Live service games seem to need player access way earlier on than single-player games - if nothing else because the game loop has to be so rock solid and the risks are so high.
Look at Valve - by the time one of their live service games "launches" everyone has already been playing it in closed beta for months.
@Khwarezm89 Moon Channel theorises that this is entirely about Sony's partnership with Palword. He argues this is breaking some Japanese business taboos. And that whilst Sony seems hands-off, it's actually a very similar move to what Nintendo did with Game freak.
This is Nintendo signalling they'll go for the nuclear option if Sony gets on their turf.
I think they're going to struggle to pull off Mass Effect as a TV show. It really needs a high production value.
The background setting bits of Mass Effect is great for a TV show. If they can pull off the genophage in a morally neutral way, it's great material. But I don't know what I'd want from an episode to episode plot? Do I really get excited about a Shepherd action scene?
I read several reviewers say the enemies get very sponge-y. So I'm hoping for a balance up date that changes health a little (and increases danger) rather than having to manually do that
@Waluigi451 if nothing else, making it free to play and let it roll on for a while without much dev support would at least give some people a chance to find a niche. It would make it less a joke, and respect the time the devs put into making a game.
The craziest thing is it's not even like the developers made the worst game in the world. They made a decent game in genre that had no space for 'decent' and was priced in a way which would never work.
The fault is all on Sony's side. For trying to chase a bad genre, for way overbudgeting the game, and for putting it out at a price point that kills it immediately.
The biggest film flops are the John Carter, The Lone Ranger and The Marvels, but all of them made ~$200 million on budgets of $200-300 million (the loss was all in marketing, and ticket sharing with cinemas). The biggest film to make basically nothing back was Eddie Murphie's The Adventure of Pluto Nash on a budget of $100 million.
Spiderman: Turn off the Dark is the biggest Broadway flop, only a budget of $75 million.
Nothing in music is ever going to come close.
Marco Polo, the Netflix show was apparently a $200 million loss, but that's probably the entire budget and doesn't count views, because it's streaming.
None of that comes close to Concord.
The only thing that might beat it is Lord of the Rings (Amazon) cost around $450 million for one season, which is a stupid budget. But LOTR's actual viewing figures were pretty decent, if not compared to the amount they paid.
It'll be fascinating if CoD really can't drive much gamepass adoption.
Although gamepass isn't necessarily a particularly good deal for your typical COD player. Many CoD players only play CoD (and maybe FIFA), and they'll play it year round until the new one.
If you do that, gamepass ultimate will cost you £20 more than just buying the game outright (although PS+ will wipe out the savings). And yeah you get a lot of extras on top, but what's the point of having access to a load of games if you'll never play them ()
() How I mostly feel about game subscription services anyway. Games take up time, I'd like to spend that playing the best games
@nessisonett I'd be happy with more games just picking a canon version and going from there - or even better deliberately going for a third option that fits none of the original pathways exactly. I think some old games and films used to do that.
In terms of interacting with your companions, what is it like on a scale of ME1 (a few set conversations that you can progress as you advance through the game) to ME3 (dedicated companion missions, random companion interactions back at the base, companions interacting with each other back at the base)?
@get2sammyb I'd argue it's normal for a company the size of Microsoft to not know what's it's doing, and that matches their history.
They have so many different people, so many different interests and directions and incentives, and inertia and plans that they get pulled in one direction and another constantly, and they don't have the focus to truly know what they're doing at any one moment.
Did Google know what it was doing when it built 13 separate messaging apps, often competing with each other, and then closed most of them down? Not really.
They had three or four different divisions within Google that independently made decisions to make messaging apps all based on different motives, and the overall direction was created by whichever division the exec on top had happened to be promoted from this time.
Microsoft are free styling it. Nadella himself couldn't tell you what's going to come to PS5 in three years time, because by then he might have changed his mind again
@Medic_alert something like a steam deck seems like the way to go for the next generation. If Sony don't have competition they'll get greedier.
And if most sales are taking place digitally, and the PS6 doesn't ship with a mandatory disc drive, you're entirely in Sony's hands when it comes to game prices and game preservation.
PCs these days get more games, they get indie games much earlier, they've got mods, and they've got multiple store fronts. With Steam decks they even play well on a TV with a controller now.
There has never been more options and more creativity in the AA / indie space than today.
I've been on an indie binge recently and played games so good or beautiful that they'd have been all anyone talked about 10 years ago, and yet I'd never even heard of them.
If the industry is collapsing (outside of AAA) it's because there are way way more good games than the playerbase can support, not the other way round.
@Yagami yet the overall story works. And that's because they fit the linear story structure around the choose 5 mission structure. You get continual updates to the story that trigger after certain numbers of missions of complete.
Another game with the same "choose 5" mission structure that is also considered an all time great is Fallout: New Vegas, which they hide even more cleverly. Each story path will require you to do 3/5 big story events, they tell you to do them in a linear order, differing depending on choices, but this isn't actually necessary - you can still do each region mission in the order you want.
EDIT: Another example of a classic RPG using this structure: Alpha Protocol. Most Obsidian and Bioware games use this structure in some way, in some cases more obscured than others.
@nessisonett I'm still trying to work out who is meant to have had an issue with Wukong. All I've seen is people saying it's cool to have a game based around Chinese culture for once.
Was it like 2 randos on X who have somehow become the most read people in the world?
I can't get excited about any Overwatch collab, because there will never be a skin good enough that I'll pay £20 to get it.
I could buy Citizen Sleeper, Nobody Wants to Die, Guardians of the Galaxy, FFVII Remake, Planet of Lana or tons of other games on my wishlist instead of getting one of these skins.
It's like telling me the weather is good in Tahiti right now. I'm sure it is.
Moore's law is dead. We've run out of technology that can make chips twice as small (and cheap) for the same amount of power.
Tech won't get cheaper the way we've been used to for the last 50 years. That, combined with high inflation is why we're here, and it's not changing any time soon.
My feeling is it's the narrative angle that took Concord down the wrong route. These designs are much better for a hero shooter - but not for making you feel part of a cohesive world.
As InfidelFrigidstraigh said, when the cinematic trailer was showing, people were curious - the designs worked well enough. It's when it was revealed to be 5v5 that things fell apart.
I think the devs overfocused on their lore, and it cost them a lot of the distinctiveness of their designs.
Even if the game is great, Sony are going to need the marketing job of a lifetime to save it. People want it to fail.
They need to market -alongside- single player games, it needs to be F2P, and it needs to be very cheap and generous. And they need to focus on gameplay, not story and cinematics. Story is not how you hook people initially on these big multiplayer games.
I said this before it came out: if it was free to play, I'd have given it a shot but it would have to do something really great to get me away from Overwatch. But at $40, it doesn't even get that shot
It should have been F2P at launch. They wasted their window - something we've already seen more unique games get wrong
Comments 418
Re: Sony Reportedly in Talks to Acquire Elden Ring Dev's Parent Company Kadokawa Corp
Sony already have too much influence in the anime space. This is bad news and will hurt everyone in the long-run
Re: Sony's Had a First-Party PS5, PS4 Game Nominated for Game of the Year Ten Times in a Row
When you count Game of the Year nominations since the new generation started, it's easy to see why Sony have been smashing Xbox
Re: New LEGO Horizon Set Now Official, Includes, Aloy, Varl, and Machines
I thought the Sawtooth in the bottom right picture was a Thunderjaw. They must be saving a large Thunderjaw up for the right time, right??
Re: Capcom Strategy Game Kunitsu-Gami Fails to Meet Sales Targets
This was one where the demo put me off more than it helped
Re: UK Retailers Are All Discounting the PS5 Pro Already
@rjejr John Lewis is the UK's biggest high end department store chain. EE is the UK's largest phone company
Re: You'll Never See This Potential TV Mass Effect Commander Shepard Pick Coming
One of the keys to Mass Effect's appeal is it's special forces flavour. Cena could pull that off. Just don't play Shepherd, be another N7
Re: Dragon Age: The Veilguard Reveals Players' Most Popular Class, Race, and Faction
I went Qunari Warrior Mourn Watch. It's the first time I've enjoyed a warrior in this series
Re: Dragon Age: The Veilguard Reveals Players' Most Popular Class, Race, and Faction
@Kraven SkillUp said his clips were representative of the whole game, but I was pleasantly surprised to find out they really aren't.
Re: Sony Comments on Concord Disaster, Says Game Should Have Been Tested Earlier
Live service games seem to need player access way earlier on than single-player games - if nothing else because the game loop has to be so rock solid and the risks are so high.
Look at Valve - by the time one of their live service games "launches" everyone has already been playing it in closed beta for months.
Re: Nintendo and The Pokémon Company Want to Stop the Sale of Palworld
@Khwarezm89 Moon Channel theorises that this is entirely about Sony's partnership with Palword. He argues this is breaking some Japanese business taboos. And that whilst Sony seems hands-off, it's actually a very similar move to what Nintendo did with Game freak.
This is Nintendo signalling they'll go for the nuclear option if Sony gets on their turf.
Re: Movement from Amazon's Mass Effect TV Series, Fast & Furious 9 Writer Signed
I think they're going to struggle to pull off Mass Effect as a TV show. It really needs a high production value.
The background setting bits of Mass Effect is great for a TV show. If they can pull off the genophage in a morally neutral way, it's great material. But I don't know what I'd want from an episode to episode plot? Do I really get excited about a Shepherd action scene?
Re: Dragon Age: The Veilguard's First PS5 Update Incoming, Adjusts Balance and Fixes Bugs
I read several reviewers say the enemies get very sponge-y. So I'm hoping for a balance up date that changes health a little (and increases danger) rather than having to manually do that
Re: Assassin's Creed Boss Says Series Is Inherently Diverse, Just Like History
@LifeGirl they did choose a real person - Yasuke is a real historical figure (unlike most AC protagonists)
It's also not the first time a protagonist wasn't from the setting of the game (that was Ezio in Assassin's Creed: Revelations)
This isn't even his first videogame. He appeared in both Niohs and Samurai Warriors 5
Re: Labour Union Blasts Sony for Looking to Further Monopoly with Studio Closures
@Flaming_Kaiser it's sarcasm
Re: Labour Union Blasts Sony for Looking to Further Monopoly with Studio Closures
@The_Wailing_Doom ah thanks, that makes sense. Well not sense sense, but I can understand what they thought they were doing
Re: Labour Union Blasts Sony for Looking to Further Monopoly with Studio Closures
That's the key issue of monopolies: Them reducing how much influence they have over other markets
Glad someone is finally ready to fight the real fight
Re: Manga Masterpiece Death Note Becomes Among Us in Online PS5, PS4 Outing
@ATaco Uncover Kira by spamming X and deducing his FACE with your FISTS in this spectacular action-packed adaptation of DEATH NOTE
Re: Concord Cost Sony Over $200 Million, And Didn't Make a Single Cent
@Waluigi451 if nothing else, making it free to play and let it roll on for a while without much dev support would at least give some people a chance to find a niche. It would make it less a joke, and respect the time the devs put into making a game.
Re: PS5, PC Flop Concord Never Returning, Studio Closed Down
The craziest thing is it's not even like the developers made the worst game in the world. They made a decent game in genre that had no space for 'decent' and was priced in a way which would never work.
The fault is all on Sony's side. For trying to chase a bad genre, for way overbudgeting the game, and for putting it out at a price point that kills it immediately.
Re: Concord Cost Sony Over $200 Million, And Didn't Make a Single Cent
@get2sammyb biggest flop in entertainment ever?
The biggest film flops are the John Carter, The Lone Ranger and The Marvels, but all of them made ~$200 million on budgets of $200-300 million (the loss was all in marketing, and ticket sharing with cinemas). The biggest film to make basically nothing back was Eddie Murphie's The Adventure of Pluto Nash on a budget of $100 million.
Spiderman: Turn off the Dark is the biggest Broadway flop, only a budget of $75 million.
Nothing in music is ever going to come close.
Marco Polo, the Netflix show was apparently a $200 million loss, but that's probably the entire budget and doesn't count views, because it's streaming.
None of that comes close to Concord.
The only thing that might beat it is Lord of the Rings (Amazon) cost around $450 million for one season, which is a stupid budget. But LOTR's actual viewing figures were pretty decent, if not compared to the amount they paid.
Re: UK Sales Charts: Call of Duty Remains Steady on PS5, PS4 Despite Black Ops 6's Xbox Game Pass Inclusion
It'll be fascinating if CoD really can't drive much gamepass adoption.
Although gamepass isn't necessarily a particularly good deal for your typical COD player. Many CoD players only play CoD (and maybe FIFA), and they'll play it year round until the new one.
If you do that, gamepass ultimate will cost you £20 more than just buying the game outright (although PS+ will wipe out the savings). And yeah you get a lot of extras on top, but what's the point of having access to a load of games if you'll never play them ()
() How I mostly feel about game subscription services anyway. Games take up time, I'd like to spend that playing the best games
Re: Life Is Strange: Double Exposure (PS5) - Hallmark Series Loses Its Charm
@nessisonett I'd be happy with more games just picking a canon version and going from there - or even better deliberately going for a third option that fits none of the original pathways exactly. I think some old games and films used to do that.
Re: Dragon Age: The Veilguard (PS5) - The Best BioWare Game Since Mass Effect 3
@ShogunRok thanks! These answers are tipping me into the purchase camp
Re: Dragon Age: The Veilguard (PS5) - The Best BioWare Game Since Mass Effect 3
How well does it fulfill the excitement of the sequel hook? If it was still called Dreadwolf, how much would it really earn that name?
Re: Dragon Age: The Veilguard (PS5) - The Best BioWare Game Since Mass Effect 3
In terms of interacting with your companions, what is it like on a scale of ME1 (a few set conversations that you can progress as you advance through the game) to ME3 (dedicated companion missions, random companion interactions back at the base, companions interacting with each other back at the base)?
Re: Microsoft CEO Says More Xbox Games Will Come to PS5, Hours After Rumours Said Porting Project Was Paused
@get2sammyb I'd argue it's normal for a company the size of Microsoft to not know what's it's doing, and that matches their history.
They have so many different people, so many different interests and directions and incentives, and inertia and plans that they get pulled in one direction and another constantly, and they don't have the focus to truly know what they're doing at any one moment.
Did Google know what it was doing when it built 13 separate messaging apps, often competing with each other, and then closed most of them down? Not really.
They had three or four different divisions within Google that independently made decisions to make messaging apps all based on different motives, and the overall direction was created by whichever division the exec on top had happened to be promoted from this time.
Re: Microsoft CEO Says More Xbox Games Will Come to PS5, Hours After Rumours Said Porting Project Was Paused
Microsoft are free styling it. Nadella himself couldn't tell you what's going to come to PS5 in three years time, because by then he might have changed his mind again
Re: Random: Killzone Superfans Want to License the IP from Sony
No harm in it, very much doubt that it would come to anything though
Re: PlayStation, Bungie Still Going Ahead with Internal Live Service Team
@Medic_alert something like a steam deck seems like the way to go for the next generation. If Sony don't have competition they'll get greedier.
And if most sales are taking place digitally, and the PS6 doesn't ship with a mandatory disc drive, you're entirely in Sony's hands when it comes to game prices and game preservation.
PCs these days get more games, they get indie games much earlier, they've got mods, and they've got multiple store fronts. With Steam decks they even play well on a TV with a controller now.
Re: Saber Responds to Space Marine 2 Review Bombing, Promises to Patch Contentious Patch
@DennisReynolds if you only ever buff and never need you end up with silly Time To Kills where everything dies (or kills) faster and faster.
Re: Ex-PlayStation Exec Shawn Layden Says There's Been a 'Collapse' in Gaming Creativity
There has never been more options and more creativity in the AA / indie space than today.
I've been on an indie binge recently and played games so good or beautiful that they'd have been all anyone talked about 10 years ago, and yet I'd never even heard of them.
If the industry is collapsing (outside of AAA) it's because there are way way more good games than the playerbase can support, not the other way round.
Re: TV Show Review: Tomb Raider: The Legend of Lara Croft - Globetrotting Animated Adventure Edges Lara's Arc Forward
I like the art style from what I've seen, I hope the bad CGI bits aren't too frequent.
Re: Aspyr Brings Back Star Wars Episode I: Jedi Power Battles, Out for PS5, PS4 in January
If it's got online co-op, I'm in
Re: Ubisoft Comments on Buyout Reports, Says That It 'Regularly Reviews Options'
@Yagami yet the overall story works. And that's because they fit the linear story structure around the choose 5 mission structure. You get continual updates to the story that trigger after certain numbers of missions of complete.
Another game with the same "choose 5" mission structure that is also considered an all time great is Fallout: New Vegas, which they hide even more cleverly. Each story path will require you to do 3/5 big story events, they tell you to do them in a linear order, differing depending on choices, but this isn't actually necessary - you can still do each region mission in the order you want.
EDIT: Another example of a classic RPG using this structure: Alpha Protocol. Most Obsidian and Bioware games use this structure in some way, in some cases more obscured than others.
Re: Ubisoft Comments on Buyout Reports, Says That It 'Regularly Reviews Options'
@Yagami Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect show that you can have a meaningful linear story with that structure.
It's quite a common story structure for Western RPGs, not just Ubisoft games.
Re: Big Star Wars Outlaws PS5 Update Takes Aim at Stealth, Performance
@nessisonett I'm still trying to work out who is meant to have had an issue with Wukong. All I've seen is people saying it's cool to have a game based around Chinese culture for once.
Was it like 2 randos on X who have somehow become the most read people in the world?
Re: Star Wars Outlaws' Rescue Roadmap Provides a Snapshot of Modern PS5 Gaming
Ubisoft games go cheap fast, and don't have the reputation for quality that pulls me to buy a game at launch.
Most Ubisoft games end up on my wishlist - to see the amazing settings if nothing else - but I can wait years before buying one
Re: Black Myth: Wukong Sales Over 20 Million In a Month, Entering GOAT Territory
Prediction: In 5 years time we're going to see a clumsy Western made Romance of the Three Kingdoms game.
What would actually be hype would be a Legend of the Condor Heroes adaptation.
Re: My Hero Academia Is Going to Tempt You Back to Overwatch 2 on PS5, PS4
I can't get excited about any Overwatch collab, because there will never be a skin good enough that I'll pay £20 to get it.
I could buy Citizen Sleeper, Nobody Wants to Die, Guardians of the Galaxy, FFVII Remake, Planet of Lana or tons of other games on my wishlist instead of getting one of these skins.
It's like telling me the weather is good in Tahiti right now. I'm sure it is.
Re: Bandai Namco's Big Cross-Media Bet Synduality Kickstarts PS5's 2025
The thing about a cross-media plan is you have to make a good show and a good game.
I'm not convinced a mediocre anime is going to bring a big crowd to your extraction shooter
Re: A Massive 75% of UK Game Sales Were Digital Last Month
I bet the distributions are really skewed too - the kind of games bought by physical buyers are different than for digital buyers.
Re: PS5 Exclusives Final Fantasy 16, Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth Failed to Meet Expectations
I don't even know what I want from a Final Fantasy game any more.
Its not that I'm unhappy with them, but when I try to think of my perfect FFXVII, I can't really imagine what that looks or plays like.
Re: PS5 Pro Reveal Is Already Sony's Most Disliked Console Announcement
There's a wider problem that Sony are beginning to lose people's trust.
They've got arrogant, like Sony always gets when it doesn't have enough competition. They need a wake up call to get back on the consumer wavelength
Re: Sony to Start Selling Refurbished PS5 Consoles
Recycling is good for the world, so thumbs up
Re: Talking Point: Is PS5 Pro Way Too Expensive?
Moore's law is dead. We've run out of technology that can make chips twice as small (and cheap) for the same amount of power.
Tech won't get cheaper the way we've been used to for the last 50 years. That, combined with high inflation is why we're here, and it's not changing any time soon.
Re: Freelance Artist Attempts to Redesign PS5, PC Flop Concord's Cast
My feeling is it's the narrative angle that took Concord down the wrong route. These designs are much better for a hero shooter - but not for making you feel part of a cohesive world.
As InfidelFrigidstraigh said, when the cinematic trailer was showing, people were curious - the designs worked well enough. It's when it was revealed to be 5v5 that things fell apart.
I think the devs overfocused on their lore, and it cost them a lot of the distinctiveness of their designs.
Re: Poll: Are You Sold on PS5 Pro?
No, we've only just started getting games which justify a PS5, never mind a £700 PS Pro with no disc drive
Re: Internal Sony Fairgame$ Chatter Is Reportedly Quite Positive
Even if the game is great, Sony are going to need the marketing job of a lifetime to save it. People want it to fail.
They need to market -alongside- single player games, it needs to be F2P, and it needs to be very cheap and generous. And they need to focus on gameplay, not story and cinematics. Story is not how you hook people initially on these big multiplayer games.
Re: Concord PS5, PC Sales Estimates Are Somehow Even Worse Than We Thought
I said this before it came out: if it was free to play, I'd have given it a shot but it would have to do something really great to get me away from Overwatch. But at $40, it doesn't even get that shot
It should have been F2P at launch. They wasted their window - something we've already seen more unique games get wrong
Re: Preview: Cairn PS5 Proves Much More Impressive Than Just a Realistic Version of Only Up
Interested in this. Jusant didn't quite scratch the climbing itch