teams to approach those games in different ways. When one company (Sony) is trying to help studios reduce costs and speed up development and the other (Microsoft) is putting barriers in the way of that... well... there's going to be animosity. I love the XSX for the record, just wished they'd plumped for better RAM.
@thedevilsjester I don't know about Kinnect type situation, but the XSS is unwelcome. I think a lot of people I know hope the PS5 is a sort of PS2 run away success and they can essentially ignore Xbox this gen, because it's not an ideal situation. It mostly the RAM, but the GPU also presents an issue for some, in particular it's clock. Some calculations like happening at speed, slow them down and you have an issue.
@leucocyte indeed the XSS, probably damages the PS4 more, but the PS4 slim is apparently like $40's to make and the PS4 Pro is apparently $178's to make. Me? If I'm Sony I kill the PS4 Pro, and keep selling the PS4 Slim for $99's.
I also think Sony need to do something with PS Now and PS+. But that's probably a problem for another day.
@GamingFan4Lyf you do not target the higher spec system and scale back. That's just not how development works. You target lowest common denominator so you're not giving yourself an impossible headache when trying to "scale down". Sorry, but I don't listen to any of the rubbidh coming from MS about development, because the people talking are not devs and have never been devs.
@Kopite I'd like to point out at this juncture in the discussion that when the PS4 launched the parts cost $432's... it launched at $399.99. When the PS4 Pro launched it cost $450's to manufacture... it launched at $399.99. The rumoured cost of the PS5's are apparently $428's (which I assume is for the Digital edition) and $450's (which I assume is for the standard edition), so I would love someone to explain to me in detail why Sony can't hit a $499.99 price point like the XSX. To be honest going on past behaviour and Sony's willingness to eat a loss per unit at launch, why they couldn't hit $399.99 for the standard edition, and $349.99 for the digital edition. I'm genuinely waiting for someone to convince me why the company with a gaming division that has made billions up on billions this generation isn't the one with the war chest, but the company that lost billions and billions can. The XSX parts cost is rumoured to be $525's, so I'm just baffled as to why with cheaper manufacturing costs, which will have come down further since Sony's decision to double production, why they couldn't at the very least match the XSX price with the PS5 SE.
@GamingFan4Lyf as a developer, with over 20 years experience I can tell you pixels do not scale in the same way as geometry. The RAM situation in the XSS is a problem. It's not about 4K textures, it's about other things which don't scale in a linear direction. As a developer I hate that the XSS exists, hate it. I understand it from a consumer perspective, but it will hold the generation back.
@GamingFan4Lyf well somebody ought to tell Microsoft games aren't just about pixel fill rate. Sure, if I'm running lower resolutions I might be able to get away with lower geometry models, but that's not linear in the same way. Ditto physics and other things. The XSS is a bottleneck on the next-gen pipeline, no question, but I'm sure we'll all get used to it, it will however ironically mean PS5 exclusives will have an advantage XSX exclusives won't... they won't be held back.
@Matroska I have, I've got a game up and running on it. I think the limited number of XSX Dev kits in the wild might be the problem. Teams need them to get their games finished, not to produce video reels of what their currently unfinished games look like. There are more PS5 Dev kits in the wild. I'm just spit balling, but honestly it's not some conspiracy as far as I know.
@Matroska don't worry about software running on XSX, please, it's weird to me, mainly because getting something up and running on it isn't all that hard. Why they aren't showing stuff running on it I don't know, but it's not because it's rubbish, or at least from what I've seen it's not.
@Juanalf why? Honestly, why? They were toast given Microsoft way too much free air time Sony were done, blah, blah, blah... Then June event comes around and bam. They can easily do the same. Sorry, but the moment Sony announces anything, and I mean anything the news switches to them. I would like to know more personally, but fundamentally I think Sony will ultimately handle it well, their marketing team is one of the very best out there.
@eddie429 honestly? I was told week of TGS was Sony's plan. Doing something at PAX? Like a big reveal? I don't know, doesn't "seem" like that's how Sony would handle a major announcement about the PS5. Just saying.
If it's PS5 related I'd not be too surprised, but I'm not exactly holding my breath. I would think maybe the teardown? Ah who knows what Sony are up to these days.
@Shepherd_Tallon I think they're not going to budge from their schedule, and I was told they'd do stuff around TGS 2020, which starts the 23rd September and runs to the 27th. So maybe something the day before the show? Who knows.
@Shepherd_Tallon Sony are a tech company too, the amount of tech patents they own is pretty insane, I think people forget Sony are one of the world's largest consumer electronics companies too. We'll see soon enough what Sony have got, but right now Microsoft have executed their plan well.
@Shepherd_Tallon well the costs to manufacture the PS5, before they doubled production was rumoured to be either $428's or $450's. That's not including shipping. On average though Sony have eaten a 15% loss on hardware at launch, the PS3 bumps that a bit, but even if you remove it you still get them eating an average of 12% costs. So I can see the digital hitting around $399.99 fairly comfortably actually. The PS5 SE is the interesting one, by doubling production though they could've brought unit costs way down, I mean at that volume fabrication at TSMC is going to lead to massive savings on their APU, and unlike Microsoft they're producing one APU spec, not two. I think they might have wiggle room.
@Shepherd_Tallon of course competition is good, you could argue the reason the XSS even exists and the XSX is as cheap as it is, is because they really need to compete with Sony this time round. I have no issue with the concept of smart delivery, as much as I do the BS marketing spiel. It's cross buy in concept, but it's very good Microsoft have pushed it this generation. Honestly though? Sony were targeting a price range between $349.99 and $499.99 for the PS5, and I think they'll get I side that comfortably. I think both have executed their plans fairly well this time. The parts costs for the PS5 are lower than the XSX, so if the PS5 is more than the XSX Sony are making money on it.
@Shepherd_Tallon I think in terms of marketing blurb and stuff, the Microsoft PR team is killing it this generation...
Smart Delivery Velocity Architecture
Neither mean very much in reality, I mean VA is currently an immature API that's targeted textures mostly, not much on the "hardware" side of things. But both do sound good and people sure do like posting about them.
@Fenbops they need to fire the focus group tester who decided to change the name. It is truly awful. Don't like the art direction change either, I much preferred the desaturated colour palette from the reveal with the splashes of over saturated colour, and the almost brush stroke artistic look. I guess I'm not the target audience for this game, which is fine.
@nessisonett I can see a situation where on a game by game basis one or the other has an edge over the other. I can see one having better ray traced shadows, the other doing better in BVH and reflection. One doing better in geometry, the other managing textures and other maps better. I can even see a situation where one, 9 times out of 10 holds a 4K resolution more readily (dynamic resolutions will be a thing this generation as it goes on) as well as maintaining target frames better. But big differences? Not to my knowledge no. If one system or the other starts trouncing it's competitor in sales, I can see development pipelines switching to favour that systems architecture, which would widen the gap. However, I'll be interested to see how well the XSS sells, because if it outsells the XSX, and even the PS5, a generation that's optimising for that... erm... nice LITTLE system could be horrendous. lol. I do think MS might have played a marketing blinder with the XSX, but find themselves in a situation where the XSS on their side is the system studios optimise for which could hamper the XSX. I hope not, but who knows. I certainly don't.
@Noob_Saibot I actually have to disagree about AC Unity. It wasn't held back by Ubisoft ön PS4, sorry, but it was the legacy engine it used being way more CPU sensitive, which is why the X1 had a slightly better performance in frames. Once they sorted out the engine to work around the limitations of the Jaguar CPUs in both systems performance got quite a bit better.
@thedevilsjester I disagree, I just don't think it's ever moved the needle, it just causes pointless needle between people. As far as I'm concerned both systems will be well supported, both have advantages over the others, and it really does at the end of the day come down to more about what either company does, than how many people post negative or positive comments about either on Push Square, Reddit or wherever.
@Jarobusa I just wish people who don't know about the tech in both machines would just stop talking about it like they do. The amount of times I hear people talk about the PS5's I/O or the XSX velocity architecture like they know what either mean and get it horridly wrong is growing increasingly annoying. The biggest difference between both systems is actually the I/O. If my code compiles really well in Kraken on the PS5 I can get my entire game up and running in under a second on it. If I do the same on the XSX I'd be lucky to fill the allocated RAM in about 6 seconds. That might not sound like a huge difference to a human, but to a computer that measures time in thousandths of a second, it's an eternity. I really, really like both systems, and I think both have done a great job, I just wish gamers would just wait, instead of talking utter BS. We had the same thing with Dirt 5 was it? Going to be 120 fps on XSX, no way PS5 could do that, then they confirmed it would. Funny that.
@Jarobusa you didn't answer any of my questions did you. You see I know the answers, because I'm having conversations on an almost hourly basis right now from software engineers who are trying to optimise bits of code I've helped write on both systems. Your metrics are meaningless, for instance despite the fact that both systems will claim to sort coherency out for you on their GPU side, they're unsurprisingly not so great at it. So I can tell you now, maintaining coherency in parallel across 36 CUs is way easier than 52. Just like it was on the PS4 X1 generation. Secondly both have 64 ROPs which in crude terms are the things that fling pixels to your screen, one system is running those 64 ROPs at 1.825 GHz the other is running them at 2.235 GHz, which do you think has the better pixel fill rate?
How many priority levels do both the XSX and PS5 for memory pipeline?
How many ROPs do both systems have?
How much L2 and L3 cache is available to each compute unit on both system?
How does each system deal with junk data in said cache, do they have custom scrubbers for instance?
How are the various shaders utilised on each GPU for both systems, do either deal with geometry or culling in unique ways?
How are BVH calculations dealt with within the CUs, is it wrapped up with the TMU, or are they accelerated on separate units?
How is I/O handled on both systems? Does the system handle data transfer blind to the coder, or does the coder have to organise priority via the systems API?
Because here's the thing my friend, all of those things have a far greater impact on how a system performs than a simple and exceedingly crude calculation of ALU. Sure, both Sony and Microsoft have based their APUs on AMD tech, last generation the PS4 had 50% more compute on the GPU side of things, but what really gave the PS4 it's ultimately slim advantage were the greater number of asynchronous compute units, single pool of RAM and better data management, not the TFLOPs advantage.
@thedevilsjester it really is as simply as that. Both have marketing teams with hundreds of millions of dollars to splash on convincing people to buy there stuff. You and I argued over corporate strategy on an echo chamber of at best a couple thousand people is meaningless. Neither of us on here, are going to swing the needle in either sides favour in any way shape or form with our witty repartee, or amazing technical insight or rhetorical skill. Plus why should we? We're not being paid to do it, and I don't feel the need to justify my choices to others. Just don't get it.
@Chryssy75 I just have no clue as to what the hell goes through people's heads. Sony have been so far ahead this generation with devkits and SDK updates, and just general dissemination of information. The APIs on Sony's side, more or less, are more mature as well. I've long since given up explaining that both are on fairly robust health prior to launch this time around, despite a pandemic, compared to last generation. If AC Valhalla isn't 4K 60fps on PS5 I'll be shocked. Ubisoft was very, very keen to target system parity on their games, insanely so actually, often to the point that they left performance on the table on one system or another.
Good lord, all this console war BS is still going on? What the hell? I do not get why people are so concerned about "fighting" for either brand, Xbox or PlayStation. I think you're all doing the consumer thing wrong, they should be fighting for us. Jeez.
Any way, Sony doing this PSVR thing has sent a message to a number of audiences, most notably developers... they ain't going anywhere in the VR space and are here to stay. We expect PSVR2 to be a "thing" and I think Sony being willing to continually push PSVR, and fund games like Iron Man is actually quite an important statement of intent. Sony have way more audiences than hardcore gamers, which ironically their launch line up for the PS5 shows beautifully.
As to PS5 news? Sony still have a lot they need to communicate. No arguments from me. Until very recently (yesterday) Microsoft were in the same boat. We need to see the promised teardown. The UI showcase we were promised. We need to see more gameplay from their games. We need to know what the launch games are... and of course the big ones, price and date. Could Sony give us all that info in one big blow out? Maybe they'll have too, because they're running out of time to drip feed it us. They do need to make a move soon though, because people are clearly turning sour.
@Royalblues the industry has changed a lot, the teams have got way bigger, so each voice in a studio has less chance of being heard. There are fewer studios out there now too. All in all I think the industry from a creative perspective isn't in a very healthy place. I think the cost of developing new games is stifling the industry a little, but I'm not sure reducing costs will bring back the creative freedom and breadth of games being made. Publishers don't want some of your money some of the time any more for a good product, they want all of your money all of the time for mediocre cookie cutter product. I hope this generation changes that, towards the end of the PS4 we've seen some publishers take tentative risks at branching out their portfolios a little, but we'll see.
I really do not think either Sony or Microsoft were waiting for the other to go first. Microsoft hit their target price range they set out two years ago to third party publishers. If Sony hit theirs, which leaks from manufacturing costs suggest they should, then Sony will be fine. The PlayStation division has a massive war chest from the PS4, the attached software rate of the PS4 is the best in console history, and I'm pretty certainly they're in a healthy position. The only thing Microsoft have done that might make Sony consider things is the payment plan stuff. Otherwise I think Microsoft are exactly where Sony expected them to be. If Sony undercut Microsoft on the XSX and try getting close to the XSS with the Digital Edition, it's because that was always the plan. Sony do have a lot of things they need to get out to consumers now, so I expect them to start showing their hand soon, if they don't, then sure, panic. However, they knew the cards they were dealt when they started fabricating their APUs, and they chose to double production, so I think they're feeling fine. To wrap up though, Microsoft have delivered and executed their plan, they think the XSS will outsell the XSX 3 to 1 in the first two years, so those saying the XSS isn't a factor don't understand where a good chunk of the market is.
Comments 834
Re: Guess the Launch Prices of These PlayStation Products
9 out of 10, curse you PSP Go. What's interesting to me is just how much of an outlier price wise the PS3 was.
Re: PS5 Showcase Event Confirmed for This Wednesday
@eddie429 the PAX event now makes so much more sense now there's an event two days earlier. It also means that come TGS they might have even more to show. Maybe this is the beginning of Sony's marketing campaign proper. I hope so.
Re: PS5 Showcase Event Confirmed for This Wednesday
@eddie429 think you're right, seems like they're gearing up to show launch line up, price and launch date, and I think that's what most people want to see.
Re: PS5 Showcase Event Confirmed for This Wednesday
What's the betting it's 30 minutes of Knack 3 and 10 minutes of Godfall? Joking. It's got to be launch date, launch price and launch games surely? Maybe that means the PAX event is the teardown / UI stuff.
Re: Sony Has a Mystery Event Planned for PAX Online Next Week
@dr_lovejoy those are all fair points, and the initial batches I'm certain they'll be shipping by air freight too probably. However, many of those costs would have been the same for previous generations too, notably the PS4 and PS4 Pro, which at launch had similar cost of parts to the PS5 supposedly. Those both launched at $399.99. Obviously that's not indicative of what they'll do now, as times change. On the SSD though I'd have thought there was scope to use whatever they've developed in other products like Enterprise Servers, but on that, and to be honest cost of system I'm way, way out of my comfort zone. Just confused me as to why people think the PS5 is automatically going to cost way more than the XSX, given the cost of parts for that machine were supposedly higher than the PS5 costs. Of course all of this is speculation from articles on news sites that might not be accurate.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@Cybrshrk nope, not going to post any LinkedIn or Glassdoor profiles. People either take it at face value or are free to think I'm full of it. Doesn't faze me one way or the other.
As to your iPhone theory, I think you are right. I think Microsoft are looking at Xbox Series Y and Z further down the line, maybe a couple of years and upgrade you via your finance plan of choice. I think generations always annoyed Microsoft, they got into consoles to promote their Direct 3D API, and to stave off any potential competitors from the console space emerging. On that score job done. Whatever is next for the Xbox Division, right now it doesn't look like a new generation in 5 to 6 years time.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@eddie429 I'm currently not working, I'm between projects. Handed off my work fully about 2 months ago. Still answering the odd question via email, but been twiddling my thumbs for a while now. Ironically going back fully around the start of November.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@Redflame I think you have to apply for it from Sony at launch.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@GamingFan4Lyf the thread is full of Tweets from developers working at id, Remedy, Dice etc. etc. etc.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@GamingFan4Lyf I have worked with both systems SDKs. In terms of geometry, or say destruction of environments the Series S will potentially hold it's bigger brother back. Those things do not scale in a linear way. Sure, you could do maybe similar things by using heavy amounts of billboarding for draw distance, or pre-bake the destruction, but both fundamentally require different development pipelines, and that's my worry. The RAM in the XSS is the issue. It's not enough, and the bandwidth isn't high enough either. Ports from PS360 era to the Switch should be easy, because the Switch is quite frankly a better system, but taking the Witcher 3 as the best example, or maybe Doom 2016, those required different development teams to approach those games in different ways. When one company (Sony) is trying to help studios reduce costs and speed up development and the other (Microsoft) is putting barriers in the way of that... well... there's going to be animosity. I love the XSX for the record, just wished they'd plumped for better RAM.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@GamingFan4Lyf try this thread:
https://twitter.com/firstadopter/status/1304052502468403201?s=19
They already have.
Re: Kena: Bridge of Spirits Delayed to Early 2021 on PS5, PS4
Feel sorry for Ember Labs but given the situation I can understand their decision. Release it when it's ready.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@GamingFan4Lyf as someone who does this for a living yeah we will.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
For those saying Devs won't have a problem, there's this Twitter thread:
https://twitter.com/firstadopter/status/1304052502468403201?s=19
I'm certain some of the software engineers will be asked to delete some of their Tweets by higher ups.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@thedevilsjester I don't know about Kinnect type situation, but the XSS is unwelcome. I think a lot of people I know hope the PS5 is a sort of PS2 run away success and they can essentially ignore Xbox this gen, because it's not an ideal situation. It mostly the RAM, but the GPU also presents an issue for some, in particular it's clock. Some calculations like happening at speed, slow them down and you have an issue.
Re: Sony Has a Mystery Event Planned for PAX Online Next Week
@leucocyte indeed the XSS, probably damages the PS4 more, but the PS4 slim is apparently like $40's to make and the PS4 Pro is apparently $178's to make. Me? If I'm Sony I kill the PS4 Pro, and keep selling the PS4 Slim for $99's.
I also think Sony need to do something with PS Now and PS+. But that's probably a problem for another day.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
PS. I already know smaller teams who are considering not launching on Xbox this generation until they drop the requirement to launch on S as well.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@GamingFan4Lyf you do not target the higher spec system and scale back. That's just not how development works. You target lowest common denominator so you're not giving yourself an impossible headache when trying to "scale down". Sorry, but I don't listen to any of the rubbidh coming from MS about development, because the people talking are not devs and have never been devs.
Re: Sony Has a Mystery Event Planned for PAX Online Next Week
@Kopite I'd like to point out at this juncture in the discussion that when the PS4 launched the parts cost $432's... it launched at $399.99. When the PS4 Pro launched it cost $450's to manufacture... it launched at $399.99. The rumoured cost of the PS5's are apparently $428's (which I assume is for the Digital edition) and $450's (which I assume is for the standard edition), so I would love someone to explain to me in detail why Sony can't hit a $499.99 price point like the XSX. To be honest going on past behaviour and Sony's willingness to eat a loss per unit at launch, why they couldn't hit $399.99 for the standard edition, and $349.99 for the digital edition. I'm genuinely waiting for someone to convince me why the company with a gaming division that has made billions up on billions this generation isn't the one with the war chest, but the company that lost billions and billions can. The XSX parts cost is rumoured to be $525's, so I'm just baffled as to why with cheaper manufacturing costs, which will have come down further since Sony's decision to double production, why they couldn't at the very least match the XSX price with the PS5 SE.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@GamingFan4Lyf as a developer, with over 20 years experience I can tell you pixels do not scale in the same way as geometry. The RAM situation in the XSS is a problem. It's not about 4K textures, it's about other things which don't scale in a linear direction. As a developer I hate that the XSS exists, hate it. I understand it from a consumer perspective, but it will hold the generation back.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@GamingFan4Lyf well somebody ought to tell Microsoft games aren't just about pixel fill rate. Sure, if I'm running lower resolutions I might be able to get away with lower geometry models, but that's not linear in the same way. Ditto physics and other things. The XSS is a bottleneck on the next-gen pipeline, no question, but I'm sure we'll all get used to it, it will however ironically mean PS5 exclusives will have an advantage XSX exclusives won't... they won't be held back.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@Akimi a computer one.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@Matroska I have, I've got a game up and running on it. I think the limited number of XSX Dev kits in the wild might be the problem. Teams need them to get their games finished, not to produce video reels of what their currently unfinished games look like. There are more PS5 Dev kits in the wild. I'm just spit balling, but honestly it's not some conspiracy as far as I know.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@Matroska don't worry about software running on XSX, please, it's weird to me, mainly because getting something up and running on it isn't all that hard. Why they aren't showing stuff running on it I don't know, but it's not because it's rubbish, or at least from what I've seen it's not.
Re: Sony Has a Mystery Event Planned for PAX Online Next Week
@Juanalf why? Honestly, why? They were toast given Microsoft way too much free air time Sony were done, blah, blah, blah... Then June event comes around and bam. They can easily do the same. Sorry, but the moment Sony announces anything, and I mean anything the news switches to them. I would like to know more personally, but fundamentally I think Sony will ultimately handle it well, their marketing team is one of the very best out there.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
@Jarobusa I can actually answer that question, it's USB C.
Re: PS5 Comes with Display Stand, Other Box Contents Confirmed
Microsoft: here's the XSX, it costs $299.99 and the XSX costs $499.99, and both will launch globally November 10th.
Sony: The PS5 comes with a stand.
Seriously, their trolling game is strong this generation. Well played Sony, well played.
Re: Sony Has a Mystery Event Planned for PAX Online Next Week
@eddie429 honestly? I was told week of TGS was Sony's plan. Doing something at PAX? Like a big reveal? I don't know, doesn't "seem" like that's how Sony would handle a major announcement about the PS5. Just saying.
Re: Sony Has a Mystery Event Planned for PAX Online Next Week
If it's PS5 related I'd not be too surprised, but I'm not exactly holding my breath. I would think maybe the teardown? Ah who knows what Sony are up to these days.
Re: PS4 Boxes Will Have PS5 Upgrade Banner for Compatible Games
@Shepherd_Tallon I think they're not going to budge from their schedule, and I was told they'd do stuff around TGS 2020, which starts the 23rd September and runs to the 27th. So maybe something the day before the show? Who knows.
Re: PS4 Boxes Will Have PS5 Upgrade Banner for Compatible Games
@Shepherd_Tallon Sony are a tech company too, the amount of tech patents they own is pretty insane, I think people forget Sony are one of the world's largest consumer electronics companies too. We'll see soon enough what Sony have got, but right now Microsoft have executed their plan well.
Re: The Panzer Dragoon Remake Will Come to PS4 Soon
@phil_j exactly, Panzer Dragoon Saga is one of the best JRPGs from that generation. I'd love to see a remake of that game.
Re: PS4 Boxes Will Have PS5 Upgrade Banner for Compatible Games
@Shepherd_Tallon well the costs to manufacture the PS5, before they doubled production was rumoured to be either $428's or $450's. That's not including shipping. On average though Sony have eaten a 15% loss on hardware at launch, the PS3 bumps that a bit, but even if you remove it you still get them eating an average of 12% costs. So I can see the digital hitting around $399.99 fairly comfortably actually. The PS5 SE is the interesting one, by doubling production though they could've brought unit costs way down, I mean at that volume fabrication at TSMC is going to lead to massive savings on their APU, and unlike Microsoft they're producing one APU spec, not two. I think they might have wiggle room.
Re: PS4 Boxes Will Have PS5 Upgrade Banner for Compatible Games
@Shepherd_Tallon of course competition is good, you could argue the reason the XSS even exists and the XSX is as cheap as it is, is because they really need to compete with Sony this time round. I have no issue with the concept of smart delivery, as much as I do the BS marketing spiel. It's cross buy in concept, but it's very good Microsoft have pushed it this generation. Honestly though? Sony were targeting a price range between $349.99 and $499.99 for the PS5, and I think they'll get I side that comfortably. I think both have executed their plans fairly well this time. The parts costs for the PS5 are lower than the XSX, so if the PS5 is more than the XSX Sony are making money on it.
Re: PS4 Boxes Will Have PS5 Upgrade Banner for Compatible Games
@Shepherd_Tallon I think in terms of marketing blurb and stuff, the Microsoft PR team is killing it this generation...
Smart Delivery
Velocity Architecture
Neither mean very much in reality, I mean VA is currently an immature API that's targeted textures mostly, not much on the "hardware" side of things. But both do sound good and people sure do like posting about them.
Re: Immortals Fenyx Rising Can Be Upgraded from PS4 to PS5 for Free
@Fenbops they need to fire the focus group tester who decided to change the name. It is truly awful. Don't like the art direction change either, I much preferred the desaturated colour palette from the reveal with the splashes of over saturated colour, and the almost brush stroke artistic look. I guess I'm not the target audience for this game, which is fine.
Re: Assassin's Creed Valhalla Will Run at 4K, 60FPS on Xbox Series X, No Word on PS5 Version
@Dijon just to be clear I've shot down just as many people talking rubbish about the XSX as well.
Re: Control PS5 Upgrade Controversy Worsens as Owners Accidentally Get Free Access to Ultimate Edition
This really is an example of how not to do things. Well done 505 Games and Remedy.
Re: Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time Remake Confirmed for PS4, Coming January 2021
This is not the remake you are looking for.
*Makes Jedi hand motion.
No I can still see it.
Re: Assassin's Creed Valhalla Will Run at 4K, 60FPS on Xbox Series X, No Word on PS5 Version
@nessisonett I can see a situation where on a game by game basis one or the other has an edge over the other. I can see one having better ray traced shadows, the other doing better in BVH and reflection. One doing better in geometry, the other managing textures and other maps better. I can even see a situation where one, 9 times out of 10 holds a 4K resolution more readily (dynamic resolutions will be a thing this generation as it goes on) as well as maintaining target frames better. But big differences? Not to my knowledge no. If one system or the other starts trouncing it's competitor in sales, I can see development pipelines switching to favour that systems architecture, which would widen the gap. However, I'll be interested to see how well the XSS sells, because if it outsells the XSX, and even the PS5, a generation that's optimising for that... erm... nice LITTLE system could be horrendous. lol. I do think MS might have played a marketing blinder with the XSX, but find themselves in a situation where the XSS on their side is the system studios optimise for which could hamper the XSX. I hope not, but who knows. I certainly don't.
Re: Assassin's Creed Valhalla Will Run at 4K, 60FPS on Xbox Series X, No Word on PS5 Version
@Noob_Saibot I actually have to disagree about AC Unity. It wasn't held back by Ubisoft ön PS4, sorry, but it was the legacy engine it used being way more CPU sensitive, which is why the X1 had a slightly better performance in frames. Once they sorted out the engine to work around the limitations of the Jaguar CPUs in both systems performance got quite a bit better.
Re: Sony's PSVR Reveals This Week Aren't Proving Popular
@thedevilsjester I disagree, I just don't think it's ever moved the needle, it just causes pointless needle between people. As far as I'm concerned both systems will be well supported, both have advantages over the others, and it really does at the end of the day come down to more about what either company does, than how many people post negative or positive comments about either on Push Square, Reddit or wherever.
Re: Assassin's Creed Valhalla Will Run at 4K, 60FPS on Xbox Series X, No Word on PS5 Version
@Jarobusa I just wish people who don't know about the tech in both machines would just stop talking about it like they do. The amount of times I hear people talk about the PS5's I/O or the XSX velocity architecture like they know what either mean and get it horridly wrong is growing increasingly annoying. The biggest difference between both systems is actually the I/O. If my code compiles really well in Kraken on the PS5 I can get my entire game up and running in under a second on it. If I do the same on the XSX I'd be lucky to fill the allocated RAM in about 6 seconds. That might not sound like a huge difference to a human, but to a computer that measures time in thousandths of a second, it's an eternity. I really, really like both systems, and I think both have done a great job, I just wish gamers would just wait, instead of talking utter BS. We had the same thing with Dirt 5 was it? Going to be 120 fps on XSX, no way PS5 could do that, then they confirmed it would. Funny that.
Re: Assassin's Creed Valhalla Will Run at 4K, 60FPS on Xbox Series X, No Word on PS5 Version
@Jarobusa you didn't answer any of my questions did you. You see I know the answers, because I'm having conversations on an almost hourly basis right now from software engineers who are trying to optimise bits of code I've helped write on both systems. Your metrics are meaningless, for instance despite the fact that both systems will claim to sort coherency out for you on their GPU side, they're unsurprisingly not so great at it. So I can tell you now, maintaining coherency in parallel across 36 CUs is way easier than 52. Just like it was on the PS4 X1 generation. Secondly both have 64 ROPs which in crude terms are the things that fling pixels to your screen, one system is running those 64 ROPs at 1.825 GHz the other is running them at 2.235 GHz, which do you think has the better pixel fill rate?
Re: Assassin's Creed Valhalla Will Run at 4K, 60FPS on Xbox Series X, No Word on PS5 Version
@Jarobusa some quick questions for you:
How many priority levels do both the XSX and PS5 for memory pipeline?
How many ROPs do both systems have?
How much L2 and L3 cache is available to each compute unit on both system?
How does each system deal with junk data in said cache, do they have custom scrubbers for instance?
How are the various shaders utilised on each GPU for both systems, do either deal with geometry or culling in unique ways?
How are BVH calculations dealt with within the CUs, is it wrapped up with the TMU, or are they accelerated on separate units?
How is I/O handled on both systems? Does the system handle data transfer blind to the coder, or does the coder have to organise priority via the systems API?
Because here's the thing my friend, all of those things have a far greater impact on how a system performs than a simple and exceedingly crude calculation of ALU. Sure, both Sony and Microsoft have based their APUs on AMD tech, last generation the PS4 had 50% more compute on the GPU side of things, but what really gave the PS4 it's ultimately slim advantage were the greater number of asynchronous compute units, single pool of RAM and better data management, not the TFLOPs advantage.
Re: Sony's PSVR Reveals This Week Aren't Proving Popular
@thedevilsjester it really is as simply as that. Both have marketing teams with hundreds of millions of dollars to splash on convincing people to buy there stuff. You and I argued over corporate strategy on an echo chamber of at best a couple thousand people is meaningless. Neither of us on here, are going to swing the needle in either sides favour in any way shape or form with our witty repartee, or amazing technical insight or rhetorical skill. Plus why should we? We're not being paid to do it, and I don't feel the need to justify my choices to others. Just don't get it.
Re: Assassin's Creed Valhalla Will Run at 4K, 60FPS on Xbox Series X, No Word on PS5 Version
@Chryssy75 I just have no clue as to what the hell goes through people's heads. Sony have been so far ahead this generation with devkits and SDK updates, and just general dissemination of information. The APIs on Sony's side, more or less, are more mature as well. I've long since given up explaining that both are on fairly robust health prior to launch this time around, despite a pandemic, compared to last generation. If AC Valhalla isn't 4K 60fps on PS5 I'll be shocked. Ubisoft was very, very keen to target system parity on their games, insanely so actually, often to the point that they left performance on the table on one system or another.
Re: Sony's PSVR Reveals This Week Aren't Proving Popular
Good lord, all this console war BS is still going on? What the hell? I do not get why people are so concerned about "fighting" for either brand, Xbox or PlayStation. I think you're all doing the consumer thing wrong, they should be fighting for us. Jeez.
Any way, Sony doing this PSVR thing has sent a message to a number of audiences, most notably developers... they ain't going anywhere in the VR space and are here to stay. We expect PSVR2 to be a "thing" and I think Sony being willing to continually push PSVR, and fund games like Iron Man is actually quite an important statement of intent. Sony have way more audiences than hardcore gamers, which ironically their launch line up for the PS5 shows beautifully.
As to PS5 news? Sony still have a lot they need to communicate. No arguments from me. Until very recently (yesterday) Microsoft were in the same boat. We need to see the promised teardown. The UI showcase we were promised. We need to see more gameplay from their games. We need to know what the launch games are... and of course the big ones, price and date. Could Sony give us all that info in one big blow out? Maybe they'll have too, because they're running out of time to drip feed it us. They do need to make a move soon though, because people are clearly turning sour.
Re: Poll: Did You Buy a PlayStation at Launch 25 Years Ago?
@Royalblues the industry has changed a lot, the teams have got way bigger, so each voice in a studio has less chance of being heard. There are fewer studios out there now too. All in all I think the industry from a creative perspective isn't in a very healthy place. I think the cost of developing new games is stifling the industry a little, but I'm not sure reducing costs will bring back the creative freedom and breadth of games being made. Publishers don't want some of your money some of the time any more for a good product, they want all of your money all of the time for mediocre cookie cutter product. I hope this generation changes that, towards the end of the PS4 we've seen some publishers take tentative risks at branching out their portfolios a little, but we'll see.
Re: Reaction: Why Hasn't PS5's Price and Release Date Been Revealed Yet?
I really do not think either Sony or Microsoft were waiting for the other to go first. Microsoft hit their target price range they set out two years ago to third party publishers. If Sony hit theirs, which leaks from manufacturing costs suggest they should, then Sony will be fine. The PlayStation division has a massive war chest from the PS4, the attached software rate of the PS4 is the best in console history, and I'm pretty certainly they're in a healthy position. The only thing Microsoft have done that might make Sony consider things is the payment plan stuff. Otherwise I think Microsoft are exactly where Sony expected them to be. If Sony undercut Microsoft on the XSX and try getting close to the XSS with the Digital Edition, it's because that was always the plan. Sony do have a lot of things they need to get out to consumers now, so I expect them to start showing their hand soon, if they don't, then sure, panic. However, they knew the cards they were dealt when they started fabricating their APUs, and they chose to double production, so I think they're feeling fine. To wrap up though, Microsoft have delivered and executed their plan, they think the XSS will outsell the XSX 3 to 1 in the first two years, so those saying the XSS isn't a factor don't understand where a good chunk of the market is.