@SuperNintendoMii Well Druckman wanted to make a divisive game. He succeeded, now he gotta take the flak. That's just business. When Lenovo changed the Trackpad on the Thinkpads? Or anyone remember Army of Two III? There are plenty of exampels where going against your audiences expectations there's an uproar. Especially true in the music industry (oh, they became mainstream...).
I don't mean that the messages Bailey and Druckmen get are made up. I meant that bringing them to the spotlight is a PR gag, they are victimizing themselves to point the interest of the public eye away from a game that does have it's legitimate problems. Also it's hard to argue against such vile messages. They are revolting and disgusting, so clearly, the fanbase must be toxic. If it's only a tiny percentage of the whole, who cares? Headlines!
What I mean is that everyone gets such messages, who is a public figure. Can you imagine what would happen if Trump would show us his inbox? But it doesn't even need someone as controversial as Trump, people are easily triggered these days and just like you say, until those people outing legitmate threats aren't locked up by the police, things won't change. Too bad that many of the exact same kind of people are those calling to "defund the police".
The world has really turned into a crazy s*ithouse and what we see in online discourse, entertainment and media is NOT the problem, it's just the symptoms of a rotting society.
@WallyWest Again yes it's selling fast, based on preorders and expections of gamers. But July will be interesting to see. If sales do drop off after the preorders and early adopters then yes it could have done better, just like GTA V keeps selling in the long run. I'm perfectly fine with whatever amount of copies it moves in the end, it's just interesting to see with such a heavily debated title, how it will turn out in the end. Also where are the numbers for North America? You do realize that the numbers shipped don't equal numbers actually sold yes? A really interesting case!
@aVagabond I don't care either way. I just think it's stupid to declare a game a "winner" after the first month of sales. Think GTA V, this thing won't stop selling. For valid reasons.
And again, I don't wish it to burn. I just think it could have been way more successful. Just because you think it's enough... you should know, in any industry, it's never enough. Also I wonder if they hampered a potential part III's success with the stance they took. But time will tell.
Again, personally, I don't care how well it sells. My enjoyment of life is not dependent on the possible misfortune of an already ultra-successful game developer and neither should yours in any way or form.
@SuperNintendoMii I think all of this has nothing to do with the game itself, ND or Sony. It's just the unfortunate times we live in. Look at the world. People are eager to pick up on things that separate us, to hate on each other. No matter what game ND would have made, some people would hate some things about it. I think this is crucial to remember.
Also that Laura Bailey thing. There is no need to discuss if this is acceptable. It's not. But Laura Bailey is not the only celeb and TLOU II is not the only "trigger" for a certain kind of people. The moment you're in the public eye you gotta take the flak that is the "public opinion" and some fringe opinions are rather disgustig.
Bringing 6 selected awful tweets up to artificially "overshadow" all the valid criticism about the game is not a good move imho. Youtubers get death threats, all other celebs get death threats for the most stupid of reasons.
Again, it's disgusting, but it's also "expected" given the world we live in and as a public figure like Laura Bailey, I am sure it's not the first time she's got similar tweets/mails for whatever reason. But coming forward now to chime in into the controversy surrounding the game feels like a dirty PR move to me, to be honest.
@SuperNintendoMii I have seen plenty of react videos, read so many reviews but I never stumbled across homophobia. To me it’s a lame excuse. „Let’s put LGBTQ characters into our product and if people don’t like it for all other valid reasons we can still draw the phobia card.“
Ellie was gay in the first game too. It was a non-issue. The Game was lovely and people fell for the storytelling. Literally no one should care about how other people fictional or real like to mingle. Some like it straight some weird and some even like going in dry! Why would anyone care?
@DualshockInfinit Everything else than the writing and the story, which is devisive and not necessarily bad, depending from where you are coming from and what your standards are, it's a great, atmospheric game. Looks great, sounds great, plays great. Just don't get too attached to any of the characters. To me personally it was a huge disappointment because I wished it was a tonal and literal continuation of the first part.
@SuperNintendoMii July will be interesting. Sales are already dropping off pretty badly, asia hates the game and many shops are sitting on their copies.
I don't wish this to ND and I'm not rubbing my hands when I read that the sales drop. It's just that ND reaps what they saw. They took a risk, now they need own up to it and not go attack their former fanbase for "not getting it" or being "bigots".
I even think this game would have potential to be a full blown action MMORPG, something like a mix of ESO and H1Z1. Would buy, go in dry and not care a bit about the story.
As for TLOU I - it was VERY linear but had a tight story with interesting characters. You all know how I "liked" TLOU II so I won't repeat myself, that said if TLOU II itself was open world, maybe I could have gotten as far away as possible from the main storyline and make up my own!
Well the lore is there, the world is there, why not start with a fresh set of characters and an open world game? There's still plenty to explore in this world!
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L I have to admit, everything that's going for the emotional route will resonate with me for better or worse. While I agree on your sentiment and can see how you can disassociate, I mostly can not.
Even something "pixelated" like "Chrono Trigger" got me on the heart-strings, lol. I even try to not kill animals in any game. I like to "pretend" things have real impact in the game's/movie's own universe so I can experience it fully, immerse myself in it, so to speak.
That also might be the reason why I am generally very critical of sloppy writing or out-of-character moments and deus ex machina situations. If I wouldn't take it seriously, there wouldn't be any point in enjoing entertainment media in the first place for me.
@undercoveragent While I agree I think as long as they don't withhold features from the start, but iterate slowly upon what came before as long as the game is popular, why not? One can easily opt out of the milking if they so choose. GTA V Online had a rocky start to be honest, but since the first few patches it was mostly smooth sailing with SO MUCH content to explore and enjoy. Still selling like hotcakes 7 years on. Amazing stuff!
@Medic_Alert Good points and I do get where you are coming from. It seems things have calmed down a bit and proper discussion is possible. Of course I don't have ownership about anyones fiction. Im just wondering how the series will continue - if at all. I feel that more damage has done than good, but again, that's totally subjective.
And yes, Joel was no good guy. Abby's father was no good guy either, both had understandable and maybe even good intentions and did what they saw as necessary.
Sitll, saving your child and also killing a random strange kid in the hope to cure everyone are BOTH more relatable and complex motives than just pure revenge. I'd have loved if they explored the Joel Abby relationship more. Maybe give Abby somewhat of a more complex mind after Joel saved her and her people, seeing that he also has a good side, just like her.
The game tries so hard to make us believe no one is a hero and forgiveness is stronger than revenge, the only one that doesn't get this message is Abby though. This feels like so many missed opportunities.
But again, not trying to pull anyone over "to my side" but after having binged "The Expanse" on Amazon just a few days ago it again was so crystal clear to me how badly the characters are written in TLOU II, comparatively.
TLOU II is a masterpiece in worldcrafting, sets and gameplay mechancis, no doubt about that.
@Exlee300p Unfortunately hardly anyone dares to speak up in the fear to bite the hand that feeds them, but yes I have too been following all of that really closely. Did you notice how that IGN-writer on Twitter started namecalling and later had to apologize to that one guy because he, as a journalist, didn't even know about that copyright striking affair? Sad state of journalism (of any sort) we have right now.
@Thelegend159 The problem with those strikes was that they hit COUNTLESS channels, potentially endangering the livelihood of even smaller Youtubers in times of Corona without them even showing the leaks, just discussing/reacting to them, without giving away detail. Also, legally, it's not a matter of copyright if you're talking about leaked information.
If my product got leaked I'd release a press statement and if my product wouldn't go completely against the expectations of 80% of my customers I wouldn't even need to lie in that statement to still get them to buy my stuff.
@RazielReaper Thank you for your in-depth answer and I can agree to almost everything you said. Especially about that part that it seems we'd both love more stories, other stories in the same universe, because it's lore-rich and the infected enemies are awesome gameplay-wise. I just wished they'd done that with part II and left Joel's and Ellies legacy alone.
I think another factor that plays into people being so pissed about being "mislead" is that nowadays it seems EVERYTHING is forged, from the news, the ads and we're slowly drifting to the extremes. Some thing is either THE BEST THING in the world or the WORST ever. No more middle ground. That said I've enjoyed your reply and it feels got when a normal conversation doesnt immediately derail into a hatefest!
Well firstly I want to say that I don't get the world anymore. Where I live threats like this are against the law and WILL result in prosecution. On the other hand I get the feeling that people get deplatformed and silenced for far less offenses without any court or law involved just because they went against someones agenda.
Also, Laura Bailey is a public figure, I'm sure she get's all sorts of threats, the occassional stalker and other weirdos - like EVERY celebrity. There is NO discussion about how revolting and disgusting those threats she received are, but the media will paint the picture, that the fanbase of TLOU I is TOXIC and wants an actress dead over a role she played. This is absolutely not true. It's disgusting that people that are not agreeing with a movie or a game get thrown into the same pot with such creatures posting threats against the actress' family (I'm thinking about The Last Jedi and Rose Tico).
But yeah. If you take the millions, you also have to deal with a few lunatics here and there, that is the risk of being in the public eye, unfortunately.
@Taylorzombie Don't fall for that. Everyone agrees that attacking actors about a fictional role with death threats is awful and not justifiable in any way or form. She just brought those six threats forward so they can be thrown in the pot with everyone not liking the game. It's The Last Jedi all over again. A few people attacked Rose Tico actress and she quit her social media about it. So what. If you're in the public eye you also get all the weirdos, but it doesn't mean that everyone who disliked TLOU II want's Laura Baileys kids dead...
@Medic_Alert How people enjoy their stories is very subjective. If I like something, I want more of the same, most people function like that. It's fine to have surprising elements in a story, a new stunning character, a plot twist. I love things like that. But I don't like having taken away the ONE THING I would have bought a product for without warning or even being tricked into believing I would get A and then get B.
But again, it's very subjective how people "digest" things like that and I can see and understand that some people like what TLOU II did with it's story.
Yes I saved my money, but watched the entire game being played on life stream, so I am aware of the absolutely stunning graphics, the similar-to-the-first-game but well refined combat, the awesome environments and also the whole story, character development, pacing issues and all cutscenes.
Also the moral behind someones actions is also very subjective. I feel that Joel that what he did to surivive and ultimately take care of someone else, which is - to me - something very noble. Also he rescued his child from being murdered. I can relate to that. Holding a grudge over 4 years and becoming a cold killing machine that seems to enjoy this horrific world is not.
I do enjoy seeing where other people are coming from and it's a breeze of fresh air to not get namecalled immediately because I didn't like TLOU II. Thank you for that.
@Medic_Alert People may and will have different opinions but I personally took offense by the way they inserted Joel into that trailer and actually aged him to make it look like they will both go on an adventure in this game together.
If they wanted to hide the plot they could just have not shown Joel at all, make a completely different trailer that's not consisting of altered scenes from the actual game or show footage of the flashbacks.
This WAS misleading. If people get the impression the game is about an adventure of Ellie and Joel because even the Devs make it look like this and this is the reason why you buy it, of course you will feel betrayed when you realize the truth. I think this is a case for the court and personally I'm glad that some a-hole leaked the footage pre-release so I could save my 60 bucks.
I replayed TLOU I lately though. Still one of my absolute favorite games ever and I'm perfectly fine with it not having any sequel!
@RazielReaper I guess it's too early to judge either way. I hated how Sony and ND handled this whole affair, with the wrong copyright strikes, questioning review pages that didn't give a 10/10, the crunch, misleading trailers, story right out of a college essay, etc. still I don't want it to fail just for being butthurt. ND took a risk - which is rare these days in any form of media, so I give them that, but they also need to take now whatever comes next.
Also I cannot see part III honestly. I just watched that bit from 2017 were real life Ellie and Joel were giving an emotional guitar play as promo. The hype was unreal, it was heart-touching. What kind of promo would we expect for part III? Abby-bodydouble doing a workout routine to "eye of the tiger" while someone is running trained dogs through a parcour int he background?
I just don't see the chemistry or the magic of any of the surviving characters being able to carry such a huge marketing campaign like Joel and Ellie did.
Minds.com > facebook, parler > Twitter, bitchute > youtube. It could be really simple. Most countries already have perfectly fine and clearly defined laws against discrimination, threatening another person or calling for violence etc. firmly in place, why not just enforce what's actually written in the law instead of some vague mumbo jumbo "house rules" by tech giants clearly designed to control the narrative and shut everything down that doesn't agree with whatever it is that's "accepted opinion" at any given moment.
But, yeah. Social media (as we know it) will soon go anyways.
@rpg2000 I didn't mean anyone's a liar or he can't like violent games. I just wondered how much credibility it is to him ACTUALLY liking/playing it or if he just lending is pal Neil a hand, marketingwise. That's what I was wondering.
@LiamCroft Even if I didn't like where the story went, I have nothing against Abby, just wished they didn't use her to take away what made TLOU I special for me. But even that isn't her fault, technically!
@mrobinson91 Thank you for this indepth-answer. I see your point and from a perspective that TLOU II universe would be real life, I agree. Good deeds or "seemingly" good deeds (or good intentions) don't put you out of harms way later on. That's not how life works. But this is a game, a construct, with a story and a narrative and ND tried to convey a message and in this context, I feel his death was unearned, because if no one is a hero and revenge "out of the gut" is the modus operandi for everyone in this fictional universe you could as well just have a a random different gang parade in and kill everyone "for reasons", regardless of their actions. In a real life setting, sure this could happen, but in a carefully crafted piece like a videogame I find this kind of storytelling "sloppy". But that's just a personal preference.
Joel was a carefully crafted character and killing him for shock value, without someone "taking his place" narratively I think was a mistake. A waste. Again, personal opinion, I don't see Abby or anyone from the new cast coming close to be able to leave a legacy of Joel and Ellie of the first game.
The story that was told, may not be bad per se, but telling it on the cost of the Joel & Ellie dynamic... I don't know. I guess I'd have preferred just more stories with different people in the same TLOU universe and have Ellie and Joel as cameos.
I read a lot that "Joel got what he deserved". Here's another take: Joel already got f-ed over when he lost his daughter, he already was "lost" and did despicable things but redeemed himself by taking care of Ellie. By the point he should sacrifice her to a possible cure for society (yet no one knows how the Fireflies would have handled distribution) Ellie was his daughter. His child. In my opinion, he did what every sane father would have done: rescued his daughter. By doing so, Abby's father "got in the way". I see Joel's motives as much more noble and humane than Abbys simple revenge plot. Holding a grudge that bad for years, I can only figure how deranged she must be. That said, I felt the end of Joel felt unearned as I thought he already "undid" the shady stuff he had to do to survive by taking care of Ellie. I'm pretty sure Abby's group has lost loved members throughout the years (between the end of TLOU and current events) to other parties as well - did they go on a revenge plot for each one of them too? Thoughts?
@mrobinson91 I’m asking a question out of genuine interest how players took it (Ellie killing abbys dog in a qte) and you think I’m not here for a discussion? You didn’t even notice the scene - it’s really hard to miss. Strange.
@Cloud39472 Fair enough - but I didn't do so for my very first comments. I guess I just got bitter. It said "Ellie and Joel" on the can but we got something different, even Druckman publically admitted how they swapped skins and lines for the trailers to bait people. That's why I am bitter I guess.
It's easy to understand why the first game pops up again! Still have my copy for PS3, recently I checked it's value on the momox app (reselling videogames and books) and it's value tripled! che che che...
@ankehuber Each and everyone should have their choice of how to play their racing game - but that means that choice needs to be there in the first place. Playing racing games with a more "casual" approach and ruleset is totally fine. But there's plenty racing games without pitstops and tyrewear to choose from, but only a handful of "simlikes". I love the franchise so for me it's a definite disappointment and a loss!
What the heck? Project Cars 1 was crowdfunded and I was an original backer - those exact same things were always on the highest wanted list in the forums. What made the previous 2 games great was the plethora of options. If you didn't like "realistic racing" you could dial back the physics, get some rubber banding in there for close races and omit pitstops.
Removing all those sim-features alltogether will have Project Cars 3 vanish in the swamp of "soso-racing games" - just as it was becoming a third option for console players to Gran Turismo and Forza.
Guess that quick dollar needs to be made. Fan backlash ensured.
Seeing all the hate the game gets most people are wondering how people "who have never played it" can get so spiteful, I just keep wondering how everyone's standards could get so low.
Nasty news about crunch hours and Mr. Druckmans inflated ego, misleading marketing, abusing the copyright system on social media, providing a story with a stupid conclusion (yes I get the message, cycle of violence, only that Abby get's a pass and leaves the scene with Lev and all her fingers, while Ellie loses everything) and calling it a masterpiece.
I see a far deeper concern here, while I can perfectly accept that TLOU II is a gut wrenching, well made (production wise) game that, existing in a vacuum can provide thrilling and even fun gameplay (despite the bleak world) It's worrysome to me, that obviously the finer nuances of storytelling of the first part have not much value in a "loud" world today anymore, where going for pure shock value, sacrificing lovingly and carefully crafted characters in the process to many people is the only thing left to get an emotional response to.
I got enough flak for voicing my opinion, which again is really troublesome. Not realizing what treasure you had with Joel and Ellie, especially as a new IP and then sacrificing them for shock value... no wonder there are no DLC plans and I doubt there's TLOU III on the horizon anytime soon, or ever. This franchise unfortunately is done and most people giving it 10/10 now will play something else in a week's time and never look back.
Do people even read books anymore? I mean... good books, without pictures? Would give some reference to story telling. But if it has to be "moving pictures" I recommend "The Expanse", especially Season 2 and onwards for absolutely awesome character writing and development.
Comments 1,216
Re: PlayStation Store Sales Charts: The Last of Us 2 Is June's Most Downloaded PS4 Game
@WallyWest Both of which did have a 30-40% sales dropoff in the second week after release, whereas TLOU II sits at 80%.
Re: Guide: Best PS4 Racing Games
Wish someone would revive BLUR franchise.
I enjoy fun-racers and sim-racers alike.
Re: PlayStation Store Sales Charts: The Last of Us 2 Is June's Most Downloaded PS4 Game
@SuperNintendoMii Well Druckman wanted to make a divisive game. He succeeded, now he gotta take the flak. That's just business. When Lenovo changed the Trackpad on the Thinkpads? Or anyone remember Army of Two III? There are plenty of exampels where going against your audiences expectations there's an uproar. Especially true in the music industry (oh, they became mainstream...).
I don't mean that the messages Bailey and Druckmen get are made up. I meant that bringing them to the spotlight is a PR gag, they are victimizing themselves to point the interest of the public eye away from a game that does have it's legitimate problems. Also it's hard to argue against such vile messages. They are revolting and disgusting, so clearly, the fanbase must be toxic. If it's only a tiny percentage of the whole, who cares? Headlines!
What I mean is that everyone gets such messages, who is a public figure. Can you imagine what would happen if Trump would show us his inbox? But it doesn't even need someone as controversial as Trump, people are easily triggered these days and just like you say, until those people outing legitmate threats aren't locked up by the police, things won't change. Too bad that many of the exact same kind of people are those calling to "defund the police".
The world has really turned into a crazy s*ithouse and what we see in online discourse, entertainment and media is NOT the problem, it's just the symptoms of a rotting society.
Re: PlayStation Store Sales Charts: The Last of Us 2 Is June's Most Downloaded PS4 Game
@WallyWest Again yes it's selling fast, based on preorders and expections of gamers. But July will be interesting to see. If sales do drop off after the preorders and early adopters then yes it could have done better, just like GTA V keeps selling in the long run. I'm perfectly fine with whatever amount of copies it moves in the end, it's just interesting to see with such a heavily debated title, how it will turn out in the end. Also where are the numbers for North America? You do realize that the numbers shipped don't equal numbers actually sold yes? A really interesting case!
Re: PlayStation Store Sales Charts: The Last of Us 2 Is June's Most Downloaded PS4 Game
@aVagabond I don't care either way. I just think it's stupid to declare a game a "winner" after the first month of sales. Think GTA V, this thing won't stop selling. For valid reasons.
And again, I don't wish it to burn. I just think it could have been way more successful. Just because you think it's enough... you should know, in any industry, it's never enough. Also I wonder if they hampered a potential part III's success with the stance they took. But time will tell.
Again, personally, I don't care how well it sells. My enjoyment of life is not dependent on the possible misfortune of an already ultra-successful game developer and neither should yours in any way or form.
Re: PlayStation Store Sales Charts: The Last of Us 2 Is June's Most Downloaded PS4 Game
@SuperNintendoMii I think all of this has nothing to do with the game itself, ND or Sony. It's just the unfortunate times we live in. Look at the world. People are eager to pick up on things that separate us, to hate on each other. No matter what game ND would have made, some people would hate some things about it. I think this is crucial to remember.
Also that Laura Bailey thing. There is no need to discuss if this is acceptable. It's not. But Laura Bailey is not the only celeb and TLOU II is not the only "trigger" for a certain kind of people. The moment you're in the public eye you gotta take the flak that is the "public opinion" and some fringe opinions are rather disgustig.
Bringing 6 selected awful tweets up to artificially "overshadow" all the valid criticism about the game is not a good move imho. Youtubers get death threats, all other celebs get death threats for the most stupid of reasons.
Again, it's disgusting, but it's also "expected" given the world we live in and as a public figure like Laura Bailey, I am sure it's not the first time she's got similar tweets/mails for whatever reason. But coming forward now to chime in into the controversy surrounding the game feels like a dirty PR move to me, to be honest.
Re: PlayStation Store Sales Charts: The Last of Us 2 Is June's Most Downloaded PS4 Game
@SuperNintendoMii I have seen plenty of react videos, read so many reviews but I never stumbled across homophobia. To me it’s a lame excuse. „Let’s put LGBTQ characters into our product and if people don’t like it for all other valid reasons we can still draw the phobia card.“
Ellie was gay in the first game too. It was a non-issue. The Game was lovely and people fell for the storytelling. Literally no one should care about how other people fictional or real like to mingle. Some like it straight some weird and some even like going in dry! Why would anyone care?
Re: PlayStation Store Sales Charts: The Last of Us 2 Is June's Most Downloaded PS4 Game
@DualshockInfinit Everything else than the writing and the story, which is devisive and not necessarily bad, depending from where you are coming from and what your standards are, it's a great, atmospheric game. Looks great, sounds great, plays great. Just don't get too attached to any of the characters. To me personally it was a huge disappointment because I wished it was a tonal and literal continuation of the first part.
Re: PlayStation Store Sales Charts: The Last of Us 2 Is June's Most Downloaded PS4 Game
@SuperNintendoMii July will be interesting. Sales are already dropping off pretty badly, asia hates the game and many shops are sitting on their copies.
I don't wish this to ND and I'm not rubbing my hands when I read that the sales drop. It's just that ND reaps what they saw. They took a risk, now they need own up to it and not go attack their former fanbase for "not getting it" or being "bigots".
Re: The Last of Us 2 Could Have Been Open World
I even think this game would have potential to be a full blown action MMORPG, something like a mix of ESO and H1Z1. Would buy, go in dry and not care a bit about the story.
As for TLOU I - it was VERY linear but had a tight story with interesting characters. You all know how I "liked" TLOU II so I won't repeat myself, that said if TLOU II itself was open world, maybe I could have gotten as far away as possible from the main storyline and make up my own!
Re: The Last of Us 2 Could Have Been Open World
Well the lore is there, the world is there, why not start with a fresh set of characters and an open world game? There's still plenty to explore in this world!
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L I have to admit, everything that's going for the emotional route will resonate with me for better or worse. While I agree on your sentiment and can see how you can disassociate, I mostly can not.
Even something "pixelated" like "Chrono Trigger" got me on the heart-strings, lol. I even try to not kill animals in any game. I like to "pretend" things have real impact in the game's/movie's own universe so I can experience it fully, immerse myself in it, so to speak.
That also might be the reason why I am generally very critical of sloppy writing or out-of-character moments and deus ex machina situations. If I wouldn't take it seriously, there wouldn't be any point in enjoing entertainment media in the first place for me.
Re: Is GTA 5 Getting a VR Mode on PS5?
@undercoveragent While I agree I think as long as they don't withhold features from the start, but iterate slowly upon what came before as long as the game is popular, why not? One can easily opt out of the milking if they so choose. GTA V Online had a rocky start to be honest, but since the first few patches it was mostly smooth sailing with SO MUCH content to explore and enjoy. Still selling like hotcakes 7 years on. Amazing stuff!
Re: Is GTA 5 Getting a VR Mode on PS5?
This game keeps on giving. Easily the best game of the last decade imho. Alone content-wise it's mind boggling.
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
@1_W1NG3D_4NG3L Undeniably, yes.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Medic_Alert Good points and I do get where you are coming from. It seems things have calmed down a bit and proper discussion is possible. Of course I don't have ownership about anyones fiction. Im just wondering how the series will continue - if at all. I feel that more damage has done than good, but again, that's totally subjective.
And yes, Joel was no good guy. Abby's father was no good guy either, both had understandable and maybe even good intentions and did what they saw as necessary.
Sitll, saving your child and also killing a random strange kid in the hope to cure everyone are BOTH more relatable and complex motives than just pure revenge. I'd have loved if they explored the Joel Abby relationship more. Maybe give Abby somewhat of a more complex mind after Joel saved her and her people, seeing that he also has a good side, just like her.
The game tries so hard to make us believe no one is a hero and forgiveness is stronger than revenge, the only one that doesn't get this message is Abby though. This feels like so many missed opportunities.
But again, not trying to pull anyone over "to my side" but after having binged "The Expanse" on Amazon just a few days ago it again was so crystal clear to me how badly the characters are written in TLOU II, comparatively.
TLOU II is a masterpiece in worldcrafting, sets and gameplay mechancis, no doubt about that.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Taylorzombie Im not harassing anyone.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Exlee300p Unfortunately hardly anyone dares to speak up in the fear to bite the hand that feeds them, but yes I have too been following all of that really closely. Did you notice how that IGN-writer on Twitter started namecalling and later had to apologize to that one guy because he, as a journalist, didn't even know about that copyright striking affair? Sad state of journalism (of any sort) we have right now.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Thelegend159 The problem with those strikes was that they hit COUNTLESS channels, potentially endangering the livelihood of even smaller Youtubers in times of Corona without them even showing the leaks, just discussing/reacting to them, without giving away detail. Also, legally, it's not a matter of copyright if you're talking about leaked information.
If my product got leaked I'd release a press statement and if my product wouldn't go completely against the expectations of 80% of my customers I wouldn't even need to lie in that statement to still get them to buy my stuff.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@RazielReaper Thank you for your in-depth answer and I can agree to almost everything you said. Especially about that part that it seems we'd both love more stories, other stories in the same universe, because it's lore-rich and the infected enemies are awesome gameplay-wise. I just wished they'd done that with part II and left Joel's and Ellies legacy alone.
I think another factor that plays into people being so pissed about being "mislead" is that nowadays it seems EVERYTHING is forged, from the news, the ads and we're slowly drifting to the extremes. Some thing is either THE BEST THING in the world or the WORST ever. No more middle ground. That said I've enjoyed your reply and it feels got when a normal conversation doesnt immediately derail into a hatefest!
Re: Industry Rallies Around The Last of Us 2 Voice Actor After Hate Messages Are Revealed
Well firstly I want to say that I don't get the world anymore. Where I live threats like this are against the law and WILL result in prosecution. On the other hand I get the feeling that people get deplatformed and silenced for far less offenses without any court or law involved just because they went against someones agenda.
Also, Laura Bailey is a public figure, I'm sure she get's all sorts of threats, the occassional stalker and other weirdos - like EVERY celebrity. There is NO discussion about how revolting and disgusting those threats she received are, but the media will paint the picture, that the fanbase of TLOU I is TOXIC and wants an actress dead over a role she played. This is absolutely not true. It's disgusting that people that are not agreeing with a movie or a game get thrown into the same pot with such creatures posting threats against the actress' family (I'm thinking about The Last Jedi and Rose Tico).
But yeah. If you take the millions, you also have to deal with a few lunatics here and there, that is the risk of being in the public eye, unfortunately.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Taylorzombie Don't fall for that. Everyone agrees that attacking actors about a fictional role with death threats is awful and not justifiable in any way or form. She just brought those six threats forward so they can be thrown in the pot with everyone not liking the game. It's The Last Jedi all over again. A few people attacked Rose Tico actress and she quit her social media about it. So what. If you're in the public eye you also get all the weirdos, but it doesn't mean that everyone who disliked TLOU II want's Laura Baileys kids dead...
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Medic_Alert How people enjoy their stories is very subjective. If I like something, I want more of the same, most people function like that. It's fine to have surprising elements in a story, a new stunning character, a plot twist. I love things like that. But I don't like having taken away the ONE THING I would have bought a product for without warning or even being tricked into believing I would get A and then get B.
But again, it's very subjective how people "digest" things like that and I can see and understand that some people like what TLOU II did with it's story.
Yes I saved my money, but watched the entire game being played on life stream, so I am aware of the absolutely stunning graphics, the similar-to-the-first-game but well refined combat, the awesome environments and also the whole story, character development, pacing issues and all cutscenes.
Also the moral behind someones actions is also very subjective. I feel that Joel that what he did to surivive and ultimately take care of someone else, which is - to me - something very noble. Also he rescued his child from being murdered. I can relate to that. Holding a grudge over 4 years and becoming a cold killing machine that seems to enjoy this horrific world is not.
I do enjoy seeing where other people are coming from and it's a breeze of fresh air to not get namecalled immediately because I didn't like TLOU II. Thank you for that.
edit: sorry its a bit mixed up, being on mobile
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Dijon That's probably the best way to go about things!
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Medic_Alert People may and will have different opinions but I personally took offense by the way they inserted Joel into that trailer and actually aged him to make it look like they will both go on an adventure in this game together.
If they wanted to hide the plot they could just have not shown Joel at all, make a completely different trailer that's not consisting of altered scenes from the actual game or show footage of the flashbacks.
This WAS misleading. If people get the impression the game is about an adventure of Ellie and Joel because even the Devs make it look like this and this is the reason why you buy it, of course you will feel betrayed when you realize the truth. I think this is a case for the court and personally I'm glad that some a-hole leaked the footage pre-release so I could save my 60 bucks.
I replayed TLOU I lately though. Still one of my absolute favorite games ever and I'm perfectly fine with it not having any sequel!
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@RazielReaper I guess it's too early to judge either way. I hated how Sony and ND handled this whole affair, with the wrong copyright strikes, questioning review pages that didn't give a 10/10, the crunch, misleading trailers, story right out of a college essay, etc. still I don't want it to fail just for being butthurt. ND took a risk - which is rare these days in any form of media, so I give them that, but they also need to take now whatever comes next.
Also I cannot see part III honestly. I just watched that bit from 2017 were real life Ellie and Joel were giving an emotional guitar play as promo. The hype was unreal, it was heart-touching. What kind of promo would we expect for part III? Abby-bodydouble doing a workout routine to "eye of the tiger" while someone is running trained dogs through a parcour int he background?
I just don't see the chemistry or the magic of any of the surviving characters being able to carry such a huge marketing campaign like Joel and Ellie did.
But yeah, seems like I'm alone with my opinion.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@KingPev You're not much of a movie-goer then right?
Re: The Last of Us 2 Outsells the Entire UK Top 10 Combined in June
@Zuljaras It's good to read something that makes sense once in a while!
Re: PlayStation Temporarily Pulls the Plug on Facebook, Instagram Advertising
Minds.com > facebook, parler > Twitter, bitchute > youtube. It could be really simple. Most countries already have perfectly fine and clearly defined laws against discrimination, threatening another person or calling for violence etc. firmly in place, why not just enforce what's actually written in the law instead of some vague mumbo jumbo "house rules" by tech giants clearly designed to control the narrative and shut everything down that doesn't agree with whatever it is that's "accepted opinion" at any given moment.
But, yeah. Social media (as we know it) will soon go anyways.
Re: PlayStation Temporarily Pulls the Plug on Facebook, Instagram Advertising
@Buckychop_Fandom Wonderful summary!
Re: The Last of Us 2 Director Discusses Online Vitriol
Well he got what he asked for: Lot's of preorders and a stellar launch with lots of "emotion" in the fanbase.
Re: Ex-Nintendo Boss Reggie Fils-Aimé Interviews Neil Druckmann on The Last of Us 2
@clvr Unfortunately, everywhere else as well.
Re: Ex-Nintendo Boss Reggie Fils-Aimé Interviews Neil Druckmann on The Last of Us 2
@clvr Ah I see they found another one to hate upon besides me because I didn't like TLOU II unimpressive story!
That aside I find the timing of Reggie coming out as a TLOU II fan curious.
Re: Ex-Nintendo Boss Reggie Fils-Aimé Interviews Neil Druckmann on The Last of Us 2
@rpg2000 I didn't mean anyone's a liar or he can't like violent games. I just wondered how much credibility it is to him ACTUALLY liking/playing it or if he just lending is pal Neil a hand, marketingwise. That's what I was wondering.
Re: Ex-Nintendo Boss Reggie Fils-Aimé Interviews Neil Druckmann on The Last of Us 2
Interesting. I wonder how much truth is to that. Being a Nintendo guy for so long and then enjoying a game about hate, heck why not.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Voice Actor Explains Deleted Abby Flashback Scene
@LiamCroft Even if I didn't like where the story went, I have nothing against Abby, just wished they didn't use her to take away what made TLOU I special for me. But even that isn't her fault, technically!
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
@mrobinson91 Thank you for this indepth-answer. I see your point and from a perspective that TLOU II universe would be real life, I agree. Good deeds or "seemingly" good deeds (or good intentions) don't put you out of harms way later on. That's not how life works. But this is a game, a construct, with a story and a narrative and ND tried to convey a message and in this context, I feel his death was unearned, because if no one is a hero and revenge "out of the gut" is the modus operandi for everyone in this fictional universe you could as well just have a a random different gang parade in and kill everyone "for reasons", regardless of their actions. In a real life setting, sure this could happen, but in a carefully crafted piece like a videogame I find this kind of storytelling "sloppy". But that's just a personal preference.
Joel was a carefully crafted character and killing him for shock value, without someone "taking his place" narratively I think was a mistake. A waste. Again, personal opinion, I don't see Abby or anyone from the new cast coming close to be able to leave a legacy of Joel and Ellie of the first game.
The story that was told, may not be bad per se, but telling it on the cost of the Joel & Ellie dynamic... I don't know. I guess I'd have preferred just more stories with different people in the same TLOU universe and have Ellie and Joel as cameos.
But yeah, wishful thinking.
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
I read a lot that "Joel got what he deserved". Here's another take: Joel already got f-ed over when he lost his daughter, he already was "lost" and did despicable things but redeemed himself by taking care of Ellie. By the point he should sacrifice her to a possible cure for society (yet no one knows how the Fireflies would have handled distribution) Ellie was his daughter. His child. In my opinion, he did what every sane father would have done: rescued his daughter. By doing so, Abby's father "got in the way". I see Joel's motives as much more noble and humane than Abbys simple revenge plot. Holding a grudge that bad for years, I can only figure how deranged she must be. That said, I felt the end of Joel felt unearned as I thought he already "undid" the shady stuff he had to do to survive by taking care of Ellie. I'm pretty sure Abby's group has lost loved members throughout the years (between the end of TLOU and current events) to other parties as well - did they go on a revenge plot for each one of them too? Thoughts?
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
@mrobinson91 I’m asking a question out of genuine interest how players took it (Ellie killing abbys dog in a qte) and you think I’m not here for a discussion? You didn’t even notice the scene - it’s really hard to miss. Strange.
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
How did you people stomach that "mandatory dog scene"? :/
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
@Cloud39472 Fair enough - but I didn't do so for my very first comments. I guess I just got bitter. It said "Ellie and Joel" on the can but we got something different, even Druckman publically admitted how they swapped skins and lines for the trailers to bait people. That's why I am bitter I guess.
Re: UK Sales Charts: The Last of Us Remastered Returns Amid Sequel's Success
Btw... GTA 5. I think there was only one or two weeks where it didn't show up since it's 2013 (!!) release. LOL. Keeps on giving!
Re: UK Sales Charts: The Last of Us Remastered Returns Amid Sequel's Success
It's easy to understand why the first game pops up again! Still have my copy for PS3, recently I checked it's value on the momox app (reselling videogames and books) and it's value tripled!
che che che...
Re: Project CARS 3 Scraps Pitstops, Tyre Wear, and Fuel Usage, But Says It's Still a Simulator
@ankehuber Each and everyone should have their choice of how to play their racing game - but that means that choice needs to be there in the first place. Playing racing games with a more "casual" approach and ruleset is totally fine. But there's plenty racing games without pitstops and tyrewear to choose from, but only a handful of "simlikes". I love the franchise so for me it's a definite disappointment and a loss!
Re: Project CARS 3 Scraps Pitstops, Tyre Wear, and Fuel Usage, But Says It's Still a Simulator
What the heck? Project Cars 1 was crowdfunded and I was an original backer - those exact same things were always on the highest wanted list in the forums. What made the previous 2 games great was the plethora of options. If you didn't like "realistic racing" you could dial back the physics, get some rubber banding in there for close races and omit pitstops.
Removing all those sim-features alltogether will have Project Cars 3 vanish in the swamp of "soso-racing games" - just as it was becoming a third option for console players to Gran Turismo and Forza.
Guess that quick dollar needs to be made. Fan backlash ensured.
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
@Old-Red Charlie Brooker is a living legend!
Re: Talking Point: The Last of Us 2 Spoilers Discussion
Seeing all the hate the game gets most people are wondering how people "who have never played it" can get so spiteful, I just keep wondering how everyone's standards could get so low.
Nasty news about crunch hours and Mr. Druckmans inflated ego, misleading marketing, abusing the copyright system on social media, providing a story with a stupid conclusion (yes I get the message, cycle of violence, only that Abby get's a pass and leaves the scene with Lev and all her fingers, while Ellie loses everything) and calling it a masterpiece.
I see a far deeper concern here, while I can perfectly accept that TLOU II is a gut wrenching, well made (production wise) game that, existing in a vacuum can provide thrilling and even fun gameplay (despite the bleak world) It's worrysome to me, that obviously the finer nuances of storytelling of the first part have not much value in a "loud" world today anymore, where going for pure shock value, sacrificing lovingly and carefully crafted characters in the process to many people is the only thing left to get an emotional response to.
I got enough flak for voicing my opinion, which again is really troublesome. Not realizing what treasure you had with Joel and Ellie, especially as a new IP and then sacrificing them for shock value... no wonder there are no DLC plans and I doubt there's TLOU III on the horizon anytime soon, or ever. This franchise unfortunately is done and most people giving it 10/10 now will play something else in a week's time and never look back.
Do people even read books anymore? I mean... good books, without pictures? Would give some reference to story telling. But if it has to be "moving pictures" I recommend "The Expanse", especially Season 2 and onwards for absolutely awesome character writing and development.
Maybe Neil should watch some of it.
Re: Random: These The Last of Us 2 Reaction GIFs Are Hilarious
Wish the meme guy wrote the story! 😂👌
Re: Naughty Dog Has 'No Plans' for The Last of Us 2 DLC
You don’t say! lol. Let’s move on.
Re: The Last of Us 2 Petition Demands Dramatic Story Alterations
@Gamakazil I also got a PS3, coming from XBOX360 solely for TLOU I. Bought it again as remaster on PS4. Loved it!